What is wrong with this felling cut

[ATH]

Lots of good comments. One more that I didn't notice mentioned...I switch the order of cuts 1 and 2. The guy I learned that from pointed out when you do the top cut first, you can peek down through the cut to see the bottom cut lining up. Start at the corner nearest you and pivot the saw until it gets to the other corner. Goot way to prevent cutting into your hinge. Of course this is on wider open notches where the top cut is almost vertical and the bottom cut is almost horizontal... Only going in deep enough so the hinge length is about 80% of the diameter.

 

[derwoodii]

you do the top cut first, you can peek down through the cut to see the bottom cut lining up. Start at the corner nearest you and pivot the saw until it gets to the other corner. Goot way to prevent cutting into your hinge

I always wondered why some go top or bottom face cut 1st,,, i myself go bottom just because but this info will find me looking down the bar and cut next time,, thanks

 

[Westboastfaller]

I was enjoying reading the guys so far.
I'll get back to it as I stopped where the OP posted again.

I'll put this in perspective.
How do we fall big wood?
It the same, everything is just bigger.
Let me try is on a ten foot tree or even a 3' tree.
It would look like a dogs breakfast.
Keep in mind there are two angles to set for any cut. In this case we are trying to eyeball 45° twice to match with out slanting one side to the next.
You could never do big dia that way even with the flat back cut so why do little dia this way.

Now the major saftey concerns.
Like JRoland explained and I'm trying to say is it's easier to make error. Undercutting your undercut is very dangerous with even a flat backcut and can send the tree back IF it comes into contact with something. (Ref. Isaac Newton First Law of motion) whatever starts in motion will stay in motion until the body comes in contact this another boby) examples: standing timber, 'dutchmen'
Remember there is two angles and this method can be lethal and even a much higher risk to be on the tention side where we should be. If you make a high cut and the "45°" is sloping towards you and you cut it off?? You got the worst of both worlds with this cut. It a recipe for disaster. You are making a slide with out flat surface. The top weigh will shoot it right at you. Dangerous as I've ever seen.

A trained Faller controls his environment.
We have all these good practices to keep us coming home at night. Each practice backs up another. If we miss a couple then we could be wearing wood. You don't want to wear that stuff, it out of fashion.
Missing a 'dutchmen' no anti kickback step, Falling into standing Timber, dosent degress 10' from stump, dosen't exit 45° to the 'high' (safe) side. *Sloping cuts*, bypass cuts, (blind 'dutchmen') dosen't look up, Falls from under the compression side when it can be avoided.
Dosen't fall Danger trees first.
No saftey trails
Dosen't cut blow down opposite the lay, dosent buck the cut saplings opposite the lay in stump area. Dosen't check corners,
dosen't maintain holding wood. No proper assessment of tree. No site overview. . works beyond experience level.

Not looking up on its own if a killer.
as not getting away from your stump.
On the coast you can not fall onto uncut wood around your stump or impeeding into your Falling face. Hugh killer.

 

[BC WetCoast]

Good comments, you need to remember that falling (whole tree or a stub) in an urban environment is different that in a forest setting. I'm not going to mow down Mrs. Smith's prize roses or take down a fence to ensure a safe exit route. On the other hand it's a little safer as you drop zone is going to fairly open or else you wouldn't be falling it.

The principles of the cut should be the same, but I find you need to have a few extra options available as the conditions can more variable.

For most falling I do (which is done on fairly small trees) I just use a normal notch (not humbolt or open face). I find if I make the top sloping cut first, I can line up the horizontal cut much easier and spend less time trying to clean out the notch. I usually don't want the tree to sit on the stump so my notch is fairly narrow. I also do this at about 3', because I don't have to bend over so much (easier on the body). I'll then kneel down and cut off the stump.

 

[Westboastfaller]

Yes, I was just driving the point home about healthy habits.
This cut is "Danger bay". It is the most dangerous I have ever seen.

I work gas & oil, Maintain Pine Beetle (MPB) , Felling of live wire, DTA/DTF on Wildland fires as well as Production.
I have also filled in on Res work too in the lower mainland and Island.

