Will this tree fall? (VIDEO INCLUDED) YOU OPINION WANTED!!

[NCTREE]

That's a huge amount of tree hanging over that house in a codominant situation (which may or may not exhibit included bark - can't tell in video). And, that's a lot of decay at the base of the tree. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the decay is on the same side as the large leader growing over the house? I think anything other than removal is a gamble. If the homeowner is willing to take the risk, then kudos to them. I love large trees and that one is beautiful, but if that's my house and those are my kids sleeping in there, I'm cuttin' it into bits and I'm feelin bad the whole time I'm doin it. Call me uneducated, unsophisticated, or emotional. Here's my "professional diagnosis": that tree cannot be made unquestionably safe.

I agree, there is too much liability hanging over that house. No one can say exactly when a tree is going to fail. This tree as two red flags going against it, my vote is take it down.

 

[treeseer]

dennis you are welcome here and i will not report your post and move to get you banned--as long as you are not a Carolina fan!

Let's stay on track--Sanborn's point about finding out depth was key because that measures support. you can remove anything loose and tap with a hammer to listen for hollowness. i don't think you'll hear any, so readboth's tip re foam earplug on drill is a good one. you can use a 1/8" x 12" drill bit with a tolerable amount of collateral damage, considering the risk.

A sharp chisel can trace the dead bark on the right side. stop when/before you get to bright, moist--living--tissue. Then finish the rcx on the back side, focusing on that orange...conk?...and make another movie! Height doe snot matter much. In the meantime, in case you didn't see this in 2006, please review the attached and see if it makes sense to you (and you too Ms. Homeowner--pardon the sidechat).

The author may seem egotistical on the forum but knows that science evolves, and he has a lot to learn! :monkey: Big trees have a way of humbling us all, whether we are climbing them or cutting them or assessing them or just witnessing their majesty.

 

[arborist]

First,I would like to share this will all:

ISA Certified Arborist's Code of Ethics policy…

ISA Certification is in the process of implementing an ISA Certified Arborist's Code of Ethics policy to serve as a central guide and reference for arborist’s in support of their day-to-day decision making. It is meant to define our organization's mission, values and principles, linking them with standards of professional conduct and industry standards. This document will be an important communication tool to help sustain consistency around the world and create an even playing field for all Certified Arborists.

The Code of Ethics policy will be sent to all current ISA Certified Arborist to sign in the next few months and will become part of the application process for all new incoming applicants. We anticipate that implementing this policy will help to reduce poor professional conduct and practices. ISA Certified Arborists will be held accountable for their actions and in turn improve their business relations within their community and amongst their peers. This Code of Ethics will offer an invaluable opportunity for ISA to continue building a positive industry image which will increase confidence and trust in our certification program.


secondly,
wecuttrees Your doing the correct thing by asking and gathering others opinions.Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.I can only hope your client reading in,understands your helpful,unselfish attitude to offer a helping hand and at no charge to boot!
That's very admirable of you sir.

Dr. wecuttrees,
There is simply not enough information posted to be able to determine the overall heath and structure of this tree.


for example,this one:

I'm all for preservation first.
Years ago,I've pruned far,far worse than this(Red oak),and the tree is located next to a home/drive.
Due to the overall conditions of everything,it was a success and is still standing today and will likely live many more years.
As you know however,there are many factors and of course,there's nothing like having a qualified arborsit with years of experience on site to consult with you about the particulars.

First,the species........ What kind of tree is this?
Either the pics/footage is poor,or I'm clueless to what it is lol sorry.

 

[treevet]

secondly,
wecuttrees Your doing the correct thing by asking and gathering others opinions.Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.I can only hope your client reading in,understands your helpful,unselfish attitude to offer a helping hand and at no charge to boot!
That's very admirable of you sir.

Dr. wecuttrees,
There is simply not enough information posted to be able to determine the overall heath and structure of this tree.

As you know however,there are many factors and of course,there's nothing like having a qualified arborsit with years of experience on site to consult with you about the particulars.

I see these as contradicting statements.

 

[outofmytree]

Don't mind TV he can be ornery but he knows his stuff.

