Tree tricks

[Tom Dunlap]

Great graphics!

Another good idea.

Mike, I can guess what your added line does for the system but rather than muddying the thread, would you explain further?

Tom

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I was just thinking it could control the decent of the first falling tree. You could even stop it when you felt there was enough pull to move the second tree, rather than having this huge dynamic load occur all at once.

I like the fact that hillbilly used a fence as an obstacle and not something like a daycare center full of kids. The inference, of course, is there is perhaps a greater chance of failure using this method than some others. It sure looks fun though.

 

[Acer]

The 2 in 1 looks good for trees that have been coppiced and allowed to grow, or for other multi stemmed trees where they split near ground level. The connecting rope could be installed via throwline and tied off with a timberhitch or whatever just above the notches at each end. I'd like to try this one out in a very low risk situation first...at first glance, it looks a bit quick-but-dangerous, like freeing a hung up tree by falling others on top of it ubtil they all go over.

I've used the jackknife to deal with windblown, especially where the root plate has lifted. If you can make the cuts without getting the saw trapped (!), you can winch the tree out back..the root plate sits back into its hole and the butt of the tree should end up some distance past the root plate.

 

[hillbilly]

Mike, yes there was a reason why I didn't put a daycare center
for kids there I can't say I think all kids are wonderful, put I don't wanna drop trees on their heads either.
The most obvious risk I see, is the rigging line breaking, the
right tree would probably fall backwards, break it's hinge and be out of control. With a good sized rigging line and a fairly small
tree, this scenario is less likely to happen.

Acer, I don't think there are too many similarities with the felling
of other trees upon a hung up one, which is very unpredictable. With the amount of slack in,and the placement of the rigging line one can decide how much strong the pull force should be in the
2in1 technique.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

using a little basic geometry or even eye balling, the timing of the second trees tipping could be pretty well timed.

When I first looked at the 2 in 1 I thought that the feller would be underneath the back lead when it fell. But the slack rope allows for a delay. Nice touch.

Tom

 

[murphy4trees]

I like the idea a lot, though I think JPS has a point in that we all can fairly easily set up a ground based anchor, for pulling second stem over. That said I really get excited to see us all putting our heads together when digesting these new ideas... what a great tool we have in the internet and this site to share and think together like this.
The best example of this thinking is Mike's suggestion.... which is brilliant., though at first, I thought he had something else in mind for the control line's use.
I would think you'd like to use the dynamic load of the moving tree, as long as you didn't overload your rope. However, Mike may be right in thinking that you can use the control line to use only as much force as necessary in the given situation.
A couple of suggestions that might work, depending on the variables...
1) Tie the line higher on the side being pulled
2) "Wrap" the line around the two trunks, so you are effectively doubling your line and spreading the force over more rope fiber, rather than just tie off a single line to each trunk.
I've used old half inch lines wrapped a bunch of times in other situations where large unknown forces are involed.

I really though the control line was for using to remotely add pull to rear tree, by bowstringing the rigging line, in cases where the front tree moves, but the rear tree doesn't fall.

Thanks and keep the ideas coming.
God Bless,
Daniel

 

[murphy4trees]

you're busted

Geofore posted this in a safety thread...
"I'm glad to see someone else started the Jacknife thread, though I have folded down trees I would not show someone how it is done. There is a special cut to use when you want the tree to fold in different directions as it comes down upon itself."
So I think he's been holding back on us....
So come on with some info on that "special cut". PLEASE............
And seriously, I have, and most likely a lot of us here have held back sharing some advanced and potentially dangerous techniques here, because of concerns that some greenie is going to misunderstand us and run out to play Paul Bunion and kill himself or someone else. That said, these techniques can save lives as well. So often, the challenge is to describe the technique in writing very precisely and include the appropriate cautions....
And now that you've told us about it you can't leave us hanging.
Thanks and God bless,
Daniel

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Murph,

Good point about holding back. This is another example of censorship. Look at all of the flak that is generated when an edit takes place on this site. What harm can come? I think that its clearly understood that no one is responsible for what is learned or not understood on the net. Go to the basics. If a knot is discussed, how can anyone be responsible for its failure if the pilot doesn't tie dress set?

Lets lay out all of the information that we have. That's how we can learn to be better professionals.

