The Descriptive Process

[Skeans]

Did you guys use a helicopter for harvest? Just kind of curious about the going rate per hour or per bundle.

No we did all hand labor as well as using our forwarder then we have a forwarder trailer for our 100 horse 4x4 tractor, bailing was done with a stand up baler as well as three other standard balers most of our trees were 8'+ range so weight was up there as well. Wish I could help on the helicopter part but I don't have clue on the rate.

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[madhatte]

Most foresters are great to work for but some really leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth plus they make a tinder box for fire.
Now to the slash part with how we do our cut to length thinning running on the slash does that fit your guy's model or does it all need to be ground?

Re: tinderbox effect. Turns out the Agency wants long horizontal views under a closed canopy, so one of our silvicultural goals is to prevent fuels buildup. Some landowners are weird about not killing any trees, but not ours.

Re: slash. Whole-tree skidding to landing, slash re-distributed after, lop/scatter/crush. No grinder requirement. Sometimes it's convenient to corduroy a wet spot which is fine. Turn trees are discouraged but allowed as necessary. We did a sale a few years ago testing the waters of biomass sale that required a grinder because hogfuel was the product. Nobody made a dime, so we didn't do it again.

 

[northmanlogging]

so if a guy were to limb and buck in the brush, then all He would need to do is drive over the brush and call it a day?

 

[madhatte]

Probably so. That should meet the contract requirements. You'd want to ask the Corps guys but I think they'd be good with that.

 

[woodfarmer]

I realize there is a more realistic number than those I posted. As Northman said selling to a mill is the way to go. There’s always lots of tops and crooked trees for firewood.
I had a fellow by today to look at the lumber I had milled this summer. If I can get a few orders, I would considered having a portable mill come in and mill the logs.

 

[DSW]

well, it takes about 2 hours to hand cut 1k bf, felling limbing and skidding. All of which would need to be done if it where to be processed into firewood anyway.

Then I'm no superhero and with the splitter I have it takes another 5 or 6 hours to split up a cord.

We can get $250 a cord around here for split and dried firewood, $250 for 8 hours of work, cut out yer fuel cost and the cost of the equipment, say half of that $250, you just made $125 for a days worth of work.

Instead spend the 8 hours or so cutting and skidding saw logs, at say $.50 per bf ends up at 4000 bf or $2000 In the same 8 hours you made 4 times the money, with considerably less work, and likely less fuel too.

Time I moved to the West coast.

I'm in flat ground, hardwood country, couldn't be more different than the West coast. How realistic is $.50 a foot? White oak and Walnut, sometimes cherry are up there in price and there's a decent amount of it. There's a ton of red oak and Maple but by the time it's all said and done it doesn't pencil out to $2000 a day that's for sure. If you were in absolute premium stands of white oak, and they exist, it's gravy but that makes up a small percentage.

Ash for a guaranteed $.50 i'd never leave the woods.

 

[northmanlogging]

Time I moved to the West coast.

I'm in flat ground, hardwood country, couldn't be more different than the West coast. How realistic is $.50 a foot? White oak and Walnut, sometimes cherry are up there in price and there's a decent amount of it. There's a ton of red oak and Maple but by the time it's all said and done it doesn't pencil out to $2000 a day that's for sure. If you were in absolute premium stands of white oak, and they exist, it's gravy but that makes up a small percentage.

Ash for a guaranteed $.50 i'd never leave the woods.

We're getting between .60 to 1.42 per foot, species dependent.

Its all in how much production you can get in a day, realistically I don't make that in a day, but I can if I were to push a little harder.

Fer me 10 trees on average makes a load, 20 logs thereabouts. I hand limb and limbing out here is a bit different then limbing hardwoods, hardwoods get 3-4 big limbs per stem, we get 100 plus per stem.

Anyway, one guy and a skidder, with a little enthusiasm, should be able to put up 3-5k bf a day, long days yes, but I've done it even in sketchy ground and cruddy timber.

