Winches & head leaners

[pdqdl]

I was just wondering if any fellows had comments or special concerns about using winches to pull over head leaners.

I had a healthy 50-60' ash tree one time, leaning heavily over a house. If dropped from the ground, there was little tolerance for any rotation or twisting during the fall. Rather than rope it out, we rigged our wrecker winch line 15' up in the tree to a doubled up section of bull rope on a pulley attached to the tree. I made a fairly shallow wedge, then loaded the bull line heavily with the winch so that it was stretched quite a bit. When I began the backcut, I watched it carefully until I could see it beginning to pull the right direction. Then I told the winch operator to pull the whole tree over, while I continued to make the backcut. (No! I was NOT going to complete cutting the hinge until it was well on the way down, and yes, my back cut was considerably lower than the wedge cut.)

The idea was that the stretch of the rope and the low attachment would compensate for the slowness of the winch, and assure a speedy fall in the direction we needed. Not enough room to use a truck to "drive it out". It worked quite well.

Pulling trees with winches is not somethine we do a lot of, and I would like to learn more. Does anyone have any similar experiences or special uses to share ?

 

[treemandan]

Anything that enables you to have pulling power is good as well as knowing how to harness the power. you can work wonders.
What you described is not a ideal setup if I understood that correctly. The rope seems low and doesn't the pulley get mashed by the tree falling on it?
Lets here more about this wrecker please. sounds interesting.

 

[kennertree]

Loading the tree heavily like you described on an ash tree has the potential for a mean barber chair. Its always best to get higher for more leverage. Pulling a tree over slow is good. When pulling over a leaner I usually make my notch, tension the rope just a little, make the back cut and leave just enough to hold it. Start pulling the tree slow and steady and it goes right over.

 

[jomoco]

Having winched over a fair share of trees, both big and very big, I've found that conifers are very good at holding their hinges and bending further before snapping than hardwoods are.

Hardwoods like ash and oak are fairly predictable, but far less obliging than conifers by a considerable degree. Hardwoods like euc can be downright treacherous in terms bending very little before snapping, or holding any significant amount of lateral holding ability at the felling hinge.

I tend to prefer pulling 180% off the lean on all hardwoods in light of these common hardwood characteristics whenever possible.


Any treemans worst nightmare is tying an unanchored winchtruck off to a huge tree and having the tree win the tug of war and slingshotting your winchtruck into the next canyon over.

I use a 12K Warner winch on a Toy 4X4 tooltruck mounted underneath the rear where the spare tire used to be.

Many times Ive been tied off to an anchor tree by my front bumper with a compound pulley winch line lifting the whole rear end of my truck off the ground while pulling big eucs 180% off their lean.

I've been waiting for some intrepid treeman to tie off a rolled junk 4X4 truck to a giant conifer with a taught bull line, and purposefully drop the tree away from the truck, and catch it all on video.

I wonder how far the tree could throw the truck? Kind of a lumberjack trebuchet slingshot!

jomoco

 

[Husky137]

Why was the back cut considerably lower than your notch?

 

[treemandan]

Having winched over a fair share of trees, both big and very big, I've found that conifers are very good at holding their hinges and bending further before snapping than hardwoods are.

Hardwoods like ash and oak are fairly predictable, but far less obliging than conifers by a considerable degree. Hardwoods like euc can be downright treacherous in terms bending very little before snapping, or holding any significant amount of lateral holding ability at the felling hinge.

I tend to prefer pulling 180% off the lean on all hardwoods in light of these common hardwood characteristics whenever possible.


Any treemans worst nightmare is tying an unanchored winchtruck off to a huge tree and having the tree win the tug of war and slingshotting your winchtruck into the next canyon over.

I use a 12K Warner winch on a Toy 4X4 tooltruck mounted underneath the rear where the spare tire used to be.

Many times Ive been tied off to an anchor tree by my front bumper with a compound pulley winch line lifting the whole rear end of my truck off the ground while pulling big eucs 180% off their lean.

I've been waiting for some intrepid treeman to tie off a rolled junk 4X4 truck to a giant conifer with a taught bull line, and purposefully drop the tree away from the truck, and catch it all on video.

