When lion tailing works

[xtremetrees]

When thinning laterals from a limb, an effort should be made to maintain well-spaced inner lateral branches to achieve a even distribution of foliage along the branch. Lion tailing, which is caused by removing all of the inner laterals and foliage.
Symptoms of lion taling are: sunburned bark tissue, water sprouts, weakened branch structure and breakage."

My area has alot of Quercus Virginiana
Lion tailing werks on this tree let me tell ya. None of the symptoms (bad) are displayed once this type of cleaning is done to them. With the exception of water sprouts I've often cursed one of the first tree companies for instituting this procedual applicatin througout our forest here on the coast. After years of debate in my head. I think lion tailing these oaks is actually good.

What do you think? Is lion taling this species good, bad, or benefitial to the community
By the way the trees have drawn the g8 sumit this spring

Let me tell ya removals on these buggers are the hardest. Its all squirrling out on branches with no tie in point.

 

[xtremetrees]

black oak (Quercus velutina)!

Some of these too. This is the champ of Virginia

 

[Lumberjack]

Wow that second tree is huge!! The first one aint that small either!

The inner lateral branches on most species should maintain a scaffold spacing. I have noticed tho on some very mature trees in certain species (elm, some live oaks, ect) that there are few if any inner branches, and that is the way they have grown, not from someone doing it. So possibly so, but maybe not. I think that it is best to keep the tree in its natural state. If it has inner branches, maintain them, if not then keep the inside clean from deadwood and other problems, and work out on the tips.

 

[Stumper]

Quercus virgiana tends to naturally have a very open center when mature/"overmature" but don't mistake that for lionstailing. Lionstailing IS a very common practice on Live Oaks-it pushes the tree into an overmature appearance early. It is still bad. cleaning the interior enough to show the scaffold branches is one thing, stripping out the whole branch another. Take a drive around a neighborhood with lots of Live Oaks after a hurricane. The ones that were lionstailed the worst tend to have the most damaged and broken limbs. The reason is that stripping the limbs eliminates mass dampening and leaves most of the weight and sail on the tips where weight and sail have the most leverage. Result: more whipping , greater stresses , more breakage. Don't lionstail.:angel:

 

[Lumberjack]

Thats what I was tryin to get at.


Spot on Stumper!

 

[xtremetrees]

Thanks for the insight lumberjack and stumper

I had to rope out one of these monsters over a house once. The wood was so big i had to cut it long enuff to hold the rope. A real delimia. 1inch 3-strand bull rope was all we had cut the chunks long enuff to hold the rope. Ran the 3 strand bull rope thru a carabiner. Started ropeing out 4 foot long chucnks about 40 inchs diameters. Well, the bull rope started breaking pink! one strand. Breaking at the carabiner and bunching up like a bad sock! Pink! 2nd strand!......
this 800 pound chunck was left hanging about a foot from the roof on 1 strand about as small as my pinky!
Let me tell ya Pheewwww!!!!
the 2 strands had bunched up like a bad sock at the carabiner.
This stuff cuts like dog gone concrete.
Modulous of rupture around 12,000 lbs. I think.
Do it all with nothing!

 

[Lumberjack]

I think that it would be a blast to remove one of these monsters, but may I recommend double braid, either in Super (better for more abrasive conditions) or Stable braid for more SWL. 3 stand aint that great, for rigging down wood, IMO. Running it through a biner on heavy loads like that aint the best either.

But I aint tryin to insult your intelligence or bust your balls. Got pics?

 

[Stumper]

Xtreme, As you have already learned through experience. Bending a large rope over a small radius is a big no no-It can have less holding strength than using a small rope to begin with. Use the bull rope but runn it through a block not a 'biner.

 

[Lumberjack]

Yeah, the minimum manufactors reccomended ratio of sheeve diameter to rope diameter is 4:1. Would have to use a 4" sheeve (not cheap) on the 1" 3 strand. You could have the same SWL on 5/8" super braid, and blocks for 5/8" are much cheaper.

 

[ORclimber]

I've also noticed crowncleaning can resemble lions-tailing. Mostly on trees that have never been pruned and the inner branches have been shaded out. Also, some pine trees' needles only live so many years, leaving the inside of their branches bare.

 

[xtremetrees]

After lion tailing. Alot of calls to return to the trees and remove sucker growth.

