Tree Service Association

[sgreanbeans]

I have been asked to organize a Tree Service Association by one of the City's that I work for, this is so they can establish an ordinance that covers who get a business license and sets a standard in proper care ( I think it is really cool that they are concerned about who is running the streets with a saw).
I have never worked this type of request before, I was wondering if any of you already have a local group or have set one up, please, anyone have pointers to go in the right direction? would be greatly appreciated!
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[sgreanbeans]

The city is trying to get rid of about 10 tree services that would make u sick if u seen them. They want ordinances to prohibit the undesirables from working in the city.

 

[Bermie]

Some way of figuring out if they understand and apply proper pruning principles...PM me if you want more discussion without a flame war

 

[sgreanbeans]

flame war? I will be back after while, need to go teach yungins some Judo!

 

[highpointtree]

You as a tree service will show proof of insurance and PAY for yor town or city license. decals for all your trucks and then have to get a permit for every tree you touch.. actually trees to be removed over 4"dbh.....its good and bad.... suck's when we need them to regulate

 

[sgreanbeans]

Not sure what ya mean, I am fully....everything. What they want me to do is get with a few of my competitors who are known as being legitimate businesses, professionals and stewards of arboriculture
(city's verbiage ) together, form an association, bring a list of standards and regulations that they can translate into city ordinances, thus making it difficult for someone who has no intention of doing things the right way, hard to get a license. An ordinance in which they can stop you and ask for your license. This way, they are not getting the complaints for fraudulent business practices any more. We have over 100 tree services in our area of about 400,000.
The city is sick of it and wants to regulate who operates. So do I. This will eliminate all the people who like to Top, drop 80' Oaks into a four lane, main road with out contacting the city, stopping traffic for 5 hours. Blasting a chunk of Maple that probably weighed over 1000lbs on another street, that had just been fixed, stimulus money! Destroying a whole city street cake!
Stuff like that goes on here all the time, All the time!
I am, as the other handful of guys, a minority..........because I have insurance. My trucks are fully lettered, Consider myself a professional Arborist, no not yet certified, Yet, key word. Have a License and Bond for 5 different city's , pay taxes, wear PPE, learn from the Elder's (u guys!), You get the point!
With that being said, I think that it was pretty cool of the City to contact someone to get things fixed. What I am asking, is for advice on how to do it. Because, I am going to do it. Like..... How do you form a formal association? What standards can we legally impose. I would like to make it illegal to top trees, can they do that ? I have thought about a test in order to get a license. Like 25 basic questions, requiring members of this Assc. to sign agreements to Arborist Code of Ethics, stuff like that!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Quad Cities Tree Care Coalition
Mission:
To work with local municipalities to find a way to regulate the tree care trade in a manner that will benefit the public while avoiding undue burden to legitimate practicing arborists.

First you need to make it so that the organization looks legit, vs an ol'boys club.

Survey other cities of similar demographics to see what they have as far as ordinances specifically regrading tree work.

It could be as easy as "all tree work shall be directed (supervised?) by an ISA Certified Arborist in accordance with ANSI A-300 and ASNI Z-133 standards. Would your association want to go this far?

Who is enforcing, is it a Neigborhod Services arm of the muni gov, a Tree Warden...?

How economically exclusive does the organization want to make it, which is the idea, you make it to expensive for the bottom feeders to come in. Is something like "Any company working crew not directly supervised by an Certified Arborist shall have TCIA Safety Certification".

By making the companies credential outside of the government, you take the responsibility of developing a testing/certification program off of the people. Tax payers should pay as little as possible, keeping the license fee down, but imposing other criteria on the company to maintain certification.

How do they control plumbers, are they all union trained?

This will eliminate all the people who like to Top, drop 80' Oaks into a four lane, main road with out contacting the city, stopping traffic for 5 hours. Blasting a chunk of Maple that probably weighed over 1000lbs on another street, that had just been fixed, stimulus money! Destroying a whole city street cake!

This should be easilly controlled standard ordinaces "private contractors shall not close off or restrict the public right of way without obtaining a permit from the city. While working in or over public right of way the contractor shall follow all ANSI, OSHA, NHTSA (whatever) standards for traffic control. Failure to follow....

Any damage to property caused by unpermitted work will be assessed triple damages, any bodily injury or loss of life will be prosecuted as a felony manslaughter/attempted manslaughter"


There are munies in the KC area that require license to work and permits to remove. My adoptive hometown words it as a percentage of canopy, greater then 10% cumulative removal requires a permit and an agreement , binding in-perpetuity on the land title, putting a portion of the land in a eco-trust.

 

[Ekka]

Sounds to me "they're" passing the buck.

So what, you go to all the trouble of forming an association.

The city makes the laws not associations.

If the city makes a law that only people from your association can work there you have a legit violation of trade practices.

It's no associations business to regulate a market place.

If the city wants to get rid of bad operators then they need to make the laws to do so, not you.

An association is a registered company, big deal, a piece of paper and anyone can register anything pretty much. Non for profit associations have a lot of rules to operate under, must have a minimum quorum of members, chair persons, secretary, code of ethics and so on. You have financial reporting responsibilities and are bound by corporate law.