Wecuttrees why not follow the general flow of advice and seek the input of a consulting arborist on site. I often do this and ask if I may listen in to expand my knowledge. It has gained me a new appreciation for the gap between my level of understanding and a consultants as well as the appreciation of the HO for being honest enough to say, "I don't know but I will find someone who does".

Everyone has something to learn about trees. Even Shigo said he was still a student of Arboriculture. Points to you for at least having a go.

 

[wecuttrees]

Hey OutofMytree and everyone

Don't mind TV he can be ornery but he knows his stuff.

Wecuttrees why not follow the general flow of advice and seek the input of a consulting arborist on site. .

I agree. In fact, last night I wrote to the client asking if she had been keeping up with the thread.

Actually, THanks to EVERYONE for the feedback (you too TreeVet )

I wrote her and told her that I was hoping this exact thing would happen. (minus the arguing of course)

However, all that aside, I think a TON of good has come out of this.

I learned a lot, and I am sure she has too. Also, the tree will have a WAY better chance of having a truly qualified person to look at it instead of the guy with the biggest ad.

Honestly, thanks to everyone for sharing. It has been a real help

 

[treevet]

Good show wecuttrees.....keep us updated with some picts. if you don't mind. We care.

 

[treeseer]

"Here's my "professional diagnosis": that tree cannot be made unquestionably safe."

This adds nothing, for the same can be said for every tree. Fearmongering removalist :spam:

wecut if you want to stop now go ahead, but it seems untimely. A shovel and a trowel and a claw hammer can tell you a lot.

Owner, if you do call a consultant, ask for references. Many are not current on tree risk assessment. Some know it, many don't--or are less than frank about that. :censored:

 

[chewbacca]

"fearmongering removalist" - that would really hurt my feelings if I thought you meant that Neither one of those words describes me.

 

[treeseer]

"fearmongering removalist" - that would really hurt my feelings if I thought you meant that Neither one of those words describes me.

They weren't meant to be personal--they were adjectives for "Spam".

"Here's my "professional diagnosis": that tree cannot be made unquestionably safe."

Since those words describe every tree on earth, it's not clear what they mean.

Anyway, if wecut is done assessing, this thread is dead. Lotsa good firewood there in Hot 'lanta!

 

[Rftreeman]

I've been reading the responses on this site for some time and man do some of you come across as egotistical ("IMO").

To me this site should be where professionals meet to get the professional input of others. Instead they are met with post that amount to "you don't know what the heck you are doing, so you should get a real man to do the job and stick to the trimming hedges! Better yet, do us professionals a favor and get out of the business because you're a diaper wearing know-nothing."

Geez! IT'S TREES LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! Quit acting like you're a thoracic surgeon!

(Well, so much for me ever networking with the tree gods on here. Hopefully my first post won't get me permanently banned. )

I think you'll fit in just find here.........



back on topic.........I'd be laying a chainsaw to that tree in a NY minute....

 

[treevet]

Hopefully there will be some follow up comments after more qualified arborists visit the site and in the best case scenario the tree can be left there for a while. The HO must be inclined that way or this would not have lasted as long as it has (hunting and gathering investigative stage). Hopefully the neighbors involved are also on board with this attitude.

If some major buttress roots remain near the wound, decay has not progressed very much, there are no cracks in the stem, the primary pathogen/s are cultured and not found to be exceptionally virulent, the prevailing winds blow away from the houses involved, a cable system can mitigate the co dominant and other structural worries, the vigor and vitality of the tree is high, possibly there is a tree in the opposite direction from the houses that the tree might be anchored to. The HO and poss. with the help of neighbors can afford the treatments and monitoring costs.......then

the tree can stay around for a while longer. Isn't that really what all organisms are trying to do? Get in another day, then another?

My advice would also be to check insurance coverage in relation to tree damage and make sure of coverage in the event of failure. Like Guy said, any tree can fail and just because this tree has more issues than a less compromised tree does not make it a "must remove" in the ins. co.s eyes. I have had a multitude of trees over the years that were not perfect (none are) be covered when they slammed houses. The only MUST remove or lose coverage is obviously a totally dead tree.

