The Descriptive Process

[rwoods]

General rule of thumb question assuming the information sought is not proprietary or meaningless due to local variables:

With average accessibility in your part of the world, what is the usual split between landowner and logger? How about when a broker/forester is involved? Does species materially impact the split?

My experience is extremely limited and all local - 25 years ago, I sold the logs from one red oak with one veneer or near veneer quality log. The split then was 50% logger, 25% broker and 25% owner. All the logger did was pickup and transport the logs. Later sold a very small patch by taking bids directly from loggers, but can’t remember the ending split - I do remember that the loads from one walnut brought more than half the gross for all, but required transport to a more distant mill.

Question is part curiosity and part personal. Curiosity extends all the way to BW’s neck of the woods.

Thanks,

Ron

 

[northmanlogging]

My split starts at 50/50, edging to more towards me the fewer loads or more danger etc rarely bid less then 70/30.

I have bid as high as 60% to the lo, cause it was really nice timber... but that guy had trouble staying out of jail long enough to get a clear permit.

Trucking off the top, so we both take the hit.

Never dealt with a forester, but i wanna say they like getting paid direct round here

 

[Skeans]

We're normally are around 45% any higher here and you'll lose jobs, when we did firm work it was all tonnage based and I'll say this with them even some of the big firms will screw you and try to throw you under the bus to the land owner.

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[madhatte]

Never dealt with a forester, but i wanna say they like getting paid direct round here

Reason for that is we're always "wrong". Graded standing timber and scaled logs are never the same, no matter how hard we try! We get blamed for that a lot of the time. We have ways around it, though... like crippling the growth model to show a smaller volume than actual. This lets the logger think he's getting one over on us, which pencils out as a Good Deal. It pains us to do this, though, because we KNOW our numbers are not only "wrong", but actually Wrong. I can explain this more if anybody's interested.

 

[northmanlogging]

Ya?

it makes sense, cause if us dumb loggers start thinking that the foresters are overbidding stuff it might make us reconsider the project, better to come out ahead then, to be left holding the bag.

The few FS projects I've looked at seems like they were looking at about half the timber I was looking at, maybe on purpose maybe not, I may never know for sure.

 

[woodfarmer]

From a landowner, an Ash tree boards out at 100’. I was offered $ 0.50 bd ft. I log and truck an hour away. No way,
Meanwhile they sell spruce Christmas trees 8’ for $50 around here.

 

[Skeans]

Reason for that is we're always "wrong". Graded standing timber and scaled logs are never the same, no matter how hard we try! We get blamed for that a lot of the time. We have ways around it, though... like crippling the growth model to show a smaller volume than actual. This lets the logger think he's getting one over on us, which pencils out as a Good Deal. It pains us to do this, though, because we KNOW our numbers are not only "wrong", but actually Wrong. I can explain this more if anybody's interested.

What happened to us was the forestry firm did what I would define as green logging leaving wood piles X amount an acre in thinnings, have us make X amount of stags an acre which are something the customer didn't want or ask for. The other firms were fine to work for other then they wouldn't call out on the CB saying they were walking into the trail a few of them would almost get hit with a tree.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[northmanlogging]

From a landowner, an Ash tree boards out at 100’. I was offered $ 0.50 bd ft. I log and truck an hour away. No way,
Meanwhile they sell spruce Christmas trees 8’ for $50 around here.

I might be confused here... so yer saying an ash tree, is worth roughly $50, an entire load being about $2500

Where as a christmas tree, is worth the same $50?

The difference being that that ash tree just grew for 40 years or so with minimal input.

and that christmas tree takes yearly planting, yearly prunning, fertilizer, anti funguls, anti bugs, marketing, and a crew of kids to cut and sell them, or the industrial harvest, a bunch more work to cut and wrap thousands of trees in a few short weeks...

I don't know guess its how you look at it.

 

[madhatte]

it makes sense, cause if us dumb loggers start thinking that the foresters are overbidding stuff it might make us reconsider the project, better to come out ahead then, to be left holding the bag.

Pretty much. Paperwork-wise, it's easier for us to take a bit of a bath than to arbitrate a dispute. We're not Weyco and are not under huge pressure to make a buck. We don't have shareholders. Oh, and we don't grade for poles or special mill or anything except sawlogs. The Corps guys don't want to deal with the admin. Loggers come out ahead there, too.

What happened to us was the forestry firm did what I would define as green logging leaving wood piles X amount an acre in thinnings, have us make X amount of stags an acre which are something the customer didn't want or ask for. The other firms were fine to work for other then they wouldn't call out on the CB saying they were walking into the trail a few of them would almost get hit with a tree.

Those snag/leave tree rules are a PITA. They don't work and they are a hassle and a hazard for everybody involved. We only add two hassles -- some pre-work road repair (we don't have any other timely way to get roads repaired because government) and lop/scatter/crush all slash. No piles. Can't get the permits to burn 'em.

 

[northmanlogging]

I think i need to look into cutting down there again... sounds like its fairly easy werk

 

[woodfarmer]

Hmmmm, 1536 bd ft in a cord of wood @$.50 would be $768. Vs $100 cord for firewood and the customer pays for trucking. I’m not sure what wastage is in a log, maybe 20% or more when sawing, but the mills around here bundle it and sell it for firewood.
So I either sell for firewood or find a mill that pays better or does their own trucking.

 

[madhatte]

I think i need to look into cutting down there again... sounds like its fairly easy werk

It's all skidder ground, even.

