winch anchor point

[ROLLACOSTA]

if winching over a butt is necessery..yet theres no suitable winching point avalable ie no other larger tree or vehicle etc [i dont like winching off trees unless there big ]what do you guys use ive used turfor anchors and didnt think they where very good ..didnt hold in the ground very well..ive seen special anchors used by 4x4 off roaders and wonderd if any of you had used these devices

 

[treeman82]

I had been to a seminar a year ago where this guy from VT was speaking. All his company does is bracing systems. One of the gadgets he uses when he needs to get certain angles are thse tripod type deals with a channel at the top to run the cables through. IMO, if you REALLY needed to, you could make a big base, and get a couple feet of lift off of one of those.

 

[Trees Company]

What do you mean buy winching over a but? Do you mean dropping a stem?

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

yeah sorry winching over a trunk:

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

No suitable anchors within line of the pull? Or none anywhere?

Pile of wood from rest of takedown for anchor for winch or for hand powered leverage etc.?

If you wanted to pull stump over from 6 o'clock to 12o'clock, and had an anchor at 2 and able to pull from 9, you could prolly float a pulley off of 2 oclock anchor and redirect a 9c'clock pull to pull stump from 6 to 12. Can also pull to a point not favored and set hinge to fall to target, like the off balanced pull was head weight you were fighting.

Leave stump higher to give more leveraged pull potential to leverage over easier. Use a 'reverse stump cut' if short stump, and you just need it pulled off of saw. Instead of pull with line, push with stacked wedges in the same direction, or in addition to hand pull?

Just some ideas, McGuyver would think of something!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If there is enough rope, I can usually find a place to redirect off of. If the anchor points are small then multiple slings on different points with a rigging plate.

There is an Army FM on line FM 5-125 that has some good designs for feild expediant gound anchors.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I've never had this problem before.

Are you trying to pull the snag back from a lean, or something?

 

[John Ellison]

If I understand the question right, you need a tail holt (a loggers term) where there is none. Right?
Drive a truck axel in the ground, or several tied together.
Today I started on a job taking out about thirty pine trees next to a house. It's the same situation where there is no tail holt where they need to go. Luckily about half have a favorable lean and I can fall a couple and cross the tops, then hang a block from a choker around where the tops cross and pull off of that.
Hemlock had the idea of the axel, never tried it but I'm sure it would work. Guess it just depends on what you are trying to pull over.

John

 

[murphy4trees]

On rare occcasion.. sink a digging bar on a slight angle, as deep as possible... back up with a second bar or fencepost when needed...
Use the old standard 17 wrap french prussic and long lever to remove... IT WORKS

 

[TimberMcPherson]

The long bar rammed into the ground is a great system but you can greatly improve its ability to hold by putting a second bar infront of it horizontally and bury it less than a foot deep. (the head of a spade is a pretty practical depth although deeper is better) Its the same system we used to use in mountaineering as an abseil anchor with ice axes (cool thing was that once we abseiled down by pulling the rope a certain way we could retrieve the ice axes!

The theory is that the anchor has to move as much earth as possible to to be pulled out. Warratah stakes are light and easy to carry and if you use a self equalizing system they can take alot of punishment.(just apply lots!) Its also important to make a system that if one part fails that the system can still hold. Angles between the anchors are EXTREMELY critical. If you link the anchors with any more than a 45 degree angle your putting to much unessesary strain on the anchors.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

The Manual JP posted is famous for having solutions like these explained, tweaked and pictured.

When fortifying one stake with another or more; the backup stakes go to the opposite direction of pull. You tie from high on the first stake, to low on the next one and tighten with twisting stick or something. Then you might tie from high on the 2nd stake to low on the 3rd etc.

For the pull you would tie in low to the first. The higher reinforcing ties give leveraged reinforcement against forward movement; you go low to the next, so that the pull form the first reinforcement can't take leverage on the 2nd etc.


