Using Self Tightening Torque

[TheTreeSpyder]

In many situations a simple change in lacing a rig will avail it to torqueing(or otherwise....)a limb a helpful way. For jsut as in hinging; every fibre, it's position, bend, relation to other fibres, tension etc. is a unique event giving specific pull/support properties to the whole event.

When using self tightening rigs the longer the distance between the hitchpoint and hinge gives more leveraged tightening of the line (also the farther out gives more leveraged support to limb, so this compounds suport working 2 ways at once).

When invoking self tightening power to torque/twist/float a load; i think it is important to tighten the line in the short amount of time/flow of hinge before tearoff. High friction helps by reducing the amount of line that needs pretitghtened. For shockloading, more stretchy/rubberbandy line (by using pulley for redirect to ground) is good to handle the sudden shock load over a larger area of line; here that works against ya. Also, sweating line in like a pro (climber) from hitch to twist, twist to firs redirect etc.; so there is no play in line, limb is even pulled slightly up.

Then any leaning down by limb will invoke immediate, intense pull by line. Placing line farther out leverages this more. But you want the limb's C.o.B. to be on opposite side of line's hitch point on limb from you. If it is inside that line, it will place pressure on bottom of hinge; and also have a reversal of flow after tearoff that is sometimes violent. In this picture, it would rollout of the crotch that constitutes the initial hitchpoint as well as torque point.

 

[ramanujan]

alright i can't figure it. what does C.o.B. stand for?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Ceter of balance.

What it boils down to is that Ken trains his ground to allow the load to ease in on the line to tension off ans he cuts it out. Then swings it off on the hinge.

The wrap/marl on the crotch, near the COB, holds the load and the knot at the butt is the backup for easy tie-off.

I think the key to this rigging is getting the COB attatchent right so that it does not fall apart and drop the load when suspended

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

oooooooops sorry-
C.o.B. = Center of Balance;
one of the most important considerations in these models i thinx, not of exact numbers (once strengths of supports is comfortably within SWL's); but rather of balances and ratios invoked by supports of line and hinge. But seek a magic Ramanujan for some of my number inqueries..........

i look at a hinge as an extra line, like butt tied to close support to aid in ushering support line's hitchpoint plumbobbed under support. Or not quite to so at tearoff load pulls away from me; if hitchpoint goes out further then support point (might come back at me) line is slackened till hitchpoint is under or before support, then seperation is allowed. So the hinge is like a line butt tying for support during sweep, then dispensable and cut. If the C.o.B. is on other side of hitch, butt end will lift up (if no other obstructions) also clearing obstacle directly below. Almost like 2 lines.

Keeping hinge fibre, and rope fibre tight and leveraged; gives both of thes supports power, and invoke it immediately, for hinge sweeps can be short as hinge flexes under changing leveraged load from limb of same size and weight.

 

[Stumper]

Brian, Ken's black line represents the outline of the house roof. The blue arrow is his intended direction for the limb to go. His point is that if he were to just cut it or if he ran a line to it but only tied off at the butt it would not follow the face cut (blue arrow). By wrapping the line through the branch crotch and then down to the butt he can have it pulled into the face/notch and go the way he wants-he gets the effect of both tip and butt roping with one line.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Well, i'm trying to understand it too, no problemo.....

Self torquing= i think would be wanting to twist; self imposed by the restriction of the line. So if line is set so tight, with a twist (in right direction) as i slowly hinge limb down, the pretightened, and tightening more (as hinge lowers limb into line); the twist 'wants' to come out of line and makes 'torque' (twist) along length of limb. The same hinge material in felling that you don't violate so as to prevent twisting, doesn't allow the twist here; so that torquing around is converted to turn IMLHO. Of course taking out that fibre in hinge that prevents twisting can cause horizontal limbt to flip off roof into yard if that is all ya need, as now twist can happen. But that would take more leveraged twist than just through this crotch; like tracing final hitch point not down spar (thereby losing some of hinge pocket pressure quotient); but in direction opposite of travel of rig, forthat more leveraged twist.

It can be said that any arcing is torquing, but not in this 'rollover' sense of spinning crankshaft etc. But i thinks every rig should be examined for it and it's help/consequences in that, for it is certainly a possible powerfull factor in any rig.

The Blue arrow/blue writing points to where the gunned faces of hinge would point to, delivering limb. The blackline/black lettering is meant to show the roof/ proposed obstachle. 'Ushering' is meant to relay the context of carefully allowing flow of 'elephants' able to crush me to their proper places with calm, calculated inspiratians/mechanics. Mostly keeping their treemendous force slow, so minimized, giving more time for adjustments; avoiding SpyderSplatting stampede of force and speed! Ohhhhhhh Noooo Mr. Billlll......!


