Underbidding $&^%%$!!!

[tree md]

WTF is up with all the underbidding idiots out here today. I swear, work is still going for a third less than it was 2 or 3 years ago... Even in storm damaged areas that is saturated with work you got fricking idiots out here trying to work for peanuts. I hope they freaking choke to death on sawdust from their poulan wildthing!!!!

 

[Rftreeman]

better get used to it cause it's only gonna get worst............

 

[tree MDS]

WTF is up with all the underbidding idiots out here today. I swear, work is still going for a third less than it was 2 or 3 years ago... Even in storm damaged areas that is saturated with work you got fricking idiots out here trying to work for peanuts. I hope they freaking choke to death on sawdust from their poulan wildthing!!!!

Around here it seems like even the "real" tree services with actual equipment, have given up and just started working for ####. I get the feeling I would have to lower my rates $300 a day to compete... there's no respect for the business anymore... at least that's the way it seems to me.

 

[husabud]

Around here it seems like even the "real" tree services with actual equipment, have given up and just started working for ####. I get the feeling I would have to lower my rates $300 a day to compete... there's no respect for the business anymore... at least that's the way it seems to me.

I've got a local prick here that is all over the board. If he knows I've quoted the job he cuts the hell out of me ( new kid on the block disorder, little does he know I've been doing this 20 years) if not, he is the highest guy around. So I started bidding accordingly, usually too low, and all of the sudden he is higher than everyone and taking everything. You just can't count on anything or anybody these days.

Better yet, there isn't another tree company around, less the two I work with often, whose big headed small minded employees will wave when you pass them. I guess that's why I have big shoulders, so all the ####e will roll off my back.

 

[carveit]

The Tree Care business is overwhelmed with people who are victims of the economic downturn, unemployed and willing to work for an honest dollar. We need to realize that these folks have every right to put food on their table as we (the lifers) do. IMO the industry is a perfect alternative to sitting at home whining about how miserable life is because of a lay off or what have you. We need to encourage new people to become involved especially when almost anyone can plant new trees. If we take this opportunity to embrace the new wave of people willing to work with us, then our industry could achieve the highest goals our forefathers set in the beginning of this Industrial boom now entering a new era.
We all can agree that the $$$ is not really there for eco-system regenerative work, but with new minds and fresh legs we must adapt and remember we also have the responsibility as Arborists to educate and research. At some point I knew my job would get challenging and this seems to be a real challenge for me as well (accepting new guys in the biz), i suggest we all work together quickly to adjust accordingly, shuffle over and make room for the others. Good luck! and if its no good to burn then carve it!

 

[tree md]

Not trying be be too much of a smart ass but what planet are you from???

I did get the job that these ####ers underbid the #### out of after I gave a reasonable estimate but I had to match their price. I get to go block and lower every piece of a large pine and two medium hardwoods tomorrow for $700 gross, after I pay help... I don't know about you but I don't like to work for less than the amount of my deductible when I am removing a large tree from over a house. I would have walked but I figured it would be better to bite the bullet and match these freaking yo yo's bid. It was basically a strategic move to deny them work. Homeowner told me what they bid but said that he would rather go with me if I could match their price...

 

[ropensaddle]

I try to stay away from matching price and set myself apart from yahoos bidding too cheap but its tough now days for sure.

 

[carveit]

hey man I hear ya, but 700 gross is a good day, is actually more than alot of people make. So the client has a new card to play, just try and figure a way to counter that card, seems to me you played it when they willingly told you the price you need to match. It doesnt get much more simpler than that. Could have been worse you know, you could have never heard from him again. I gladly will take any job for any money. I must undercut my competitors or i will lose completely. Just look after your saws a little better, maybe sharpen the old chains instead of to buy a new one and stuff. I dont think it was very nice to insinuate I am from another planet Mr. Tree MD, but suit yourself if you think these newbies are going away, saddle up partner cause I think its going to get worst too just my feelings on that.

 

[limbwalker54]

opcorn:
So.....can I say that on a micro-economic scale, in our area, things are looking up......??? People are calling....we're trying to book winter work now....

 

[Ax-man]

hey man I hear ya, but 700 gross is a good day, is actually more than alot of people make. So the client has a new card to play, just try and figure a way to counter that card, seems to me you played it when they willingly told you the price you need to match. It doesnt get much more simpler than that. Could have been worse you know, you could have never heard from him again. I gladly will take any job for any money. I must undercut my competitors or i will lose completely. Just look after your saws a little better, maybe sharpen the old chains instead of to buy a new one and stuff. I dont think it was very nice to insinuate I am from another planet Mr. Tree MD, but suit yourself if you think these newbies are going away, saddle up partner cause I think its going to get worst too just my feelings on that.

No one wins the race to the bottom. We need to be businessmen first,being arborists comes in second and being a chainsaw saw operator last. The quicker this happens then the industry as a whole will change for the better instead of all this underbidding crap that is going on which is dragging the whole industry down to the poverty level.

