Technical Saw Chain Discussion

[PLATINUM12]

FWIW, in my 35 years of running chainsaws, I've NEVER had to remove a link from a chian because it stretched so much that my tensioner ran out of adjustment. If you're running a 25" bar on a 362, your oil tank should be almost empty when you run out of fuel.

As far as chains go, like other have said, you are waiting WAY to long to sharpen that chain. If it touches dirt, even for a fraction of a second, its dull and needs sharpened immediately. Otherwise, it should be sharpened at least every other time you fill up with gas and oil. Just like with a regular knife, you should never ever need to make it sharp. It should already be sharp, you are just keeping it that way.

If you've run it to the point that there's a downward slope on the top plate, and you've had to take a link or two out of it, you've ruined it. Its trash, throw it away. You've worn it so bad that the pitch is no longer 3/8 which is now damaging the tip on your bar as well as the drive on your sprocket. Throw those chains away, replace your rim or sprocket, and have someone who knows what they are doing take a look at your bar to see if its toast or not.

Better yet, don't throw those trashed chains away quite yet. Get a couple of new files and sharpen the living crap out of them. Take 10 strokes on each tooth. Then go back and take 3 to 5 off each tooth until you've filed the top plate down to the witness line. Take a look at Buck'n Billy Ray's sharpening videos. I'm not a huge fan of his, but his videos DO show what the top plate and side plate should look like. Try do make your cutters look exactly like his. By the time you've sharpened away 2 entire chains, you should have the hang of it. More importantly, you should have learned your lesson to NEVER let a chain get that dull again. If you're hands aren't cramping when you're done, you still haven't learned your lesson so put another trashed chain on and get back to sharpening.

As far as cleaning chains, I've never cleaned one. Then again, all of my cutting is in hickory, locust, oak, and ash with an occasional silver maple thrown in just because I need the tree out of the way. If I were cutting pine, I suspect I'd need to clean my chains quite a bit.

This answers a lot of the questions I had. When my fuel tank is empty, my bar oil is down to minimal remaining (I have the setting on max oiling).

It sounds like I am cutting WAY too long before sharpening, which is causing excessive wear and other issues. My original bar lasted a hell of a long time considering the abuse I put it through. I shaved it smooth and kept it around as a backup.

Well, yesterday, I grabbed this bar and my carbide chain, and began cutting some stumps at ground level (running in the dirt). The chain was cutting fine, but it heated up tremendously. The sprocket of my bar got super shiny, to the point the sprocket basically ceased up. I decided to retire the bar for good. So I popped on my newer bar, started running it, and the chain wouldn't stay tensioned. Now, this carbide chain already had 2 links removed from it, and before I knew it, I was already at full tension and the chain was still drooping down considerably.

It sounds like this chain's rivets are just way too worn out for the chain to work effectively, causing excessive heat and wear. Sucks because there is still a TON of carbide cutter remaining.

Last winter, I cut up about 50 dead pine trees WITHOUT SHARPENING, (including a few minutes of running through dirt to cut rotted wood) and the carbide chain still had some bite. Is it possible that even though the carbide chain continued to cut flakes, that it was still heating up too much because it needed sharpened long before I actually got it sharpened?

I don't need to cut through wood incredibly fast for my applications. Mostly, I value durability which is why I tried out the carbide chain. It's a slower cutter, but it cuts super fine and smooth because of the thin kerf. Even when it showed signs of needing sharpened, I wasn't dogging it hard into the dead pines I was cutting. What would be a way to tell when the carbide chain needs sharpening? They are super expensive and it pisses me off that there is still 90% of cutter remaining on the chain.

Also, how important is it to loosen chain tension after running the saw, including in winter months? I've seen posts and videos talking about chain stretch caused by the bar and chain heating up, then when the bar cools down, the chain is stretched?

