Tried out some new gear & Kudos to Sherrill/Vermeer

[BrianCooke]

I went to my local Vermeer store last week and really had a good visit. It seems everytime I go in there the show room is always stocked well with more and more new tree gear.

I went in to try out a Petzl ID and a Petzel Stop. As always the guys were incredibly friendly & helpful and more than willing to spend some time with me 'on the rope'. We went out into the shop floor where they had a friction saver over one of the ceiling I-beams. There was already a set up on the rope.....a Lock Jack, which I very eagerly tried out. If I did not climb solely SRT I would have bought the lock jack right then & there, what an INCREDIBLY SMOOTH device!!

So we reconfigured the ropes to SRT and I tried out both the ID and the Stop. I went in kind of biased towards the ID but walked out with the Stop. The Stop to me had a much better feel and a little smaller profile......I also was not crazy about the handle of the ID just 'sticking out there', even though I realize it has an anti panic function which does work very well.

Up until now I have been using Petzl ascenders to get up in a tree. I'd do most if not all of my work on the way up while on the ascenders (and a backup lanyard when I'm actually cutting). I'd finish my work and have to descend so I'd akwardly switch from ascenders to a figure & and then descend.

The Stop makes that transition much more secure feeling. The best part about it is that stopping on the way down is now easily doable and I can use it for ascending if need be.

So anyways, just wanted to share some info and say thanks to the guys at Sherrill/Vermeer. The entire time I was in the shop all of the Vermeer mechanics would stop by and ask if I needed anything or if they could help in anyway, what a good bunch of guys.

Brian Cooke

 

[njarbor]

do they have climbing stuff at all the vermeer dealers? there is one near by but i thought they just sold machines

 

[Tom Dunlap]

CAn you explain how you use the Stop for ascending? Bobbin type devices aren't used for going up ropes very much.

If you are working on SRT I think you would be better served using the I'd. The handle doesn't get in the way. It can be used for going up and down the rope. The best feature is that it has a sweet spot in the handle motion so that you won't take a ground fall if you panic and squeeze the handle. Unless they've modified the Stop, you have to let go to lock it off. Kong's version of the Bobbin does have a sweet spot.

In some climbing circles, the Stop is known as the Creep because it doesn;t always lock off when you let go of the handle. There are times when it will let you slip a little. Unnerving. When I was using my Speleo, Kong's version, without the sweet spot, I would always lock off the rope by putting a half hitch around the handle. Before I came up with that lock off I bumped the handle a couple of times and dropped a few inches. Very high butt pucker factor!

What rope are you climbing on? For three weeks I've been using a soft lay, semi static, 7/16" prototype from Yale. I liked the hand of the rope. I just switched back to my 7/16" KM III which is a stiffer rope and I like it better. Feeds through my tools smoother.

Tom

 

[Gord]

Tom what device do you use most often for working in a tree on SRT? Or different devices for different situations, please descibe I'm interested. (i don't need an SRT lesson, just curious to hear what works for you )

 

[Tom Dunlap]

For working I use a Gri Gri now.

I'm going to be getting an I'd though. I borrowed a buddies and it is a good tool. That seems like the best tool available now. The only down side is the bulk but nothing I can do about that.

Tom

 

[BrianCooke]

Brian Cooke

Hey Tom, good info there. I'm using Yellow Jacket and I have noticed the creep you refer to. I figured it was the somewhat slick coating on the new rope that was allowing it to happen.

As far as ascending goes it is pretty easy. I have an ascender on the rope above the Stop that is wrapped around my feet via loop runners. When I stand up and put tension on the ascender I pull the rope up coming out of the stop with my free hand. I would not use this technique to climb a tree, but to go back up 5-10 feet is pretty effortless. Much easier than taking the Stop back off the rope and putting the other ascender back on.

I actually kind of wish that I liked the ID more but the Stop just had a better feel to me.

