When is enough, enough?

[clearance]

Canuck-I live in the next province, my boss pays climbers $20-$24hr and some groundsman get $18 depending on what they can do. $12hr is payed for the most useless groundsman who can't use or sharpen a saw and has little potential. $12hr is a kick in the balls for a good guy, even a good guy with problems. Alberta has the highest wage rates for blue collar jobs in Canada. Say to him "Buddy, I am going to give you a raise to $15hr. but anymore f/u and you are down the road"

 

[RedlineIt]

Hey, CC,

I agree, you can't have unreliable help. You gotta know they'll be there with what you need, when you need it.

If this kid has the goods, I don't know if I'd make him think about it for too long though. $12 an hour for hard physical work leaves this young man with options.

He might start to think about what HE needs.

Like an employer with a reliable fleet, reliable hours. He might compare the number of times he's been a bit late to the number of days you just ain't had work or booked him off early. Gen Y put a big weight on personal life, jobs to them can come and go, they've seen Mom's and Dads laid off, they're not investing in you 'till you top up your end.

$12 an hour, sheesh. The kid has options.

 

[Old Monkey]

I must be lucky. My grounder does it all. When I setting up a cut, hes clearing brush or raking. When I'm setting my ropes hes gasing up the saws or getting gear out of the truck. He lost his license because of drinking so I pick him up in the morning. Heres the catch. I pay him $100 a day. He gets the same no matter how long the job takes. Am I paying him to much? Not after hearing the complaints for others.

I think that's a great way to go for a small outfit. It gives him some incentive to haul arse. The faster you get done the better his hourly.

 

[Jumper]

I dont know what the cost of living is where you live but 12.00/hr isnt anything but cheap wages, you couldnt pay rent, eat and make it to work in this place on such paltry wages.

Going rate for groundmen here in Canada, OR LESS!!! And companies wonder why they do not hold onto people very long. There are a lot of other jobs that pay the same, or more, and involve a whole lot less butt busting. As someone pointed out it leaves people with a lot of options. I have seen this first hand at some places I was at and when more technical work was piled on with no extra cash, they walked.

You see the same companies advertising over and over again for slave labour; there is a reason for that The ones that pay likely hold onto their people. I suggest if the person has promise, and you want to use him in positions of more responsibility ie as a climber pay him accordingly. And lay out the ground rules while you are at it. Ie, one more screwup with no just cause and sh*t will happen.

Canuck $ against the US is about 1.25.

 

[Shaun Bowler]

I am thinking of the popular "Mexican Thread".
OK, here is what I mean. People say that there are not Americans(enough) to do some jobs that Americans won't. That is because of the pay/reward. I don't know about you guys, but a friend of mine has a farm in CA. Fava Beans. I wanted to know what it feels like to pick beans.by hand all day with laborers. It was as hard as draging brush up-hill during a wet spell.. all day. Those people should get 15- 20 dollars an hour and we should pay more for produce. We would be able to find our labor pool here if people got fair wages.Another example. My Mother is a controller for a chain of Convelesant hospitals in CA. The people who feed, bath, wipe our grandparents/families *****, only make between 8-12 an hour. Those are union wages. My point being in this message, is that "people who can, will take advandage of those unable to ask for fairness, because they are living hand to mouth.
Everything is realitive

 

[Jumper]

$8-$12 to wipe butts while the "administrator" and a whole bureaucratic chain that do nothing at all get well over six figures a year. And people wonder why health care is so expensive, at least this is the case up here.

The mexicans have already arrived here, just east of Toronto, to work in the fields doing wok no Canadian will, so they import. Saw them at the Supermarket Saturday. Yes they should get more but no one wants to pay $3 for a head of lettuce that normally costs a buck.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Canuck-I live in the next province, my boss pays climbers $20-$24hr and some groundsman get $18 depending on what they can do. $12hr is payed for the most useless groundsman who can't use or sharpen a saw and has little potential. $12hr is a kick in the balls for a good guy, even a good guy with problems. Alberta has the highest wage rates for blue collar jobs in Canada. Say to him "Buddy, I am going to give you a raise to $15hr. but anymore f/u and you are down the road"

Wages in Calgary and Edmonton are very good. Down here in Lethbridge not quite so good. They are getting up there for skilled labour. I'm one of the top five climbers in the area, I have 6 years experience climbing, 2 1/2 of those running my own company. Last fall I thought I'd explore my options and I couldn't find anyone here who was willing to pay over $18 and I would have been bringing my own top handle, pole saws, hand tools, saddle, rope, etc into the picture. At that rate I would have been the highest paid employee of any local tree company.

 

[clearance]

You are getting $80hr per man, who cares what the wages are in your area, pay the guy something decent.

 

[NeTree]

B-Bull,

You're in the right ballpark. I know what I made when I was living in No. Andover and working in Medford/Arlington/Winchester. ('course, that was a time ago...)

It's all relative. You can sell a small removal out there for $2000 easy. Out here the same job might fetch $400 on a good day.

 

[tophopper]

It also relative to tasks, what are we talkin here a full on, all out, well rounded groundy? or a ground labor? or somewhere in between?
If someones worth 12 an hour, there worth 12 an hour. What difference does it make if your charging 65 or 80 pmh.
Groundies around these parts with no expereince at all, may fetch 10/hr to start. From there its all up to the individual isn't it.

 

[Koa Man]

For example gas right now is $0.89 per litre. How many litres are in a gallon? I think its 4.7, so with that in mind we are paying $4.183 per gallon for gas.

