Upgrades to Echo CS-590

[Idahonative]

If you're going to use a bench grinder for it, be very careful. The first one I did, with just a little pressure the tab came off in about a milisecond, and it flattened it out. It would be easy to grind right through it if you're not extremely careful. It's not hard to snip them with side cuts and smooth it with a file, and it gives me more control. To each his own, but I feel much safer doing this job manually.

The little sanding disk on a Dremel works good too.

 

[Rockjock]

Unlike some on here I can easily understand that Echo has to set their saws lean and clog up the muff to get by the EPA, if you are incapable of dealing with those 2 issues get yourself a gutless low quality MS270 .. Steve

Steve do read what I wrote. I understand it is not your strong suit.. I said that it was a loaner and that the customer liked it. I also pointed out it was a stock saw that had not been adjusted. You and Cliff are not grasping what I am saying. Simply put you praise the saw as being the best thing out there and yet you also dam the company for making it run so poorly out of the box because of its lack of knowledge to tune the saw correctly. How does that make any sense at all? I thought Echo made the saw not the EPA so why keep blaming them? Stihl is able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. Husqvarna able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. Dolmar is able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. , Jonsered is able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. And they all are EPA compliant saws. But I do wish you both a happy christmas

 

[mountainlake]

Steve do read what I wrote. I understand it is not your strong suit.. I said that it was a loaner and that the customer liked it. I also pointed out it was a stock saw that had not been adjusted. You and Cliff are not grasping what I am saying. Simply put you praise the saw as being the best thing out there and yet you also dam the company for making it run so poorly out of the box because of its lack of knowledge to tune the saw correctly. How does that make any sense at all? I thought Echo made the saw not the EPA so why keep blaming them? Stihl is able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. Husqvarna able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. Dolmar is able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. , Jonsered is able to put out a saw that fresh out of the box will run well. And they all are EPA compliant saws. But I do wish you both a happy christmas

You sir are the one damming Echo for putting out a saw that needs to be tuned, most of the rest of us on here can live with that as it takes less than 20 minutes to tune and open up the muff if you know how and are willing to do it.. I can read just fine and your post about a gutless MS270 makes it sound like it just as good as a CS590 when it's no where near the saw in quality or power of a well tuned CS590. Most likely your customers were running a Cs590 as it came, tuned lean with a pea sized muff opening. I've seen plenty of post on here and elsewhere where other brands come tuned lean also, I wouldn't run any new saw , any brand without tuning it for the fuel, temp and elevation it's going to run at and you or anyone else shouldn't either. Plus if you can't figure it out the EPA is why saws or any small engine comes tuned lean. Steve

 

[Rockjock]

You sir are the one damming Echo for putting out a saw that needs to be tuned, most of the rest of us on here can live with that as it takes less than 20 minutes to tune and open up the muff if you know how and are willing to do it.. I can read just fine and your post about a gutless MS270 makes it sound like it just as good as a CS590 when it's no where near the saw in quality or power of a well tuned CS590. Most likely your customers were running a Cs590 as it came, tuned lean with a pea sized muff opening.

YOU and your lackie are the one running Echo threw the mud my friend. As I have said the loaner saw I have is a 270 and the bloke who dropped off his echo liked using it. MY point was that it is a saw out the box and it ran well something that according to you and your minion is well beyond Echo to do. Do correct me if I am mistaken. I did not say that I have had many echo products that needed to be tuned, that was cliff, If you need be upset with someone you need look no further than your lackie. I admit I did say that the other saw makers seemed to know how to sell a usable saw out the box and if that upsets you why not contact Echo and educate them on the finer points of saw tuning. Send them a video of your technique, they may offer you a job, a consulting fee, a echo hat.. Steve with all do respect if I were to buy a saw and it needed to be tuned as badly as you and your lackie claim I would simply return it and get something that runs right. What I can tell you first hand is I have sold hundreds of saws and I can recall only 1 time I had to do some fine tuning on the saw. That to me speaks volumes.

