why is face only 1/3?
- Thread starter cmossol
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
Yeah right, pity you can't understand the silliness of it! You're falling a tree doing the cuts in reverse order, I'd be a absolute numbskull if I thought it wasn't going to pinch the bar every time if I did it, what's your excuse?
Joe Kuhn
Hobby Repairman
@Ted Jenkins , do you really do your cuts in the order shown in your diagram? I thought perhaps your diagram was mistaken. I'm a rookie at this and your diagram is misleading according to what I've seen on YouTube as in:
I'm studying the Terry Hale videos now...
I'm studying the Terry Hale videos now...
What Ted posted is for felling against the natural lean. There are many different methods described for felling trees; some apply to specific situations, where a conventional cut, for felling a perfect, ‘telephone pole’ style tree, do not work so well.
Philbert
Philbert
Joe Kuhn
Hobby Repairman
I see. I'm skipping ahead in Terry Hale's series to see what he says about back leaners.
He says there are basically 3 ways to handle a back leaner:
1. Take it apart piece by piece with a lot of special equipment.
2. Use a bucket truck or a crane.
3. Pull the tree to vertical, then past vertical...
He looks at #3 with a man and then a pickup pulling the tree to vertical, then past for the fall. The forces involved are large which he explains with a lot of math. Not sure of his recommendation here, but then I'm going to call a professional in this case.
Terry then discusses the direction of the fall on a back leaner in his second video. His main discussion here involves rigging lines. He has some very helpful drawings here. At the end he says there's shear danger on the hinge and suggests the hinge cutting be reversed effectively turning up upside down, like this, with the direction of intended fall to the right (back lean to the left).
The straight cut is below the notch as shown above. He does not discuss what side to cut first nor does he ever mention wedges as Ted does.
To the contrary, it seems to me Ted is talking about very slight back leaners. Would like to see a real life example from Ted. I'm even more skeptical about Ted's suggestions now.
I'm scared by all this, but am ok with my fear. I feel it is a healthy fear that will drive me to hire a professional when there is a back lean involved. However, I'm really enjoying the learning and look forward to my next opportunity to fell a tree safely.
Wow am surprised that more people have no experience at larger trees. The charts are accurate and exact in sequence. Here we have thousands of soft wood trees near houses and out buildings. I would get many upon many calls calls to remove trees leaning towards some thing. I know several guys that just call the crane service if a tree is leaning wrong. This operation can add up to months to schedule all parties for removal which also adds several thousands of dollars to cost. Then depending on time of year it is it can also bring about a dangerous situation. So when the tree is with in reason it can be safely removed with just wedges. On some trees the top can be chunked down then the rest fallen where it needs to go. I prefer to leave as much of the tree intact until I can determinine that a tree is going to behave as planned thus cutting the face cut last. The face cut side of the tree has zero weight on it because the tree is leaning away from that side of tree. I also do not want to be generous with the hinge or holding wood. I like to leave plenty of wood there so as to have plenty of control until the very last moment as I can to see that it is going to go as planned. I also prepare with a back up device like a cross bow to shoot a line over the treee to attach a tag line or two or three. The back cut is also pretty safe to cut with out pinching bar because the OP is only going to cut about about 25% of tree before sticking wedges behind the bar. At that moment where as the wedges can not be driven into the tree enough to allow the OP to continue cutting then alternate methods need to be used. There is a method to the sequence that is important. Thanks
h
Watch the Guilty of Treeson video to the end. The last tree they fall, Jed discusses back leaners with the back cut first. It works okay. The principle is to get the tree vertical without compromising the wood that’s pulling against the lean. Cutting the back allows you to wedge the tree to near vertical and then make your face while the face side isn’t the compression side. Your bar will not be pinched by getting the tree to near vertical. Once the face is in, you bang your wedges until the tree goes over.
The bar won’t get pinched making the face with the back cut first and then wedging it. However, this only applies to back leaning trees. It is not a good technique to use on anything else. That technique will also only work on trees that can be brought vertical with wedges or a tree jack. I would not use this around any targets. Otherwise, you need a rigging line attached to something solid, or a big piece of gear to push it over. I think August Hunicke put out a video of his crew pulling over a big oak tree not all that long ago.