I've played around with chain tension and I much prefer it to be on the tighter side. I tried Buckin Billy Ray's strategy where its quite loose, and when you pull up, a dozen or so drive links come out of the bar groove. But when I try that, within seconds, the chain is drooping down on me.

Also, can excessive wear on the drive sprocket potentially be the cause of my issues too?

 

[HumBurner]

This answers a lot of the questions I had. When my fuel tank is empty, my bar oil is down to minimal remaining (I have the setting on max oiling).

It sounds like I am cutting WAY too long before sharpening, which is causing excessive wear and other issues. My original bar lasted a hell of a long time considering the abuse I put it through. I shaved it smooth and kept it around as a backup.

Well, yesterday, I grabbed this bar and my carbide chain, and began cutting some stumps at ground level (running in the dirt). The chain was cutting fine, but it heated up tremendously. The sprocket of my bar got super shiny, to the point the sprocket basically ceased up. I decided to retire the bar for good. So I popped on my newer bar, started running it, and the chain wouldn't stay tensioned. Now, this carbide chain already had 2 links removed from it, and before I knew it, I was already at full tension and the chain was still drooping down considerably.

It sounds like this chain's rivets are just way too worn out for the chain to work effectively, causing excessive heat and wear. Sucks because there is still a TON of carbide cutter remaining.

Last winter, I cut up about 50 dead pine trees WITHOUT SHARPENING, (including a few minutes of running through dirt to cut rotted wood) and the carbide chain still had some bite. Is it possible that even though the carbide chain continued to cut flakes, that it was still heating up too much because it needed sharpened long before I actually got it sharpened?

I don't need to cut through wood incredibly fast for my applications. Mostly, I value durability which is why I tried out the carbide chain. It's a slower cutter, but it cuts super fine and smooth because of the thin kerf. Even when it showed signs of needing sharpened, I wasn't dogging it hard into the dead pines I was cutting. What would be a way to tell when the carbide chain needs sharpening? They are super expensive and it pisses me off that there is still 90% of cutter remaining on the chain.

Also, how important is it to loosen chain tension after running the saw, including in winter months? I've seen posts and videos talking about chain stretch caused by the bar and chain heating up, then when the bar cools down, the chain is stretched?

I've played around with chain tension and I much prefer it to be on the tighter side. I tried Buckin Billy Ray's strategy where its quite loose, and when you pull up, a dozen or so drive links come out of the bar groove. But when I try that, within seconds, the chain is drooping down on me.

Also, can excessive wear on the drive sprocket potentially be the cause of my issues too?

Check your needle bearing on the clutch (and circlip if it's an inboard), if it's getting that hot.

Is your bar burr-free and square? Can you show photos of your clutch-sprocket? Photos of the bar sprocket?

 

[PLATINUM12]

Check your needle bearing on the clutch (and circlip if it's an inboard), if it's getting that hot.

Is your bar burr-free and square? Can you show photos of your clutch-sprocket? Photos of the bar sprocket?

Bar is in great shape, I looked it over and there is absolutely no edges or anything worn on it yet. (Stihl ES Light bar)

Needle bearing on the clutch = ?

Using the saw yesterday during those stump cuts had my front hand getting super hot even with a glove on, so there was some serious heat being generated.

 

[buzz sawyer]

Can you post close pics of carbide and reg. chain, drive sprocket, bar rails, and nose sprocket? You may not be in a hurry to cut but the saw doesn't like to be overloaded for long periods. It should take very little pressure for the chain to cut. Too much pressure could also cause the clutch to slip and overheat.

 

[Charlie Coyote]

Haven't found the answers for some questions I have between searches and Youtube, so I want to start a thread talking about the technical side of saw chains to get some insight on best practices.

Brand new chains always cut the best. But that is shortly lived depending on the conditions it is being used in. I haven't yet found a great formula for sharpening chains, so before we get into that, I have some questions about how the chain actually works.

