Timber value

[BubbaG]

So I know there are hundreds of variables but here's the scenario.... Looking at a piece of property. 100 acres of timber. Hasn't been logged in 80 years. 2500 per acre. I'd put 50k down and borrow 200k. The note and insurance would run 1250 per month. Question: could I sell 15k per year of logs to cover the carrying costs. Can you generate that kind of money on 100 acres. I realize we don't know the quality of trees just looking for opinions as to whether it's worth the time to pursue. Southern Missouri. Hardwoods is good assumption. Looking for replies like. No way, or it's possible but things have to go perfectly. Or no brainier etc....

I do like numbers so replies can include numbers but i dont know grading or tnnage or loads etc. I Wouldn't do the logging. Would leave the work to the pros so you'd have to figure that cost before I netted the 1250 per month.

Thanks for the input

 

[Jim Timber]

Not enough info.

My land was managed for aspen, and was harvested of all 12+dbh hardwood trees 35ish yrs ago. Right now I have a lot of saw log aspen again, lots of pole and saw log oak, and I'm probably looking at a max of 120K out of the aspen if I can get 20K out of a thinning cut, then another hundred by clearing the aspen.

I still need to talk to my forester about my plan to thin the stand, but my neighbor (also a forester) confirmed that I'm on the edge of breaking into saw timber for the majority of those trees.

If you have aspen, they're typically dead at 60 years up here and will be rotting on the ground with poor regen (no new crop growing back). Age of the stand is only part of the equation. 80 yr old multi-stem stump sprout oak could also be 100 acres of firewood or could have a veneer log every acre - only a forester can tell you what your basis is.

Was this managed timber, or someone's back field they let go?

 

[BubbaG]

It's not managed timber it's just woods. It was just family property recreation and hunting it was not used for income except 80 yrs ago. I really don't want to engage a forester if it's a wicked long shot. But if generating $150 (or close) per acre is doable then I would get more serious about getting help. It is white oak and back oak country. What if it is all crap, what's the lowest per acre it could generate? What if it is just average?

 

[Gologit]

We can't even begin to answer your questions without knowing more about the trees and the terrain. Types of trees is key.

Size, density, access to haul roads...these are just a few of the things necessary to make a decision.

How about market? Anybody around who'll buy your timber at a price you can make a profit on?

Hire a forester. At the very least give the County Ag department a call.

If you're only looking for 150 bucks an acre you might be better off cutting it for firewood.

 

[Jim Timber]

Getting a walk through with your Ag or DNR forestry people should be free. My management plan is $425, and will take them days to prepare.

Timber sales are even more work. You'll pay 11-15% off the top, and that'll be more than accounted for by the increased price you get, and they'll be afraid to leave you a mess because that forester will remember them in future sales. Most owners will only have one sale in their life, getting hosed is a one-time thing and loggers know it. It's not like the owner can choose a different logger next time, so there's virtually no protection from the need to get repeat business. Having a forester prevents this, because they're working different tracts almost every week. Screw them on a job, and you might not get any more work in the area (foresters talk to each other).

There's a lot more going on than "X acreage = Y dollars." Timber value is directly tied to supply and demand, and how far away the mill who's buying has a direct impact on the price you'll get vs the price they'll pay.

 

[BubbaG]

Can I have a management plan done on land I dont own?

Sounds like my goal might be closer to a long shot than a no brainier. Generally we don't need every detail of a plan when it's a no brainer.

 

[hammerlogging]

Can I have a management plan done on land I dont own?

Sounds like my goal might be closer to a long shot than a no brainier. Generally we don't need every detail of a plan when it's a no brainer.

could be a no-brainer, get some referrals, phone interview a few foresters, check references on the one you like, and offer $500 to walk the woods with a running dialogue with the one you chose. then you will learn a ton. could be $150 per thousand on the stump timber. basis was mentioned, def. get some details on that in regards to taxes.

 

[hammerlogging]

also think in terms of rotation age and acres per year, vol./acre/year growth--how about 3 even aged stands 30 years apart. thin thin clearcut, each stand of 30 acres recieving one of the steps each 30 yrs. still creates an uneven aged forest. or, try and set yourself up to get max. acres per harvest, makes it worth more.

 

[carguy]

Your best approach really is to hire a competant local forester to evaluate the timber with respect to your idea. I would look to your County of State department of forestry for reccomendations. Normally they are not allowed to tell you who is good and who is not but if you talk to them a while you will be able to figure out who is the best to hire. As others have indicated, it would be money well spent if you are not well versed in timber sales which most of us are not. Unless you have an ideal situation it is a bit unlikely these days to be able to cover the debt service with your plan but it is still worth a shot to check it out. It will be a relatively inexpensive educational experience to hire a forestoer for a day.

 

[Oldtimer]

Hire a forester from at least 200 miles away. Because of the distance, he will have no use for the wood, and therefore, will not (As easily anyway) snake you. Foresters can be EVERY BIT AS BAD as the worst logger. It's a fool's move to blindly trust them. So get a forester from as far away as possible. Cash money will get them to travel on a Sunday. Tell them you want as unbiased and disinterested a report as you can find, hence the long distance contract.
Once you know the deal, (and take notes!) if you buy the land you can then run the sale yourself with a degree of assurance. More money for you, and a smart reputable logger will LOVE the idea of returning to a job again. It's money in the bank for them.

Good luck.

 

[Jim Timber]

I'm blessed that one of my neighbors is a forester/conservationist, and I can trust his advice and friendships to keep me away rom the dirty people in the industry.

One of our neighbors didn't get a pro to run the sale and was paid firewood rate for all his wood. Logger then ran his mouth at the bar and said he got 10000 bf off the job. He was supposed to take blow down and damaged trees - he took everything bigger than a pole.

 

[northmanlogging]

The other option for dead reckonin is to go to the property spend a day looking at and identifying the trees SEE WHAT IS THERE then call the local mills and ask what they buy and for how much, if ya let them know yer the home owner and just doing research they usually are very nice and tell you what you need to know aka diameters, species, lengths, etc. then figure that one log 16' long and 2' in diameter is only 384 board feet ish and ya need a bunch of em to make a log load... and when you have figured all that out ask you're self is it really worth it? Not to mention the total pain that permiting (if necesarry) road building, and dealing with gypo loggers of possibly (tho not all ways) disreputable origins...

 

[slowp]

I'm blessed that one of my neighbors is a forester/conservationist, and I can trust his advice and friendships to keep me away rom the dirty people in the industry.

One of our neighbors didn't get a pro to run the sale and was paid firewood rate for all his wood. Logger then ran his mouth at the bar and said he got 10000 bf off the job. He was supposed to take blow down and damaged trees - he took everything bigger than a pole.

10,000 board feet is only about two truckloads.

 

[Geddes1966]

Hackberry tree

Well let be begin with the info that I had a fairly large hackberry tree cut down recently.
My big question was is the hackberry tree good for firewood? Because first off, I am
a person who enjoys a good fire on a cold night. And secondly my service is of course
charging me a fee to haul off what is over the acceptable amount to leave.
So when they show up I mention I am interested in sawing up and keeping all wood
large enough to keep for firewood. My guy proceeds to tell me that this type of tree
is not good for firewood. Does not burn great and really smells bad. Well I say ok, I guess
I had the wrong Idea.....come in here jump on the net and find out overall more than not everyone
who commented on this matter said hackberry is good for firewood.I proceed to tell my guy I want to
keep the fireplace sized wood.
So I get charged 100 dollars extra to stack the wood a few feet away from where it
was cut instead of them hauling it off. Is this proper business practice?