Brian

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Using the Stop, Gri Gri, I'd and a number of other camming tools on arbo ropes is wrong and dangerous! Look on the side and see what rope diameter they're made for. Arbo ropes are too large and don;t allow the camming action to work properly.

What feedback would you get if you chose to put the wrong gauge chain on your saw? Would you go ahead and do it anyway? This is an area where many arbo vendors are doing a disservice to climbers. There is a likely potential for injury and a lawsuit from using the wrong ropes with these tools.

If you're going to continue to SRT you need to get proper diameter ropes. There are many to good static and semi static lines to choose between.

Tom

 

[BrianCooke]

Hey Tom, guess I need a little more info here, if you don't mind, as I seem to be missing something. Looking at the Sherrill catalog they show Yellow Jacket as 1/2" line. They also show Pro Stripe as 1/2" line. Where they have the Stop listed it says it is for 3/8 to 1/2" lines and even show it with Pro Stripe being used in the photo.

Is Sherrill one of those vendors you are refering to? What rope do you recomend for SRT?

Thanks,
Brian

 

[hillbilly]

Petzl Stop

"For rope diameters 10-11 mm"

http://www.petzl.com/petzl/ProProdu...amille=9&Produit=195&Conseil=&ProduitAssocie=

-----------------------------------------------------------
Petzl I'd

"for rope diameters from 10-11.5 mm: #D20 S"
"for rope diameters from 11.5-13 mm: #D20 L"

http://www.petzl.com/petzl/ProProdu...amille=9&Produit=205&Conseil=&ProduitAssocie=

-----------------------------------------------------------
Petzl Grigri

"For use with a single 10-11 mm UIAA dynamic rope (9.7 accepted)."

http://www.petzl.com/petzl/SportPro...amille=9&Produit=203&Conseil=&ProduitAssocie=

 

[BrianCooke]

Looks like they might be. Good info, thanks.

There is a picture of ascending using the Stop on page 3 of the technical document. This is exactly what I was trying to describe how you can ascend with one.

So what rope would you recomend for SRT?

Thanks again,
Brian

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Hey Joisey, i thought Tobe or Sean might give best answer; but some Vermeer dealers carry some gear, and i think all have exclusive Sherrill/Dealer access, though. Sherrill offers Vermeer large stuff, kinda using each other as outlets? i like Yellow Jacket (bright 16, skinny 1/2"), but not sure if that is what Tom would be recomending with SRT and devices.

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
Using the Stop, Gri Gri, I'd and a number of other camming tools on arbo ropes is wrong and dangerous! Look on the side and see what rope diameter they're made for. Arbo ropes are too large and don;t allow the camming action to work properly.

If you're going to continue to SRT you need to get proper diameter ropes. There are many to good static and semi static lines to choose between.

Tom

Tom always makes good points, this one about higher science/tools in these other (farther evolved?) parallel discliplines, and the clearance a cam needs to allow line to flow through device and enough room for cam to properly leverage down on line as positive mechanical stop too is a good one. The elipse in the cam has to travel so far to have the leverage/MA on the line, a fatter line doesn't allow this.

i always have wondered about also, of tools designed for those real dynamic (for in line shock absorber) lines mountain/rescue etc. can use; and if their higher flexability lacing through a device designed for such lines would be more dangerous inserting a less dynamic/flexible non kernmantle line even if size/diameter were not a factor? Are there construction of line factors that would rule these devices out even if size was right?

 

[BrianCooke]

I understand what you are saying about the line size & the cam. The larger the line, the more it holds the cam from completely grabbing the rope. And using the Stop this seems to be exactly what it is doing. Seems to me that maybe a separate cam should be offered for the typical 1/2" arbo lines. Just make a similar cam but a bit smaller/shorter at the point where it grabs the rope.