I wonder how far the tree could throw the truck? Kind of a lumberjack trebuchet slingshot!

jomoco

My winch was on the front of my yota and after the same treatment you gave yours I found that when I swapped the winch to the f150 that the frame on the truck was FINE.
People always wonder why there was such a big winch on a little truck. Awesome little tree trucks. I'd put mine under a bay window for a smaller pull or chain it to the tree truck. You don't want to sit in there while you hold the button.

 

[ropensaddle]

I was just wondering if any fellows had comments or special concerns about using winches to pull over head leaners.

I had a healthy 50-60' ash tree one time, leaning heavily over a house. If dropped from the ground, there was little tolerance for any rotation or twisting during the fall. Rather than rope it out, we rigged our wrecker winch line 15' up in the tree to a doubled up section of bull rope on a pulley attached to the tree. I made a fairly shallow wedge, then loaded the bull line heavily with the winch so that it was stretched quite a bit. When I began the backcut, I watched it carefully until I could see it beginning to pull the right direction. Then I told the winch operator to pull the whole tree over, while I continued to make the backcut. (No! I was NOT going to complete cutting the hinge until it was well on the way down, and yes, my back cut was considerably lower than the wedge cut.)

The idea was that the stretch of the rope and the low attachment would compensate for the slowness of the winch, and assure a speedy fall in the direction we needed. Not enough room to use a truck to "drive it out". It worked quite well.

Pulling trees with winches is not somethine we do a lot of, and I would like to learn more. Does anyone have any similar experiences or special uses to share ?

I use one all the time, with more control than any other method.
I however prefer to hook up with the cable instead of rope! At 15 to
twenty feet I pull after notching until I see the top shake a little and then
kill truck winch in gear. I usually don't have to get anymore pull but if its needed, just start the truck and away she goes! I love my pto winch,
it is two speed so if I need serious pull low and if I need a faster pull
high and then I can gas it for even faster yarding! If I hook to anything
its with the cable or a hight test 3/8 chain! My winch is a twenty ton on my cdl bucket truck no tree here is going to throw it into a canyon :hmm3grin2orange:

I forgot on leaner's sometimes, I will set a bull rope and
have groundman take slack as it starts to come over
just in case something goes astray my winch has a place
for a rope usually used to lift transformers it works like
a bullard until you pull tight then it pulls! It will take up slack
and have wraps at the same time in the event cable broke!
It can also be used with the cable spool in neutral just the
rope to lift limb, pull trees etc.

 

[joesawer]

Why was the back cut considerably lower than your notch?

A low back cut in theory prevents the butt from being pulled off the stump by the pull line being below the center of gravity. Kind of a reversed stump shot. But it makes the tree much harder to get started and is harder to move forward all the way until the hinge starts to break.
I agree with Jomoco that 180 degrees from lean is easier and much less likely to pull your hinge out sideways.
I prefer higher pull points when available. Imo fast pull speed is mostly over rated I don't mind a steady slow pull moving the weight of the tree where I want it to go 99% of the time, and I mostly cut dead trees. I can wait a few more seconds or even minutes if I have to. Even on long dead trees fast pull is mostly over rated and in my experience mostly a panic reaction.
When pulling a tree significantly against the lean make sure that you take the extra degrees of lean into account when you make your face cut. Also make sure that there is no dutchman, as the hinge will have to break once the kerf closes before the tree can continue to move forward.
If there is some side lean and you feel the need to cut a tapered hinge- don't cut the compression side all the way off. leave enough wood to hold up the weight so that the tree does not set down in the kerf and move even more to the side. For an example of this happening see Ekka's "Adjusted Gun" video.

