The Descriptive Process

[woodfarmer]

Think yer missing the part where woodfarmer was sayin that firewood is better money then .50 a foot.

If that's true, good on him. But I've played both games, logging if you have the timber in front of you and a means of production wins every time. When I started this craziness (2009 the height of the depression) we were getting .16 to .22 per foot, or 160-220 per 1k bf. That's right around $720 for the whole load, -$250. for trucking and split 3 ways. Not hardly worth the effort.

But then firewooding, all I really accomplished was a sore back and a beat up truck, made a little more money then, but not enough to make up for the physical effort. Now though, firewood is a chumps game out here, tweekers and drunks play at it and drive the prices down, even with inflation you can still get a real cord of wood for $180, cut split and delivered, I can't even sell dump truck loads of logs and compete with that.

I may or may not have been into the Christmas cheer when I made that comment, I was confused.
I had a better conversation with a log buyer today @ 600 per 1k bf. They have their own truck so that should be slightly better. The weather however has been in the low -20s most of the week, that's darn cold. Christmas vacation is almost over, so it will be back to the real job and logging when I can get to it. Cheers

 

[Gologit]

You don't have to be an arbiter to recognize a ridiculous sentence or phrase. As for volume; what I said was the average ( pine) tree on a job was 225-250. Unlike out west, most jobs here are TSI. We don't cut the biggest and best, we cut what needs cutting. I've got jobs I've worked 3 times in the last 35 years. How many jobs have you been back to?

You're right, I don't usually "go back" to jobs I've been on. Most of our logging is clearcut so there's no need to go back. Clearcut really simplifies things.
A few years ago I logged an eighty acre piece that my Grandfather logged when he was a young man. It was mostly Redwood down low and doug fir a little higher up.It was old growth when he cut it, I did the second growth and the passed over old growth. There was about 90 years between his logging and mine. There were still Redwood stumps with his springboard notches in them. The ground belongs to the family trust.
I guess you could call what he did a selective cut because he left the junk that, in those days, wasn't merchantable. We took everything. Those old stumps are still there though, along with some of my own.
Does that qualify as going back?

 

[Jhenderson]

Not hardly. But you folks operate differently than we do here. The landowner I've worked for the most in the last 20 years generally shoots for 60% of full stocking in basal area after harvest. Some areas end up less than that if the wood is really bad and not worth saving. That is the case with one small piece I finished a few weeks ago. Looks awful, and I'll never cut there again but it is what it is. 60% of what was marked as log went in the pulp pile due to rot. Poor soil conditions plus no selective harvest for at least the last 75 years didn't help. It may, or may not grow better timber next time. Don't get me wrong, we do cut nice trees as well, but the focus for these folks has been continual timber stand improvement for the last 80+ years. I tell people the only time I cut a nice tree is if there's an even nicer one growing next to it.

 

[bitzer]

You're right, I don't usually "go back" to jobs I've been on. Most of our logging is clearcut so there's no need to go back. Clearcut really simplifies things.
A few years ago I logged an eighty acre piece that my Grandfather logged when he was a young man. It was mostly Redwood down low and doug fir a little higher up.It was old growth when he cut it, I did the second growth and the passed over old growth. There was about 90 years between his logging and mine. There were still Redwood stumps with his springboard notches in them. The ground belongs to the family trust.
I guess you could call what he did a selective cut because he left the junk that, in those days, wasn't merchantable. We took everything. Those old stumps are still there though, along with some of my own.
Does that qualify as going back?

That's awesome Bob. I love reading that kind of stuff.

 

[bitzer]

Not hardly. But you folks operate differently than we do here. The landowner I've worked for the most in the last 20 years generally shoots for 60% of full stocking in basal area after harvest. Some areas end up less than that if the wood is really bad and not worth saving. That is the case with one small piece I finished a few weeks ago. Looks awful, and I'll never cut there again but it is what it is. 60% of what was marked as log went in the pulp pile due to rot. Poor soil conditions plus no selective harvest for at least the last 75 years didn't help. It may, or may not grow better timber next time. Don't get me wrong, we do cut nice trees as well, but the focus for these folks has been continual timber stand improvement for the last 80+ years. I tell people the only time I cut a nice tree is if there's an even nicer one growing next to it.

