What do you guys think, is this limb dangerous?

[John Paul Sanborn]

I'm with the reduction, and i would recomend a threaded rod in the crotch too. I know ANSI says cable all bases, but sometimes it's not economicly viable. But the cable cost into the bid, and let the primary decision maker do the risk annalysis.

With the target value and the venue I would allso price in the limb removal as an option, stating that it may cause the trees decline.

Anything would require scheduled inspections, moving of targets to reduce that value would be in recomendations.

One thing we loose sight of is that we should be providing the end user a range of options, not just what we think best.

 

[stehansen]

Thanks Mr. Sanborn, I hadn't thought of a threaded rod. Is there any downside to a threaded rod? I can remember my Uncle putting a threaded rod in a large Modesto Ash of his at least 30 years ago, and the tree is still together. The rod is in there somewhere now.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Thanks Mr. Sanborn,.

I'm John or JP As the saying goes, Mr. is my Dad's name.

I hadn't thought of a threaded rod. Is there any downside to a threaded rod? I can remember my Uncle putting a threaded rod in a large Modesto Ash of his at least 30 years ago, and the tree is still together. The rod is in there somewhere now.

The thinking with ANSI is that we change the moment of bend enough with bracing to require cableing along with it.

IMO there are times when this is not true, and can be recomended to a client. At all times when dealing with situations like this, then client must be made aware that any treatment will only reduce the risk of failure. Removal is the only way to eliminate ris of failure.

I just had a disgruntled client on a risk assesment report because i had my "any tree can fail" paragraph in there. They wanted me to say it would never fail...

"meteorlogical wind speed estimations after a storm use limb and branch failure..."

 

[iain]

yes the limb is potentially dangerous included junctions are never good, let alone on a heavy weighted limb over a path/access road, personally i would have to know more about the frequency of its use before a correct hazard assessment could be made , can the path not be re routed , however, bracing is all well and goodbut if a tree is dangerous enough to be braced its defo dangerous enough to be removed trees can be replaced a squashed child can't, contractor liability blah blah

 

[CoreyTMorine]

How much would it cost to have a phone pole planted near the heavely weighted branch? You could then use the pole to cable the limb.

Its a pretty far fetched plan, but who knows, I've seen clients go for some outlandish things. One time this woman didn't like her veiw of the lake being bisected by these two really tall fir trees, she didn't like the frame or some such thing, but she didn't own or want to remove the trees. So the work order ended up directing us to draw the two trees together with a come-a-long and cable them that way! ROFLOL Harharha, man, i had forgotten all about that day

Back to production; in theory what do we think something like that would cost?

$1200 to get the pole installed, and $1200 to cable, brace, prune?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The problem with cabling is that there is nothing to cable to due to the lean, based on my look at the picture.

If you reduce the lower stem you expose the upper stem to more stress; that and the lean over the road are the reasons for shortening it.

I see what I assume to be a crack due to narrow crotch angle on the lower limb. That's the only defect I see. Naturally leaning trees are statisticly no more likely to fail, so I don't see a defect in the center limb or rest of the tree. I also don't see any defect on the stem or connection of the center limb.
The cable could run from the lower limb to one of the other two remaining limbs, whichever is better in line with the defective crotch.
The new exposure to wind because of a reduction of a lower limb is of little to no matter to the remainng limbs, at least in this case. Because the tree is leaning, the stem is verry strong.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Mike, what do you know of Klaus Mattheck's work? Have you studied it or been to a seminar? If so, what do you think of his ideas?

Many think crown reduction is a euphemism for topping, while both can have a place in tree preservation, both to maintain a declining/old/ poorly placed tree's, or to correct a storm damaged tree, as Guy has so thoroughly presented to us his experiences with restoration of horribly damaged trees, where cutting to internodal points (as in stubbing and topping) can actually be the best solution.

The problem with his work is there is no way of quantifying the damage any reduction work does to a mature tree, over the LONG run.
It's easier to see how structural work might affect a nursery tree, and even that is often over stated because if you think about it, all those limbs on small trees will some day be shed anyway.
On a mature tree though, the work done is only quantifiable at that point in time. The cuts affect differently than say, repairing a table leg. The tree is a living, growing, biological creature, and changes made today have long reaching consequences. If you make a cut, there will be a hollow cavity. Ten years from now, that defect may be cause for removal. In the ten years since, the tree will have reallocated its resources to replacing the lost growth, compartmentalizing the wound, sheding roots and compartmentalizing those wounds, moving stored starches, and a myriad of other injury related tasks. At the same time, the goals of the trimming are likely not effectively helped by adding new wood where the arborist wanted, because resources where diverted to injury response and foliage replacement.

