Tar on my rope

[jblimbwalker]

Did a prune job today and my boss had me fill in a cavity with some roofing tar. My first question is: Has/Does anyone else do this and if so, is it effective?
Upon completion I pulled my friction saver out and wouldn't ya know it, my rope ran through a glob of this stuff. Two week old Hi-Vee and now I have about a 6in. long swipe of tar coating it. Just enough to color the rope, no heavy gunk on it.....which leads me to my second question: Will this harm my rope in any way? Thanks for any replies.

 

[TREETX]

Ssräd, Ssraed- (ßräd)

Don't fill cavities. It is up there with spiking prune jobs. It does nothing for a tree that is good. It can actually create an anaerobic environment for more rot to spread though the heartwood.

Suggest having your boss check into continuing education.

I realize you are one of the enlisted men and not one of the officers in this situation.

 

[jblimbwalker]

Brian: If I cut it at the tar I would be losing around 40 ft. of rope which would make it 110 ft. Albeit, this would be great on the shorties, but I would have to get another 150ft. although here in GA 125ft. is the most common. Guess I'll just make a couple of long lanyards. And concerning my boss being 'old school'....true, but he would never let me gaff a prune job, even when I started working for him and didn't know the first thing about gaff-free climbing, so I guess there's a blend of both schools in his logic. And I do plan on telling him about my 'no more tar' policy.

 

[treeman82]

I have never heard of filling cavities entirely with roofing tar. I believe I have heard of cavities being painted with tar though. I believe that you are not supposed to fill cavities with anything. However if need be you can use expanding foam. That is what I am doing tomorow morning because some squirrels decided to make their home in a sugar maple.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Run the rope through a few natural crotches to see if the tar will wear off.

That is about as bad as running it through a pile of 'coon turds. I done that more then a few times.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Cavity filling

The advantage to filling cavities is it keeps out the critters that damage walls of compatmentalization. As we know, once a CODIT wall is set up, breaking through it will not initiate a second response. So when a carpenter ant chews through the wood which has the chemical barrier, rot now has a free entry point into the once protected wood. Squirrles also like to enlarge their homes, as well as some birds, termites, ect.. This lack of CODIT response to an injured wall is aslo why we don't ever clean out cavities.
Filling holes with concrete was done for years. The problem with it was it wasn't flexable, and trees are. Filling with foam or roofing tar might be an answer, I don't know. The possible problem with causing more decay was mentioned, and it doesn't sound likely to me, but really only research will tell us for sure.
It doesn't seem like roofing tar would be too much more problem than foam.
I have noticed that animals like to chew into the foam filled cavities better than the open ones, perhaps because they are now insulated.
I say fill cavities, take notes, and hopefully you'll be in the business long enough to disect some of these old filled cavities and make observations.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Tar in your rope.

Before you go using anything to clean the tar out, contact the rope manufaturer, they can tell you what is safe.

 

[jblimbwalker]

Did some climbing yesterday and was amazed to discover that my tress cord flowed smoothly past the patch of tar on my rope. After work I applied GoJo to the tar and brushed it into the stain with the fingernail brush that comes with the stuff. I'm going to wash the rope this afternoon at the laundry mat. If this stain removal process doesn't work then I will take the advice of Maas and contact the manufacturer.
A footnote to the cavity: When I tied in above and descended on the cavity to fill it I peeked inside to inspect the depth, etc. I caught sight of fur about two feet down, cautiously peeked in further and saw a mother racoon and two young ones lying on her back. I traced the outside of the circle with a light coating of this crap and didn't even bother trying to put any on the inside of cavity (would've took about 10 gal. of tar ) I hope this tar dried before the coon family decided to leave home. I felt like a complete idiot for doing this. After discussing, with the customer, the damage that had previously been done to this tree, removal has been slated for later this summer if she and the boss can negotiate a price. Full on crane job for this monster southern red oak. Estimated age around 150yrs. I'll have the digital camera that day and will post the pics. Thanks for advice from you guys, I think the rope will be OK, unfortunately, the tree will not.