Terry's description using a person or vehicle I find ridiculous because of experience this is not a great plan. I had a tree some fifty years ago that needed a nudge. so I hook up a line ( about 20,000 lb. ) to my Bronco and gave it a pull as nothing happened so I give a little more gas and yes the tree finally moved. However in the process the tree fell and twisted lifting the Bronco about a foot off the ground. It was a great wake up call not to do that again.I went over my notes to see what went wrong well pretty much every thing. So ever since I go over my notes often twice. I keep on hand about ten operational come a longs with a snatch block pully on each one. Mostly I use 4,000 lb. types. Recently I posted an ordeal here where I had a dangerous Oak tree to be pulled up hill or away from the direction it was leaning. I shot three lines about seventy feet up. Each line had 20,000 lb test or more. It took three days to properly prepare the lines and rigging before I started a saw. While all this was going on the owner his wife and a couple of friends set out lawn chairs on the edge of their drive way drinking beer. I set up five come alongs and pulled them tight. The tree maybe moved a half of a degree so I set up two more. With seven of them tight the tree started to sway so cut a face cut and then started the back cut. After the back cut was about 16'' in it started to make noice. So I tightened all the come alongs and yes it with nearly 30,000 lbs of force fell into many pieces where it was planned. So some times brute force is needed, but practice is essential. Thanks
the reversed back cut is solid advice, I regularly pull or push trees over with an excavator, they can sheer off if the back cut is flush or higher then the face, which is nominally what you would want, but if your going to be pushing it, it could sever that wood, and have the tree flop over on top of the machine... which is bad em kay
for most slight back leaners is overkill, but I like insurance lol, the other option catbuster mentions is to back cut first and hammer in a couple wedges, then make your face cut and pound it over. depending on the lean you can put enough pressure on the wedges to pinch the bar, but you would need a massive sledge hammer on most trees lol, really just getting the wedges snugged up before creating the face is all that is necessary, then finish em once the tree is weakened and aimed
There's actually only three ways to fall a tree, the right way, the wrong way & the bosses way.
With teds method he explains how he moves the tree with the wedges & opens up the back cut, in the video the guy doesn't do that, the tree is held in exactly the same lean with the wedges holding the tree in position , when he does the scarf cut there is no compression wood on that side, with teds method there is because the compression has been transferred to that side by the trees lean moving in the direction of the intended fall, also when ever pushing from behind or pulling by an external force the back cut has to be lower than the scarf to stop the butt if the tree being pushed or pulled off the stump & it going back the wrong way, possibly over the cab of a machine, the guys in the video had the backcut higher & pushed over the tree with the machine, which isn't the safest practice
Joe Kuhn
Hobby Repairman
Looks like I've got some studying up to do. Those guys have a lot of videos on YouTube. Did you have a specific one in mind?
Back cut first is a completely legitimate way to fall a tree, however it's a highly advanced technique and is only necessary in very specific situations.
When done correctly you will NOT pinch your bar in the undercut because there is not significant compression on the undercut side of the tree. When used on an appropriate tree for this technique the face cut would be in wood under significant tension. The idea of this technique is to reduce or eliminate the tension therefore allowing a face cut to be placed in neutral or slightly compressed wood. Definitely not compressed enough to cause bar pinching. If you are able to put that much compression into the face cut side of the tree before making the face cut, you didn't need to use this technique in the first place.
Also, if you get your bar pinched in the under cut of ANY (non-compromised/rotted/etc) tree, you simply cut too far. If a tree is putting heavy compression on the side of the under cut, there is no need for a big undercut. If the compression is on the face cut side, physics says the tree will go the way you want it to already. Small face cut is all that's necessary and if it's a significant lean, you need a small face cut to insure you have enough wood to bore the back cut to avoid a barber chair.
When done correctly you will NOT pinch your bar in the undercut because there is not significant compression on the undercut side of the tree. When used on an appropriate tree for this technique the face cut would be in wood under significant tension. The idea of this technique is to reduce or eliminate the tension therefore allowing a face cut to be placed in neutral or slightly compressed wood. Definitely not compressed enough to cause bar pinching. If you are able to put that much compression into the face cut side of the tree before making the face cut, you didn't need to use this technique in the first place.