 

[mountainlake]

Let not backtrack on your past post. The only thing I'm upset about is your whining about the fact that Echo saws need to be tuned to meet the EPA regs in the US which you don't seem to be able to figure out. I and most dealers (except the ones that are too lazy) plus most on here have no problem with tuning a new saw. There is no way I'd buy a gutless low quality MS270 over a CS590. Steve

 

[Cliff R]

I would like to know what a "lackie" and "minion" are? Since you have directed those comments at me, I may have to take offense to it. Unless someone reading this thread is completely retarded, I don't have a fancy handle, my name is Cliff, not "lackie" or "minion", and I'd appreciated being called by my name, thank you. Since we are getting personal here, your comments toward others are noticeably condescending, to a point where you make very crafty comments to try to make others believe that you are possibly smarter, faster, stronger, taller, more educated and have greater depth of experience with these things than the rest of us. It appears that you may have a business of some sort, I and decided after your second condescending post that had my name in it that I would NEVER, EVER, for any reason spend one cent of my money with you.

Steve seems to have a good bit of DIRECT experience with USA delivered Echo power equipment as well. Our results with these saws have always been pretty close. A very good friend of mine worked for many years at an Echo Warranty facility, and he's the one who got me started on Echo power equipment. He told me that one of Echo's main objectives is to be well with EPA compliance, and in the same sentence told me that they run a fine line of being lean vs potential P/C failure. They simply expect a certain percentage to fail as they will not have full control of all the parameters that equipment will operate in once it reaches it's final destination. Yes, was told that by a factory trained technician who did it for a living for nearly 20 years. He since moved on and up in the World, but is still one of the best and most knowledgeable small equipment tech that I know.

I've seen a good number of Echo P/C's damaged by lean carb settings, and to date haven't seen any chainsaws that didn't benefit from richening them up some (yes, unless you don't do math well that's 100 percent). I tend to be a bit more critical than most, and when I lay down my hard earned money for something, I want it to work at it's peak potential, and provide many years of reliable service. I still don't go as far as many do on AS, porting, reducing squish, moving the timing around, etc. At most I'll do a minor muffler mod in conjunction with correct carb tuning.........Cliff

PS: just to make things really interesting, I dropped the hammer on a new CS-590 this morning, so stay tuned......

 

[Rockjock]

Let not backtrack on your past post. The only thing I'm upset about is your whining about the fact that Echo saws need to be tuned to meet the EPA regs in the US which you don't seem to be able to figure out. I and most dealers (except the ones that are too lazy) plus most on here have no problem with tuning a new saw. There is no way I'd buy a gutless low quality MS270 over a CS590. Steve

Mike I was not whining. I was TOLD that they MUST be retuned or they would blow up. I debated that fact because many many many saws are bought and never touched by home-owners and they run a good 20 years. I was then told again that they MUST be adjusted and I assumed that ECHO was a world class manufacture and did test the saws, use atmospheric chambers and did extensive product testing BUT I was then told how could they know where the saw was going. I kept being told that ECHO was a lesser product by your chum.. sorry lacky and minion hard to get the right English word out. As far as being bigger smarter better than others I think that a stretch. This is a chainsaw enthusiasts site. I am a novice at this. But in product testing, design and implementation, failure analysis, engineering I might be smarter then most. But as I stated that is a Chainsaw enthusiasts site and we all bring our life experience into this forum.

 

[mountainlake]

You really have a hard time understanding that due to the USA EPA a lot of small engines are tuned lean, it's not rocket science. Steve

 

[stubnail67]

cant wait to see cliffs write up and before and after videos....

 

[Cliff R]

I'm really looking forward to doing some testing and evaluating the CS-590, plus comparisons against my Husqvarna 262XP. It's already been shipped, so should be here in a few days. I'll start out testing it stone stock, but will NOT do full power cuts with it if the WOT A/F ratio is too lean for my liking. So it may get the limiter caps removed but no other modifications before testing it.

I've heard that the muffler exit hole is tiny, so making an upgrade there is on the list. I haven't bought a saw for myself in a while, been too busy in the shop and finishing up my latest book. The fun will begin next week, I'll put up a thread at some point on how things go with it........Cliff

 

[Conquistador3]

I've read quite a bit about Echo cs-590 and then found that someone said it could be 'turned into' a 600 with some mods. And then I read that now there is a 620 that is basically the same saw just more powerful? There may have been a couple of other differences, such as less plastic. But the 620 costs, like, $250 more? sheesh. I guess the 590 would be plenty for somebody like me who just needs a reliable saw to cut some firewood and occasional downed tree.