 

[treeseer]

The cable could run from the lower limb to one of the other two remaining limbs, ...The new exposure to wind because of a reduction of a lower limb is of little to no matter to the remainng limbs...

OK Mike, maybe you can cable to that big branch despite the lean, but I'd be greatly concerned about the cable increasing risk by changing movement patterns.

Yes leaning stems can be very strong due co compression/tension wood, but I would not gamble that would be enough to hold it in a windstorm. Given the lean and the target, I woul definitely reduce/thin the end of that middle stem a bit.

"if a tree is dangerous enough to be braced its defo dangerous enough to be removed"
iain, that seems absurd; read Tom's post.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

OK Mike, maybe you can cable to that big branch despite the lean, but I'd be greatly concerned about the cable increasing risk by changing movement patterns.

Yes leaning stems can be very strong due co compression/tension wood, but I would not gamble that would be enough to hold it in a windstorm. Given the lean and the target, I woul definitely reduce/thin the end of that middle stem a bit.

Agian you mention lean. Are we in disagreement that leaning or horizontal limbs are no more likely to fail? I might even argue vertical limbs or trees are weaker.

As for movemnt patterns, JPs idea to bolt may have merit, in addition to a slightly loose cable or dynamic cable. The holding power of the cable would only come into play if the limb moved enough to threaten the crotch.

 

[rbtree]

The problem with his work is there is no way of quantifying the damage any reduction work does to a mature tree, over the LONG run.

I dunno about that Mike. In Europe, crown reduction has been practiced for centuries. It started with people cutting trees just for wood for heat or cooking, and has progressed to today's more refined techniques, as espoused by Klaus....

 

[unimog]

Don't try and wear two hats,Contractor or consultant ?

Tell the client to employ a consultant and get a report. You as a contractor can then quote for the work he specifies. That way you have no liability.

 

[techdave]

Liability for failure and injury?

Hi Steve, the only thing like this I am familiar with is the CA state park system. A key guide in these decisions for state park is wether or not people might loiter or congegate in the area under the limb or tree or widowmaker in question.

If the damaged or leaning or broken tree or tree part is hanging over a trail out in the middle of nowhere then it is usually left if it looks stable. But if it is in developed area and there is a bigger risk of injury from the tree or part thereof it must be removed.

Since Q. lobata aint rare or endangered (except by habitat destruction and human activities under mature trees) and since it looks like a very well developed and used NON_RIPARIAN area I vote for removal. Especially if there are lots of healthy and mature trees in the area. If it was say, an Englemann Oak I might sing a different tune.


Dave
jamul Ca
son of a Daughter of the San Joaquin

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I dunno about that Mike. In Europe, crown reduction has been practiced for centuries. It started with people cutting trees just for wood for heat or cooking, and has progressed to today's more refined techniques, as espoused by Klaus....

Practiced, sure but to what end?
Say I have a hollow tree. I know you and Guy will say the best thing to do is crown reduce. At least a half dozen, published, highly respected tree experts have used several different methods to prove that a short tree/branch has less wind drag and leverage on the lower trunk/stem than a tall tree or long limb. This is a fact that can't be argued.
I'll even go so far as to say that in the long run, some reduction, on some trees, in some climates, can add longevity and/or hazard reduction, but reduction work is way over-practiced. The long term biological factors are usually ignored, and in fact, not even understood, let alone considered.
The majority of reduction work I see practiced is staged removal, whether it's the intention of the arborist or not.
Most arborist think topping is bad, but if you make proper reduction cuts the badness goes completely away. They forget the main arguments against topping aren't the types of cut we make.

 

[treeseer]

They forget the main arguments against topping aren't the types of cut we make.

I was kinda with you until I read this last sentence, which I do not understand.

That, and many hollow trees are low-risk, so they need no pruning at all.

That, and Roger's citing of the long experience in northern Europe is strong documentation against your concerns about the long-term effects of careful reduction. I've seen rampant idiotic topping in southern europe, and I do understand your concern.

I wish I could see the over-reduction that you say is so rampant in WI; I don't see it in NC. Quite the opposite; heavy ends are often ignored, with bad consequences.

 

[Koa Man]

About 15 years ago I was contracted to remove a limb off of a lemon gum that looked a lot the limb in question here. I climbed up above it, roped down and started to limb walk to the end to piece out the part over a neighbor's fence.
When I was only about 2/3 of the way out, I heard a cracking noise and the whole limb came off at the crotch. The limb was about 30 ft. long. That was one of the scarest things that ever happened to me in this business. We ended up removing the whole tree due to the huge wound in a critical area of the trunk.