Topping for removal

[Marquis]

Hey guys,
I've got a job to do in which there are 3 spruce about 80' tall. No room to drop, so going to have to climb and chunk up and rig down in pieces. My issue is that there isn't much meat up top, maybe 6" in diameter for the top 20' or so. I am just worried about getting thrown around up there after cutting to top off and having it rigged to lower it down. Done many before like this, but just with more wood up top. Suggestions??

 

[tree md]

If they are close enough together you could probably hang a couple of them. If you can't drop the tops without hanging them up in another tree you could probably lower them out of a neighboring tree. I have no problems rigging a top out of 6" wood but I don't know your situation. Too many variables to really advise you one way or the other without actually seeing the trees in question.

 

[Marquis]

I guess my question Tree MD is how to avoid such a violent shaking up top, when the top starts to go down, know what i mean?? Probably shorter pieces up top so there isn't so much weight pushing on the top of the spar?

 

[tree md]

Well, with Spruce you are probably going to take a little bit of a ride but in my opinion, they are usually pretty sturdy trees to rig from as long as they are not frozen. As always, inspect the base of the tree and root system for konchs (SP?) and deterioration. If you have any questions about the root system you can always get a line in it and give it a pull test. Inspect the tree for defects on the way up. Just cover your ass and use common sense. Don't hang the tops up in another tree. Go up high enough where you are sure to avoid any contact and are in the clear when dropping the top. And yes, if you don't have a lot of rigging experience, smaller is always safer.

 

[Marquis]

What gets me too is that there isn't a whole lot of meat to be stickin' my spikes into. Plus they are tree spikes, not pole. Been told to go with pole spikes, not so long. Makes you want to just sway left or right, but I've learn to use my DRT and cinch it around the tree. I am learning everyday, so anything helps.

 

[tree md]

I like tree spikes in evergreens. Pole spikes will gaff out sometimes. Especially if the tree is frozen. We used to call the long straight gaffs pine spikes when I was younger.

Just remember, there's no shame in backing out if you get a bad feeling or aren't comfortable with it. Get some help and live to climb another day.

 

[Norwayclimber]

6 inches sounds like a lot of wood to me (at least for the trees in my region). Go higher and take a smaller top. If your worried about spikes kicking out, wrap your buckstrop 1 1/2 times arround the spar. Makes a nice choke for those thin spars. And by all means, make sure your groundman knows how to let the top run!

 

[Nailsbeats]

Sink your spikes in, wrap your flipline, keep all the rigging in line with the tree, and let the top run. You don't want side pull from a groundman, it will give you an orbital ride that's harder to hang on to.

 

[CUCV]

(disclaimer: I'm not a climber.. yet)
I've lowered for JeffL and Oldirty in smaller tops try my best to let it run. Once I gave Oldirty one hell of a ride in a very spindly white pine. Actually there was nothing I could do it was naturally crotched and it pinched.
If you aren't already use false crotch rigging and a portawrap and you should be fine. Could always leave some brush below to dampen the sway. Rig out of another tree or tie into another tree-cut-and swing.

 

[treemandan]

(disclaimer: I'm not a climber.. yet)
I've lowered for JeffL and Oldirty in smaller tops try my best to let it run. Once I gave Oldirty one hell of a ride in a very spindly white pine. Actually there was nothing I could do it was naturally crotched and it pinched.
If you aren't already use false crotch rigging and a portawrap and you should be fine. Could always leave some brush below to dampen the sway. Rig out of another tree or tie into another tree-cut-and swing.

That's saying something.


But in all essence, Marquis, just do it. If you feel the need set up a isolated TIP under you in case the top breaks that is good. Also don't strip the tree all the way. Leave some limbs under you to slow the reaction. How much do you weigh anyhow?
People have said I was nuts to put a choker on 4 inch spruce and tie into that but it seemed fine to me. I am under 200 hundred pounds but I wasn't acting like it and it held just fine.

 

[JeffL]

6" wood on a spruce? You could lower log chunks off that, literally. I wouldnt really be nervous till your in 2-3" wood, and by then the top would be so small you could probably cut it with a handsaw and throw it down by hand anyways!

Really though, if its a live, healthy tree without defects, if you've got a groundman who can lower worth a ####, you shouldnt be bouncing one bit.

And dont lie Dieter, you've tossed me with some botched tops a few times before as well. Not to say I havent yanked you off your feet though!

 

[treemandan]

6" wood on a spruce? You could lower log chunks off that, literally. I wouldnt really be nervous till your in 2-3" wood, and by then the top would be so small you could probably cut it with a handsaw and throw it down by hand anyways!

Really though, if its a live, healthy tree without defects, if you've got a groundman who can lower worth a ####, you shouldnt be bouncing one bit.