It is 3.8 liters per gal., so you are paying $3.38 Canadian ($2.70 US) a gal. Still high but we are catching up.

 

[TimberMcPherson]

Say what you like about local wages, you have no right to complain about his motivation if your only paying him 15% of what your charging him out at. You say yourself that pay is poor and you couldnt find good money locally, your now part of the problem.
Good climbers will go elsewhere or end up being your competition. If you cant make good money paying him closer to 20%, your in the wrong industry and I suggest with the rates you comfortable with you may want to consider pimping or just do everything by yourself.

You dont respect his time and effort through low wages, so he doest respect yours.
I pay my climber a third of what I charge him out at. The result? He works hard, is NEVER late and goes out of his way to make things work better and hasnt cost me a cent in breakages.

 

[Shespen]

It seems that you guys are comparing apples to oranges to pineapples here without considering mitigating circumstances. Take taxes into consideration for instance. Or at least compare CTE's (cost to employ). I think that this will shed a lot of light on this thread. Considering Canada is a socialistic country and therefore the tax burden that is laid on the employer is alot higher than it is in the States, I'd be willing to bet that, after payroll taxes, the cost to employ an employee in Alberta at $15.00/hr is about the same as the cost to employ in your area. It's just that the tax man gets a bigger share. In other words compare wages and payroll taxes together as one and you might be shocked to learn that Crazy Canuck isn't exploiting anyone as many of you seem to be infering. His "net" of that $80.00/ MH is more than likely less than yours. Remember that next time you vote!

 

[Crazy Canuck]

It also relative to tasks, what are we talkin here a full on, all out, well rounded groundy? or a ground labor? or somewhere in between?
If someones worth 12 an hour, there worth 12 an hour. What difference does it make if your charging 65 or 80 pmh.
Groundies around these parts with no expereince at all, may fetch 10/hr to start. From there its all up to the individual isn't it.

Exactly. He's not a well rounded groundie yet, but he's learning. Right now he's worth $12 an hour and he knows that as he learns and proves himself he will get more. If I charge $80 pmh and some one else charges $60 pmh should I pay 25% more for my equipment than they do? Should I pay 25% more for my gas? I realize that $12 an hour isn't the best wage, but quite frankly he's a $12 an hour guy right now. I realize that better wages will attract better people. Thats one thing I've decided to go by when paying my employees and i'm in an area where with any one else he would be getting $8- $10 an hour and he will get more money faster working with me. The thing is he'll only get more money when he shows me he's worth it. Isn't that the way its supposed to work? You show me your worth it and I'll give it to you, I'm not just going to give it up and hope you come through for me. Especially when I'm already paying the best wage for the job in my area.

 

[tophopper]

The thing is he'll only get more money when he shows me he's worth it. Isn't that the way its supposed to work? You show me your worth it and I'll give it to you, I'm not just going to give it up and hope you come through for me.

Yep!,
thats the way it should be.

Sounds like your paying him whats hes worth, when hes worth more, you'll pay him more, right? Regardless of what you charge pmh.

 

[Jumper]

You can pay it out in taxes, or you can pay it out in health care premiums, which in routine cases are pushing four figures per month for a family plan with any degree of coverage. Each system has its advantages.

I doubt this guy is going to stick around in the long run at $12/hr especially if he is expected to climb.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

You can pay it out in taxes, or you can pay it out in health care premiums, which in routine cases are pushing four figures per month for a family plan with any degree of coverage. Each system has its advantages.

I doubt this guy is going to stick around in the long run at $12/hr especially if he is expected to climb.

He's climbed one tree. Climber in training and as I said before, when the skills improve so will the wage. Right now he can run a saw and haul brush, thats it.

 

[tophopper]

Why does everyone assume this kid is underpaid? Canuck never said he was locked in at 12 bucks for life, hes saying, before he pays the kid more he needs to earn it.
Simple as that. Sometimes what you earn on a job far outweighs what goes in your pocket.

 

[Shespen]

Equipment and gas are considered "descretionary" costs. Meaning that is costs that you have control over. I was refering to payroll costs that you have no control over. Costs that are associated with how much you pay an employee. Each State, Province, Country, County and city wants their fair share. Not to mention Workers compensation expenses. All these costs are usually charged as a direct percentage of what you pay your employee. Some workers compensation is charged a flat rate instead of a percentage. These costs that are directly tied to how much you pay your employee are the only costs that are considered when you are figuring out what your "cost to employ" figures are. You should know what these figures are If you are an employer. If you don't then call your accountant or book keeper and find out. If you are an employee then ask your boss what the figures are and be prepared for a shock.
As a little experiment I would like to see some of you post these figures for your area just for comparison. Lets base the employee wage at $15.00/hr and $20.00/hr just so we are comparing apples to apples. Itemize the costs. Crazy Canuck, or any other Canadien's out there, Could you explain how your health Insurance is payed for up there? Is everyone taxed or just employers or how does that work? Down here, employers are not required to pay for or provide health Insurance and therefor many don't. I know that it isn't free as many employees seem to think. Should we enter that cost into the equation also for say, just the employee for comparison or is that not a "cost to employ" ? Down here it is a choice so that is not usually considered a cost to employ.

 

[clearance]

Crazy-I hope this guy gets a job in the oilpatch or cutting siesmic lines where he gets paid a decent wage. You should think yourself lucky, some groundsman here can't tie a bowline, can't use a saw without burying it in the dirt, can't begin to sharpen a saw and so on. They complain about "only" 12hr.. If I had my way they would be gone, but something is better than nothing I guess.