That's roughly here too. It really takes the right kind of ground to to get a good even aged stand of big timber. I've cut some that you could tell were clear cut 150 years ago or so and not touched again. Usually high concentrations of red oak in those stands that get super tall with no limbs. You'll get some really nice ash and cherry and soft/hard maple between them. As far as quality of stems goes it seems that a select cut of 15 years or so gets things opened up to get hard maple going good again. You need that sunlight to spur the growth to keep the hearts small. Oak need wide open spaces to regen and with invasives it gets difficult to do that. I think there should be controlled burns in those oak shelter wood cuts to burn the crap off and get the regen to a good start. Kill all the deer too. People get nervous when you say that kind of stuff though. The foresters know, they just can't act on it.

 

[northmanlogging]

These pics are from 2012 I cut a bunch for these folks, enough to make a load and pay down some bills


My more recent videos are taken from just behind the same house this week.

In all I think I've cut on this property 4 times in the last 15 years or so, with the current project being by far the biggest, won't be much left worth cutting this time.

 

[Skeans]

Anyone ever seen a conversion like this?
https://www.ccheavyequipment.com/komatsu-yarder-9167257

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[madhatte]

The foresters know, they just can't act on it.

*sigh*

Too true.

 

[northmanlogging]

think I've reached proper gyppo status.

Currently missing or mostly missing 3 windows on the essavator, Both fronts, well the little one and a good chunk of the main, and the little kicker window by yer feet.

I'be been putting off replacing them cause I wasn't sure about money for the last 2 months...

Honestly been avoiding thinking about it, cause then panic would set in and i would start thinking I needed a day job again and the heart pressure would spike, vision would narrow...

Took a look at my accounts today... $40 in lexan is well within the budget, but maybe I'm just too much of a tight ass to pay for it at this point...

Sounds like I have a project for the next windy day.

To be fair though, everything really important is staying dry, a little of the floor board gets damp, but that is all, and the machines have been well off the beaten path for the last 3 months behind gates etc I haven't been worried about vandals etc... did find kitty tracks on the seat a few times. So far nothing has taken up residency.

 

[rwoods]

Guys, thanks for all the info regarding percentages. Still cogitating and have a hardwood forestry question. 35 years ago when I wanted to cut the trash and leave the best, the local state forester told me to cut any hardwood 50 years or older. According to him after that they were past their prime and growth rate doesn’t justify the wait. Now I am told if a marketable tree is healthy then let it grow and cut the trash. Of course when I talk selective cutting, the loggers want to cut the best and leave the rest and the forester want to leave the best and cut the rest. I believe I understand the economics behind the contract loggers’ position but I am not sure about the forester as we are not talking owls or huggers. Is the let them grow a general change in thinking or was cut at fifty an aberration?

Ron

 

[Skeans]

think I've reached proper gyppo status.

Currently missing or mostly missing 3 windows on the essavator, Both fronts, well the little one and a good chunk of the main, and the little kicker window by yer feet.

I'be been putting off replacing them cause I wasn't sure about money for the last 2 months...

Honestly been avoiding thinking about it, cause then panic would set in and i would start thinking I needed a day job again and the heart pressure would spike, vision would narrow...

Took a look at my accounts today... $40 in lexan is well within the budget, but maybe I'm just too much of a tight ass to pay for it at this point...

Sounds like I have a project for the next windy day.

To be fair though, everything really important is staying dry, a little of the floor board gets damp, but that is all, and the machines have been well off the beaten path for the last 3 months behind gates etc I haven't been worried about vandals etc... did find kitty tracks on the seat a few times. So far nothing has taken up residency.

Only issue with Lexan or AR2 is it can scratch horribly and it stains but otherwise it works great.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[hseII]

think I've reached proper gyppo status.

Currently missing or mostly missing 3 windows on the essavator, Both fronts, well the little one and a good chunk of the main, and the little kicker window by yer feet.

I'be been putting off replacing them cause I wasn't sure about money for the last 2 months...

Honestly been avoiding thinking about it, cause then panic would set in and i would start thinking I needed a day job again and the heart pressure would spike, vision would narrow...

Took a look at my accounts today... $40 in lexan is well within the budget, but maybe I'm just too much of a tight ass to pay for it at this point...

Sounds like I have a project for the next windy day.

