Twidder

[Ed Roland]

As you know, WW, I am a fan of this technique, but I don't believe the 160 deg temperatures in farenheit you stated would be sufficient. Where this would kill the contacted pathogen, it would not, IMO, sufficiently alter the remaining wood structure to prevent reinfection. Pathogens, by the hundreds, are ubiquitous with the phyllosphere. They will be there to some degree or another and can become opportunistic (apparently on a whim) so my thought would be to alter the freshly excised tissues with fire hardening.

Not exactly a new concept. Prehistoric man had this figured out, even witout citations.

At approximately 300 deg F, cellulose starts to degrade. That's the little puff of smoke you see. Lignin, being a polymer, folds back on itself and bonds with the other remaining chemicals available within the tree (phenols, resins, etc). This creates a zone of altered cells much less suitable for infection.

So in the case of localized infections this technique may hold a lot of promise.

Dave

I hear you Dave. Altering the wood under the canker to be less hospitable for reinfection may hold a lot of promise. But, do we want to be so intrusive and damaging to the tree by introducing 300 deg f when 130-160 deg f will sufficiently treat these localized areas?

SOLARIZATION OF PEAR AND APPLE TREES TO ERADICATE BACTERIA IN FIRE BLIGHT CANKERS @ ://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=411_68 "raised temperatures inside the tents to 56°C, resulting in complete eradication of the pathogen and death of tops of the trees."
56 c = 132.8 f

If a polymer may be the answer then perhaps we can try treating the excision with our samples of sodium silicate.

 

[D Mc]

Thanks for the warning, Ed. I think giving this new information, I will take great pains to try not to bring the entire tree's temperature up to 300 deg F. :jawdrop:

The cool thing about this treatment is when working with a propane/butane torch, the temperature rise will be quick but not deep. Don't forget cellulose is an excellent insulator. Like most things, successful technique will take experimentation and practice due to variations within species and environment.

I'm excited to try the silica polymer. If a wound dressing is to work, it should become part of the tree, so if not this polymer, possibly another.

Dave

 

[treevet]

but it begs the question....are we keeping the pathogen in or are we keeping the pathogen out

http://www.treebandage.com/

This was the impetus for the red bud and ash examples above. Why is not some college student or other researcher out there wounding a hundred trees a hundred times for each species then in the injury-infection aftermath timing by culture each one as to time of infection, type of pathogen, succession and virulence of pathogen etc etc? Then we base our treatments or abstention of treatment on this.

Computers have to make all this much more plausible than days of yore.

 

[treevet]

When I was a kid just 20 years old in 1969 I noticed how growth around cavities often curled inward and hardly got any closure. I did not know anything but thought if I took a chisel to the live tissue around the circumference and created a ledge back to the inert wood then I could tack some pre shaped sheet metal on that ledge and it would allow the growth a surface to close on.

I remember noticing that the tree had made a few attempts at closure outside of the cavity and failed but this made no sense to me so I ignored it. In reality it was associated with Verticillium wilt and the repeated attempts were killed by the pathogen. I felt real bad as the tree continued to decline despite my good intentions when if I had more knowledge I probably would have tried another subject.

I was probably exposing vulnerable wood to the pathogen (that was not the tree's attempt with wall 4) and also adding to the trees demise by challenging defense stores.

I think I am going to try the burner method this year and I have already decided to try a pollard and planted a subject.

 

[Ed Roland]

Thanks for the warning, Ed. I think giving this new information, I will take great pains to try not to bring the entire tree's temperature up to 300 deg F. :jawdrop: Dave

ok, good. Because 300 degrees f would be over 2wice the amount of heat needed (dose) to treat the entire tree. Perhaps we could debate the temperature needed to cause transformation of the underlying wood if we disagreed. We do not, btw.

If the purpose of treating the excision with h2o2 or bleach is to remove populations at that site then heat treatment, apparently, accomplishes the very same end.
The difference between 300 degrees f at that site and 150 degrees f is from the variable of time. Holding the torch on the wound longer to achieve 300 degrees will kill populations yet cause more wounding with only the possible ancillary benefit of altering underlying wood into a state less favorable to attack while holding the torch on the wound long enough to acheive 150 degrees f would likely be only as damaging as the chemical oxidizers. This would offer a management strategy for those diseases that are applicable.