There are other things in that Army Manual for men needing power to build and move things positively, like thier life depended on it in enemy territory etc. You might dig a small shelf and take the heavy wood you already removed and lock it into the shelf, so that you can pull against that arraingement etc.

You might also need an anchor like this to redirect a truck pull, anchor for Z-Rig etc. Lots of uses for anchors, many times a basic, essential need to construction, destruction, thus that lil'Army Manual JP posted.

 

[John Ellison]

Right Spyder. Also applies to fence building, if you dont want your corner posts to lean over.

John

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
I've never had this problem before.

Are you trying to pull the snag back from a lean, or something?

yes a lean ,we could section it down but as there are lots of trees on this job with a lean ,winching over would be a lot quicker

 

[RescueMan]

Creating Anchors

Here's a pic with a couple ways of building strong anchors where they don't otherwise exist. One is the mulitple picket system that's being discussed (such as in the Army manual). This shows a simple in-line 3 picket anchor. They can get more complicated for larger loads, such as a 1-2-3 (bowling pin) setup.

Pickets should be at least half buried and leaning back at a 30 degree angle. The tie-back rope should meet the pickets at 90 degrees.

The other option is to use an inadequate anchor point (a small tree) and use a pre-tensioned tie-back to secure it (opposite the line of pull) to a larger tree or other anchor, basically using the trees as pickets. And, in the same way, if there isn't a good backup anchor in-line, then use two backup anchors such that the angle formed between the three anchor points opposes the line of pull.

Though this picture doesn't show it, I use a prusik on the haul line coming out of the improvised MA system (the biners) to hold tension on all the strands.

- Robert

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Robert,
Knowing you have an eye for detail, I thought I bring up a study presented in the ISA JOA a few months back about staking trees.
They tested stakes driven in at different angles and found that straight up and down was the strongest.
In light of this, I wonder if the picket fence anchor, your link showed, could be improved by changing the angle on the posts.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i don't think you are gonna beat the tied from high to low picket series because the ground is the pivot, the higher you go on the previous or first picket with bracing, the more you fortify leveraged restriction against pull to the other side by load pulls. Brace line goes low on the next succesive picket to anchor the previous leveraged restraint from the strongest position on the secondary stake. Clean simplicity IMLHO; especially with 'windlass' like tightening to fortify with more strength of resistance, locked/staked to ground to prevent unwinding.

The load pull woud best come from low, close to ground pivot on the first stake; the higher the pull back on first stake to secondary staking etc.; the more leveraged the fortification against horizontal pulls in the opposite direction

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder
i don't think you are gonna beat the tied from high to low picket series because the ground is the pivot...

I'm only suggesting changing the angle of the poles, not the ropes.

 

[RescueMan]

I'm only suggesting changing the angle of the poles, not the ropes.

Mike,
I'd like to understand how the ISA JOA came to that conclusion, but this angle-back method is the standard in every application that I'm aware of (including the US Army), and it is consistent with testing done on snow pickets by mountain rescue teams.

There are two problems with the diagram you attached:

1 - with the slightly up and right pull of the load, if the stakes crush the soil and rotate at all rightward, then their resistance becomes more a shear (withdrawal) force and less a compression force.

2 - if the stakes are vertical, then for the back-ties to attach high to low requires they be at some angle other than 90 degrees, which offers less resistance to overturning (only the 90 deg vector component counts).

The only problem I'm aware of in angling pickets is that, if they are too shallow and too angled they will tend to lift the soil rather than compress it.

If you've done any amount of camping, this becomes obvious. Tent stakes have to be angled backwards to prevent withdrawal, but if they're angled too much they just lift out with a divot of dirt.

- Robert

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Maybe the differeance is the differane between a long term and temporary system, and the use of that system.

http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=107&volume=29&issue=5&Type=1

but you need to be an ISA memeber to read it.

Weboard passwords will not work on the main site. So i cannot copy the abstract to this page just yet.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I just curious...

How do you get the stakes outta the ground after you've pounded them in?