Ole bitz claims to do it on the regular (I believe him) and many an old fart says they've done it too. If your not getting a load a day take a long hard look at how you manage your movement, cut any excessive waltzing around or tracking back and forth in a machine.

Right now, with the very little light we have, production is a little slim, but I'm still averaging a load every other day.

 

[Jhenderson]

Pri

We're getting between .60 to 1.42 per foot, species dependent.

Its all in how much production you can get in a day, realistically I don't make that in a day, but I can if I were to push a little harder.

Fer me 10 trees on average makes a load, 20 logs thereabouts. I hand limb and limbing out here is a bit different then limbing hardwoods, hardwoods get 3-4 big limbs per stem, we get 100 plus per stem.

Anyway, one guy and a skidder, with a little enthusiasm, should be able to put up 3-5k bf a day, long days yes, but I've done it even in sketchy ground and cruddy timber.

Ole bitz claims to do it on the regular (I believe him) and many an old fart says they've done it too. If your not getting a load a day take a long hard look at how you manage your movement, cut any excessive waltzing around or tracking back and forth in a machine.

Right now, with the very little light we have, production is a little slim, but I'm still averaging a load every other day.

Prices don't matter as much as stumpage, trucking, and chance vs final gate price. All these figures being thrown around seem to ignore all the other costs associated with producing the logs delivered to the mill. I've never had a $2K day but I bet I've put more in my pocket than some who have. Right now I'm cutting white pine. Anybody want to discuss prices? Try .40cts a foot delivered for a prime ( 20+ in, clear 16 ft) log. I've seen scale tickets with a .35 cts price for a log. Not per ft, the whole log! Around here a good job will average 350 bd ft per tree. An average job, 225-250 bd ft. The job I'm on right now has more pulp than logs on an average day. Making blanket statements about value, volume, and costs don't serve anybody very well.

 

[Gologit]

Making blanket statements about value, volume, and costs don't serve anybody very well.

In your part of the country, with your methods, that may be true.
Out here is a different story. Maybe our value, volume, and costs are easier to figure because there are so many examples for us to use and so much good information readily available to us.

Maybe making blanket statements about making blanket statements isn't a good idea either?

 

[northmanlogging]

Pri


Prices don't matter as much as stumpage, trucking, and chance vs final gate price. All these figures being thrown around seem to ignore all the other costs associated with producing the logs delivered to the mill. I've never had a $2K day but I bet I've put more in my pocket than some who have. Right now I'm cutting white pine. Anybody want to discuss prices? Try .40cts a foot delivered for a prime ( 20+ in, clear 16 ft) log. I've seen scale tickets with a .35 cts price for a log. Not per ft, the whole log! Around here a good job will average 350 bd ft per tree. An average job, 225-250 bd ft. The job I'm on right now has more pulp than logs on an average day. Making blanket statements about value, volume, and costs don't serve anybody very well.

Think yer missing the part where woodfarmer was sayin that firewood is better money then .50 a foot.

If that's true, good on him. But I've played both games, logging if you have the timber in front of you and a means of production wins every time. When I started this craziness (2009 the height of the depression) we were getting .16 to .22 per foot, or 160-220 per 1k bf. That's right around $720 for the whole load, -$250. for trucking and split 3 ways. Not hardly worth the effort.

But then firewooding, all I really accomplished was a sore back and a beat up truck, made a little more money then, but not enough to make up for the physical effort. Now though, firewood is a chumps game out here, tweekers and drunks play at it and drive the prices down, even with inflation you can still get a real cord of wood for $180, cut split and delivered, I can't even sell dump truck loads of logs and compete with that.

 

[northmanlogging]

Pri


Prices don't matter as much as stumpage, trucking, and chance vs final gate price. All these figures being thrown around seem to ignore all the other costs associated with producing the logs delivered to the mill. I've never had a $2K day but I bet I've put more in my pocket than some who have. Right now I'm cutting white pine. Anybody want to discuss prices? Try .40cts a foot delivered for a prime ( 20+ in, clear 16 ft) log. I've seen scale tickets with a .35 cts price for a log. Not per ft, the whole log! Around here a good job will average 350 bd ft per tree. An average job, 225-250 bd ft. The job I'm on right now has more pulp than logs on an average day. Making blanket statements about value, volume, and costs don't serve anybody very well.