Shigo was mentioned earlier along with the thought that even "experts" may be suspect in their ability to properly evaluate this situation. Shigo used to often muse as to the need for "specialists" in our profession that were credentialed. Tree risk evaluators, infectious disease specialists, root zone specialists, support systems experts, funding specialists, etc, etc, are some of what I imagine he would have in mind in this case. It might even be of some use in support of the tree staying to have the tree professionally evaluated as to a monetary value in relation to the property value.

 

[Boa07]

Well thoght through comments Treevet, good post....I've rambled on over at TB on the same topics so I won't repeat the dose here!

 

[treevet]

I think you'll fit in just find here.........



back on topic.........I'd be laying a chainsaw to that tree in a NY minute....

Forgot to add one other specialist.....the undertaker. All these other specialists hopefully keep you from the undertaker.

Imagine if the undertaker was to decide if we living humans should be euthanized because we were going to die soon or were incapacitated to the point that we could fall on someone?

Also have a question.....how does the arborist that has spent countless hours studying trees through books, seminars, research, insights, etc., etc., when conversing with those that have not spent hardly any time.....not come off sounding arrogant? Should they "dumb" it down, or just not say anything?

What if that stem comes up being, say, in the 80% solid range?

 

[NCTREE]

Hopefully there will be some follow up comments after more qualified arborists visit the site and in the best case scenario the tree can be left there for a while. The HO must be inclined that way or this would not have lasted as long as it has (hunting and gathering investigative stage). Hopefully the neighbors involved are also on board with this attitude.

That's if the customer is willing to pay for a "qualified arborist" to do the tests and examinations to determine whether this tree is safe. After the fact their is still no guarantees that this tree is safe enough to remain. This tree will need treatment and constant monitoring for the life of the tree which can be costly. Eventually this tree will have to be removed. The bottom line comes down to the customer and how much he/she is willing to invest in saving this tree.

 

[treevet]

Well thoght through comments Treevet, good post....I've rambled on over at TB on the same topics so I won't repeat the dose here!

Thanks, Sean, I for one would like to hear a little as I do not visit there much and have not read that thread over there as likely many here have not.

 

[NCTREE]

Does anyone read TCI magazine? Their is a good article on "Sources of Bias when assessing Tree Risk" in this month's issue.

 

[Rftreeman]

Forgot to add one other specialist.....the undertaker. All these other specialists hopefully keep you from the undertaker.


Imagine if the undertaker was to decide if we living humans should be euthanized because we were going to die soon or were incapacitated to the point that we could fall on someone?

we all will meet him at some time or another........I ain't scared of the undertaker, are you? Besides, we're talking trees here not people.......

Also have a question.....how does the arborist that has spent countless hours studying trees through books, seminars, research, insights, etc., etc., when conversing with those that have not spent hardly any time.....not come off sounding arrogant? Should they "dumb" it down, or just not say anything?

that's up to you....but why don't you try to give advice rather than try to make yourself look so much better than the ones who don't have the edumacation that you do........

What if that stem comes up being, say, in the 80% solid range?

what if it wasn't and you made the mistake of telling the H/O the tree was going to be ok and not fall then the next week it falls on the house killing everyone inside, is that your fault....what I'm selling is a 100% cure for that problem, removal, get rid of it, nip it in the bud and so on, get my point.........

 

[treevet]

what if it wasn't and you made the mistake of telling the H/O the tree was going to be ok and not fall then the next week it falls on the house killing everyone inside, is that your fault....what I'm selling is a 100% cure for that problem, removal, get rid of it, nip it in the bud and so on, get my point.........

Things have evolved a lot. The amount and location of that decay can be quantified. No guess work involved if the client has a strong desire in keeping that tree. Decay/delignifying organisms can be identified to some extent to predict future progression of the decay. Vitality can be improved through cultural practices that will aid compartmentalization, aid in putting on new strong annual future wood to compensate. We're not just talking about this tree but it is an example for others as well.

Yeah, I get your point, but do you get the other side at all? How do you know there IS any problem.....yet?

Famous last words after the trunk hits the deck...."man, I thought that decay would have been a lot deeper than that.....hook up the crane to it and let's get it outta here before the HO sees it".

 

[treevet]

that's up to you....but why don't you try to give advice rather than try to make yourself look so much better than the ones who don't have the edumacation that you do........

Thought I was giving advice and can't recall "trying to make myself look so much better...."

But I will take that under advisement and work on it.