The Descriptive Process

[rwoods]

Mike, I'll bet he was cutting probably close to his bar length from the top. I'll ask him about it. And if so, I will discuss with him our concerns. He has two young boys and a beautiful wife that need him more than folks need a little firewood. Ron

 

[rwoods]

Yes I would have much rather been falling them. It was some prime hardwood and there was a lot of waste and dangerous as he'll. A lot did not blow over and where leaned at 30 to 45 degrees.
As soon as I got done with that tract I moved onto a tornado salvage it was way worse.

By my postings please don't get the idea that I know much, I am probably not even qualified to carry the saw for most on this forum. Nonetheless I have worked one tornado but I am not sure I would do it again unless absolutely critical - way too easy to get in over my head too deep and too fast. To clear a roadway, I cut a small tree off the telephone and cable lines which send a ripple down the line and dislodged another hung tree several poles away - it just missed hitting some of my fellow over their pay level volunteers. Before the day was out one broke his foot when a stem rolled; it could have been a lot worse.

Ron

 

[joesawer]

Unfortunately I have done several storm salvages. That tornado wood is crazy.
I did one salvage after hurricane Andrew that was gravy. It was all straight line wind plantation pine all laid the same direction. I ran a processor just cutting of stumps and delimbing them in piles of five or six for the skidders. Flat ground and air conditioned cab, yep that was gravy.

 

[Spotted Owl]

Question for you guys that cut rootwads. I very seldom have to make that kind of a cut like the guy in the picture. Is he standing in the right place? If he finished his cut and the rootwad stood up it might be a hell of a ride.
On the other hand, if he made his cut the other way, between himself and the rootwad, he might have to bail out when the trunk dropped. Or is there something I'm missing here?
Let's discuss this here and not in Chainsaw or Firewood. I'd rather hear what the real cutters think and not have to listen to the ankle biters.

I hate having to do this. This is what I do. Tape it off from a good start at the stump. Then I cut the logs off from the top down to get rid of some of the problem/wait. If you think a chair is bad in a normal way, it's spooky as hell on the ground. Things will break, roll, twist, and plain ole be in a bad way all at once, usually a few going at the same time, in opposite directions. A standing chair you have some idea of what is going to happen, on the ground you have the immovable ground in the mix now. If you can break it down before you get to the stump a lot of weight is gone and less apt to go wild and with less force. When that wind came through on '07, there was a lot of this happening down way of the coast. Don't forget stuff on the ground when it gets to moving will chase you, depending on the ground, it may chase you for a long time. Be for sure you have more than one place to go when things get to happening, they seem to happen faster when your working this nightmare.

A couple tricks. If you can drop something(big) behind the root ball, helps keep it from having so far to go. Drop something on each side, helps keep the rolling to a minimum, buck all that stuff up first.. Kind of crib it up. If nothing else it will give you a possibly better place to stand when the inevitable comes and you have to make your cut at the stump. If you have to, short log the butt section, take the wait off the top and if you short log it sometimes it will stand up a tall stump you can cut normal. Short logs be darned if it makes it better and safer.

I don't know if this helps anyone. I do know at the end of the day you will wish you was still a drinker sometimes though, and you will flat whipped. One good thing though, it's already a pile of pick-up sticks, so what you do won't make it much if any worse. I feel worse for the loggers than the cutters in those messes.



Owl

 

[rwoods]

I hate having to do this. ... I feel worse for the loggers than the cutters in those messes.
Owl

I can't imagine much fun for anyone in a patch like joesawyer described. But there wouldn't be much work done if we just had fun. Ron

 

[hammerlogging]

I guess Muffin Top would be better than Done Lap lol

Nice to see you 'round.

new one for me, well done

 

[hammerlogging]

I hate having to do this. This is what I do. Tape it off from a good start at the stump. Then I cut the logs off from the top down to get rid of some of the problem/wait. If you think a chair is bad in a normal way, it's spooky as hell on the ground. Things will break, roll, twist, and plain ole be in a bad way all at once, usually a few going at the same time, in opposite directions. A standing chair you have some idea of what is going to happen, on the ground you have the immovable ground in the mix now. If you can break it down before you get to the stump a lot of weight is gone and less apt to go wild and with less force. When that wind came through on '07, there was a lot of this happening down way of the coast. Don't forget stuff on the ground when it gets to moving will chase you, depending on the ground, it may chase you for a long time. Be for sure you have more than one place to go when things get to happening, they seem to happen faster when your working this nightmare.

A couple tricks. If you can drop something(big) behind the root ball, helps keep it from having so far to go. Drop something on each side, helps keep the rolling to a minimum, buck all that stuff up first.. Kind of crib it up. If nothing else it will give you a possibly better place to stand when the inevitable comes and you have to make your cut at the stump. If you have to, short log the butt section, take the wait off the top and if you short log it sometimes it will stand up a tall stump you can cut normal. Short logs be darned if it makes it better and safer.

I don't know if this helps anyone. I do know at the end of the day you will wish you was still a drinker sometimes though, and you will flat whipped. One good thing though, it's already a pile of pick-up sticks, so what you do won't make it much if any worse. I feel worse for the loggers than the cutters in those messes.



Owl

Unless its under a lot of tension, where an alternative might be developed (top back using standing trees as defense) then 1. he has a lot of cutting to do and its finished from the ground, and 2. its not that big of a deal, stump flops up and stem drops to ground, not that exciting, typical circular bucking cut. If I'm concerned about the rootwad on steep ground, I'll butt it off further down the stem so the wasted butt will prop the root wad from rolling. Remember when 2dogs said he got rolled over on day? don't want that! If its real sketchy I do a locking cut and hope it breaks free for the loggers. Worse than that, I walk away. best last case scenario to never forget is an option.