JP, seems to see some of what i go for; but SuperSkwerl doesn't seem to like the budget spell checker i got from JP!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Ready on the rope!

OK what I'm going to do is knot it an then start the back cut. and let it ease into the line for tension. All i want you to do for now is to hold it steady.

The when the line gets tight, I'll continue the back cut and we will let the limb swing out, away from the house. When i cut the hinge free, you lowe it to the ground nice and easy.

 

[TREETX]

Ok JPS, now once again in Spanish!!!

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Originally posted by Stumper
Brian, Ken's black line represents the outline of the house roof. The blue arrow is his intended direction for the limb to go. His point is that if he were to just cut it or if he ran a line to it but only tied off at the butt it would not follow the face cut (blue arrow). By wrapping the line through the branch crotch and then down to the butt he can have it pulled into the face/notch and go the way he wants-he gets the effect of both tip and butt roping with one line.

Stumper is pretty much right on (again) what i'm trying to say; it kinda rolls over changing the point of the C.o.B. slightly where it will fall into the face, rather than pinching saw falling back as it naturally would. As the limb on backcutting starts to settle into pretightened line, tightening it even further; it creates such a pressure from the tightness of the line; that the force powers the twist/turn so that the spar falls in to the face of the cut properly.

Placing the load in such a 'bind' against itself, can give the power for many adjustments to task, especially when this force is applied to a leverged point on the limb.

Brian, this is notching to the side, jsut the weight is off, to go into notch natureally. i'm not looking at lifting up, i am looking at moving sideways. Sometimes jsut a tight angled line will get you out of a similar situation. Sometimes ya can't get the angle, or the tightness, or need to augment both; so applying this force can help pull those off, by doing enough things to add up to the support and steering needed. i look at these as gravity powered machines. Looking at their own weight and leverage used against them; whereby weight and length offer more oppurtunities, rather than restrictions, space allowed and within own league. Also, maintaining higher sweeps for more clearance by limiting downward force; by limiting speed, using tighline and sideways motion (whereby part of the force is movbing sideways, therfore not pressing down towards obstachle.

JP it can go that EZ, without the descriptions.

i beleive that if you can correctly name properties, that gives you like commanding handles to call them out. This allows them to be shared. This also allows them to be segregated, focused on, familiarized, polished, maximized, fitted back into the whole and instantly realized in any situation presented. And if any item can be shown to be a powerfull component, any rig should be scanned for the oppurtunity of that item's power; as well if it would be a help or hindrance. For it has already shown itself as a powerfull quotient; so has a place in the overall formulae for support of a load; even if on this trip that contribution is zer0.

Here is a different view i offered before, only after curve in line, the line moves in direction of targfet rather than down towards hinge. This puts more unchallenged load in hinge, but gives more torque. If the hinge is clear across diameter that torque will be made into turn, then flipping (dropping as it 'unravels'). If Hinge is just corner splotch of fibre, torque can flip limb over lengthwise while on hinge, for hinge provides pivot without leveraged resistance to spin in this formation. Both can have their uses, raisisng more power simply to task, by lacing a slightly different way, slanting saw, enabling more dynamic choices as well as wider SWL.

Or something like that........
:alien:

 

[rbtree]

Very nice Ken,

But I'm not sure I grab the advantage for tieing off the line near the butt, as the pull will still be out where the marl is. Is it able to perhaps slip a bit as the branch swings around? I can see, that if you can catch the end, it is easier to choke it near the butt.

Am I missing something? With all your complicated description, it looks like simple swinging a limb which I learned to do 30 yrs ago. And if the branch and fibers are just right, and no target nearby, can sometimes be coaxed all the way around with no line at all.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Thanx-

The toss/catch or trow lined from ground on long limbs..... then tied near is pretty handy. But that coming back with line also does something else i've tried to name, not to clear on, but helps.....

The turn in line is not meant to be halfhitch or marl; either would not have quite the same effect, grabbing at that point,not givign flip/turn. Line comes over from steer to side, to opposite sdie of limb, under branch and down top (1st pic.). Without marl/half hitch ya get the flip that those lacings would lock out. Not interupting that flow of tenseness around the curve, especially at a tight angle give more power, all aliken a 2/1 system pattern.

i like pitching 'em sideways off roof too 'freehand'; this is when you don't have that clearance etc. Also, weight of branch as you tried to feed backcut into face would be backwards in what i propose. So it is that one beyond throwing, and regular rigging sweep won't get it for whatever other complication/situation. Just a lil off balance to go right way even with rope..... There can be helpful force in the weight and leverage of the load(as in throwing sideways off roof), with a twist. Just more power when ya need it, and a simple lacing even when ya don't for more security to task. But, really an awesome amount of power for taking bigga'prey at one shot confident-ally!! Then seeeing what it can do and folding it in with all the rest.....