 

[TreeAce]

Seems to me , the days of getting rich doing tree work are mostly over. I know that around here there is enough work to go around but you wont get big money for it. An old timer I know who is nearing the end of his career told me ..."there is enough work for everyone who WANTS to do it". Also keep in mind that unless you have a darn big outfit, which few here (AS) do i think, then there are always "bigger" fish looking down there nose at you. So..with respect to treeMD, whom I do respect from his posts, ...get used to it and dont get in over your head with bills so that you can live on 2 or 3k a week gross. Should be easy I would think. But I may not set my sites high enough.

 

[treeman75]

hey man I hear ya, but 700 gross is a good day, is actually more than alot of people make. So the client has a new card to play, just try and figure a way to counter that card, seems to me you played it when they willingly told you the price you need to match. It doesnt get much more simpler than that. Could have been worse you know, you could have never heard from him again. I gladly will take any job for any money. I must undercut my competitors or i will lose completely. Just look after your saws a little better, maybe sharpen the old chains instead of to buy a new one and stuff. I dont think it was very nice to insinuate I am from another planet Mr. Tree MD, but suit yourself if you think these newbies are going away, saddle up partner cause I think its going to get worst too just my feelings on that.

Thats the problem with people bidding cheap. They bid a job for 700 and think man thats good money for a day or two of work when it takes other people a week or two to make that. When you have equipment and over head you have to know what it takes to keep you rolling. When I deal with situations like this I sell quality work and tell the home owners it takes more than a chainsaw and a pickup. I have no problem walking away from a job you cant get all of them.

 

[Bigus Termitius]

Thats the problem with people bidding cheap. They bid a job for 700 and think man thats good money for a day or two of work when it takes other people a week or two to make that. When you have equipment and over head you have to know what it takes to keep you rolling. When I deal with situations like this I sell quality work and tell the home owners it takes more than a chainsaw and a pickup. I have no problem walking away from a job you cant get all of them.

Right. Nor want them all....I say let the little fish struggle with the tadpoles...keeps them busy while I get the better jobs. I absolutely refuse to price match. To me it's price dictation, why would I let an illegitamate novice bid it for me, or a HO manipulate and take advantage of the situation? Let him have the underbid job, while I move on to a real one. Gives him an opportunity to blow it for pennies on the dollar. Best way to let them hang themselves isn't to take the rope from them, but rather to give them enough.

I understand the other stategy, but it gives them credibility where they have none, and makes us look like we are asking too much to start with. If I bid at 900 and the ho says dingleberry said 600, it might not be for the same amount of work anyway. Nevertheless I will come down a bit, but it will be for less work, ie. leave the wood, no clean up, whatever.

And why do the HOs get upset when I say no and walk? They are supposedly getting a better deal with the other guy, right? Or, are they?

 

[sgreanbeans]

Again, with no regulation on who get a license, no testing, no requirements other than money, and no one to enforce the rules, it will continue. I know for a fact, that in San Diego, this does not happen, if you are in business there, you have the credentials. If not, they will shut you down, fast. Ever notice that Jeffrey never complains about this, he don't have to, as he works in an area that considers Arboriculture an actual profession. This the reason that after 4 more years of school with my youngest, when he is done, back to Caleafus I go. Jeff, Mikey G take note!! Dana is coming too! Most other places, your just another dude with a saw in the eyes of the general public. You will never get rid of the weekend warrior or R.O.W. side work, but the full time hacker outfits could be dealt with. I try and educate every person I meet, while out and about doing bids and such, on why it is important to hire a pro vs hack. Safety and proper tree care are the main topics. Never price.

Just yesterday, we drove up on a new outfit. "Treeriffic Tree Service, Topping Specialist" was on the side, of the very nice trucks. They look new and I have never, ever seen these guys. Now I wonder, if they have a license, and they probably do, I bet the chick behind the counter at the city got a kick out of the name and made nice with them. They were sitting in the yard of a guy who I bid some work for a couple of months ago. Parked like they belong there, told me that he worked for his uncles tree service when he was a kid, topping trees and such. He worked at at some plant and told me that he had to wait on the job, as he might be getting laid off. Now, what are the chances that he is the owner of this new outfit, and maybe I just gave him pricing guidelines instead of a real quote.
With no regulation, every guy who gets laid off is going to go into some form of tree work, mowing, landscaping retaining walls, etc. He will go out and do anything for anyone, as long as they have money. These guys are not looking at profit margins, they are concerned with not loosing their homes, so when they bid, its more about how much they need at the end of the month to pay their bills. They need 950 to cover a mortgage, then the job is 975.

Have a crew here that the 2 original owners (brothers) are in prison for fraud. They had this uncle working for them as a GM. He gets a huge inheritance, I heard 400,000, not sure if true, next thing ya know, he has 200gs in equipment, all custom painted fire engine red. Looks like the real deal, guy is a tree topping maniac who lets his guys (all joe dirts) drink beers on the job! I got pics! If he had to take any test what so ever, or were required to prove his experience, he would be done. Since he don't, he runs around town mutilating every tree he touches. He has very low overhead, due to the cash, so he can bid for whatever he need to fix his meth addiction for the day (he needs to spend it at the dentist, ever seen a meth heads teeth!FREAKIN WOW!). He has a horrible rep, many bad reviews online. Rip offs, damage, vulgar displays in front of clients. WHO TAKES A DUMP IN A YARD! His guys do! But hey, when ya gotta go! I pay for background checks, ran one on him, dude is a multiple time convicted felon himself, Robbery, Domestic Assault w/serious injury,Theft and Burglary. So a complete dirt bag he is. But he is looked at the same as us, because hey, if he has a license and nice trucks, he is legit, right!!
I know many of you hate the word Regulation, but until it becomes a reality, expect it to complete with these guys. I wont match a price unless they are a CA. I sell them on me, not the price, if I don't get it, oh well. I can go broke on the from the couch much easier than in a tree.

