The ultimate milling saw?

[mtngun]

I'm not quite as negative as mtngun about 404 chain in softwood. The difference in kerf between it and 3/8 is around 10%, but I don't see it cutting 10% slower, in fact sometimes it cuts faster especially with a big saw in small wood. My theory is it's bigger cutters hold more sawdust than 3/8.

Theory is good, but data is better.

I have posted lots and lots of data showing a 25% increase in cutting speed with lo-pro, compared to 3/8.

Aggie posted data showing a 17% speed increase with 0.325", compared to 3/8.

Other members occasionally mention in passing that their saw takes "about" so long to cut "about" a certain length, usually without even bothering to mention the width. Apparently, Aggie and I are the only CSMers in the entire world who possess a tape measure and a time piece with a stopwatch function.

BTW, I starting to question something you said about rakers, but I don't have enough data at the moment to back up my theory, so I'll bide my time and keep experimenting.

LiftAddict, thanks for reminding me that the 076 requires special funky drive sprockets. 3/8 sprockets are available for the 076 -- just ask Phred45 -- but I doubt you can get .325. Anyway, I realize switching to a different type chain costs a lot of money and wasn't expecting you to run out and spend several hundred bucks on a new bar and chains. Just that if someday, if you need to buy a new milling bar anyhow, or a reel of chain, that's something to keep in mind.

This a good thread, with lots of meaty milling info being tossed around. It gives BobL a chance to talk about CSMing until his hand heals up and he can resume milling.

 

[gemniii]

There is no hard and fast rule because everyones setup is different and everything varies just about all the time.

The reason I say 32 sqft is because in stuff around the Janka 2000 (green) mark I try to tailor my chains for my 60" bars to last this long because it corresponds to an 8' x 4' slab and don't want to overload the saw and/or have to pull the mill out half way through the cut to touch up. This means, using semi chisel full comp chain (it takes longer to go blunt) and a touch less hook and a 6º cutting angle. In different woods the only variables I can mess with are hook (not much) and cutting angle - I don't have any skip or full chisel chain loops for this size bar. If I was going to cut up some big softwoods I might buy a loop of full chisel.

But what if the tree is say 30" by 10'.

Here I'll be using my 42" bar with the same type of chain as above and maybe increase the cutting angle in softer stuff like marri or even jarrah or even get out my loops of square ground skip. In practice I don't calculate the area to the exact sq footage - I'll get a feel for how its cutting towards the end of a cut and then I'll decide if I can get through the next cut without a touch up. I might make 3 cuts - touchup, then 2 cuts - touch up. and then single cuts and touch up even if its only 25 sqft.

Keep in mind that Janka hardness table you referred to in your last post is for 12% MC.

BobL -
That's why I'm trying to get more rough numbers related to something we can quantify. And I expect many of us choose to "touch up" when convenient. I figure let the chips fly. But if they get small, or if it's sawdust as in

So I put the chain on the bar and the bar in the saw. I tighten the chain. I put on the clutch cover and put on the mill. ...I position it and…

SAWDUST!

The chain saw is cutting.

the chain needs sharpening, the rakers need dropping.

And do you have any links to better hardness scales?
thanks

 

[gemniii]

Does anyone here have experience with Solo saws? I'm looking at the 694"s that Baileys has in their catalog. At 90cc I was thinking it would do what I need to do without breaking the bank.

Does it have an inboard clutch? Side chain tensioner? What's support like in 2014?

 

[mtngun]

Does anyone here have experience with Solo saws? I'm looking at the 694"s that Baileys has in their catalog. At 90cc I was thinking it would do what I need to do without breaking the bank.

Member RikBrooks has one that he might sell you for cheap.

 

[BobL]

Theory is good, but data is better.

I have posted lots and lots of data showing a 25% increase in cutting speed with lo-pro, compared to 3/8.
Aggie posted data showing a 17% speed increase with 0.325", compared to 3/8.

Other members occasionally mention in passing that their saw takes "about" so long to cut "about" a certain length, usually without even bothering to mention the width. Apparently, Aggie and I are the only CSMers in the entire world who possess a tape measure and a time piece with a stopwatch function.

Yep I agree, hard data beats any half baked theory
But a well founded theory verified by hard data is generally more widely useful than any one individuals data.
Data is usually restricted to individual cases - so what works for one operator may not work for others.
But if we had to ask do we have a well founded theory based on the data from 2.5 operators? - I think not.

Timing measurement make sense for operators that mill boards from regular shaped cants but is harder for those of us that don't because the cuts are often of a variable size.