Full Chisel Chains:

1. Is the entire top plate of the cutter doing most of the cutting?
2. How much of the side plate is doing the cutting?
3. How critical is it that the gullet needs to remain as sharp as the top plate?

I run a Stihl MS362 with 25" bar, and I generally run the Stihl saw chains, both full comp and full skip. I also have the carbide Stihl chain, which is more of a semi chisel, but I'll discuss this one later.

When a brand new chain has been worn enough and needs sharpened, I notice that the top plate cutter has a slight downward slope that has worn into it. When I use the Stihl 2 in 1 hand file, I use it according to directions, but the round file doesn't do much at all for the top plate, since its not tall enough (Yes I'm using the 3/8" Stihl file). It will sharpen the side plate a bit, and the gullet, and file down the raker as well. This is what leads me to believe the top plate is the most critical part of the cutter to be sharp, because after filing, my results aren't much better. At full throttle, the chain pretty much just glides over the wood, not taking any bites into it. At lighter throttle, it will start to grab more wood, but this is not an efficient way to cut at all.
I also have a basic electric grinder (Harbor Freight) which doesn't work too bad. It is able to give it a new edge for the top plate, but grinding each cutter side results in uneven griding because one side is being ground differently than the other (despite grinding it at the correct angle). However, after using this, this gives me better bite in terms of cutting. Sometimes, after grinding a new top plate edge, I then use my 2 in 1 file to make the edge a bit more refined.

As a landowner, I am not in a race to get things cut up, I value durability more. I generally have always sharpened at 30 degree angles. I tried 35 and it just wasn't biting enough for me. This weekend I tried sharpening at 25 degrees to see what the results will be next time I cut. Will this angle hold up better than 30 degrees? I cut anything from rotted pine, to fresh oak, cherry, and maple, so I would like the best all-around option.

On larger trees over 2' in diameter, after making regular log cuts, I cut with the grain/longways to cut the logs into manageable pieces for firewood. What is a better chain/angle option for making these kinds of cuts, without going to the extreme of an actual 'ripping chain.'

I notice the full skip chains will dull a bit quicker, but they require less time to sharpen. I likely won't buy another full skip chain for this sized saw and based on my general cutting needs.

I haven't yet bought the new Stihl Hexa chain, but it seems like the Hexa file is taller and would offer better sharpening of the top plate. I'd also be interested if these chains keep their edge longer than other circle ground chains.

I'm open to hearing about square ground chains, in terms of benefits, downsides, etc.

Semi Chisel/Carbide Chains

I had great success last fall running my Stihl carbide saw chain. I was able to cut up around 50 dead pines and still had solid cutting power. This also included quite a bit of dirt time, probably at least a few minutes collectively of being run in the dirt based on the rotted trees I was cutting up. This is more of a semi chisel/thin kerf chain. Only downsides are it isnt a fast cutter, and I don't have a means of sharpening it. The other issue I had was chain stretch, where I had to remove a link on two occasions to keep it usable. My bar I ran was also worn down a bit, so I think that might have had something to do with it heating up.

For this size of saw, semi chisel chains aren't very popular, but they definitely hold their edge much longer. I run the picco chains on my pole saw and MS180 for limbing, and they do a great job of having a usable cutting edge even when contacted with dirt a bit. My Stihl 2 in 1 sharpener tends to do a better job of sharpening these chains because of the semi chisel shape, and lower profile of the cutting plate.


Beyond that, I personally never clean or oil my chains. Is it really worth it to clean the chain when you remove it, and then soak it in oil after you sharpen it? If so, what kind of cleaner/oil are you guys using?

TL;DR: I want to get better cutting performance and life out of my saw chains instead of having to dog my saw hard to get the chains to bite better as the sharpness dulls during use.

Thanks in advance.

You need to watch Buckin Billy Ray on YouTube. The gullet is all important as the top.

 

[HumBurner]

Bar is in great shape, I looked it over and there is absolutely no edges or anything worn on it yet. (Stihl ES Light bar)

Needle bearing on the clutch = ?