This area of growth after the apical bud (laterals)has been removed is profuse. Is there any growth regulators to inhibit the meristem(ie. shoots) Is there a paint or a sealant you could apply directly to these cuts to spot the suckers from returning.
Paint yourself out of a job kinda but anywaysss.

Stop not spot

 

[wiley_p]

I think the oaks may look like they are doing well, but regardless lion tailing destroys branch taper. That is the worst side effect of it also deadwooding is not needed unless the material is of a size to be considered hazardous. Deadwooding keeps tree climbers busy. In the case of pines and other conifers good habitat is destroyed by removing int3rior deadwood, as well as exposing thin upper bark to the evil ball of fire in the sky.

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by xtremetrees
After lion tailing. Alot of calls to return to the trees and remove sucker growth.

This area of growth after the apical bud (laterals)has been removed is profuse. Is there any growth regulators to inhibit the meristem(ie. shoots) Is there a paint or a sealant you could apply directly to these cuts to spot the suckers from returning.
Paint yourself out of a job kinda but anywaysss.

Yeah, dont do it to start with, and if someone else does it, dont do it again to "fix the tree" rather train the sprouts back into inner laterals rather than removing them.

As for a spray, I dunno.

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by wiley_p
I think the oaks may look like they are doing well, but regardless lion tailing destroys branch taper. That is the worst side effect of it also deadwooding is not needed unless the material is of a size to be considered hazardous. Deadwooding keeps tree climbers busy. In the case of pines and other conifers good habitat is destroyed by removing int3rior deadwood, as well as exposing thin upper bark to the evil ball of fire in the sky.

Removing deadwood, IMO, helps the trees compatmentalize faster, and reduces the amount of twigs and branches that fall out onto the coustomers yard during the smallest of storms. Deadwood doesn't look good in the tree, but having lots of little twigs to rake off your lawn doesnt look good either.

 

[xtremetrees]

Originally posted by wiley_p
I think the oaks may look like they are doing well, but regardless lion tailing destroys branch taper. That is the worst side effect of it also deadwooding is not needed unless the material is of a size to be considered hazardous. Deadwooding keeps tree climbers busy. In the case of pines and other conifers good habitat is destroyed by removing int3rior deadwood, as well as exposing thin upper bark to the evil ball of fire in the sky.

Good point wiley,
Except that these tree naturally have this form this is what lion talining on this species is acceptable I think. Doe sit reduce the taper and elongate the branches a considerable amount ?
Does it make them more prone to wind damage?
I do not think so because they naturally grow without many laterals anyway.

 

[Stumper]

Xtreme, You're not listening...............

 

[xtremetrees]

lol
I am submitting my application to ISA today.
I am contacting my attourneys to change the regulation concerning lion tailing on this particular species.Just kidding
your right stumper, however companies that are huge and practially invented tree work along the coast of georgia have always done trees in such a manner. Now they are cashing in on hte unsighty appearance of sucker growth.
ISA came along to late to prevent this.
Ill be posting this thread to the areas local newspaper. So by the way your all being published

I hope they approve my app.

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by xtremetrees
Good point wiley,
Except that these tree naturally have this form this is what lion talining on this species is acceptable I think. Doe sit reduce the taper and elongate the branches a considerable amount ?
Does it make them more prone to wind damage?
I do not think so because they naturally grow without many laterals anyway.

It aint like you are gonna graft on inner branches, but it takes a very mature tree to shade out the inner canopy.

 

[xtremetrees]

Originally posted by Lumberjack
It aint like you are gonna graft on inner branches, but it takes a very mature tree to shade out the inner canopy.

Thats the point ive been looking for. How does doing it early affect the tree in its later years again. Reduces taper? Major sucker growth?

 

[Lumberjack]

Yes, it increases sprout production, and reduces taper. Think of limbs like trees. Strong trees have a balanced canopy and a good taper running up the trunk.

If you liontail then the taper (making) is removed, making the limbs more flexible, and not as strong. Then you have the sprouts that degrade the trees apperance, and take away from the energy reserves.

I dont think that mass dampining applies to limbs as much as trees, because the inner laterals lack enough mass to dampin movement. Rather when you liontail, it increases the mass on the tips from increased foilage, and that offers a larger "sail" for the wind to catch.