 

[rbtree]

Gotcha, Kenny...

Now I hope you are sleepin', in prep for another big hot Floridian werk day!!!

Don't envy me my 70 degree relatively low humidity current climate, with nites in the low 50's!! We've now gone 50 days with no day's high less than 70 degrees, a record, and only a touch of rain....but only a few days over 86 degrees....I love it up here---till the rainy winters, that is.. But La Nina is supposed to bring us a cool wet winter, so I may be skiing virgin powder up to my armpits all winter, yeehawww!!!! And there is no better thrill on the planet, save maybe surfing 100 foot waves in Maui..and I don't surf...'ceptin the Net.....

 

[ORclimber]

Every time KC posts one of these threads I learn a little more about the physics involved in cuts.

The butt tyeing gives more pulling power to the swing, like running a tag line through a high branch on a tree to be dumped and tying it off low.

I don't see the benefit of the twisting torque, aren't you more likely to pinch a saw that way. The resuting longer twisted hinge fibers might hold on longer than a hinge that didn't twist though.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

That's quite enuff RB.......; nad wit'5 hours difference; i imagine ye sleep now..... now RobMurph has all that 'upside down' (even the seasons)IMLHO!!!!

If not for the twist, when ya start backcutting to face the saw would be pinched, at least in this scenario that i've met many times and am trying to present. This limb over the roof, is just over the line, off balaance for the normal trix.

The line is so tight, the twist cocked and ready, that now as the backcut starts, the line tightens a hair more and the twist pushes branch into the face of the cut, where normally it woulda settled back towards roof, and pinched saw.

Notice the farther out from hinge the bend (that also catches limb against line if C.o.B. is further out still), the more leveraged pretightening on the line; while at the same time, that more tightened line, with more leveraged pull.......places that increased pull on a higher leveraged position of control on the limb.

So going farther out (hey i do it all the time.........:alien: ); functions in 2 ways at once: it leverages more pull from the line to give more support/pull on limb; while placing that more support/pull on a more leveraged point of support on load. Totally compounding moving line out further, or hinge further back.

Just don't surpass the C.o.B. in this example the branch wouldn't come out, but it would unroll. But even normally (without twist), as the green end tips down, if theC.o.B. is betwixt the hinge and hitch points, at tear off the green end would stop leading, and the stob end would. This reverasal of lead can be very violent. Also C.o.B. outside hinge to hitch length places force at top of hinge before tear off (another reason for tapered hinge with fatty at top); whereas a C.o.B. inside hinge to hitch line places pressure at bottom of hinge before tearoff. With pressure at bottom of hinge, it is easier for it to 'fall out'; and harder for climber to 'read' what is going on in hinge (than if pressure is at top of hinge)IMLHO

Here is another drawing some might recognize from long ago on ISA. It is meant to show, different places you could put a line on the same load, and how at 20 degrees slant on load that started out as horizontal, a farther out line would be stretched more, giving more support from the more tightened line. If you take that more tightened lines pull, it would power a twist more etc.

Once again this magic works on the tightened line, so i usually have high friction to minimize line that needs to be stretched, then tighten the line, sweating it in (pulling line like bowstring between 2 anchored points, then feeding that slack gained into control end to tighten load end of line) like a MF! Tighten the knot, all hitches and between, trace that whole system of line, tweaking all possible slack out like a craftsman polishing out a finer machine...., maybe even lifting limb slightly as ya do. For in these tight line mechanics........'Play don't werk!'

These componenets have the power to change the game (twist and line tightness each); every rig should be examined for their ease of use methinx. Someimtes it can give more positive action; with no more effort in a 1/4 second more time; sometimes it can make things so much easier..... and slicker. Especially not 'roofing' a man when ya normally woulda.

Every tensioned fibre, it's direction of pull, every way it laces or twists around, and it's relation to other such fibres, leverage of pull on load/support makes it a unique machine. Each change gives a different mechanical instruction to the system. Whether that change in fibre position, tension, angle, relation to other fibres etc. is in wood fibre at the hinge, or rope fibre at the rig. Comprehensively, the 2 fibre systems work the same, jsut at different points. IMLHO

Okay, Okay i know..........
i know.....
:alien: :alien:

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Simplifying just to the self tightening part of the system, may make it easier to dissect. So i have taken it out here too, and tried to present different points for this self working support aid.

Different angles of pull giving different powerful principles to use, and see if they exist for or against ya, by their pattern. All powered by self tightening rig presented here, instead of self tightening rig's leverage powering the torque to give twist/turn. Perhaps after seeing the power of the self tightening rig here; it can better be envisioned with the original example.

