VT Hitch Question

[outofmytree]

Thats why low and slow is so important when you try out new rigs. Tree dood you are right of course, tying it correctly was and is the solution. The challenge is that a VT can vary depending on the type of prussik cord and climbing line used as well as rope condition and the climbers body weight. Once you get the set up right for you it is a great hitch.

 

[treemandan]

I might be wrong but I think the scaffold and the fishermans are the same.

 

[outofmytree]

I might be wrong

:agree2:























Just kidding!

 

[outofmytree]

Whilst we are talking VT I should post a follow up on a rig that Treeco canopyboy and masiman gave some input on a few months back.

These are the 2 photo's I posted.

Notice in the second photo that 1 leg of the prussik passes through the fixee micro pulley and is held in place by a dfl stopper.

All 3 posters above raised concerns about the safety of this rig and pointed to the hitch climber guide, issued by treemagineers, as a well regarded document which condemns the use of stopper knots in this fashion.

I took this advice and abandoned the rig until further testing could be done. I emailed treemagineers, 2 national class climbers and petzl. I got 3 replies, (nothing from petzl ) and the consensus of opinion was that this rig is considered safe to use providing the knots are checked pre climb as we do for every rig. Treemagineers were particularly helpful and although said that they had used this rig, they recommend I buy a hitch climber....

I also had the gear inspectors at the TCC check it out to see if there were any concerns and got thumbs up all round.

I like this rig for its narrow overall size which allows me to use a dfl terminatation to "grab" the karabiner and a small rubber sleeve on the far side so there is zero karabiner roll and therefore no chance of loading the gate.

Thanks to the above posters for asking questions for which I was compelled to seek answers.

 

[Bermie]

Yeah, I saw that rig being used at Arborcamp in Queensland last year, one of the demo climbers had it, and I had the same question about the safety of the stopper knot...he said it was ok...and his kit had been passed by the event inspectors.

Sounds like you've done your research...

 

[SINGLE-JACK]

Thanks, good post

Whilst we are talking VT I should post a follow up

...

Notice ... 1 leg of the prussik passes through the fixee micro pulley and is held in place by a dfl stopper.

...

the consensus of opinion was that this rig is considered safe to use providing the knots are checked pre climb as we do for every rig.

...

I also had the gear inspectors at the TCC check it out to see if there were any concerns and got thumbs up all round.

outofmytree: Thank you very much for that post. I've been experimenting with Tom Dunlap's DEDA lanyard concept using vt's with stoppers through ring tenders on each side. I'm encouraged and appreciate your posting; "... got thumbs up all round"

VERY, VERY NICE RIG!!!

Any chance of getting a side pic of how the lines run throught that Fixe, please?

 

[canopyboy]

Whilst we are talking VT I should post a follow up on a rig that Treeco canopyboy and masiman gave some input on a few months back.

These are the 2 photo's I posted.

Notice in the second photo that 1 leg of the prussik passes through the fixee micro pulley and is held in place by a dfl stopper.

All 3 posters above raised concerns about the safety of this rig and pointed to the hitch climber guide, issued by treemagineers, as a well regarded document which condemns the use of stopper knots in this fashion.

I took this advice and abandoned the rig until further testing could be done. I emailed treemagineers, 2 national class climbers and petzl. I got 3 replies, (nothing from petzl ) and the consensus of opinion was that this rig is considered safe to use providing the knots are checked pre climb as we do for every rig. Treemagineers were particularly helpful and although said that they had used this rig, they recommend I buy a hitch climber....

I also had the gear inspectors at the TCC check it out to see if there were any concerns and got thumbs up all round.

I like this rig for its narrow overall size which allows me to use a dfl terminatation to "grab" the karabiner and a small rubber sleeve on the far side so there is zero karabiner roll and therefore no chance of loading the gate.

Thanks to the above posters for asking questions for which I was compelled to seek answers.

That's some good research...thanks for the followup.

 

[outofmytree]

I will have my version of this rig on the saddle today so a couple of pics should be doable. Once it stops raining...........

 

[outofmytree]

Any chance of getting a side pic of how the lines run throught that Fixe, please?

Took these today. Hope this is what you need.

A couple of things I found with this rig. When using this combo of beeline and XTC fire it often slips if you don't get the wraps and braids spot on. If you shorten the length and add one wrap however, you get a bullet proof hitch. The third picture shows the knot with my full weight (85kg) and as you can see it "bends" the climbing line and grabs very well indeed. I use 5 wraps at the moment but I am trying 4 wraps in differing lengths to see if I can get a "perfect" balance of friction when pressure is applied and smooth slack tending.

As always, when tweaking my friction hitch, it will be low and slow.

 

[pdqdl]

A traditional VT has 4 loops above, and several crossover wraps coming back down, with the legs alternating "underneath the crossover". In the photo's directly above, your friction hitch seems to avoid the crossovers completely.

Is that so you will have a shorter friction hitch, you prefer it that way, or is this just an oversight?

I find that alternating which leg of the E2E is at the bottom of the crossover is critical to getting a reliable knot.

 

[outofmytree]

A traditional VT has 4 loops above, and several crossover wraps coming back down, with the legs alternating "underneath the crossover". Your friction hitch seems to avoid the crossovers completely.

Is that so you will have a shorter friction hitch, you prefer it that way, or is this just an oversight? I find that alternating the crossovers is critical to getting a reliable knot.

