Tree injections?

[Trpmkr]

Can I get some opinions on arborjet vs direct-inject from arbor systems?

 

[ATH]

If I am not mistaken the Wedgle system (DirectInject) goes into the cambium. There are plenty of pictures floating around of badly damaged cambium from this system. The manufactures says won't happen if it is done correctly... Looks pretty quick. I haven't used it, but if they offered the right products, I can't say I would not use it... HOWEVER, they don't have any products I want to inject:
*The PGRs are best soil applied (much research has gone into this, and I haven't seen anything that tells me to consider injection).
*Imidacloprid works just as well when applied as a basal drench vs. injection.
*Everything I have seen says Propiconazole needs to be macro-injected to be most effective.
*I haven't seen independent research on Whippet for Phytopthora - that could be intersting, but how many clients do you work with that want to invest in treatment for 'what might be'? Pretty much too late to treat it once we get most of those calls. It could certainly have a place in the tool box if it works.

ArborJet: I have used both Tree IV and Quick Jet with Tree-Age (for Emerald Ash Borer). My experiences have been quite negative. It is very hard to get the chemical into the tree. I talked to Arbor Jet about this earlier in the week. They said to drill the holes deeper (1.5"), and use the medium (instead of medium/high) rate of chemical. I was using the medium/high rate of 10ml per inch of diameter. Using 1 plug per inch of dbh, that means you need 20ml per injection site. The Quick Jet allows 5ml per "shot". I generally have no problem getting the first shot in, but I have to squeeze with all I have and still can't get the other 3 in well. Arbor Jet support said a deeper hole will allow the chemical to sit until the tree is ready to take it up - my counter was "yes, but that is only another couple of ml" He said the medium rate is adequate, so I shouldn't have any problem with that. Support also said the Tree IV shouldn't take more than 15 minutes. The first 1/3 to 1/2 of the treatment went in well, but then it slowed WAY down - even with continually adding pressure to the bottle. The few trees I have used it on literally took almost 2 hours! Again, he said deeper holes and lower rate should change that. I have not done any trees since we talked, but as of now I am not happy with this system. I would not have bought it if not for Tree-Age... If it doesn't get better, I either need to add a few dollars per inch of diameter or just quit offering Tree-Age and stick with Safari (bark applied) and imidacloprid (soil applied) only.

I am interested to hear thoughts from others who have used these!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

*Imidacloprid works just as well when applied as a basal drench vs. injection.

On healthy trees yes, on stressed trees I have heard from local IPM people that injections work better.

I am out on the injection thing, ArborJet uses such a big stinkin hole, Wedgle has had cambial separation issues....

On a big stressed tree I would be more inclined to recommend macrofusion, because you are using more water. I have had several people tell me that they believe that this has helped stressed trees as much as the chem. treatment.

Another thing about ArborJet is the sales pitch, they mix anecdote with empirical data way too much. " we had one guy go dill holes in a tree in the woods, he must have put a thousand of them in and it is still doing very well!" "rolleyes"

 

[treevet]

I went to an Arborjet seminar at the end of last week. That drill hole is huge as I am used to Mauget. Now that I am hearing as to the difficulty of getting the tree to accept the EmBen (EAB) I am leaning to staying with the Mauget Immid. injections. I doubt if that system will ever be compatible with the Emben tho.

Like said.....the seminar is very polished and not much opportunity to question anything. Big deep wounds, troublesome and time consuming application, very expensive system/chems (over $500/liter)........

If I knew that the $3k plus applicator worked consistently by displacing fluid in the way in the xylem (damaged xylem?) I would spring for it. There is a guy in our area that claims to have made $250,000.00 last year injecting for EAB. (it is a long story)

Were these difficult injections done on an optimum day for injection....warm temps., not overcast, not compacted, dry or saturated soil, healthy trees, spring when metabolism is near peak?

 

[Trpmkr]

Sometimes it's hard to filter all the bs on this site. I appriciate everyones opinion that responded. Thank you

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Sometimes it's hard to filter all the bs on this site. I appriciate everyones opinion that responded. Thank you

Where in MKE are you?

 

[mckeetree]

Sometimes it's hard to filter all the bs on this site. I appriciate everyones opinion that responded. Thank you

Haha. You will never filter all the BS on this site. I was at an all day CEU session Tuesday and there were reps there from a lot of companies. I looked at Arbor Systems delivery set up and got interested but I am going to do a little more research.

 

[ATH]

..........Were these difficult injections done on an optimum day for injection....warm temps., not overcast, not compacted, dry or saturated soil, healthy trees, spring when metabolism is near peak?

*Warm
*Not overcast
*It has been dry here, but some of the lawns were well irrigated... So that could have been better.
*Very lightly infested trees, so relatively healthy.
*Fall application - which ArborJet advertises. I'm hoping things work much better in the Spring.

 

[treevet]

*Warm
*Not overcast
*It has been dry here, but some of the lawns were well irrigated... So that could have been better.
*Very lightly infested trees, so relatively healthy.
*Fall application - which ArborJet advertises. I'm hoping things work much better in the Spring.

So you bought both the "Tree IV" and the "Quick Jet" , ATH? Did you consider the $3,000 "Arborjet Hydraulic Kit"? They make that appear to be a "shoot and go" application, but I doubt if it is.

We went out to a 26" dia ash last week on the seminar and they set up the "Tree IV" but did not get any material into the tree. To their side it was cold and overcast and little foliage left. The big eye catching aspect was a log they brought out (Boxelder) that was about 12" dia. and about 16" in length.