Using the saw yesterday during those stump cuts had my front hand getting super hot even with a glove on, so there was some serious heat being generated.

On the inboard clutches, there is a needle bearing when you take the clutch out. Much easier to do than on the outboards, but outboards often have a hole in the shaft to grease.

 

[stihltech]

Front hand getting super hot with a glove on? That is heat off the muffler due to being close to the wood.
Carbide chain cuts slower? Then are you pushing to make up the difference? That = chain wear due to heat. Sharp is sharp no matter what chain you use.

 

[fields_mj]

I don't recall how long of a bar you are using, but generally speaking when the saw is not running, if you pull up on the chain with enough force to start to lift the bar (taking up slack but not stretching anything anywhere), the chain should have enough slack that the drivers come about 3/4 of the way out of the bar.

If the chain is loosening up noticeably without even putting it in any wood, something is wrong. I'd start by replacing the chain tensioner. I'd also get rid of that carbide chain. If you want to cut in the dirt, keep a moderately worn bar and your carbide chain for that, but don't run it for anything else. You're just tearing up the saw. Use a normal chain for cutting, and then swap to the carbide a different bar for stumping, and then switch back before cutting wood again.

 

[sean donato]

Carbide dies cut slower vs a full chisel, but it should still self feed. It really sounds like you're forcing the saw to cut with dull chains.

 

[PLATINUM12]

Okay here are some close up pics of the sprocket. Doesn't seem to have notable wear, but you guys let me know. I cleaned the saw up real good this weekend. Is it worth removing the sprocket and clutch to clean under them? I use my air compressor to get the majority of it out, but it seems to be never ending in removing debris from behind the clutch.

Also, took a pic of the carbide chain. The rivets have a ton of movement in them, and you can see how glazed they are. I grinded the depth gauges way down to experiment with some more stumps next time, but really I will just retire this chain. Seems I was just working it too hard and even though it was nice being able to just cut cut cut away, not worth it to be anything more than an 'as needed' chain like someone else mentioned.

Yes, when I tension my chain, I lift the nose of the bar up a hair. Should I hold the tip of the bar up when I tighten down the cover nuts? I feel like even if tensioned down, the front weight of the bar is going to settle back down anyway within seconds of use.

 

[HumBurner]

Your sprocket looks toast, from what I can see.

Can't tell much from the chain photos, but it doesn't look good.

It looks like you may have a grease hole at the end of the shaft.


Try getting better shots similar to this:

 

[Philbert]

Sprockets: new, worn, past normal replacement (photos, below).

Worn sprockets often cause irregular chain tension issues.



‘New’ chains are a reference point. Some people will file these before use, to obtain preferred angles.

Many people sharpen to different angles for different types / conditions of wood, for speed over longevity, etc.

Both the top plate cutting edge, and the side plate cutting edge, along with the ‘working corner’ (where they meet) must be sharp and free from damage.

The side plate chops through the wood fibers (crosscutting); the top plate separates out the ‘chip’; the depth gauge determines the depth of the cut / thickness of the chip; the gullet helps carry the chips to the tail of the bar, where they are ejected.

All have to work together for efficient cutting, or the chain may try to tear, rather than cut, the wood.

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

I also have a basic electric grinder (Harbor Freight) which doesn't work too bad.

I can’t say anything good about the HF grinder, other than it is the cheapest one out there.

https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/hf-chain-grinder-thread.268303/

Place one of your new, STIHL, chains in there, with the grinder OFF, and figure out how you would match that cutter profile with that skinny wheel.

A proper grinder and profiled wheel will have a rim closer to what a file looks like, and help you get that ‘like new’ profile (if that’s what you want).