I refer to this as a VT variation because that is the closest knot to its design. As you correctly point out, a "true" VT consists of wraps over braids, most commonly 4 over 3. The shorter and, IMO, more efficient shape came about purely by accident. I was tying mine on Fire and Jordan tied his on Blue Tongue. Fire is a much "slicker" rope and mine just wouldnt grab. I tried it with more wraps, less wraps, more braids less braids and then no braids. The improvement was dramatic. Another great climber looked it over and said "cut off another 40mm" and what you see is the result. Unlike normal VT's this hitch grabs all the way to the cambium saver. It works very well on SRT as a back up for my flipline when blocking down too.

Another arb suggested ice would be a better prussik for VT's when climbing on XTC fire but I have another 10 metres of beeline so......

One last thing. This is still, IMO, an experimental rig. Treat it as you would any other new hitch and stay low.

 

[tree MDS]

OOMT, it looks like theres no braid on one leg of your VT. Is that something you did on purpose?

Sorry, I didnt see the third page.

 

[SINGLE-JACK]

Took these today. Hope this is what you need.

... [IMG] ...
[IMG]http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110297&stc=1&d=1254231164

...

As always, when tweaking my friction hitch, it will be low and slow.

YEAH! good pix - you're well on your way - nice work.

I know this is a 'work in progress' but, a couple of questions, please:

I noticed no f8 stopping your dfl - not needed? or not needed yet?

Does your vt twist (or 'hockle') your line when decending?

 

[pdqdl]

I haven't taken the time to do the necessary research, but your friction hitch is not (IMO) an experimental knot.

That is the original french prussic, pre-cursor to the VT. A simple 7 wraps around the line. Of course, however many wraps are taken is climbers preference.

Unless I am mistaken, the french prussic was found to unwrap down over itself when loaded to form the crossovers that we have come to be familiar with. The Valdetain Tresse (VT) is the same hitch, but alternates which leg of the E2E is at the bottom of the crossover; this helps the loops secure sooner and also locks the loops into position as to how far they unwind when loaded.

Another alternative: Look up pictures of Moss's friction hitch. I think it is one of the "named" friction hitches, but I don't remember the name. He makes the same 4 loops, then goes around the bottom leg of the E2E with the top leg, and then completely reverses the direction of rotation with the top leg crossovers down to the carabiner. That really secures the position while maintaining the easy slide of the traditional VT.

 

[SINGLE-JACK]

I haven't taken the time to do the necessary research, but your friction hitch is not (IMO) an experimental knot.

That is the original french prussic, pre-cursor to the VT. A simple 7 wraps around the line. Of course, however many wraps are taken is climbers preference.

Unless I am mistaken, the french prussic was found to unwrap down over itself when loaded to form the crossovers that we have come to be familiar with. The Valdetain Tresse (VT) is the same hitch, but alternates which leg of the E2E is at the bottom of the crossover; this helps the loops secure sooner and also locks the loops into position as to how far they unwind when loaded.

Another alternative: Look up pictures of Moss's friction hitch. I think it is one of the "named" friction hitches, but I don't remember the name. He goes around the bottom leg of the E2E with the top leg, and then completely reverses the direction of rotation with his crossovers down to the carabiner. That really secures the position while maintaining the easy slide of the traditional VT.

French Prusik vid:
http://www.ehow.com/video_4411919_tie-french-prusik-knot.html

If I remember right, Moss calls his tress an "XT".

 

[pdqdl]

Well...sure.

But that video is from Expert Village, which practically guarantees that the guy doing the video doesn't know what he is talking about. Just look at all the Tim Ard videos.

 

[SINGLE-JACK]

Well...sure.

But that video is from Expert Village, which practically guarantees that the guy doing the video doesn't know what he is talking about. Just look at all the Tim Ard videos.

:agree2::blush:
My appologies - I didn't notice the dreaded EV banner after the dreaded commercial.

 

[TreEmergencyB]

If I remember right, Moss calls his tress an "XT".

I belive your right i have stole his hitch and prefer it to the VT because it seems to stay together a lil bit better

 

[SINGLE-JACK]

Took these today. Hope this is what you need.

... [IMG] ...
[IMG]http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110297&stc=1&d=1254231164

...

As always, when tweaking my friction hitch, it will be low and slow.

YEAH! good pix - you're well on your way - nice work.

I know this is a 'work in progress' but, a couple of questions, please:

I noticed no f8 stopping your dfl - not needed? or not needed yet?

Does your vt twist (or 'hockle') your line when decending?

Also, it looks like you're using a Denny Moorhouse (DMM, ISC) designed carabiner. Just a note of caution, the Fixe should be derated for that style biner. They tend to load one side plate more than the other - Don't take it wrong - I'm quite sure it's fine for as a slack tender - But your stopper through the back of the Fixe may load one side plate more heavily with that biner. Just something to keep an eye on during development of your rig. You might find an HMS to be a little more friendly.
From the Petzl literature:

 

[outofmytree]

Wow, some great input guys.

Thanks for all the stuff you have posted. It is midnight here so I cannot do this justice but please feel free to critique as much as you wish.

Single-Jack thanks for the fixee information that is well worth more research. You may notice that Jordans original rig had a different karabiner so I may need to change that too.

On a different note, I removed a Grevillea robusta today using this rig and my new (woot) Seqouia and boy what a combination. Sorry but we were too busy for photo's but it was a fun ride. 3km from the centre of the city and views for better than 10km in all directions. You wouldnt believe Silky Oaks were a Grevillea unless you saw one IRL. A 28 metre shrub!