They said " You are a Faller, then fall the stub then" . I definitely put it on the money hitting the corner of the lawn road end of the driveway. I hearted it out leaving a post of holding wood on each corner of Sap wood. I did a west coast Swanson. A very narrow Humboldt with a sharp angle out of the stump. Definitely Saves your life and your wood when Falling on an up slop and in this case the lawn. (For any that may not understand why) when the top hits first on a hill it creates a wipping action and sends the tree back down towards the Faller. They don't want us to exceed 15° uphill. A lot of the book doesn't work for coast terrain so therefore falls under "overcoming a Falling difficulty" He thought it was funny. He was just one of those guys. I do conventional cuts lots too when falling small snags and MPB work. Sometimes I need a lower cut than can be possible with a Humboldt for pushing leverage. Two seasons of cut and fly bug wood also with a max 6" stump height. Like you say you don't have to bend under to see its cleaned out. Most everywhere but the coast they want 12" stump hights so low cuts save the time on recuts. Res work you need to cut manageable pieces anyway.
They don't want you to make low cuts on snags as that's where its more susceptible to rot as well they want you more anatomically correct so you can watch the top. (Cut at a comfortable hight) The cutting of the tree is low disturbance so I still cut low when I can and I have a 22" handle so I'm at a comfortable hight to wedge it, much easier to swing an axe that way too.
I need to learn and be comfortable with all styles and positions on a reg basis even if they are restricted to overcoming Falling difficultys. It makes us all more versatile. Having said that I should learn climbing. Was it infact you
@BC WetCoast that said you starter climbing later in life?

 

[BC WetCoast]

I did, I started in my early fifties and now the master of the 35' climb .

I worked for years as a forester and forestry engineer on the coast, before getting into the arboriculture stuff. I guess you know the reason the gov't requires a humbolt used on production falling had nothing to do with safety. It was all about revenue to the Crown. The difference between using a humbolt and conventional notch at the same height on the stump can be a 2% loss of value in the log. As stumpage was based on average log value (and a boatload of other factors) this was an acceptable and unavoidable loss of revenue, hence the requirement for humbolt cuts.

 

[Westboastfaller]

If I was to do a pie undercut (birdsmouth/ split the difference) as demonstrated here; I still do a three cut sequence undercut. Starting always with a flat cut for aim AND for the best chance it will be level as I will level my back cut and therefore my step should be even. Example: If your undercut is slanted say an inch on a foot dia that may not be so bad but that's an inch for every foot diameter. When sighting through the undercut from one side on larger diameter to set your level and step for back cut; you can always stand back and eyeball it and reset if nessassary. Same applys with flat cut on undercut. You don't have that option when putting your 45° in first. It sucks when your B/C is nice and level but your U/C is wack.
You start with $hit, you end with $hit

 

[Philbert]

Updated links to Post #13:

https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...ing&sort=relevancy&f:language-facet=[English]

https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...ing&sort=relevancy&f:language-facet=[English]

Philbert

 

[BuckmasterStumpGrinding]

Something I have not seen mentioned yet is the difference in wedging over a 30% notch vs a 60% notch. The smaller notch leaves a larger lever and doubles the efficiency of wedging.

 

[BC WetCoast]

Something I have not seen mentioned yet is the difference in wedging over a 30% notch vs a 60% notch. The smaller notch leaves a larger lever and doubles the efficiency of wedging.

I don't understand. I can see how the depth of the notch will make a difference, I cannot see how the angle of the notch makes a difference.

Please educate me.

 

[BuckmasterStumpGrinding]

I was talking about the % of the tree notched and not the angle of the notch.

 

[Mike Kunte]

It's never a good idea to make an angled back cut. It seems counter-intuitive, but an angled back cut will often end in disaster, with the tree falling backwards. The mechanism is as follows:
1. The weight of the tree "sliding" down the ramp of the face ruptures the hinge.
2. The angled bottom quickly digs into the ground. It has now "overtaken" the crown.
3. With the tree now leaning backward, it falls in that direction. Or sideways. But seldom in the intended direction.
In 99.9% of cases, a flat back cut is called for.
My 2c.
Mike

 

[Philbert]

I thought I had posted a thread on this, with diagrams, but it was on another forum, which I can’t link here. But, if interested, you can Google:

Sloping Back Cuts - Why Not?

Here is a related A.S. thread:

https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/why-an-angled-back-cut-is-bad.125070/
Philbert

 

[grizz55chev]

Tell me why this is not a good felling method, assuming tree is wanting to go in the direction of the open face. Open face is approximately 60% of the way through the tree.

View attachment 448668

Suicide!

 

[Philbert]

OK, I copied a small bit from one of the treads I referenced, along with a few sketches I made to try and explain some of this visually:

I 'know' that a sloping back cut for felling trees is 'wrong', but I was trying to better understand why, in order to explain it to others. Most of the references I found mostly said 'don't do it', with little explanation. So I tried to pull together what I could, from several sources. Pretty basic graphics.