Why is not some college student or other researcher out there wounding a hundred trees a hundred times for each species then in the injury-infection aftermath timing by culture each one as to time of infection, type of pathogen, succession and virulence of pathogen etc etc? Then we base our treatments or abstention of treatment on this.

Computers have to make all this much more plausible than days of yore.

It would be an interesting read.

 

[treevet]

Maybe something on the order of a branding iron where the temperature could be quantified with a thermometer, the heat could be sustained electrically or replenished with fire, and splatter of flame would be eliminated so as not to cause collateral damage.

 

[Ed Roland]

How about a cordless heat gun with variable settings

http://dobest.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008825643466/pdtl/Heat-gun/1023323842/Heat-Gun.htm

 

[treevet]

That looks like a winner.

You gonna buy one of those Wraptors you tested Ed?

I am going to demo one in a couple of weeks.

 

[Ed Roland]

Yes. Yes i am. One day I will have the money. Seems like i always save up for these things i want only to have my wife at the last moment suggest a better use for the money.

Don't try it unless you are prepared to buy it. You will want it. My only complaint was having that little motor screaming in my face. Such a small thing really when you look at how useful the tool is.

 

[treevet]

Yes. Yes i am. One day I will have the money. Seems like i always save up for these things i want only to have my wife at the last moment suggest a better use for the money.

Don't try it unless you are prepared to buy it. You will want it. My only complaint was having that little motor screaming in my face. Such a small thing really when you look at how useful the tool is.

I think it is the future. People will look back at the way we get up trees now as archaic. Prices will come down when production increases.

I don't want to ask him yet but I bet you can get a demo for a good deal less than the 25 hundred and he has a bunch of them. I am def. gonna buy one and I guess Guy already did.

 

[treevet]

I was just talking with Reg Coates on another thread and he sent this link to a disease that has been killing a lot of Horse Chestnuts in his country. I asked him if anyone tries to excise the cankers.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/fr/INFD-6KYBGV

 

[treevet]

From the article, this pict. looks like it could be localized and it seems slow moving from the description in the article. Interesting that it was mis diagnosed at first....

 

[D Mc]

Perhaps we could debate the temperature needed to cause transformation of the underlying wood if we disagreed. We do not, btw.

If the purpose of treating the excision with h2o2 or bleach is to remove populations at that site then heat treatment, apparently, accomplishes the very same end.
The difference between 300 degrees f at that site and 150 degrees f is from the variable of time. Holding the torch on the wound longer to achieve 300 degrees will kill populations yet cause more wounding ...

Good points, Ed. My thoughts on this are slightly different in their direction and interpretation of the alterations. What interests me is in fact the "possibility" of cell alteration. I see this as a potentially greater occurence than the viewpoint of just cellular death.

Trees are vast chemical factories. The production of which only a portion are actually used for growth. Many of these chemicals have been extracted for use in many products. A large portion of these are altered by heat. So in applying heat as a catalyst, cellular chemical structure "might" be altered in a way that is beneficial to the tree.

Fire-hardening does occur to wood. Heat does kill pathogens. Heat also alters cellular structure. Now to figure out dose and application method.

Dave

 

[Ed Roland]

Good points, Ed. My thoughts on this are slightly different in their direction and interpretation of the alterations. What interests me is in fact the "possibility" of cell alteration. I see this as a potentially greater occurence than the viewpoint of just cellular death.

Trees are vast chemical factories. The production of which only a portion are actually used for growth. Many of these chemicals have been extracted for use in many products. A large portion of these are altered by heat. So in applying heat as a catalyst, cellular chemical structure "might" be altered in a way that is beneficial to the tree.

Fire-hardening does occur to wood. Heat does kill pathogens. Heat also alters cellular structure. Now to figure out dose and application method.

Dave

Could cauterization be a viable form of "wound dressing"?

 

[treeseer]

UK govt article did not mention the garlic treatment that reports success.

They do mention excising alone but bring up more potential problems than potential solutions. No mention of cauterization or sanitation, just cut limbs or cut trees, with a VERY sketchy protocol for deciding these ultimate actions.

Same forestry-derived scorched-earth programs used on amenity trees as we are used to seeing in the US. Disappointing.

 

[Urban Forester]

Given that heat does sound viable, do we have a consensus on the temp that is needed? If 160 kills the pathogen (confirmed?) w/o affecting vascular tissue, then why use 300? OR, has 300 been used w/success w/o damage?