Philbert

 

[sean donato]

If there's play in the rivets the chain is toast. Just from the one Pic of the carbide chain it looks like you chipped at least one cutter, which usually means it's a few cutters tgat are damaged. You should have had it sharpened when you noticed it cutting slower then normal. Takes a diamond to sharpen the carbide. Your rim drive is junk, replace it. Check over your other chains for damage to the drivers. I'd also be curious if your oiling enough, since it seems you have abnormal chain stretch issue to boot.

 

[PLATINUM12]

Alrighty so, a few things I figured out. For starters, I WAS using the 4.0mm file for all my chains which is why it wasn't filing my taller chains as it should have. Purchased the 5.2mm 2 in 1 file and the chains are now sharpened properly.

I picked up a new sprocket and I can definitely see the difference now. I'll run it a bit longer with my used chains and then replace it when I put on a brand new chain.

I picked up a 25" Hexa chain and file today as well. Curious to test it out and see how well it holds it's edge. Compared to the regular Rapid Super chain, its slightly narrower too. I might try to use the file on an RS chain to see what it does. Don't really care if it cuts "10% faster" so long as it keeps an edge better.

I think between running the carbide chain too hard on that worn sprocket, along with a bar that was end of life was the reason it didn't last as I expected. Might buy one down the road to keep in my arsenal for specific cuts.

I inquired at my Stihl dealer about the new Rapid Micro tall chisel chain. It's listed on Stihl's website but says not available, and my guess is it's probably going to be circulated around Europe before hitting the states, like they do with most things. I think this one would be a nice in-between for cutting the dirty, rotted pines and keeping its edge longer while being easier to sharpen than the carbide chain.

I DO have the oiler all the way up. When the tank is out of fuel, there is only a small amount of oil left in the reservoir.

Appreciate the help on these forums to get me more knowledgeable on the technical side of things.

The cheap Harbor Freight saw chain sharpener serves a purpose for if a chain is badly worn and needs a new edge ground into it. I used it to set a few edge on a couple used chains and then filed with the new file to perfection. I will avoid allowing the chains to get to that point as much as I can moving forward.

Is there such a thing as a unilateral saw chain? Instead of having alternating left/right cutters, a cutter that is symmetrical? Kind of like the diamond/concrete cutting chains except for wood?

 

[Philbert]

Small things can make a big difference.

Not a ‘unilateral’ chain, but you can look up posts, and Google, ‘scratcher chain’. No top plates, but still right and left, plus center cutters.

https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/scratcher-chain.271236/

Philbert

 

[PLATINUM12]

So, in regards to chain gauge. My pole saw and smaller saws use .043 (12” and 16”). My big saw uses .050 (25”).

Under what circumstances would going to a larger gauge be advantageous? At a certain length? Or depending on what I’m cutting? Is there increased durability? A decrease in chain speed and wear on bar, sprocket, etc?

 

[Philbert]

The thinner gauge dive links are used with narrow kerf chains to keep the chain narrow, and lighter. This works well on smaller, lower powered saws.

.050 gauge is used on many larger pitch chains and saws. Some people prefer 0.063 on larger saws for better oiling, but this would not be suitable for a pole saw.

Philbert

 

[PLATINUM12]

The thinner gauge dive links are used with narrow kerf chains to keep the chain narrow, and lighter. This works well on smaller, lower powered saws.

.050 gauge is used on many larger pitch chains and saws. Some people prefer 0.063 on larger saws for better oiling, but this would not be suitable for a pole saw.

Philbert

So I have plans to get a larger saw in the future, running a 36" bar and possibly occasionally a larger one. 0.63 would be better for these for improved oiling then?

 

[Philbert]

So I have plans to get a larger saw in the future, running a 36" bar and possibly occasionally a larger one. 0.63 would be better for these for improved oiling then?

On longer bars, and larger pitch chains, I would generally expect to see larger gauge drive links.

in general use, I would use the gauge that came with the saw: 0.050, 0.058, 0.063, and not obsess over it, unless buying chain by the roll.

Philbert