Further more, stumpage is simple here split it by percentage, make sure you're making enough to make it worth while but don't rob the client blind either. Trucking isn't so bad, and you can figure that into the bid, here is based on distance mostly so its pretty easy to figure.

Far as Chance VS Final gate price? not sure what you mean, prices vary yes, but generally not wildly, and if you send the mills decent wood on the regular they tend to scale a little better, not much mind... but a little, So I don't see where there is chance involved?

Unless you are buying standing timber, which is normal in some areas, and foolish if you want my opinion, too many variables for that sort of nonsense.

 

[Jhenderson]

Chance is the term we use around here for the difficulty in harvest. Hard chance= rocky, steep, wet, long skid, or any combination there of. Easy chance= flat, good soil conditions, short skid, good wood etc. Buying standing timber is the norm around here, but even if you're contracting to a mill, logging chance has to come into play in order to turn a profit. I've looked at jobs where I'd loose money even if I doubled my base rate.

 

[DSW]

We're getting between .60 to 1.42 per foot, species dependent.

Bags are packed.

We're getting hosed here.

Buying standing timber is pretty common as well. Maple which isn't bringing anything anyway could really break a guy. A stand where 50% end up having heart rot and look fine on the outside. Yep, empty pockets.

 

[bitzer]

Ash trees that are 100' to 10" top are possible but not regular in this part of the world. My tallest was 75'. Ash is getting 600/mbf for number 1 delivered plus a bump for trucking if you're hauling. So $500 across the board would be pretty good considering number threes aren't worth sending. A cord is more like 500 bf.

Walnut is top of the list followed by cherry, hard/soft maple, red/white oak, then ash and basswood. Hickory next and then you really start scraping with beech, elm etc.

Yes you do have to cut a load a day. I typically cut/skid 1-2 loads per day. Totally dependant on size of timber, skid distance, terrain, etc. Don't think you'll do that part time with a farm tractor or skid loader. This is including pulp too. I've cut big timber jobs(6-700bf average) and done 2+ loads a day. Then I've cut pulp and pecker pole heavy jobs and barely scrape a load out for seemingly twice the effort. If you want to make money you will need to run 1.5 to 2 gallons thru a 90cc saw in a day and put that wood on the landing.

Northy-
on big oak you could be flushing 30" limbs off. Just saying.

Madhatte- so that's why my forester is always light on scale! I just thought I was that good!

 

[madhatte]

Madhatte- so that's why my forester is always light on scale! I just thought I was that good!

Maybe it's both?

 

[Trx250r180]

Some of the guys in town here can put out 30 ish loads a day with the toys they get to play with ,they are having problems getting trucks to haul them though .

 

[Skeans]

Some of the guys in town here can put out 30 ish loads a day with the toys they get to play with ,they are having problems getting trucks to haul them though .

Lots of guys pushing 30 a day down here if they can get the trucks but one big boy down here running his own trucks was pushing just shy of 50 a day.

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[Trx250r180]

Lots of guys pushing 30 a day down here if they can get the trucks but one big boy down here running his own trucks was pushing just shy of 50 a day.

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Running 2 yarders or 1 ? 50 is a lot of sticks in a day .

 

[Jhenderson]

In your part of the country, with your methods, that may be true.
Out here is a different story. Maybe our value, volume, and costs are easier to figure because there are so many examples for us to use and so much good information readily available to us.

Maybe making blanket statements about making blanket statements isn't a good idea either?

Be sure to write again when you have something to ad to the discussion.

 

[Skeans]

Running 2 yarders or 1 ? 50 is a lot of sticks in a day .

One, we were told last Friday by one of the company foresters in 2018 the goal is no more choker setters or chasers it'll all be grapple ground and tethered for steep stuff the rest will be shovel logged.

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