 

[kf_tree]

i used to keep a few dedicated tar ropes for working from roof tops. when tieing off on roofs they always got tar on them on sunny days as the tar softened.

i never bothered to clean them and i never had a problem. when tar got on a regular line we just used it and the tar wore off on the crotch's.

i'm pretty sure if you contacted the manufacturer, they would tell you to discard the rope. once a petroleum based product has come in contact the rope will degrade. there's been an on going dabate about marking the middle of climbing lines(for rock and ice climbing) with a magic marker. the manufacturer's say it will weaken the rope.

tree ropes get ABUSED. every one looks at that little knick and says "it'll be fine". since your asking about it you must be a little worried. so i say cut it short and buy a new line. come to think of it both my climbing lines have a few small knicks and a flat spot here or there, but they'll be fine.:Eye:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

All my lines have nicks, picks and boogers in them.

I've been told by manufacturers that if 4 entire peices of yarn are severed then the rope should be retired. I've been told by people knowledgeable in ropes that up to seven are still safe. (on 16 strand arbo rope)

No one has answered the question of how many feet between nicks will eliminate the risk from a cut yarn.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Re: Cavity filling

Originally posted by Mike Maas
As we know, once a CODIT wall is set up, breaking through it will not initiate a second response.

Not what i learned. Compartmentalization will begin as discoloration (discolored wood) around where the "wall" was broke. This is also calle a reaction zone. Of course i over simplify, but I will add that breaking the boundries are not good things, we then loose starage area in the tree and a potential loss of structural material.

So when a carpenter ant chews through the wood which has the chemical barrier, rot now has a free entry point into the once protected wood.

Do the ants realy eat good wood? My understanding is that the feed on present decay only and are more of a symbiote then a parasite.

Filling with foam or roofing tar might be an answer, I don't know. The possible problem with causing more decay was mentioned, and it doesn't sound likely to me, but really only research will tell us for sure.

I gotta agree here, maybe wee need someone to make an expanding foam that is unpalettable to the arboreal rodentia

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Re: Re: Cavity filling

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn
Not what i learned. Compartmentalization will begin as discoloration (discolored wood) around where the "wall" was broke. This is also calle a reaction zone. Of course i over simplify, but I will add that breaking the boundries are not good things, we then loose starage area in the tree and a potential loss of structural material.

Once there is an injury to the tree, CODIT discribes the four walls that are set up by the tree. Breaking one of these four walls(after the initial injury) is bad. On the other hand, injuring the tree is not so bad, because this will initiate a response from the tree to set up the walls.
The dicoloration you write about is one of two things, the chemical barrier set up by the tree, or decay setting in.
Losing storage area is bad, but unchecked decay advancement is much worse.

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn
Do the ants realy eat good wood? My understanding is that the feed on present decay only and are more of a symbiote then a parasite.

Your understanding is what I've heard and read. In the field however, when I cut up an ant infested hunk of wood, I find holes well past the CODIT walls, and into sound, white wood.
Ants will not colinize in sound wood, they will go to wet, rotting wood, but I believe they will expand their nest by chewing through sound wood.

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn

I gotta agree here, maybe wee need someone to make an expanding foam that is unpalettable to the arboreal rodentia

The "arboreal rodentia" are not eating the stuff, they just find it easy chewing and scratching.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by kf_tree

i'm pretty sure if you contacted the manufacturer, they would tell you to discard the rope. once a petroleum based product has come in contact the rope will degrade. there's been an on going dabate about marking the middle of climbing lines(for rock and ice climbing) with a magic marker. the manufacturer's say it will weaken the rope.

I had a rope soaked in gas, from a tipped blower. The rope company told me it would be fine, and it was.

 

[monkeypuzzle]

How did you get the smell out of the rope Mike? Did just a few washings do it?

I have chunked a rope(climbing) because of the same type of spill,got hot and just threw the thing away. Gas has a lingering type funk that I can't live with. Fuel too.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Re: Re: Re: Cavity filling

Originally posted by Mike Maas
Once there is an injury to the tree, CODIT discribes the four walls that are set up by the tree.

CODIT is a modle for a 3 dimentional event (well maybe four dimentional sicne it takes place over time) wich takes place in the wood.

each "Wall" is a chemical barier in the wood to resist spread of a pathogen. If the wall is proken, then the next layer of wood reacts to set up new barriers.

