Thinning in reforestation project

[Bigsnowdog]

I have a roughly 9 acre reforestation project that is too dense and requires thinning. It contains both conifers and hardwoods. I probably have a minimum of 600 conifers to take out, and likely more. I will probably take out virtually all of the Scotch pines, and thin the white pines to allow full spread.

Specific question: For white pines in multiple, adjacent rows, what spacing to you think is necessary to allow full spread? Would 30 feet be enough, or so I need to go to 35 or 40 feet? Imagine a grid of trees.

One serious problem with this matter is that I am quite behind and will be on this myself, with no other assistance. For that reason, I am thinking that I need to just drop the conifers and let them lie there until they decay. I have heard of others doing that with success.

The conifers are 15-18 feet tall, in rows about 12 feet apart, with spacing in a row of anywhere from 6-10 feet. Felling them will often cause them to lean or land on others.

My first thought was to cut them and drag them out, but the sheer magnitude of the project will not allow that amount of time to be taken. I consider dropping them and making the necessary cuts to shorten the trees so they can come clear to the ground.

It may be that my description indicates to you that I have no idea what I am doing. I am open to suggestion and hoping for same. I have learned much during the 14 years of this project the hard way, unfortunately.

As for the hardwoods, I have less hard wood thinning to do, but do have some, with one issue emerging. The species probably most in need of thinning is walnut. When those are cut short, they still sprout, of course. The question is this....can a person put something like Roundup on the stump and stop it from coming back, and not hurt any adjacent tree due to some kind of root transfer of the chemical? Is there any other chemical better suited to this kind of work? Any thoughts on a best means of dispensing the chemical to reduce health hazards and make the application more convenient?

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[kkottemann]

sounds like a young stand. Do not think in terms of row spacing, but rather tree per acre. figure out how many tree per acre you have by sampling a 1/5 or 1/10 acre plot, then blow up those numbers for 9 acres. first thinnings around here ususally cut back from 500 trees per acre to 200 trees per acre. By taking out your undesireable species you might get close to your goal. I would let a logger, probabbly a whole tree chipping outfit, thin it out since it is very young and does not contain much merchantable volume in terms of cords or bdft. By chipping early merchantable timber you get paid in terms of tons....bark, leaves, birdnests ect...everything goes into the chipper. As far as hardwood mgmt, have you considerd fire? Prescribed fire is the best, and cheapest way to manage hardwood in a conifer stand.

 

[Bigsnowdog]

sounds like a young stand. Do not think in terms of row spacing, but rather tree per acre. figure out how many tree per acre you have by sampling a 1/5 or 1/10 acre plot, then blow up those numbers for 9 acres. first thinnings around here ususally cut back from 500 trees per acre to 200 trees per acre. By taking out your undesireable species you might get close to your goal. I would let a logger, probabbly a whole tree chipping outfit, thin it out since it is very young and does not contain much merchantable volume in terms of cords or bdft. By chipping early merchantable timber you get paid in terms of tons....bark, leaves, birdnests ect...everything goes into the chipper. As far as hardwood mgmt, have you considerd fire? Prescribed fire is the best, and cheapest way to manage hardwood in a conifer stand.

You are meaning that fire would burn the conifers from around the hardwoods?

Regarding the chipping, you are meaning that the chips would be sold?

 

[RPM]

I agree with kkottemann, don't take your stand to the desired target stocking all in one shot. You definitley may want to consider a light initial thinning just to see how things respond. You have to consider that you will have mortality, either by disease or insects, over time. Snow and ice can knock over thinned plantations in the immediate years after thinning too if you get snow in your area - wind can have the same effect. I've seen huge tracts of lodgepole pine that was thinned flattened by winter snow and by freezing rain. In the end you could end up with big holes in your plantation.

Also if you open your stand up wide like you want you'll probably want to prune if the stand hasn't self prunned already. And if you really want to see results consider fertilizing after thinning as well.

Whats the diameter of the trees you want to take out? Is the stand really that dense that the overall growth of the stand is impeded? Whats the product you are trying to manage for - high grade saw logs, post and beam material or pulp? Lots of things to consider before you start wacking em down.

 

[kkottemann]

Fire would kill the hardwood. Most conifers tolerate fire. A well done prescribed fire will reduce the fuel load, kill undesireable hardwood species and open up the stand. Yes, I mean get paid for the chips. Now I am not talking about a tree service comming in and chipping everything up. I mean a logging company. some loggers have a whole tree chipping operation geared towards producing fuel chips for certain plants or sawmills. A well run operation could be in and out of 9 acres in a half a day. You will not get much income from this, but your timber stand will be greatly improved.

Like rpm said, you need to consider your over all goal of your property, then make a plan and manage according to your goals. A consultant forester in your area might be of some help.

 

[Bigsnowdog]

I apologize, I was not clear. I did not intend to take them all out at once. Using a single row as an example, I thought I would begin by taking out every other tree. Then as they got too close together again, take out every other tree again.