To be fair though, everything really important is staying dry, a little of the floor board gets damp, but that is all, and the machines have been well off the beaten path for the last 3 months behind gates etc I haven't been worried about vandals etc... did find kitty tracks on the seat a few times. So far nothing has taken up residency.

Go ahead & spend that $40.

As you know, The electronics are in the rear, but a Basket of absolute Joy when things go south.

We had to replace the main harness on our 200 a few years ago due to getting melted because the operator got too close to the brush fire.

 

[Skeans]

My last computer on our 94 200 Mark 4 was 3500 nothing I'd want to get wet.

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[hseII]

My last computer on our 94 200 Mark 4 was 3500 nothing I'd want to get wet.

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That’s exactly what our 200 is.

 

[Skeans]

That’s exactly what our 200 is.

They're great old machines all we've done is one undercarriage, a computer, a read out, water pump, and a few micro switches in 16k one of the best machines we've owned.

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[northmanlogging]

Guys, thanks for all the info regarding percentages. Still cogitating and have a hardwood forestry question. 35 years ago when I wanted to cut the trash and leave the best, the local state forester told me to cut any hardwood 50 years or older. According to him after that they were past their prime and growth rate doesn’t justify the wait. Now I am told if a marketable tree is healthy then let it grow and cut the trash. Of course when I talk selective cutting, the loggers want to cut the best and leave the rest and the forester want to leave the best and cut the rest. I believe I understand the economics behind the contract loggers’ position but I am not sure about the forester as we are not talking owls or huggers. Is the let them grow a general change in thinking or was cut at fifty an aberration?

Ron

All depends on what you the LO want, you wan't quick cash, or do you want a healthy stand?

cutting hardwoods on a say 10 year rotation you get a pretty good selection of decent wood and it fully supports and mimics the natural growth cycle of a deciduous forest.
But its a relatively low payout every 10 years, building eventually into much better payouts, but you have to be patient. (10 year rotation being entirely dependent on growing conditions etc)

Out here, most things are clear cut, then replanted mostly to one species, Doug Fir or Western Hemlock, so after 25-50 years ish they get a commercial thin, taking out all the little stuff, and making room for the better money trees to become even better money trees, that will then get clear cut again in another 25-50 years, and start over... at least thats the long game.

Personally, if I were the guy that owned 20 acres of hardwoods, I would manage it for cash crops, taking anything low value or low grade and letting the high value trees get bigger, until they reach their climax age and start to die off, or ideally just before, and then cut em all down, replant or sell and retire. Each forest is different though, so without boots on the ground, and some clue as to your timber value, its hard to say whats right or wrong.

 

[hseII]

They're great old machines all we've done is one undercarriage, a computer, a read out, water pump, and a few micro switches in 16k one of the best machines we've owned.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Our machine has less than 5,000hrs.

We bought it with less than 2,000.

Solid & Relatively simple.

And who doesn’t love a 12v Cummins?!!

 

[Skeans]

Our machine has less than 5,000hrs.

We bought it with less than 2,000.

Solid & Relatively simple.

And who doesn’t love a 12v Cummins?!!

Our has the Mitsubishi in it.

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[hseII]

Our has the Mitsubishi in it.

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Our 330 had a big Isuzu or Mitsubishi in it, ( I can’t remember), but I’ve never seen a Mark 4 130 or 200 that wasn’t Cummins Powered.

We had a few of each over the years.

Thanks for the new info.

 

[Jhenderson]

Guys, thanks for all the info regarding percentages. Still cogitating and have a hardwood forestry question. 35 years ago when I wanted to cut the trash and leave the best, the local state forester told me to cut any hardwood 50 years or older. According to him after that they were past their prime and growth rate doesn’t justify the wait. Now I am told if a marketable tree is healthy then let it grow and cut the trash. Of course when I talk selective cutting, the loggers want to cut the best and leave the rest and the forester want to leave the best and cut the rest. I believe I understand the economics behind the contract loggers’ position but I am not sure about the forester as we are not talking owls or huggers. Is the let them grow a general change in thinking or was cut at fifty an aberration?

Ron

The general consensus among foresters I work with is trees are like livestock. Once a runt always a runt. Cut the low grade and weak trees until the overstory is mature. Then cut the overstory and start again. Oaks in particular require full sunlight to regenerate. Low grade doesn't ever improve in quality. If you high grade the stand you'll have weak, low dollar trees forever.