Tom

 

[hillbilly]

Daniel and Geofore, there was no "special" cut made in the
Jackknife felling other than perhaps the top notch being a bit
wider than the lower. Other than that they were pretty standard:
clean wide and open notches, back cuts were aligned at the
same height as the bottom of the notches and the hinge was
straight.

Daniel wrote: "the challenge is to describe the technique in writing very precisely and include the appropriate cautions...."

I was afraid of writing too precise instructions, that would
make it look like an instruction manual and might encourage
more people who were not ready for it to go try it.
And, yes I agree, I could have put some more precations in my posts.

About holding back.
Yes I had my doubts in starting this thread since the information
in it could be misused. I did not make any (rather cynical)
calculations that a few people might get killed by this
but more could be saved. I don't think any of us do.
Thinking like that would put me in a rather strange position
as some kind of semi-god. Who am I to decide that we could
sacrifice a few to save the many? You get the point.
If we were to only discuss "harmless" topics that would lead
us to...let's see...discussing throwlines, rope bags and what we
had for lunch.
Maybe if I would have emailed the tricks to some of members
that seem reliable first and have them review them and then
together decide if it would be ok to post them on the forum?
A thought for the future ?

Geofore (saw your post on the safety thread), and others, if you think it is irresponsible to start a thread like the one I did, please
send me a PM or even better, post a reply in this thread and say so.

Daniel, John, Mike, Tom and others, thank you for all the input on
improvements and potential dangers!

Hmmm, why do I continue to lead threads off topic...

 

[geofore]

special cuts

I do not think it irresponsible to do the Jacknife thread. I don't think it wise for me to try to explain how to make a tree fold up without you being there to see it done. The guy that taught me had at least 25 years experience and I now have 35. Do I want someone who is new to this work to try to jacknife a tree down on my word it works? No. I would want to know if they can read a tree by looking at it. Can they hear it talk as the wood breaks away? Do they know how much wood to leave to get the tree to come down in slow motion, to spin or fall up hill? Can they do rigging and above all can they do the numbers, as Joe was quick to point out most make mistakes and the mistakes will cause accidents and even deaths.
A real life example: I loaned my flatbed trucks to haul a water tower away. Contract said the tower was 74' tall, accual measurement was 94'and ten foot safety rail, 104' total. 16.5' dia. 5/8" steel from 1914, 20' and rail add in 1960. Using a single cable tied to the top they cut away leaving 22" to hinge the tower over. Two 125 ton jacks in the back pushing the tower, cable come along pulling the front, the contractor expected the tower to fall forward to the come along. I said it will fall sideways and marked an X in the ladies driveway 110' away where I said it would land. I placed a lawn chair at 100'and sat down, as the tower began to tip forward it loaded the 22"x5/8" hinge as the load weight shifted to the hinge all you could hear was what sounded like an explosion as the hinge flexed to catastropic failure and the tower fell over sideways. I moved out of the chair as the tower took down the power lines on it's way across the street to hitting the chair and landing on the X.
Crunching the numbers told me the hinge would fail, when it would fail and the direction the shifting load would take. No one was killed but the guy went out of buisness shortly there after.
He would not listen to me or why the tower would go sideways, after all what did I know with a back ground in rigging, engineering, math and tree cutting? A tree falling is much like a tower or a smokestack to me, I've taken them all down. If I don't think it wise to explain the special cut that I maKe to fold down a tree, it comes with the experiences like the above that I have lived. Even if I explain the cautions it does not mean anyone will listen and do it right. One short cut and catostropic things can go wrong and your excuse,"I was in a hurry to get it down" carries no weight.

 

[geofore]

ash trees

My first experience was helping to take down 11 acres of white ash off a steep hillside and none barberchaired like what the picture shows. I did have a silver maple do that to over 50' a few years back but it hung in another maple and with a chain and tractor it came down with no one hurt except my pride. The chain saw didn't make it, it was crushed. The tree shifted and pinched the bar tight and I exited. No one was going in there to try to get it until the tree was pulled down. No matter how many years you have cut trees it is still a dangerous job.
I don't mean to come across as harsh. I just want to stress you need to practice on small trees before you try big ones.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Hillbilly and Geofore,

Thanks for taking the time to write well thought-out replies. Having a little more information presented in a polite manner is what makes this such a good forum. Too often a short answer is sprayed out leading to more spitting and sqwauking. Taking the time to write also shows that their is a concern about our profession.