The CS-590, 600 and 620 all come with the same engine rating here. So you are basically correct: underneath the "bodywork" it's the same engine.
Starting with the 2016 model, the 620 comes with a Sugihara 20" bar as standard instead of the Tsumura it had before. The 620 seems a very nice saw overall, but we are talking Stihl money: it costs the same as the MS291.

And you would be perfectly right: for what you need to do the standard 590 is perfectly fine.

 

[Idahonative]

I'm really looking forward to doing some testing and evaluating the CS-590, plus comparisons against my Husqvarna 262XP. It's already been shipped, so should be here in a few days. I'll start out testing it stone stock, but will NOT do full power cuts with it if the WOT A/F ratio is too lean for my liking. So it may get the limiter caps removed but no other modifications before testing it.

I've heard that the muffler exit hole is tiny, so making an upgrade there is on the list. I haven't bought a saw for myself in a while, been too busy in the shop and finishing up my latest book. The fun will begin next week, I'll put up a thread at some point on how things go with it........Cliff

Cutting the "90" out of the deflector will help a lot and only takes 5 minutes. You may not be comfortable punching holes in the muff and that will make the saw louder as well. Just doing the deflector and trimming the tabs...you will be very happy with that saw.

EDIT: I have a 600p that I cut the deflector out of, punched 6 holes in the muff (around the stock pipe), and trimmed the tabs. Set at 12,500 rpm's, that saw is VERY impressive for having such simple mods. I recently made some test cuts on some dry, very tough elm and it was amazing how much I could lean on it.

 

[Cliff R]

Thanks for the pics. Is the muffler equipped with CAT? Some of the later Echo saws I've worked on used them. On the CS-370/400's the muffler is relatively easy to modify, on the CS-330/360T's it has to cut/split them MIG welded back together when you are done.

Is the CS-590 the same engine as used on the 600's and 620's? Is it a Strato-charged design, or open or closed P/C set-up?........Cliff

 

[mountainlake]

No strato, no CAT. The CS590 and CS600 are the same closed port, the CS620 is closed port also but might have a higher exhaust port for higher RPM and a more open muff. You'll find the CS590 will cut really good with tuning and a good muff modd .. Most likely no see as much gain on the 620 as I think they come with a more open muff Steve

 

[Macman125]

The EPA is the main reason things are as they are here. Since I own and have owned quite a few Echo products over several decades now, I have seen them continue to make changes to their engines in search of more power, and efficiency. If you want inefficiency, pick up one of their smaller top or side handle reed valve engine models, CS-300 for example. They are underpowered, stinky, and inefficient. Echo moved on to piston ported smaller models with better success there. I have a good example with my CS-360T. It was quite lethargic right out of the box, and WAY too lean for my liking, but it did work OK within the limits of the factory caps on the L and H screws. At the stock settings it had a very annoying hesitation until fully warmed up, and even then it was BARELY acceptable from an operator standpoint. It also has an annoying rev-limiter that is reached very easily when the saw had the factory lean settings.

Removing the limiter caps was a nice improvement for that saw, but it was still "sluggish" and a bit down on power. A muffler mod was the next improvement, and low and behold I now have a really nice running top handle saw one would be proud of. It has great power for the cc's, and has been dead solid reliable now for many years. The only negative to that saw is the "bulky" design for a top handle.

Echo has been improving their offerings one by one in recent years. I've owned just about every single model that was available 10 years ago, some were strong runners, others just OK, and a couple a bit sub-standard, at least in terms of power to weight ratio. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of direct experience with the latest offerings, but am glad threads like this are running on them. I've very interested in the CS-590, CS-600, and CS-620 models, but haven't dropped the hammer on one yet simple because my line-up is quite up to par in 60cc range. I've still got my sights set on owning one, and may add one to the line-up at some point.

+2 on the CS-590 offering. The CS-590 is certainly intriguing, as it is quite a bit less expensive than the 600's and 620's, but has the same cc's. I've also wondered if it has similar potential, which would make it a real bargain for a 60cc saw?.......Cliff

I have a cs360t as well. I Had to do the same mods to get the thing to run right. After removing the catalyst from the muffler, removing the caps from the carb and retuning it, it runs awesome.