Commonly these work by total restrictiction by line to path of travel for limb, this line placed out far is pretightened automatically with more leverage. This gives the line more pull, than hitched closer to hinge. Coincedentally, that same farther out location on limb for hitch/balance point also takes more leverage over the limb; that the increased line pull is being applied to. That gives 2 seperate factors working harder for you to support limb for your bidding. Balance it on the hitch, and you unload the hinge (when line has all weight).

To make this hinge stronger (even though line welll has support), pull down on far end as always. Orrrrr let limb bounce slightly on hinge to start fold (slight slack at right moment), this makes hinge stronger, then snatch back weight off hinge by retightening line. The carefull bounce tomake begin fold (but not tearing), set the strength,then line took load back. So we have super supported limb on line, and strong hinge.


Orrrrrrrrrrr something like that!
:alien:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It seems to me that the added leg may lend som leverage to the tensioning of the system, but I would have to play with it to see if it really adds anything worth while.

And you know I won't be giving up my low friction system anytime soon

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
WTF are you talking about? It looks like English, but does not convey any intelligible thought whatsoever. Your ability to type so many words and communicate so little is frustrating at best.

i realllllllllly try! and i try to explain exactly what i'm desribing, to show it's purified principles to view their power, limitations and assembly into the whole.

Each rope or hinge fibre: it's tension, angle, leverage, position and relation ship to other fibres matter; as well as where and at what angle on the load it grabs.

This is the segregated power component of of the original 'Self Tightening Torque' pic. above, that seemed unclear. So, this is how the torque is powered to the twist in line to make the differance, and how to increase that power; and use it in other ways.

This is capturing the equal and opposite reaction to the limb's movement, using that force to match the limb; giving more 'float'; for 150# of pretensioned line, supports 150# of limb rather nicely (no inertia).

This is the same elusive, hard to see, leveraged from the opposite end than motion and weight pulls with fibre type of mechanics in tapered hinge. Positioning fibre in best position for leveraged control to hinging; whether it be wood fibre in hinge, or rope fibre in rig. Get it (either fibre) to oppose the arc of pulls from movement and lean (each), and attatch that pulling power as the fibre tries to restrict the movement, to the highest leveraged place of pull on the load.

i'm trying to show/develop a true model of the forces in these situations, as to be able to affect them the most, by concentrating on their most powerfull points. Also, once something is shown to be powerfull in a rig; it should be part of the formulae that you check every rig against, to see that familiar pattern of power applied, and if it is helping you or standing against your aimed path.

By polishing and pushing these mechanics to their best i think we can find a more dynamic array of choices to any problem, site out more problems, and have a higher SWL in these gravity powered machines.




This will all werk low friction, but at the cost of pretightening enough to compensate for the extra line. For hear line tightness is used to the extreme. So the high/close overhead just limits the line that has to be sweated, and automatically pretightened, for same effect, you have to replace this. I use this in a lot of climber controlled lowering rigs too.

i think everyone has hit on this stuff somewhere, perhaps not concentrated on it, depended on it, named it to call up again etc.; but seen it, used it.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

We did a dead tree for a church today, dropping most of it in a field in one piece. They wanted some for a New Years fire pit, mostly small stuff. i suggested some wheels from the 40" trunk for utility of seating, fire safety barrier, parking etc. Then they wanted a long seat too....

We cut some weight and clearance of this large horizontal ~30" piece and had them put a 20' equipment trailer underneath and knotched, then leveraged pulled the spart the last few feet to the trailer on the hinge etc. no damage; filled whole trailer.

Then they couldn't get it off pulling with trucks after tieing it to tree and trying to pull trailer forward. i explained to guy running show how this toruqe deal in rigging could help. After several more times it was my turn at bat.

Perhaps this will show more simply how twist can help give extra 'ooomph' to a line pull.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn
It seems to me that the added leg may lend some leverage to the tensioning of the system, but I would have to play with it to see if it really adds anything worth while.

And you know I won't be giving up my low friction system anytime soon

LegOnLoad is something i named trying to de-scribe this effect. i've looked at it several ways trying to name the extra help i see in this lacing in different forms.

i've come back around to leverage as JP mentioned, maybe even a compounding of leverage as the line seems to want to get the kink out so bad that it pulls on one end while pushing on the other (of the spar). So, instead of forcing leveraged arching by moving 1 end, it goes for 2 methinks.

See if this makes sense......
:alien:

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Here is Mayhem applied to another version of the Leg on Load , only laced no towars a tourqued positioning on the load itself, with the extra loaded leg.