 

[Skeans]

From a landowner, an Ash tree boards out at 100’. I was offered $ 0.50 bd ft. I log and truck an hour away. No way,
Meanwhile they sell spruce Christmas trees 8’ for $50 around here.

Can I throw in a little having been a Noble fir Christmas tree farm, our price we got at U cut was around 50 yes but look at our liability for it. Now think of this what a seedling cost each, the amount of fuel to work that ground just to plant that field, now after planting we have to mow the rows then till the rows for the first 3 to 4 years after that it's just mow, then comes hand labor of shearing a tree to shape it's hard to find a good crew that knows how to do it let alone one guy to do now think of the insurance to run this crew, fertilizer is done at least once a year for color every year, then comes harvest it's normally not a clear cut it's selective so the cost is higher because of labor, now let's talk equipment the balers alone are around 50k, a stump grinder at least another 50k, the 100+ horse tractor it takes to run the grinder, then a special narrow tractor not cheap either plus everything you need for it. For the 50 dollars you pay for the tree it's amazing the guys stay in business trust me we got out of it because there's no way you can make anything unless you're big a million plus a year, our biggest year was 125k of them.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Skeans]

Those snag/leave tree rules are a PITA. They don't work and they are a hassle and a hazard for everybody involved. We only add two hassles -- some pre-work road repair (we don't have any other timely way to get roads repaired because government) and lop/scatter/crush all slash. No piles. Can't get the permits to burn 'em.

My only thing I would say on government thins yes you can do that but for a small private land owner it shouldn't be done they're looking for two completely different things, when we did that work they would blame it on us which is something I'd never leave or do for a land owner. Most foresters are great to work for but some really leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth plus they make a tinder box for fire.
Now to the slash part with how we do our cut to length thinning running on the slash does that fit your guy's model or does it all need to be ground?

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[SliverPicker]

Then some of the guys just about using tape to hold their eyes open. Only the good guys will take care of business like that, and Dean was one of the good guys. We talk about him all the time.

We've had this conversation, but I really do consider him one of my best-ever friends. Even after all the time that went by between contact. There was never any BS from him. I always felt 100% comfortable around that guy. This is from day one of having met him. He was a very special guy. Life ain't fair. Can't go back. Blah blah blah.

I know you know what I mean.

 

[SliverPicker]

I'm a bit guilt-ridden to this day that I didn't stay in touch with him. Crap.

 

[Jhenderson]

Hmmmm, 1536 bd ft in a cord of wood @$.50 would be $768. Vs $100 cord for firewood and the customer pays for trucking. I’m not sure what wastage is in a log, maybe 20% or more when sawing, but the mills around here bundle it and sell it for firewood.
So I either sell for firewood or find a mill that pays better or does their own trucking.

Be careful going to the internet for all your info. That figure is pure math. It doesn't allow for any air space and uses sawn lumber, not logs for its cu ft conclusions. There's closer to 1K board ft of logs in a cord.

 

[Gologit]

Can I throw in a little having been a Noble fir Christmas tree farm, our price we got at U cut was around 50 yes but look at our liability for it. Now think of this what a seedling cost each, the amount of fuel to work that ground just to plant that field, now after planting we have to mow the rows then till the rows for the first 3 to 4 years after that it's just mow, then comes hand labor of shearing a tree to shape it's hard to find a good crew that knows how to do it let alone one guy to do now think of the insurance to run this crew, fertilizer is done at least once a year for color every year, then comes harvest it's normally not a clear cut it's selective so the cost is higher because of labor, now let's talk equipment the balers alone are around 50k, a stump grinder at least another 50k, the 100+ horse tractor it takes to run the grinder, then a special narrow tractor not cheap either plus everything you need for it. For the 50 dollars you pay for the tree it's amazing the guys stay in business trust me we got out of it because there's no way you can make anything unless you're big a million plus a year, our biggest year was 125k of them.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Did you guys use a helicopter for harvest? Just kind of curious about the going rate per hour or per bundle.

 

[northmanlogging]

Hmmmm, 1536 bd ft in a cord of wood @$.50 would be $768. Vs $100 cord for firewood and the customer pays for trucking. I’m not sure what wastage is in a log, maybe 20% or more when sawing, but the mills around here bundle it and sell it for firewood.
So I either sell for firewood or find a mill that pays better or does their own trucking.

well, it takes about 2 hours to hand cut 1k bf, felling limbing and skidding. All of which would need to be done if it where to be processed into firewood anyway.

Then I'm no superhero and with the splitter I have it takes another 5 or 6 hours to split up a cord.

We can get $250 a cord around here for split and dried firewood, $250 for 8 hours of work, cut out yer fuel cost and the cost of the equipment, say half of that $250, you just made $125 for a days worth of work.

Instead spend the 8 hours or so cutting and skidding saw logs, at say $.50 per bf ends up at 4000 bf or $2000 In the same 8 hours you made 4 times the money, with considerably less work, and likely less fuel too.

 

[northmanlogging]

Firewooding is a racket, it seems like your making money until you realize that its a matter of scale, bigger truck, bigger skidding, and much much bigger splitting and processing.

Not knocking the guys that do it, but to really get ahead on it you need to be able to process a whole bunch of wood in one day, and then turn around and sell it all.

Hel, I bought my skidder on firewood money, but it took all spring, summer and fall to make enough to convince the wife to let me do it.