And dont lie Dieter, you've tossed me with some botched tops a few times before as well. Not to say I havent yanked you off your feet though!

Righto! And just take you time to set your spikes in the thinner stuff, it'll be great.

 

[tomtrees58]

Sink your spikes in, wrap your flipline, keep all the rigging in line with the tree, and let the top run. You don't want side pull from a groundman, it will give you an orbital ride that's harder to hang on to.

:agree2:

 

[imagineero]

I drop a lot of trees in that size, and depending on the species and condition I'll happily go up to 5" or 4" diameter, as long as i see no signs of cracking or splitting on the way up. If its a tricky take down with no room for dropping and has to be taken piece by piece then I usually start from the bottom and work my way up, dropping branches as I go. I leave 5" of each branch attached to the trunk because it leaves me with steps and gives me more options rigging slings when it comes to taking down the trunk.

So by the time I get to the top, I've got a pretty clear trunk below me. I don't climb on spikes, so when I'm up there I use only rope and natural branches available. Even very small branches (1/2") will support your weight if you cat them back to within 4" of the trunk. I climb up as high as I'm comfortable with, then rig a really good sling round the trunk. So now you've got to top it. What I do at this stage is climb up as high as I can and take off every branch opposite the side I want to fell towards. You can really take off a lot! Then I get back down, get really roped in nice. Make my wedge cut. If I can drop the top straight to ground without roping then i go for a very narrow wedge, about 30 degrees. That way the top snaps clear early and I hardly even notice it.

If I have to rope the top then its different.... I go for a bigger wedge angle, but still not 90 degrees. maybe 50 or 60. I sling that top up real good. When dropping big tops, I use dynamic rock climbing rope that stretches up to 40% and absorbs a lot of the force of the fall. I get my groundie to leave a nice long run out so the tension takes up well below me, as much as possible. the lower the force takes up, the more the force will be directed downwards and not sidewards.

I use a friction device (usually a sticht plate) rigged off a top sling to help the groundie catch the top. To me there are 2, maybe 3 critical points to reducing rodeo antics at tree top. First is wedge angle. Too little angle, and you risk the treetop barberchairing. too much and the top 'kicks' the trunk sideways. there's a sweet spot where the top breaks loose from the holding wood and you dont even feel it. I think it's about 30 degrees. The second one comes into play when you are roping tops, and it's the point at which the rope takes up The lower the better for me. Too high, and the top is still vertical. It will take up, swing sideways and whip th trunk around. The third is the nature of the take up. Static ropes are horrible for big drops... but a good groundie takes up the tension in an elastic way. Try to pick rock climbers as your groundies if you can! They will take up the shock with their own bodies, almost launching themselves at the moment of takeup which results in a silky ride for you. Even better if you use dynamic ropes for topping, even better again if you use dynamic ropes with dynamic groundies ;-)

Shaun

 

[randyg]

Tons of good advice here! That wrap and a half helps to stabilize that natural tendency to swing around left or right. When the wood gets real small, I also like to shorten up the distance between self and the stem. That way the pressure is not so much side pressure as just down where spikes are dug in. That is where it will break if its gonna while climbing. If you HAVE to rope the top down, I think the SOFT CATCH is much more important than letting it run, unless you can let it run all the way to the ground. Vertical speed line works great for that. Don't miss that tip about going PAST the point you are gonna make that topping cut, and remove all branches on just the back side for a ways. When you get up there in that small part of the stem, the tree will lean significantly in the direction of YOU. Having removed weight from back side, will ensure that top does not end up in your lap. Putting a rope in the top to be pulled from the ground will sometimes set you up for the big catapault, expecially if the groundies are feeling playful. When the top does start to go over, quickly hang saw on belt so it does not do the wrecking ball thing against the tree, and then stiff arm the stem and ride it out. Hopefully that unstable STEM WOBBLE feeling of fear will quickly turn to THRILL and you will be hooked for life.

 

[treeclimber101]

Let it run straight to the ground , that takes out the fight outta those tops quick , and if you can set another line in a tree close by you will be as safe as you can be .... Spruce trees and pines can be climbed til there nothing left , to the point where you can hand throw the top or lower a small piece ..

 

[oldirty]

That's saying something.

hey dieter. how many wraps did you have on that piece anyway? pretty sure i yelled down you didnt need any of them! lol.

hate pines them sappy mofos.


op. 6in and under isnt all that heavy, no? get that top falling with a handsaw and chuck it where you want as she goes as it comes off.

edit:

i see you gotta rope the thing down..... enjoy. been some sound advice given so far, use it.

 

[treemandan]

hey dieter. how many wraps did you have on that piece anyway? pretty sure i yelled down you didnt need any of them! lol.

hate pines them sappy mofos.


op. 6in and under isnt all that heavy, no? get that top falling with a handsaw and chuck it where you want as she goes as it comes off.