They drilled and installed a plug in it. Then they injected it with the Quick Jet and the fluid (water....which is thinner than the EmBen) came spraying out both sides of the log from the xylem. Pretty dramatic but not really scientific as the xylem is water bound when you actually inject it.

A gravity feed or very low pressure system such as Mauget would seem to be just as efficient and you can inject ......then leave and come back later to remove caps while you go and make some money doing something else.

Anybody.....please comment on this.

Also, anybody want to comment on the fact that the devastating exotic insect from China EAB, is best controlled by an insecticide from guess where?......China.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Also, anybody want to comment on the fact that the devastating exotic insect from China EAB, is best controlled by an insecticide from guess where?......China.

I cannot join the conspiracy theory here, it was just sloppy globalist capitalism. Look at the messes our ultranational companies have left behind. Somebody used green lumber in a pallet...

 

[Trpmkr]

No I have not purchased any system yet, Iam just doing some research. I have been leaning towards the arborjet system, the city of Milwaukee just purchased many of the arborjet systems. I thought it might be a viable option for me as well, but I believe I will need to do a lot more research before I commit to an injection system.

 

[Trpmkr]

John Paul, iam in ozaukee co. Worked in mil for years, now unemployeed. Thinking about striking out on my own.

 

[treevet]

No I have not purchased any system yet, Iam just doing some research. I have been leaning towards the arborjet system, the city of Milwaukee just purchased many of the arborjet systems. I thought it might be a viable option for me as well, but I believe I will need to do a lot more research before I commit to an injection system.

There are a number of choices within that system to make as well.

Any consideration of Mauget, the first and probably the most successful of any of them. I first used Mauget in 1969 but I believe it was around before that.

Just checked....Mauget has been around since 1948. These other companies, I think at least one was a Mauget employee that left, none of them have been around more than ten years I do not think.

 

[pdqdl]

Also, anybody want to comment on the fact that the devastating exotic insect from China EAB, is best controlled by an insecticide from guess where?......China.

Let's send them some Gypsy Moths! That'll teach 'em.

 

[treevet]

Let's send them some Gypsy Moths! That'll teach 'em.

You think like I do pdqdl, but I think they gave us that one as well. I think it was an Asian, European origin.

 

[ATH]

So you bought both the "Tree IV" and the "Quick Jet" , ATH? Did you consider the $3,000 "Arborjet Hydraulic Kit"? They make that appear to be a "shoot and go" application, but I doubt if it is.

We went out to a 26" dia ash last week on the seminar and they set up the "Tree IV" but did not get any material into the tree. To their side it was cold and overcast and little foliage left. The big eye catching aspect was a log they brought out (Boxelder) that was about 12" dia. and about 16" in length.

They drilled and installed a plug in it. Then they injected it with the Quick Jet and the fluid (water....which is thinner than the EmBen) came spraying out both sides of the log from the xylem. Pretty dramatic but not really scientific as the xylem is water bound when you actually inject it.

Pretty sure I'm not going to be using it enough to make $3K back quickly enough. I started with the Quick Jet knowing that it is not ideal for, but I don't have plans to use it a ton. Continuing to bang my head against the wall, I figured I't try the Tree IV...

Interesting that they didn't show you the application in the real world. Sure, the conditions weren't ideal - haw many of those days do you get in a year

Water is a LOT thinner than Tree-Age. And yes, like you said, the zylem already has water in it so the question is how hard is it to get more in.

A gravity feed or very low pressure system such as Mauget would seem to be just as efficient and you can inject ......then leave and come back later to remove caps while you go and make some money doing something else.

Anybody.....please comment on this.

NO! You CANNOT leave and come back later. The applicator must be present the entire time. If you are talking about doing other work onsite, the same could be said for the Tree IV.

Don't hear me wrong...I would absolutely prefer Mauget for a few reasons - however they aren't offering a chemical I am interested in for EAB. If I were injecting imidacloprid, I'd use Mauget. But I soil apply imidacloprid. Bidrin doesn't have enough residual. There are other pests that I think Mauget is the better system.

Also, anybody want to comment on the fact that the devastating exotic insect from China EAB, is best controlled by an insecticide from guess where?......China.

Nobody knew this insect existed in 2002 - let alone knowing how devestating it would be. Nothing to make me think there is anything deeper here. Everything is made in China, so why would anybody be surprised another chemical is?

 

[treevet]

Another interesting thing that came out in the seminar last week was a comment they made in regards to regulations that you can only use so much immidacloprid per acre and this would allow you to only treat maybe 3 trees in proximity without being in violation of Fed laws.

As for the conspiratory theory....that was a half hearted attempt, I do not really think that but...what if sort of thing.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

As for the conspiratory theory....that was a half hearted attempt, I do not really think that but...what if sort of thing.

I figured, I've heard similar things before.

NO! You CANNOT leave and come back later. The applicator must be present the entire time. If you are talking about doing other work onsite, the same could be said for the Tree IV.

Absolutely, could you see what would happen if the neighbor child came over and pulled them out?

 

[treevet]

We were working on a property one time and a totally wacked black lab puppy drove us nuts all day yelping. grabbing tools and getting in the way as the owners left him out while they went to work even tho they knew we were working in the fenced in back yard that day.

Well he ate 3 or 4 Mauget Fungisol caps and got sick that night. Little justice there but at least he didn't die and they woulda sued me for the value of one pita dog.

We leave Mauget caps on properties all the time and so does everyone else I have ever seen use them. That is the great thing about them compared to these new set ups. I can shoot up a 40 inch dbh ash in about 15 mins. and come back the next day or have the HO take them out (w plastic gloves).

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

WI is too anal with it's pesticide laws to do anything like that, except with the mineral packs.