You want to be the meat in this sandwich? What for, it's not your fight but theirs, they are the law makers not you. who is going to walk up to Mr Not Licenced and fine him or take him to court? Certainly not the association.

Over here one org thinks it's the tree police and thinks it will control training, assessment and have some you beaut scheme where their members get some preferential treatment or exclusivity ... wrong thinking and highly dangerous to a free market place. I camapign vigorously against them as it's not an orgs place to control training and peoples livlihoods.

If they set a rule that says businesses have to be registered, have to have a minumum qualification level, proof of insurance and comply with OHS and ANSI requirements then it's all done, easy. You front up, show them your goods and get a licence to operate just like a plumber, electrician or pest controller etc. All they need to know or do is set the parameters.

So how do they police Mr Home-owner doing his own tree work? Then that extends further to friends doing his work and so on. Gets messy, my advice, forget about it and tell them to do their own dirty work. Sure you can guide them but it's pretty obvious what has to be done and it's not reinventing the wheel either.

 

[JCONN]

Sounds like every other towns crap they want you to pay them money to do work their. Then pay money for permits. they inspect your work and tell you the way they want it done because they read a Manuel on how it is supposed to be done in a perfect world never mind the guy with 30+ years field experience, so you have to do it their way and if it ends up having issues the town takes no responsibility it goes on the contractor.

Secondly I am sure most towns/cities dont have the funds to start policing these jobs, to drive all over to look for work being done. Even if they did it would be like any other gov regulated deal. The guys that do tree work for a living during the week would be hassled but the weekend warriors and fly by nights would just go on doing what they do when the chance of being checked on would be less.

One township near me has a similar regulation. The town has 2 cert arboriste on staff and you are supposed to get permits for any tree work key word any. Did work at a ladies house she ripped out a dead shrub in her front yard and recieved a fine in the mail. Went to another job big willow near a house with a torn branch hanging over a the house near the ho's child's bed room. They called to get a permit and the towns arboriste came to look at it and said that "their is no need to remove the branch for it will heal over and be fine in a few years".

 

[oldugly]

sounds like you got some good advice

...but I would take it to your competitors also. I am sure they are as sick of the improper tree care, underbidders, etc. as you are. Figure out what works for them, and with them come up with the qualifications etc. for your assosciation.

Recently in Iowa, there I found you had to have a transient work permit to work on the ice damage in Carroll, there I had to present my ins. truck licenses, etc. I thought it was a great practice to prevent the rippoffs that follow the ice storms, taking advantage of people in their most vulnerable times.

One thing you have to remember however, that any assosciation you make with a local governing body is going to meet resistance, and subject to public scrutiny. The reaction of some of your potential clients will be to perceive your assosciation as an organization limiting their independence, and you may deal with not an increase in business, but instead a loss because some people will be very mistrusting of an assosciation trying to control all trade in any industry.

 

[Bermie]

...If they set a rule that says businesses have to be registered, have to have a minumum qualification level, proof of insurance and comply with OHS and ANSI requirements then it's all done, easy. You front up, show them your goods and get a licence to operate just like a plumber, electrician or pest controller etc. All they need to know or do is set the parameters....

.

That's about the size of it...the kicker would be what range of qualifications will be acceptable...Arbormaster, ISA, TCIA, overseas qualifications, on the job experience, etc...and I still think an actual site visit of work either completed or in progress confirms the company actually does the work according to the piece of paper they have....or they produce work to accepted standards but don't have 'a piece of paper'...

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Sounds to me "they're" passing the buck.

Sounds to me that they are admitting their ignorance and asking for the professionals to set up an advisory council. Government is of, by and for the people, so how is having citizen advisers passing the buck?

..but I would take it to your competitors also. I am sure they are as sick of the improper tree care, underbidders, etc.

To rephrase my previous statement, it needs to be set up so that there is not even an appearance of conflict or favoritism. The idea need bylaws as to things that they cannot talk about. Underbidding can be efficiency, and meeting to discuss eliminating it smacks of price-fixing. This theoretical advisory comity should be talking about best practices and how to work any regulation so that it is not built to exclude any legitimate tree care operator.

Another thing that should be considered is what is ordinance, what is policy and what is practice. The idea is that as you go down the line there is a greater flexibility in working and later changing how things are done.

 

[Rftreeman]

The city is trying to get rid of about 10 tree services that would make u sick if u seen them. They want ordinances to prohibit the undesirables from working in the city.

doesn't matter what the regulations or requirements are of any business, you will always have "hacks" doing said work for less and doing bad work, the city only wants money or has an agenda like some inside bid rigging coming up and wants to keep the low bidders out so someone's buddy can get the contract, they don't want this to get rid of anyone, they want more money and by making the new rules and requiring permits for work will make long term revenue for the city.....

 

[oldugly]

JPS is right about the underbidding, etc. To eliminate this would be considered by many to be price-fixing. However many times the gross underbidders are doing so because they lack insurance, taxes, or other legitimate overheads. True you do not want to be accused of (either by nature of assosciation, or by appearance,) as price fixing, however to regulate the businesses to operating with the same legitimate overhead is completely acceptable, and can, (and should) be justifiable, and supported by all your legitmate competitors.

