tricky tree

[treeslayer2003]

hey maybe you fellers can give me some advice on this one, got a beautiful poplar bout 36" butt 65-70 feet prolly 16" top straight as a arrow its in a ravine 30 feet wide 16-18 feet deep i'm thinkin if I throw it out either side it'll break if throw it up or down ravine it prolly hang can't take but 3 of 10 out of stand so can't just make room in ravine I really hate to bust this tree its a Purdy un no limbs or knots the whole length. got any pointers?

 

[Spotted Owl]

Can you put anything down to bridge the draw? Or a couple somethings then use them for cushion for this one? Can you drag it through something else to slow it down? Can you start it down hill then walk it around side hill? Snipe the stump and get a rolling slide going and let it twist it's way through some stuff to make a better lay?

Always lots of options to everyone who isn't there with you. Any photos, that may help?

Then sometimes things just suck and you have to do what you have to do. It's hard to watch a nice one have to come down and there is no place to put it, that doesn't require selling to diamond match company. That's pretty rare though.



Owl

 

[hammerlogging]

if you put a humboldt in it and cut across the draw it will save out well if: the face closes and the butt hits the ground before the tip hits, and make the tip hit at the point where you dont mind breakage, like where the stem turns to pulpwood. I just cut 35 or so poplar trees in a SMZ crossing the draw with anywhere from 10 to 35' under the stem and 20 to 50' spans and none broke with this method, standard practice. If you did this with a conventional or open face they will break, it all about the butt hittin before the top. Can you practice on a less important stem first?

of course a safer bet would always to be to sidehill it on the near slope.

 

[treeslayer2003]

Can you put anything down to bridge the draw? Or a couple somethings then use them for cushion for this one? Can you drag it through something else to slow it down? Can you start it down hill then walk it around side hill? Snipe the stump and get a rolling slide going and let it twist it's way through some stuff to make a better lay?

Always lots of options to everyone who isn't there with you. Any photos, that may help?

Then sometimes things just suck and you have to do what you have to do. It's hard to watch a nice one have to come down and there is no place to put it, that doesn't require selling to diamond match company. That's pretty rare though.



Owl

thanks for responding owl, I hadn't thought of making a cushion like that you got me thinking.
yea I know you can't save em all but I don't give up easy and wont let this one woop me either.
figured you western guys might have a idea or two workin on them hills all the time I ain't used to
that its pretty flat here..... oh and by the way one of these days i'm gonna ask for a fallers term lesson not many of us over here some of the methods y'all name i'm un famillier [cant spell] with
but i'm lernen. that cushion trick might just work

 

[treeslayer2003]

if you put a humboldt in it and cut across the draw it will save out well if: the face closes and the butt hits the ground before the tip hits, and make the tip hit at the point where you dont mind breakage, like where the stem turns to pulpwood. I just cut 35 or so poplar trees in a SMZ crossing the draw with anywhere from 10 to 35' under the stem and 20 to 50' spans and none broke with this method, standard practice. If you did this with a conventional or open face they will break, it all about the butt hittin before the top. Can you practice on a less important stem first?

of course a safer bet would always to be to sidehill it on the near slope.

I actually do use the humbold a lot just didn't know it was called that. don't think there is any pulp to this one looks like all grade to the fork. really would not be a problem but for this 3 of 10 thing seems because there might be some bird there we must leave 70% of canopy the ravine aint bufferd the whole tract must be done that way,never mind trees are mature and going down hill I suggested 50 % cut but forester quoted the law. its hard to put em down without damedge to other trees

butt hitting first does make sense

 

[northmanlogging]

If you kerf dutch it all the way across (like yer slope cut came in a bit short of your gun cut) you can sort of jump it off the stump, hard to pull off with chair prone wood though. I'm with owl though side hill it if you can and give it a good running start to power though any of the hang ups. Its dangerous as Hel but if you stick with the stump until its committed and sever all the holding wood it can roll along until it hits the ground, only try that if there is no lose branches or neighboring branches caught up in it, even then keep looking up and be ready to run.

 

[treeslayer2003]

If you kerf dutch it all the way across (like yer slope cut came in a bit short of your gun cut) you can sort of jump it off the stump, hard to pull off with chair prone wood though. I'm with owl though side hill it if you can and give it a good running start to power though any of the hang ups. Its dangerous as Hel but if you stick with the stump until its committed and sever all the holding wood it can roll along until it hits the ground, only try that if there is no lose branches or neighboring branches caught up in it, even then keep looking up and be ready to run.

i'm pretty used to cutting um off a lot of the grade here is prone to slab but not poplar I was thinking more hold for a slower fall but now thinking that would be mistake I see what your saying
bout jump it off stump I've done it mostly by accident ......kerf dutch.... like I said need fallers vocab lesson.......thred topic?