Also, if you get your bar pinched in the under cut of ANY (non-compromised/rotted/etc) tree, you simply cut too far. If a tree is putting heavy compression on the side of the under cut, there is no need for a big undercut. If the compression is on the face cut side, physics says the tree will go the way you want it to already. Small face cut is all that's necessary and if it's a significant lean, you need a small face cut to insure you have enough wood to bore the back cut to avoid a barber chair.
As far as a perfectly balanced tree situation.
Place wedges on evenly balanced trees. Why? Because sometimes there's more weight in certain limbs than you think and WIND! Wind is unpredictable.
Place wedges on evenly balanced trees. Why? Because sometimes there's more weight in certain limbs than you think and WIND! Wind is unpredictable.
Every area country and county has a different set of challenges. Some aspects of trees do not change however. In the area I currently live there are many residential neighborhoods where as the houses are surrounded by soft wood trees. Pine White Fir Cedar. The tree roots crack near by improvements, become sickly, insect infestation etc. The property owners wants the tree gone or utility companies ask owner to remove. Some times utility companies send in their own crew. Most properties are on a hill side from mild to barely able to walk steep. Thus most yard areas or surrounding area around a home is unaccessible by tractor or pickup. The crane service here stays very well scheduled aiding tree workers removing or other such needs. So this environment of unwanted trees can be a challenge. Property owner does not care how just get the thing gone. Most trees get the top thirty to forty feet whacked then remainder of the tree needs to come down. The fastest easiest and cheapest way for a tree that is leaning where it does not need to go is wedge or jack the tree into submission. Some times tag lines are needed if the lean of the tree is severe enough. When fall time comes an owner will ask for a Arbor related person to come and check on their tree only to find they will have to wait up to six months as few will commit to winter work. Then people who understand the removal process become a desired extreme premium. The safest way that I have seen heard of or experienced is to leave the maximum amount of tree intact until the OP can see that the tree is going where it is desired.
When after careful evaluation a leaning tree can be safely be removed. From watching experimenting with great success leads me to believe my MO is the best there is period as I have watched many others attempt with out perfect success. I did have an opportunity watching a contractor after pleading with the crew to listen up as what they were doing was unsafe. About an hour later the utility company arrived with LE so participates could spend the night in jail. BTW I did not mention was evaluation of the trunk area where the cutting is to take place. If there is decay or suspected rot then these things must be taken into consideration. It is a very happy moment when after considerable time and effort the thing falls with in a foot or two of where it needs to go. Thanks
When after careful evaluation a leaning tree can be safely be removed. From watching experimenting with great success leads me to believe my MO is the best there is period as I have watched many others attempt with out perfect success. I did have an opportunity watching a contractor after pleading with the crew to listen up as what they were doing was unsafe. About an hour later the utility company arrived with LE so participates could spend the night in jail. BTW I did not mention was evaluation of the trunk area where the cutting is to take place. If there is decay or suspected rot then these things must be taken into consideration. It is a very happy moment when after considerable time and effort the thing falls with in a foot or two of where it needs to go. Thanks
Jhenderson
Addicted to ArboristSite
In jail? Really? For what? This aught to be good!
I could give a lot of details, but the answer is they knocked down a 6,000 volt power line apparently they were already warned about. The power company did not receive it well along with a thousand home owners with out power. Thanks
Dig up stoopid.
hitting a power line is bad yes, but not exactly criminal, expensive and more then likely the end of your business, but not a jailable offence.
I have to wonder about most of your posts, if they are not completely *****, they are sprinkled with enough plausibility to make noobs think you might actually know what your talking about, and that is dangerous.
there is a reason you are on my ignore list, but there is also a reason I feel it necessary to comment on your lack of understanding or perhaps outright lies from time to time. believe it or not my ignore list is quite short. But its full of liars, cons, and unrepentant trolls
Jhenderson
Addicted to ArboristSite
I thought he might take the hint and slink away quietly but oh no, time to double down on the B.S. Not to mention using using implausible voltage . If you’re going to tell a whopper you should at least get the proper associated facts and figures to back it up.
I would have that IGNORE button checked it maybe has some flaws. Thanks
Similar threads