 

[Currently]

Instead of an inheritance, he may be laundering drug money ...

Their problem is they make way too much money to hide, your description is a classic case of this.

A discrete phone call to the local DEA will provide results in about a year or two.

 

[jefflovstrom]

:d

 

[Rftreeman]

Again, with no regulation on who get a license, no testing, no requirements other than money, and no one to enforce the rules, it will continue. I know for a fact, that in San Diego, this does not happen, if you are in business there, you have the credentials. If not, they will shut you down, fast. Ever notice that Jeffrey never complains about this, he don't have to, as he works in an area that considers Arboriculture an actual profession. This the reason that after 4 more years of school with my youngest, when he is done, back to Caleafus I go. Jeff, Mikey G take note!! Dana is coming too! Most other places, your just another dude with a saw in the eyes of the general public. You will never get rid of the weekend warrior or R.O.W. side work, but the full time hacker outfits could be dealt with. I try and educate every person I meet, while out and about doing bids and such, on why it is important to hire a pro vs hack. Safety and proper tree care are the main topics. Never price.

Just yesterday, we drove up on a new outfit. "Treeriffic Tree Service, Topping Specialist" was on the side, of the very nice trucks. They look new and I have never, ever seen these guys. Now I wonder, if they have a license, and they probably do, I bet the chick behind the counter at the city got a kick out of the name and made nice with them. They were sitting in the yard of a guy who I bid some work for a couple of months ago. Parked like they belong there, told me that he worked for his uncles tree service when he was a kid, topping trees and such. He worked at at some plant and told me that he had to wait on the job, as he might be getting laid off. Now, what are the chances that he is the owner of this new outfit, and maybe I just gave him pricing guidelines instead of a real quote.
With no regulation, every guy who gets laid off is going to go into some form of tree work, mowing, landscaping retaining walls, etc. He will go out and do anything for anyone, as long as they have money. These guys are not looking at profit margins, they are concerned with not loosing their homes, so when they bid, its more about how much they need at the end of the month to pay their bills. They need 950 to cover a mortgage, then the job is 975.

Have a crew here that the 2 original owners (brothers) are in prison for fraud. They had this uncle working for them as a GM. He gets a huge inheritance, I heard 400,000, not sure if true, next thing ya know, he has 200gs in equipment, all custom painted fire engine red. Looks like the real deal, guy is a tree topping maniac who lets his guys (all joe dirts) drink beers on the job! I got pics! If he had to take any test what so ever, or were required to prove his experience, he would be done. Since he don't, he runs around town mutilating every tree he touches. He has very low overhead, due to the cash, so he can bid for whatever he need to fix his meth addiction for the day (he needs to spend it at the dentist, ever seen a meth heads teeth!FREAKIN WOW!). He has a horrible rep, many bad reviews online. Rip offs, damage, vulgar displays in front of clients. WHO TAKES A DUMP IN A YARD! His guys do! But hey, when ya gotta go! I pay for background checks, ran one on him, dude is a multiple time convicted felon himself, Robbery, Domestic Assault w/serious injury,Theft and Burglary. So a complete dirt bag he is. But he is looked at the same as us, because hey, if he has a license and nice trucks, he is legit, right!!
I know many of you hate the word Regulation, but until it becomes a reality, expect it to complete with these guys. I wont match a price unless they are a CA. I sell them on me, not the price, if I don't get it, oh well. I can go broke on the from the couch much easier than in a tree.

so if this guy did pass all the regs and such what would your opinion of him be then?

 

[treeclimber101]

Wow........... you can tell JULY is right around the corner and works a little slower now, 30 days all the pigs were wallowing and a fat , this is the profession we chose , work has always been hit or miss here , and I bid accordingly and probably only get about 40% of what I look at so what who cares , I am thrilled to be my own boss doing something I like sure beats working for some ####ing ###### making him money for the same sore back .. Maybe I won't be able to retire at 50 like I planned but thats fine ...

 

[tree md]

Hey Caveit, don't take what I say too seriously, sometimes I feel like I'm from another planet. Anyone who knows me on here knows I talk a lot of ####.

One of my groundies called me last night and said he couldn't make it to work today. Him and his wife had plans to go out of town for the weekend. He only has to work with me, he has to live with her. Still put me in a bad situation as I need two on the ground for this job. Called the customer and told them it would be tomorrow. They weren't happy but what can you do? If they did back out on me it wouldn't break my heart.

Anyway, got me another worker lined up and will do the job tomorrow.

 

[046]

hang in there... thought all the low balling was back in Tulsa