Discolored wood is a chemicla reaction to the wounding/pathogen presance. Decay wood, where the lign, celulos or what ever the primary food socrse of the particual pathogen, is different from that of the reaction zone. In this zone the wood itself accualy changes chemicaly to set up the protection.

If the arboreal rodetia find the foam unpalateable they may be less likely to chew on it. How about "Texas Pete Foam Cavity Sealer" Made with real Habaneros pepper.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

JPS, we may have to agree to disagree on this point, which i think is an important point, that injuries to the cambium initiate CODIT, not injuries to the walls of CODIT. It is my understanding that breaking through a CODIT wall, will NOT initiate another set of walls to form.

If you agree with this concept, you will understand why never to clean out cavities, why not to bolt into decayed limbs, why not to use a drill to probe for decay, and many other practices from days gone by.


On the habinaro foam, that might stop northern squirrels, but those southwestern squirrels would just be attrackted to it!

On the rope smelling like gas, the smell goes away after a week or so, same with fuel smells. Washing the rope would help, but I don't often wash ropes, I try to keep them clean, and I'm lazy.
After the rope got soaked with gas I thought for sure it was junk, until I spoke to the rope guy, it surprised me.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If breaking the cambium is what initiates the reaction to wounding how do the other 3 "walls" get formed?

One is in the vessles up and down, 2 & 3 are late wood and medulary rays and only 4 is formed from the wound wood. ( I may have mixed the numbers though.)

We agree on the fact that breaking these chemical bariers is a bad thing, because it further reduces the trees survivability.

The people in favor will mention trees that last for ages after cleaning and filling, but to me this is anecdotal evidance, all the failuers have been removed without documentation.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Are you guys advocating no 'light', careful removal of decaying/infested material with no tools, save perhaps a lid from a real imitation margine tub?

In this tropical region, i kinda imagine any material, especially wet and dark to foster a whole fauna of compromising life forms, by either their hunger or secretions, breaking down wood fibre in the worst places.

Anything that just catches water, about the same. Of course even open branches in dense foilage get such a film of 'algae' like formsss, that even in light mornigh dew, can be as slippery as algae on a smooth rock under water. Same with the tropical mosses, that have to be cleared before cutting sometimes; for if you don't; they'll bog the saw like ballistic pants.

The tropical habitat i think proposes faster acceleration of some of these negative influences from a cavity.

What about an unfilled cavity filled with water and freezing, cracking(?) the wood? i've tried foam, used hardware cloth counter sunk in foam at opening with some problems still (foam pushing it out etc.). But think that there should be an answer/strategy that doesn't leave rotting material/habitat or catch basin for such or water; and feel a diffrent level of threat from leaving all alone, perhaps do to the climate sponsoring wider/faster organism incubation.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn
If breaking the cambium is what initiates the reaction to wounding how do the other 3 "walls" get formed?

One is in the vessles up and down, 2 & 3 are late wood and medulary rays and only 4 is formed from the wound wood. ( I may have mixed the numbers though.)

When the tree is injured, it sets up all four walls. If at some point a creature, fungi, or anything, sneaks into the cavity and breaks through one of these walls, the tree must rely on the decay resistance already set up, no new barriers will be laid down. Wall 4 is a chemical barrier with new rings of wood added over it. If that barreir is breeched from within, the subsequent rings that are added will not have that extra layer of chemical decay resistance, it will just be normal wood. Once decay spreads beyond that wall, it is free to move in any direction unchecked(except back across wall 4), most actively up and down because this is the least restricted direction. Remember the other walls are back on the other side of wall 4.
The same holds true for injuring other CODIT walls.

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn

We agree on the fact that breaking these chemical bariers is a bad thing, because it further reduces the trees survivability.

Although we disagree on the how critical it is to keep codit walls protected.

 

[Burnham]

Mike Maas, which rope manufacturer told you gasoline had no effect on your rope? This contradicts most of what I have heard regarding contaminates and rope strength. The issue for me is more about what types of cleaners I can safely use to remove heavy amounts of pitch from ropes, harnesses, etc. I have been told the aforementioned GoJo is not safe due to content which includes "petroleum distilates". Some hand cleaners don't say this but list stuff I have no idea what they really are! Does anybody know much about this subject?? Am I being overly cautious? It would be great if I didn't have to worry about hand cleaners on ropes, cause cleaning pitch is a tough nut to crack.