YOU and your lackie are the one running Echo threw the mud my friend. As I have said the loaner saw I have is a 270 and the bloke who dropped off his echo liked using it. MY point was that it is a saw out the box and it ran well something that according to you and your minion is well beyond Echo to do. Do correct me if I am mistaken. I did not say that I have had many echo products that needed to be tuned, that was cliff, If you need be upset with someone you need look no further than your lackie. I admit I did say that the other saw makers seemed to know how to sell a usable saw out the box and if that upsets you why not contact Echo and educate them on the finer points of saw tuning. Send them a video of your technique, they may offer you a job, a consulting fee, a echo hat.. Steve with all do respect if I were to buy a saw and it needed to be tuned as badly as you and your lackie claim I would simply return it and get something that runs right. What I can tell you first hand is I have sold hundreds of saws and I can recall only 1 time I had to do some fine tuning on the saw. That to me speaks volumes.

I have a couple echo saws and have worked on several for my friends. All of them ran very poorly at first and benefited greatly from properly tuning them and muffler mods on a some of them. The general consensus here says that tuning them provides a improvement in performance and longevity. It really is not that hard to take 20 minutes or so to properly tune one in. I love my echo products, only after tuning them to run to my satisfaction first.

 

[Cliff R]

"No strato, no CAT. The CS590 and CS600 are the same closed port"

Thanks Steve. I usually do some research before a purchase like this, but saw one on Ebay at a great price so decided to take the plunge and see what these newer models are all about? I'll start out with limiter caps removed and fine tuned only, get some time on it, then open up the muffler and see if it helps it out some?

That is the only mod's the CS-510 needed and it's an excellent running saw for 50cc, I'm hoping to get similar results with the CS-590......Cliff

 

[n240sxguy]

I opened my Christmas present this morning. A CS-590 that I had put under the tree. I've never used a good saw before today. This thing is awesome. My old, poor running, never tuned or adjusted by me, Poulan 4218 is currently on eBay with bad compression and a scored piston. I've watched all the vids about the muffler mods and limiter tab removal. The dealer either had the high and low set out as far as the limiters would go, or removed them and just dropped them back in after adjusting it. I took them out and cut the tabs off, put grease around the air filter fitting, and checked the compression. It's 150-160. Curious what it'll be when it gets broken in. I made a couple cuts, then opened the high a 1/4 turn. Made another 1/4 turn out and cut again. Then started turning it back in. I think it's about 1/8 turn open from where it was set from the dealer. I'm loving it so far.

 

[Idahonative]

Yep, what Mountainlake said...no cat, no strato. I thought the 590 and 600 were basically the same engine but they do have different numbers on some parts:

TOP:
Carb: Same (HDA-268A)
Cyl: Different (590: A130002041) (600p: A310000910)
Piston Kit: Different (590: P021038790) (600p: P021015190)
Ring: Same (A101000210)
Coil: Different (590: A411000340) (600p: A411000450)

BOTTOM:
Crank: Different (590: A011001270) (600p: A011000540)
Crank Bearings: Different (590: 9403646202) (600p: V592000000)
Clutch Assy: Same (A056000221)

I have a feeling the 600p has been beefed up in certain areas like the crank and bearings but I can't confirm that. Maybe someone who has been deeper into the machine than I could confirm. That would make sense since the 590 is sold as a homeowner model.

Performance wise, I don't think there is a lot of difference between the two. My gut tells me, however, the 600p has been built to hold up better long term to more use/abuse (pro model vs. homeowner).

 

[Idahonative]

No strato, no CAT. The CS590 and CS600 are the same closed port, the CS620 is closed port also but might have a higher exhaust port for higher RPM and a more open muff. You'll find the CS590 will cut really good with tuning and a good muff modd .. Most likely no see as much gain on the 620 as I think they come with a more open muff Steve

The 620p has the same stuffed up muff and needs the same MM as the 590/600. In the cut, I can't tell a lot of difference between the 600p and the 620p (both MM'd and tuned.). One of these days I will do some timed cuts between the two...I think it will be surprising to some.

 

[mountainlake]

I was just going by the part numbers, the 590 and 600 are the , the 620 is different. Steve