 

[woodchuck357]

If you are going to buck it, limb it on the way up, top it, buck it as it stands using a jump cut notch to make the logs hit butt first. Cushion sounds like your best bet if you want to pull the whole tree out.

 

[northmanlogging]

i'm pretty used to cutting um off a lot of the grade here is prone to slab but not poplar I was thinking more hold for a slower fall but now thinking that would be mistake I see what your saying
bout jump it off stump I've done it mostly by accident ......kerf dutch.... like I said need fallers vocab lesson.......thred topic?

There is a loggers dictionary on the site somewheres... may have some of the stuff in it?

 

[OlympicYJ]

That or a new thread on just types of cuts (stating the name and how it works and is executed) would make a good sticky so a new member could be referred to it quickly and easily. Maybe try and limit the BS and jut give examples of the cuts? Just a thought. I myself sometimes get confuzzled when discussing cuts and I know a little but I'm no faller.

 

[treeslayer2003]

That or a new thread on just types of cuts (stating the name and how it works and is executed) would make a good sticky so a new member could be referred to it quickly and easily. Maybe try and limit the BS and jut give examples of the cuts? Just a thought. I myself sometimes get confuzzled when discussing cuts and I know a little but I'm no faller.

oh yes i'd love to read that,being in the mid atlantic we don't hear those terms very often. I worked with a guy from Montana years back he toaght me some of it not a lot. timber faller is almost a ghost here now bunchers took over but they can't cut the big good stuff right. i'm 41, theres a guy 2 counties over bout 35 and that's about it but for a couple amish in del. and a few older guys that are about done with it. dinosours around here :msp_sad:

but I think i'd learn a lot from such a thred.....hint...hint :msp_biggrin:

 

[strangersfaces]

......... Snipe the stump and get a rolling slide going and let it twist it's way through some stuff to make a better lay?
.........

Owl

if you put a humboldt in it and cut across the draw it will save out well if: the face closes and the butt hits the ground before the tip hits......
with a conventional or open face they will break, it all about the butt hittin before the top. .....

.......
..... i'm gonna ask for a fallers term lesson not many of us over here some of the methods y'all name i'm un familiar........

If you kerf dutch it all the way across (like yer slope cut came in a bit short of your gun cut) you can sort of jump it off the stump.......

....... buck it as it stands using a jump cut notch to make the logs hit butt first. ........

SWING DUTCHMAN: A special falling technique which, when used properly, allows the faller to minimize breakage and maintain a lead. As with the Step Dutchman, this alteration of falling technique caused the tree to swing. The swing results because the holding wood on the lean side has been severed. The swing Dutchman does not utilize a step and will not pivot a tree as much as will the Step Dutchman.

STEP DUTCHMAN: An intentional alteration of standard falling technique to solve problems of maintaining a lead. The Step Dutchman is put in play by sawing off the lean side holding wood and placement of a step (rock, wood) into the face to force the tree to pivot to the desired direction.

KERF DUTCHMAN: A special falling technique in which the constant relationships of the face, holding wood, and backcut are intentionally altered to solve a particular falling problem. The faller can, with the use of the Kerf Dutchman, force a tree to jump off the stump. If understood and properly used, the Kerf Dutchman can in specific instances solve problems of breakage and crossing roads or creeks.

Haven't yet found a suitable graphic for the Kerf Dutchman....


How do "sniping the stump", "cutting across the draw", "kerf Dutch" and "jump cut notch" relate to either of these graphic descriptions? Somewhat? Not at all....?



Sources:
Dept. of Labor, Logging eTool Glossary

Tree Felling Presentation.pdf, article by Tennessee Valley Woodworkers.org

 

[treeslayer2003]

hey that's a great graphic, I guess I been doin something very similer to a swing Dutchman for years. not sure how some of the other terms relate,perhaps someone with more knowledge will be along soon to help us out with that. I almost bet theres a book on this somewere out there.
imagine that me readin a book on falling tricks .....never to old to learn right. thanks for responding, hopfully this continues

 

[strangersfaces]

TS,

I've had the logging eTool Glossary bookmarked for some time, but it wasn't until re-reading your thread earlier, then searching once again to find the Tn Valley presentation with graphics that the terms meant much.

The visuals begin to add meaning to the language of the experts here....