Owl- cool tricks

 

[treeslayer2003]

locking cut......i can never remember when the time comes

 

[Gologit]

Okay, lots of good ideas here. What Owl said about the tree slabbing out was very true. I don't know if the eastern hardwoods are prone to that but our trees sure are. On steep ground they'll slab, roll, slab a little more, roll a little more, break off the slab into big flying splinters....and all quicker than it takes to tell about.

The only times I've cut huge rootballs I always had a Cat available to nudge up against it and put a little pressure on it until I got done. Usually I'd finish my cut, the Cat would back off on the pressure and the rootwad would lay down. I've seen them rigged with a line but I was just passing by and didn't see how it worked out.

I just couldn't figure out if Ron's guy was in the right spot or not. It looked like an awful unforgiving place to be. If he was trying to make the whole cut from the top there wasn't any place to go but down.

LOL...maybe some of those YouTube videos of the guys bucking logs from on top ought to come with a word of caution. Like "don't do this if you don't have to".

Ron, tell your guy we're not bagging on him. We're just concerned. And curious.

 

[joesawer]

Hi Hammer are you still in West by God Virginia?

 

[joesawer]

Bob the eastern hardwoods I have delt with are a lot different. They usually have a fairly wide canopy that stops them from rolling and the steeper ground tends to be sheltered from the wind. The ground is also almost always a clay base they the football is firmly imbedded in. The root ball just does not tend to turn loose sideways and roll down hill as much as it does in the loose sandy soils.
The trees simply aren't as big on average and don't have the size and weight to them.
That stand of prime hardwood had an average dbh of about thirty inches and was exceptional because we could get two clean sixteen foot logs out of most of the trees. There where a few that had been skipped over in the last harvest about sixty inches dbh.
They don't split and rail and slab out like west coast trees do but they make vicious spring poles and mouse traps because they are more flexible and spring like.

 

[treeslayer2003]

Bob the eastern hardwoods I have delt with are a lot different. They usually have a fairly wide canopy that stops them from rolling and the steeper ground tends to be sheltered from the wind. The ground is also almost always a clay base they the football is firmly imbedded in. The root ball just does not tend to turn loose sideways and roll down hill as much as it does in the loose sandy soils.
The trees simply aren't as big on average and don't have the size and weight to them.
That stand of prime hardwood had an average dbh of about thirty inches and was exceptional because we could get two clean sixteen foot logs out of most of the trees. There where a few that had been skipped over in the last harvest about sixty inches dbh.
They don't split and rail and slab out like west coast trees do but they make vicious spring poles and mouse traps because they are more flexible and spring like.

we have some sandy ground but its not usualy steep. some here will slab but if that happens you didn't start right. poplar will bust wile bucking if a guy don't know what hes doin but generaly ya just ruined a log.

joesawer, where did you fall on this side? what did ya cut? i am just curios, these guys seem to already know you........maybe i just forgot, i'm bad for that.

 

[madhatte]

cut the logs off from the top down to get rid of some of the problem/wait.

Solid advice right there.

 

[dhskier2]

I'm no logger. I do hand work- PCT, private small acreage stand improvement stuff, slashing line ground, etc...
Slashing a line unit this summer with a dozen or so of these in the 8' range following a wind event. After the first one popped and stood up faster than I was ready for... like owl and others mentioned, I went top down on the rest of them.

 

[joesawer]

I took a few years away from here. I finally remembered my pass word and logged on.
I am originally from Alabama and have a lot of ties there. But I have worked all over the country. Mostly across the southern part but the past few years I have been north quite a bit.

 

[1270d]

So will your west coast softwood slab off if you cut in till the bind then finish from the opposite direction? In a bucking cut.

 

[RandyMac]

So will your west coast softwood slab off if you cut in till the bind then finish from the opposite direction? In a bucking cut.

Some are worse than others. You can lose a lot of value if you play the tension wrong, Redwood will slab easy.

 

[rwoods]

Bob, I will certainly be kind. I am glad you brought this discussion forward as I had forgotten the chair hazard of these oaks. A chair could have sent him and his WOT saw for a ride regardless of which side of the cut he was standing. Not that anyone should follow me but I have never stood on a stem while cutting a root ball free.

I have cut less than a hundred of any count probably half that so I claim no expertise but on our clay based soil I have not had a root ball roll free. Most stand up - some abruptly. Most twist regardless of the falling direction. Machine rooted trees seem to fall forward more often than storm fallen trees. Yard Maples seem to have bigger root balls and more weight but are less likely to chair than our oaks. When I said I cut down first I was referring to the canopy. Right or wrong I always start at the canopy to relieve stress and stabilize the stem. Though not cutting for logs, I do make as few of cuts as possible before freeing the root ball unless I have the good fortune of the root ball holding the stem free for bucking. Depending on my gut I sometimes start at the top and sometimes at the bottom. Usually know pretty quick if you chose wrong.
Don't shoot me but I sometimes bore the root ball cut.

As usual I have written more than anyone wants to read, but maybe it will provoke something I can learn.

Ron

 

[northmanlogging]

So will your west coast softwood slab off if you cut in till the bind then finish from the opposite direction? In a bucking cut.

Sometimes... but not usually, like Randy said each one is different. Fir is fairly stable, but hemlocks will slab at times, ceder tends to do its slabbing on impact... Spruce isn't so bad, white firs are fairly stable just kinda messy with big ugly blisters full of sap... haven't cut any redwoods, if they grow this far north they are yard trees and no mill wants to deal with em.

 

[joesawer]

One fun thing about the eastern root balls in the clay is that after it rains the holes some times hold water till it is stagnated and gets full of frog eggs. It makes a lovely splash when the root ball falls back in the hole.