Keep it up!

Now that I have a new hammer I'm anxious to find some nails to swat! Promise, I'll start with little teeny tiny nails first

Tom

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Can you fold your neighbors tree up in the front yard?

 

[Jock]

Ever heard anyone say a tree climber cant fell trees , leave it to professional tree fellers, as they are good at that particular job, same as a professional tree surgeon is usually good at working within the tree, sorry but its a true fact, we often see felled trees felled by utility crews, usually a face cut into the centre and a stump around 6-12 inches high, with a lot of luck on their side and certainly no method or experience. Sorry but its true , ask any U.K. logger.....Jock

 

[Tom Dunlap]

John,

That rotten linden went through the chipper in August. There wouldn't have been room to 2 for 1 the tree anyway.

I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for land that is going to be cleared. There are some bean poles out at the nursery that could be used too. That land will be under the bull dozer in a year or two anyway.

Tom

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It all depends on whether they know what they are doing or think they know what they are doing.

I'm no expert feller, but aint too shabby.

If there is someone better then me on the crew I will definatly let them do the honors though.

 

[hillbilly]

Jock,
maybe I should have been a bit more clear in the first post
of this thread.
My boss worked his first 20 years in the woods as a
tree feller (is that what you call logger?, swedish->english problem). That is tens of
thousands of trees that he felled.
You probably could use these tricks with a bit less experience
than that, but they are potentially dangerous and they do require
good experience in tree felling.

I setup the rigging on those "trick" fellings under his supervision.
He did the actual chainsawing. I was on the wire puller.
We do free fell alot of trees that perhaps others would have
pieced down. We do this because it is often the safest and most
efficient way for 'us', not true for everyone.

I've seen arborists climb trees and spend maybe an hour taking
it down piece by piece, when it easily could be knocked down
in 10 min and pieced up on the ground in another 10 min.
Wouldn't it be safer to learn to free fell more and avoid running
the chainsaw in the tree if it wasn't absolutely necessary?

 

[Jock]

Hi Hillbilly, Wasnt taking a poke at any profession there, and we are tree fellers here as well i just use the logger bit for the benifit of our friends across the pond, I also have some tecniques for felling trees, which sometimes are frowned upon , usually by Authorities or less experienced people, these methods I picked up from my father who is 69 years old and still actively involved in large tree felling operations, and he picked them up from his father and grandfather, and up until now there is no record of error, so we consider ourselves professionals or expert's at our job, I fortunately started tree climbing at a very young age, mainly as a past time/hobby, and have been climbing since,but now only on a professional level, I consider myself a good climber , but again some arborists locally say i am scary, and use bad lowering methods ie; a wrapped rope brake etc, but the only damage i've caused in 15 years was a broken patio tile, caused by dropping my saw which i thought i had re-clipped onto my belt!!! didnt matter about the saw though, it was a Solo633 but i am a staunch believer if the tree can be felled then fell it dont climb it.....Jock

 

[hillbilly]

I wrote : "is that what you call logger?, swedish->english problem"

Hehe, I was just unsure of the american-english word for a tree
feller working in the woods. Logger is what they are called ?
Arborist and smorgasbord are the same in our languages,
the other words seem to be different

Best Regards / hillbilly

 

[murphy4trees]

I definitely can see Geo's point.. We all have a unique set of experiences and training and teaching is best done at the level of the student... and since there is no way to judge the level of all the readers of this site.... putting teaching pieces here becomes a little dicey. I have a natural generosity and desire to share and great faith in the idea that God is acting in all things so I do share here from time to time, though sometimes reluctantly.
So back to that "special cut".... are you saying the cut is designed to jackknife a tree, and the top of the tree falls perpendicular or at an angle to the fall of the lower trunk?
That could be used effectively when there are some obstacles close to the tree and a clear yard beyond them.... You've really got my mind thinking here. In the right situation that could save a lot of rigging.
I just had the undergrowth cleared at a new yard and have to remove the small and dead trees, so I may do some experimenting...
I agree that good felling technique is under-emphasized in suburban arboriculture.
God Bless All,
Daniel