I did some timing measurements the cutting speed of 3/8 regular versus 3/8 lopro in small Jarrah using my 441 back in April of this year. But, I was not cutting the same width every time, and after 4 cuts my conclusions were that I could not see any noticeable difference and once the lopro was even a touch slower? If the lopro had been 25% different I would certainly have noticed it and been shouting it from the rooftops. The other reason I did not report specific times was the chain cutter profiles were far from optimized for cutting in that size wood. I still think it's worth a go but as I don't cut that size wood all that often it will be one of those "when I get around to it tasks".

Making a loop of lopro for my 42" or 60" bars would provide me with an opportunity to compare the two types of chains but I know my 076 and 880 would stretch it so much it would jump the sprockets so I'm not going there - or maybe I will give it a go when the new sprockets arrive?

However, I do have a loop of 404 for the 60" so I will give it a go next time I put that bar on. I know this sounds like another "gunna" post but that's what I am reduced to with this bung hand.
Oh yeah, and if this sounds like a bunch of excuses for not timing more cuts then you are right ;-)
I don't know how many times I have started the stop watch on my cell phone and then go to the end of the cut and forgotten to look - I need to add a stop watch to the dashboard.

 

[BobL]

BobL -
And do you have any links to better hardness scales?
thanks

Here's a link to 125 of the worlds hardest - but once again they are all for dry wood (12% MC).
http://www.morlanwoodgifts.com/MM011.ASP?pageno=207

Here is the top 20 - the ones in Red are Aussies

1 - * Belah {Casuarina cristata} 4500
1 - * Lignum Vitae - Tree Of Life {Guaiacum officinale} 4500
1 - * Waddy Wood {Acacia peuce} 4500
2 - * Mgurure {Combretum schumanii} 4430
3 - * Lignum Vitae - Holywood {Guaiacum sanctum} 4400 - Hardest Wood In United States
3 - * Red Bauhinia {Lysiphyllum carronii} 4400
4 - * Tubi - Blackwood Solomon - Ebony Queen {Xanthostemon melanoxylon} 4370
5 - * Knob Thorn {Acacia nigrescens} 4290
6 - * Gidgee {Acacia cambagei} 4270
7 - * Tiga {Tristania decorticata} 4260
8 - * Baraúna {Schinopsis brasiliensis/glabra} 4200
9 - * Snakewood Australian {Acacia xiphophylla} 4150
9 - * Wattle Lakewood {Acacia enervia} 4150
10 - * Brown Spearwood {Acacia rhodoxylon} 4100
* Gimlet {Eucalyptus salubris} 4090
* Blackwood African {Dalbergia melanoxylon} 4050
* Wattle Australian Ironwood {Acacia excelsa} 4050
* Jutahy {Dialium guianense} 4000
* Lignum Vitae Argentine {Bulnesia sarmientoi} 4000 Note: Not related to #1 or #3 Lignum Vitae
* Verawood {Bulnesia arborea} 4000 Note: Related to but different from above
* Blackbutt Dundas {Eucalyptus dundasii} 3960
* Miraúba {Mouriri callocarpa} 3960
* Ebony Brown {Libidibia paraguariensis} 3900
* Curupay {Piptadenia macrocarpa} 3840
* Morrel Red {Eucalyptus longicornis} 3840
* Ebony Red {Erythrophleum chlorostachys} 3820
* Mulga {Acacia aneura} 3820
* Snakewood {Piratinera guianensis} 3800
* Urucurana {Sloanea nitida} 3720
20 - * Olivewood Brazilian {Ferreirea spectabilis} 3700

 

[liftaddict]

so is ct. white oak like a 2 or something? Then the red oak would be a 1? :monkey::monkey:

 

[Can8ianTimber]

I guess I will throw my hat in the ring.

I use 404 because my 7' bar is too thick and 3/8" chain will not make a wide enough cut to pass the bar through it. Because of that I also run 404 on my 60" and 50" bars. The problem is the really long bars need to be thicker to support themselves then you need to make a wider cut.

 

[sachsmo]

There is a a lot of milling experience here so I thought this would be the place ask. If you could have any saw past or present for a dedicated milling saw which would you choose? Also what in your opinion is more important for a milling saw Rpm's or torque?

I plan on milling up a 38" dbh white oak tomorrow morning, if the old girl survives I will vote for her!

The touque thing, Yeah, THE MORE THE BETTER.

 

[rarefish383]

Since my wife is allways yelling at me to get rid of all the junk in my shed (12'X16'), I was thinking about mounting a 12 hp Kohler electric start to a Disston 2 man saw bar, and calling it a CSM. Would that count? Sorry, just kidding, I've been up since 4am and I'm getting board. I actually did think about putting that engine on that bar for fun once, Joe.