That is what I was thinking: if its 6 inch dia it can't have to much weight to it... can it? I dunno, I haven't seen everything but I sure do feel ontop of the world when I am squirelling up on some thin confiers. Usually by 6 inches there isn't much left.

 

[oldirty]

That is what I was thinking: if its 6 inch dia it can't have to much weight to it... can it? I dunno, I haven't seen everything but I sure do feel ontop of the world when I am squirelling up on some thin confiers. Usually by 6 inches there isn't much left.

exactly.

that top landing isnt going to much heavier than a couple to a few branches off of them lower whorls..... if that many.

its the logs landing wrong is what causes the most damage when you trying to keep a pristine landscape.

 

[Blakesmaster]

I drop a lot of trees in that size, and depending on the species and condition I'll happily go up to 5" or 4" diameter, as long as i see no signs of cracking or splitting on the way up. If its a tricky take down with no room for dropping and has to be taken piece by piece then I usually start from the bottom and work my way up, dropping branches as I go. I leave 5" of each branch attached to the trunk because it leaves me with steps and gives me more options rigging slings when it comes to taking down the trunk.

So by the time I get to the top, I've got a pretty clear trunk below me. I don't climb on spikes, so when I'm up there I use only rope and natural branches available. Even very small branches (1/2") will support your weight if you cat them back to within 4" of the trunk. I climb up as high as I'm comfortable with, then rig a really good sling round the trunk. So now you've got to top it. What I do at this stage is climb up as high as I can and take off every branch opposite the side I want to fell towards. You can really take off a lot! Then I get back down, get really roped in nice. Make my wedge cut. If I can drop the top straight to ground without roping then i go for a very narrow wedge, about 30 degrees. That way the top snaps clear early and I hardly even notice it.

If I have to rope the top then its different.... I go for a bigger wedge angle, but still not 90 degrees. maybe 50 or 60. I sling that top up real good. When dropping big tops, I use dynamic rock climbing rope that stretches up to 40% and absorbs a lot of the force of the fall. I get my groundie to leave a nice long run out so the tension takes up well below me, as much as possible. the lower the force takes up, the more the force will be directed downwards and not sidewards.

I use a friction device (usually a sticht plate) rigged off a top sling to help the groundie catch the top. To me there are 2, maybe 3 critical points to reducing rodeo antics at tree top. First is wedge angle. Too little angle, and you risk the treetop barberchairing. too much and the top 'kicks' the trunk sideways. there's a sweet spot where the top breaks loose from the holding wood and you dont even feel it. I think it's about 30 degrees. The second one comes into play when you are roping tops, and it's the point at which the rope takes up The lower the better for me. Too high, and the top is still vertical. It will take up, swing sideways and whip th trunk around. The third is the nature of the take up. Static ropes are horrible for big drops... but a good groundie takes up the tension in an elastic way. Try to pick rock climbers as your groundies if you can! They will take up the shock with their own bodies, almost launching themselves at the moment of takeup which results in a silky ride for you. Even better if you use dynamic ropes for topping, even better again if you use dynamic ropes with dynamic groundies ;-)

Shaun

Maybe I'm off on this since OD and Dano didn't jump down your throat but man, there's a lot wrong with that post.

We'll start with the stubs. They serve as nothing but a great way to hang up branches and tops that you're roping off. Seems every time I look at a stub, and think to myself, "I'll avoid that one little nub" every single branch i lower hangs up on it.

Not using spikes on a removal? It is what it is and sometimes they get in the way but a single stem conifer...well, IMO it's what they're made for.

You're dead on with small branches supporting your weight though, it's amazing how little wood is needed to hold you if you position yourself correctly.

A wedge and a notch are two completely different things. Learn them. Your concepts on notch angle are interesting but I think it has to do more with hinge thickness, lean, and matching the power of your saw to the notch angle to achieve the appropriate hinge thickness when your notch closes up.

Stripping off the side opposite your desired fall direction is a great idea. I use this method often.

I don't know how to officially quote you so I'm doing it this way...

"I get my groundie to leave a nice long run out so the tension takes up well below me, as much as possible." Shaun

I don't know what to make of this sentence. Are you saying you have your groundie leave a lot of slack so that the top gets well below you before coming to a halt? That's what I gathered. My old boss used to do this when I told him to let it run. I hated it. All it does is allow the top to build up momentum and then load up like a mutha ####a and spring you all over the place. The trick is to get your groundie ( and mind you this is one helluva trick ) to GRADUALLY slow the top down immediately upon its detachment from the tree, not just let the top get below you before jerking it to an abrupt stop. You might have meant what I described but your wording confused me.