 

[Spotted Owl]

Sometimes you can put a few more cuts in there under I think it was the number 3 cut. Don't take them over as far though, make each extra cut a little less that the one above it. Turn the face of the diagram upside down though, not sure how this could or would work with a conventional face. You can really walk things around with this. Be careful doing this though, if you take it to far or make to many the tree will take off on ya all by itself. If that happens drop your saw and run. It's not going to be a pretty affair and nothing close to fun to clean up. The few times I have seen it happen, it turned into a twisted barberchair sort of thing. Keep a back up close by that you can throw into it and bust it down, you don't want to have to get in there to cut it out.

Can you back slide on the stump? Conventional face on your lay side, keep it deep but skinny to break quick, and a humboldt on the back side. Then back into the matched cut on the back side in the humboldt. The angles should match up when the hinge breaks and slide on each other and some times you can gain as much as 30 of back slide. If you don't have enough ground in the lay sometimes this will extend this a bit to save as much as possible. Has to be an up hill lay for the best results, flat or side hill works just not as well. Think this through before you start, there will be no wedging or next to none, when you do this. I don't like it but it has it's place now and then. Be damned sure you can get out of the way, it will choose it's own way off the stump you don't usually get any say in that.



Owl

 

[northmanlogging]

I'd be reluctant to leave a trigger on a tree I'm trying to swing, manipulation of the hold wood is part of steering it, with a trigger your to far away to get back to the hold wood in time, so your cuts have to be right from the get go...

The diagrams are always kinda tricky to figure out anyway until you sit down and really look at it with a tree you're ready to kill.

As far as conventional vs. humboldt... never tried swinging one with a conventional cut???

Sniping (from what I can gather...) is like taking an extra bit out of your face cut, sort of a third angle, Either in line with the desired fall so the butt can sit down faster or off to one side if you intend to roll it off the stump.

Slipping be it side or back... is just plain scary even when it works right, that involves intentionally making your cuts crooked as sin, and usually having the back cut lower then the face... not for the week kneed...

The bit Owl mentioned is referred to as the "soft dutchmen" really just a swing dutch with extra cuts for extra movement, you could even toss in a siswheel on the off side to get really crazy.

My opinion here (well it all is really...) I figure the dutchmen block is more for when I notice that I screwed up on my gun or there is something on that side I didn't notice before, otherwise I try and use cuts to swing em, blocks take extra time to make... and don't use rocks Odin's blind eye who keeps putting that in books anyway... yer face chunk is just sitting there use it.

 

[HuskStihl]

Douglas dent's book, "professional timber falling". Got it cheap online. I couldnt get myself out of a wet paper bag with my saw most days, but now I know the names and techniques I can't execute. Invaluable for understanding wtf these guys are talking about:msp_biggrin:

 

[treeslayer2003]

owl, your really trying to help me out and I really appreciate it, I just wish I knew enuf about the differint kinds of methods your referring to to make sense of what your referring to ; clear as mud, but please don't be offended its my lack of knowledge that's the problem and i'm gonna fix that tho it might take me a while. i'm in no hurry on this stem, got plenty of work in this trct to keep me busy and no time limits. i'll review all this info as learn the terms thanks so much for your patience
mike

 

[treeslayer2003]

I'd be reluctant to leave a trigger on a tree I'm trying to swing, manipulation of the hold wood is part of steering it, with a trigger your to far away to get back to the hold wood in time, so your cuts have to be right from the get go...

The diagrams are always kinda tricky to figure out anyway until you sit down and really look at it with a tree you're ready to kill.

As far as conventional vs. humboldt... never tried swinging one with a conventional cut???

Sniping (from what I can gather...) is like taking an extra bit out of your face cut, sort of a third angle, Either in line with the desired fall so the butt can sit down faster or off to one side if you intend to roll it off the stump.

Slipping be it side or back... is just plain scary even when it works right, that involves intentionally making your cuts crooked as sin, and usually having the back cut lower then the face... not for the week kneed...

The bit Owl mentioned is referred to as the "soft dutchmen" really just a swing dutch with extra cuts for extra movement, you could even toss in a siswheel on the off side to get really crazy.

My opinion here (well it all is really...) I figure the dutchmen block is more for when I notice that I screwed up on my gun or there is something on that side I didn't notice before, otherwise I try and use cuts to swing em, blocks take extra time to make... and don't use rocks Odin's blind eye who keeps putting that in books anyway... yer face chunk is just sitting there use it.

all good info agree with all yea rocks don't go well with spinning saw chain. learning more every nite

 

[treeslayer2003]

Douglas dent's book, "professional timber falling". Got it cheap online. I couldnt get myself out of a wet paper bag with my saw most days, but now I know the names and techniques I can't execute. Invaluable for understanding wtf these guys are talking about:msp_biggrin:

yea guess i'll have to get that