Some comments said that it was harder to hit the spot where you want the hinge to stop (typically about 2" higher than the horizontal face cut, and about 10% of trunk thickness) with a sloping back cut. You also cannot thin a hinge, if needed, without going below the stump shot shelf.



Other comments noted that when wedges are used in a conventional cut, they lift the tree, pivoting it on the hinge, and pressing down flat against the stump. When wedges are used with a sloped cut, they also push in a horizontal direction: this can cause a barber chair-like blowout at the rear of the stump, allowing the tree to fall in that direction. Several comments indicated that the forward direction of wedging also damaged the hinge.

Philbert

 

[HumBurner]

The only real exception, aside from slash cutting (or salami if you're a climber), is when using an out-of-angle face cut to swing the tree. Even then, you're still making the back cut at the same angle as the face, not a wide or sloping cut.

 

[HumBurner]

Something I have not seen mentioned yet is the difference in wedging over a 30% notch vs a 60% notch. The smaller notch leaves a larger lever and doubles the efficiency of wedging.

Sometimes it's more important to have a deep 50-75% face cut (usually on smaller trees, under 18") to undermine the gravity/center of the tree.

Many trees with shallow faces are still a pain to wedge over because of their growth patterns and trueness of center. It's quicker, easier, and many times safer to cut deep than to stand under a tree pounding wedges.



There is a lot of room for creativity in the woods when you aren't subject to "safety standards" which by following to a "T" may end up being more dangerous than "breaking" the "rules."

 

[Lightning Performance]

Tell me why this is not a good felling method, assuming tree is wanting to go in the direction of the open face. Open face is approximately 60% of the way through the tree.

View attachment 448668

Watched a guy put a wedge in this above mess and it all went wrong in an instant. The fence needed fixin. He set the wedges with a little tap and already was about to pinch the saw. I watched as it starts to set back as he hit the first hard shot on the wedge. I said yo, your going to lose it backwards so put a rope on it. He said no we got this I do it all the time. He set a second wedge and the first hard shot blew up the hinge and off it went backwards. If you were behind it your dead. If your in front of it your going to be messed up when it kicked out five feet past the stump. Still standing there you'll need new legs when it bounced back off the stump at the feller. His eyes got real big and I said nice plan chief and walked away. Then the neighbor who's house he just missed gave him a nice chewing about as she lost her ****.

My only weirdo stuff to be done on an urban removal is cutting a very shallow Humboldt (sp) 60-70% through a tree that was leaning back but going the other way after it was picked apart climbing. So it leans over the whatever and was picked off and stripped of limbs on the heavy low side with the hard lean. First thing you notice is the tree lifting up and bowing back in my favor with all the weight going in my chosen direction now. So a tree or a pole still needs to go the wrong way on large hardwoods and sometimes we have no choice. Given enough wood on a solid large tree I take 60%+ right out the wedge with a rope up on it. You can use back side wedges but likely not needed for more than tracking it's movement because the weight is now heading the other way with your canopy weight or just the rope on a pole. Adding a rope is never a bad idea. Saving two feet of my prime saw log is. Even if half the log is losing a foot in the notch area you still saved a foot on the other side. Sometimes that adds board feet sometimes not depending on how the log gets milled. Other times taking more and going past center releases more stress on my log once it was veneer cut at the base to start with. Other times it's not important and a much higher cut would do but if your near anything at the stump going with a humboldt cut keeps the trunk close to the ground with much less chance of it rolling out and hitting something like a shed or fountain we can't move. Sheds move pretty easy when they have to but not concrete water fountains. Standing the tree straight is pretty cool if it has no canopy. Another very shallow tiny wedge is cut to send it. At that point you can practice with wedges or just push it over with a machine. Don't forget the rope if needed because it's still hooked up to something solid or a lug-all or come-a-long maybe a truck and a big ass winch possibly. Just having the line tied off can be a huge safety factor if and/or when needed. Doing them with no safety rope can be dicey and it's not something I do near personal property, swimming pools or structure like buildings.


Everything else is rigging and climbing most times if you have no room to drop the sticks or poles. Using the west coast falling style of low stumps does save us time. Dutchmen cuts are fun to try and they work. Saving a few flush cuts that adds to the log is a win. Doing dumb stuff like sloping back cuts that leave things going backwards or worse yet hung up sucks and usually is completely the fault of an amateur most times. Fixed enough of those messes so I'm done with that and just walk away now. Some people actually beg when the tree is still on their house with damage. Not my problem and I won't touch them now. Too much liability shifts to me when I do so those days are long gone over. I'm on the path to enlightenment.
NMFP!

Stay Safe
Have two exit plans