Brian

 

[seanlarkin]

Originally posted by njarbor
do they have climbing stuff at all the vermeer dealers? there is one near by but i thought they just sold machines

Not all dealers are participating in the program...yet. Give them a call and see if they are stocking any gear. If they are one of the dealers who aren't participating, a call like that lets them know that there are customers in the area.

 

[BrianCooke]

Hey Sean, just wanted to say thanks to Sherrill in general for some good training. When I was playing on a rope in the Vermeer shop, it seemed that all of the Vermeer mechanics had a pretty good understanding of basic climbing techniques. I'm going to assume that you guys had a hand in training them.

On a separate issue, take a look at some of the above messages in this thread about the Petzl Stop. What is your take on the rope diameter issue with usign this device? I'm currently using the Stop with Yellow Jacket and typically notice it slip a few inches before it grabs firm. It has not been a big issue to me, I just make sure it is securely stopped before I do anything.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[seanlarkin]

Brian,
We are currently communicating with Petzl about the issues raised in this thread. Once I know the official word, I'll post it here.

-Sean

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Many search and rescue regs dont' allow the use of dynamic climbing ropes for anything but a single person rappel to get into position for a rescue. The only reason to use a dynamic rope is if there is a concern that the climber would fall. S/R protocols don't allow falls.

I haven't used many static lines except the KM III. It is a bit stiff so you need to take that into account if you every tie knots. I rarely knot static lines becaues they can be problematic. By the time I make a knot and backups the thing looks big enough to be an entry rug.

Working SRT is very new and rare for arbos. I've spent a lot of time reading about the protocols in the other vertical disciplines. My goal is to adapt the technique with good practices. If anyone wants to read the article I wrote on SRT for TCI magazine, drop me a note off line and I'll send it. In the article I was talking about using SRT only as an access. Since then I've be spending most of my time working on SRT. Unless I have to do a lot of yo yo climbing, there's no good reason to go back to DdRT.

Tom

 

[rbtree]

Tom,

All our arbo lines have 1/2 to 1/3 the stretch of kernmantle static lines...at least if the published specs are correct...and I'm reading them right. What do you think? You have bounced on more static lines than me.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Roger,

Do you mean that arbo lines have more stretch than typical static lines. I think that's what you mean.

Rope stretch is an annoyance to me. The only time this would ever come into play is if a climber were to ever take a screamer, a high fall factor fall. If you don't know what fall factors are, do some reading, Google will help.

Since most arbos don't, and shouldn't climb above their tie ins, this isn't that important. Also, TIPs should have high enough safety factors that a climber shouldn't rely on the rope to stretch and absorb the load from a fall. If a climber is going to work in those conditions, using Screamers in their false crotch is a better safety system. The Rope Guide has this built into it. Slip/Grab to dissipate shock load.

I think that a climber would feel very little stretch or spring once they tie into an arbo rope in a DdRT system. I don't have the time to teach a seminar on what rope stretch numbers mean. With ropes that break at over 5k# and then doubled, eeven my big cousin in Milwaukee would be hard pressed to generate the loads to make ropes stretch appreciably like in rock climbing dynamic ropes.

Stretch is expressed as a percentage of the breaking strength with a load that is a percentage of the BS. There is no standard, agreed upon, way to measure this number so it is really pretty meaningless when applied to arbo ropes.

Tom

 

[Burnham]

Tom,

We have touched on this another time, I believe. I'll point out that for climbers such as myself who often work above their tie-in, dynamic line use is more about protecting their oh, so, fragile body from shock loads rather than softening the potential load on the anchor.

Tree access lines are another matter, of course, and I completely agree that stretch can be both an annoyance and an energy eater in those applications.

 

[seanlarkin]

Thanks to Brian Cooke for reminding me to post. We did hear back from Petzl, and while I didn't see their response, Tobe gave me a note with the approved-for-use rope dimensions that we will be putting in our 2004 catalogs.

Stop 9-12mm
GriGri 10-11mm
I'D /small/ 10-11.5mm
I'D /large/ 11.5-13mm