This planting was not done for any commercial purpose, rather it is a hobby thing and for wildlife.

My experience with fire in another planting, when the trees were 24 inches tall is that hardwoods survive fire and conifers do not. So I am surprised by your comment on that. I believe that I have no interest in having a fire here. Not to mention what it would do to wildlife.

I am curious yet about the chemical questions.

 

[2dogs]

In certain areas we use Roundup Pro on eucalyptus to prevent resprouting. In other areas we perform "sucker busting", that is with an axe or pulaski. There is a product called Sprout Stop or a similar name that Forestry Suppliers sells. I have no experience with it I just saw an add for it.

Many conifers are fire dependent and tolerate low intensity fire quite well. In my areas hardwood trees die but add valuable nutrients back into the soil. Chips around here are just left on the ground due to transportation costs. Paper mills will often buy your chips

 

[slowp]

I think you are in the East. The paper mills don't like charred wood there. So burning is not a good solution. This info. is for the benefit of folks out here.

 

[Bushler]

Allow 1/3 the width of crown between trees. That means, if the widest part of the crown is say 15', then you need to end up with 5' of clear space 'tween the crowns.

Do a pre-comm. thin now, fertilize, then do a comm. thin. in another 10/15 years, and then a final harvest after that.

See if you can find a copy of:

Your Trees-A Crop, pb. by Industrial Forestry Asso.

 

[RPM]

Prescribed fire

The use of fire for management uses is not without its risks.....it is for the most part a a pretty serious liability to the user. Unless you've got pretty solid fuel breaks / fire guard around your property, know and understand fuel indicies, fire behavior and have good insurance for the 'oh sh*t' factor, I'd probably stay away from fire. Chip on site and blow it back into the stand.

 

[Bigsnowdog]

I think you are in the East. The paper mills don't like charred wood there. So burning is not a good solution. This info. is for the benefit of folks out here.

I am in the midwest.

 

[Bigsnowdog]

Allow 1/3 the width of crown between trees. That means, if the widest part of the crown is say 15', then you need to end up with 5' of clear space 'tween the crowns.

Do a pre-comm. thin now, fertilize, then do a comm. thin. in another 10/15 years, and then a final harvest after that.

See if you can find a copy of:

Your Trees-A Crop, pb. by Industrial Forestry Asso.

It is my understanding that full spread on a mature white pine that has been allowed to spread can be a 30-35 feet diameter. So, a minimum of 40 on center, then?

 

[Bushler]

No. Thin your trees to leave i/3 their current crown width as space between crowns. This allows full light around the crowns for accelerated growth.

You will need to do a second thinning prior to terminal harvest.

When thining, and trying to decide which tree to keep, and which to cut, save the ones with the healthiest tops. Cut the snag topped, the multi topped, or wind burned.

 

[Bigsnowdog]

I am still not clear, I guess. I am not intending any harvest. You might call this an ornamental stand. Let's say that the possible life span of a white pine is at least 100 years, if not considerably more. I intend, or hope, for them to be there that long. Naive, perhaps, but that is my goal.

 

[Bushler]

Ornamental might be different. I'm just suggesting how to optimize growth, for max harvest returns.

You might want hedge rows, or some different aspect on your trees. Maybe do some clumps, and clear spaces, etc. Sounds like a fun project.

 

[Bushler]

Almost forgot, do your thinning in the dead of winter when the trees are dormant and the bark is hard. Worse time for damage is during the Spring/Summer when the bark is soft and easily damaged.

 

[Bigsnowdog]

Ornamental might be different. I'm just suggesting how to optimize growth, for max harvest returns.

You might want hedge rows, or some different aspect on your trees. Maybe do some clumps, and clear spaces, etc. Sounds like a fun project.

It is fun. I don't know that I have thought of it in the terms you use, but my mental image of it is such as you describe. Also, part of it is to make something that looks more random from rows. I want specimen trees and habitat. Also, I don't want conifers dying from overcrowding.

By hedgerows, I gather you mean single rows of trees closely spaced?

 

[Bushler]

Hedge rows along a drive way, or as windbreak, etc., functional landscaping, is what I had in mind. Are you developing this as a homesite?

 

[Bigsnowdog]

Hedge rows along a drive way, or as windbreak, etc., functional landscaping, is what I had in mind. Are you developing this as a homesite?

No, I don't think so. I already live here in another house on a different part of the property, and so I would have to come upon enormous wealth to build a house. I could, I suppose, sell the current house and part of the land, but I don't want to do that.

 

[Bushler]

Park it out then. If you have a good imagination, and some time to experiment you can have a great time, and learn a lot about forestry.

I'd encourage you to dedicate some of the acreage to production timber, rather than just landscaping, for down stream income.

Also, some states have tax incentives and deferments for timberland that might be good financial help.

Check out NWOA, (National Woodlands Owners Asso.) for what's current in your area. They have a quarterly pub. that is full of info. They also have a website. www.woodlandowners.org

If you need more tips on land clearning, ask. I have tons of experience doing subdivisions and residential homesites.