Again to underscore what JPS has said, and others...this is a minefield between legitimate concerns of the city, and the stifling of free enterprise. You can not legislate morality or common sense...it has never worked, nor will it ever work.

Especially now with a completely (and openly) communist administration in charge....the involvement of more government input into any business is definitely going to meet with some resistance.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Again to underscore what JPS has said, and others...this is a minefield between legitimate concerns of the city, and the stifling of free enterprise. You can not legislate morality or common sense...it has never worked, nor will it ever work.

This is about;
Regulated capitalism - realistic controls of for-hire tree care
Consumer protection - making sure that the work is done well, so that the uninformed public gets real tree care. Not wood cutting.
enhance public safety - less hazard trees from hackification and proper work-site management
conservation of the urban forest - it is indisputable that when trees are worked on properly they are more likely to live longer
community quality of life- many studies have shown that a well managed urban forest benefits the cumunity as a whole.

Especially now with a completely (and openly) communist administration in charge....the involvement of more government input into any business is definitely going to meet with some resistance.

While I do not totally agree with your hyperbole, I do agree that the people who would not want to conform will object to any attempt to keep them from doing what they want. Government should regulate business, especially in the name of consumer protection. Look at Toyota and the sweetheart deal they got with the the highway commission a few years ago.

 

[Ekka]

Sounds to me that they are admitting their ignorance and asking for the professionals to set up an advisory council. Government is of, by and for the people, so how is having citizen advisers passing the buck?

They do not need to set up an association, they could simply invite the people to a panel and hash stuff out, they do that here. Then put them on an emailing list etc .... even the standards committee do that here, public submissions.

Why do not they liase with other councils that have the rules already?

Unless the poster has skewed what their involvement is but they have no teeth to police anything, also codes of ethics to police members .... come on now. Over here there's some wonderful codes of ethics and hacks that hide under it.

 

[TreeWhitelock]

First you need to make it so that the organization looks legit, vs an ol'boys club.

Survey other cities of similar demographics to see what they have as far as ordinances specifically regrading tree work.

It could be as easy as "all tree work shall be directed (supervised?) by an ISA Certified Arborist in accordance with ANSI A-300 and ASNI Z-133 standards. Would your association want to go this far?

Who is enforcing, is it a Neigborhod Services arm of the muni gov, a Tree Warden...?

How economically exclusive does the organization want to make it, which is the idea, you make it to expensive for the bottom feeders to come in. Is something like "Any company working crew not directly supervised by an Certified Arborist shall have TCIA Safety Certification".

By making the companies credential outside of the government, you take the responsibility of developing a testing/certification program off of the people. Tax payers should pay as little as possible, keeping the license fee down, but imposing other criteria on the company to maintain certification.

Thats a great standard. All work shall be done or under ther supervision of a CA. Also be willing to able to let uncertified or unliscencsed guys to take the exams on thier own dime. So at least guys have a chance to prove if the need to be out there doing tree care or they are just in fact hacks. I know guys who have hard time getting certified because they started to work some where that didnt do things 100% so they stayed to get a lil more experience and get certified to do things the right way. But employers would deny they worked there or bad talk them because they would be future competitors and would be more credible then them.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

codes of ethics to police members .... come on now. Over here there's some wonderful codes of ethics and hacks that hide under it.

I said nothing about a code of ethics, just bylaws as to what the association can discuss regarding regulation. This is just to set the structure so there is no appearance of conflict, or whatnot.

 

[jefflovstrom]

HOA's v/s Residential!!! Guess who wins!!
Jeff

 

[oldugly]

Jps..your list of goals to reach with this move are dead on. Of course we would like to see all those things. What I am saying is that regardless of the goals...Any group of individual businesses in bed with a governmental authority will meet with resistance and should if the values of our constitution are still to be respected.

As arborists, we all want to see better tree care. As consumers we all want protection, and of course we all want to see a better quality of life in our community. Providing standards for the operation of our business should be a very good thing.

What I am saying is that with the move of our national government to outwardly resist small business, openly try to bankrupt our cintizenry into complete ownership by the government, and to the imediate stifling of free enterprise, is the markings of a form of government we gave many thousands of lives to defend against. I do not believe that the citizenry of our nation is so stupid as to not see it, and I would hope meet further government involvement in free enterprise with resistance.

But then again you may be right in the fact that the public is not that smart. We elected by a landslide majority an anti-American communist, with no governing experience, whose entire political carreer consisted of one campaign after another always to a higher position...and never once actually performing the job he was elected to. And the biggest smoke and mirrors show ever in the political arena of American politics was he did it under the guise of hope and change...and the American public bought into with a landslide margin.

So by all means organize the tree industry into a governing authority, and all tree care will be ideally perfect, the community will prosper and utopia will rule the world. Why not.. it has worked well for insurance companies, credit card companies, and all the other political friends that helped elect the greatest threat America has ever known into the highest seat of our government. Little things like the constitution, free enterprise, and the bill of rights, should never stand in the way.