Hey Jomoco, I think your 4X4 flip trick would be a lot more spectacular if you left some slack in the line and let the tree build some speed first. But I would not want to be the one to fall the tree. What if the truck did not gain enough elevation and clipped the faller about waist high.
I almost got a ride in a similar situation... I was pulling a 60" dbh fir tree that was leaning pretty heavy down hill to the side. The plan was to fall it parallel to the road that was about 30' above the tree. So we put a skidder in the road with a 3/4" swedged main line and hooked 5/8" choker around the tree about 15' above the cut. I put as much pull on the cable as I could and the faller cut his face and started his back cut.
The tree just started to move towards me when the hinge let go and the tree went down the mountain, taking the skidder with me in it. I had my hand on the winch lever pulling line in when the hinge let go with a pop. By the time I realized what had happend and pushed the lever forward to free spool the skidder was on one back wheel and seemed to be balanced for a moment before falling back on to its tires and bouncing like a basket ball.
If that winch had not released to free spool, it would have launched me off the side of the mountain.


Ropensaddle- That skidder weighs 38,000lbs, and that tree was man handleing it like it was a tonka toy.

 

[ropensaddle]

If I had a little winch, I would set my cable high but mine will do a great job at twenty feet. I am with sawyer on fast pull being over rated but;want the option if something starts going array. Like cottonwood or gum hinge wood not good, so; I want to bring it my way if needed! I have never had one bad incident using my winch, and had some serious trees! I can just uproot a twenty inch tree if I don't want to bring the grinder lol!

Joe I would say that was more the cutter than the winch point.
I would have stopped cutting if it did not move some with four
inches of meat left! My ideal spot on most trees is 20 feet.
Having said that; no situation is standard and if lean is crazy
I may just top it first.

 

[treemandan]

A low back cut in theory prevents the butt from being pulled off the stump by the pull line being below the center of gravity. Kind of a reversed stump shot. But it makes the tree much harder to get started and is harder to move forward all the way until the hinge starts to break.
I agree with Jomoco that 180 degrees from lean is easier and much less likely to pull your hinge out sideways.
I prefer higher pull points when available. Imo fast pull speed is mostly over rated I don't mind a steady slow pull moving the weight of the tree where I want it to go 99% of the time, and I mostly cut dead trees. I can wait a few more seconds or even minutes if I have to. Even on long dead trees fast pull is mostly over rated and in my experience mostly a panic reaction.
When pulling a tree significantly against the lean make sure that you take the extra degrees of lean into account when you make your face cut. Also make sure that there is no dutchman, as the hinge will have to break once the kerf closes before the tree can continue to move forward.
If there is some side lean and you feel the need to cut a tapered hinge- don't cut the compression side all the way off. leave enough wood to hold up the weight so that the tree does not set down in the kerf and move even more to the side. For an example of this happening see Ekka's "Adjusted Gun" video.

Hey Jomoco, I think your 4X4 flip trick would be a lot more spectacular if you left some slack in the line and let the tree build some speed first. But I would not want to be the one to fall the tree. What if the truck did not gain enough elevation and clipped the faller about waist high.
I almost got a ride in a similar situation... I was pulling a 60" dbh fir tree that was leaning pretty heavy down hill to the side. The plan was to fall it parallel to the road that was about 30' above the tree. So we put a skidder in the road with a 3/4" swedged main line and hooked 5/8" choker around the tree about 15' above the cut. I put as much pull on the cable as I could and the faller cut his face and started his back cut.
The tree just started to move towards me when the hinge let go and the tree went down the mountain, taking the skidder with me in it. I had my hand on the winch lever pulling line in when the hinge let go with a pop. By the time I realized what had happend and pushed the lever forward to free spool the skidder was on one back wheel and seemed to be balanced for a moment before falling back on to its tires and bouncing like a basket ball.
If that winch had not released to free spool, it would have launched me off the side of the mountain.


Ropensaddle- That skidder weighs 38,000lbs, and that tree was man handleing it like it was a tonka toy.

I like to let the fall linger and sometimes notch conifers down and when I delimb them the trunk raises to good bucking height because the hinge never broke.
Nice ride; what part of " don't not sit it that seat while you hold that button" don't you get? Just joking.

 

[tree MDS]

Fast pull works fine for me. I have a JD 4600 with Farmi JL351 (pretty sure) winch and optional dozer blade. I'ts got a 165 foot cable. Depending on the variables I either put a choker (18000+ rated 5/16) as high as I can reach, spike up a little if its leaning some, or put a 3/4 dbl braid 2/3 up if its a biggun. With the rope method I use a 1" clevis through a double bowline with same choker as above, then I personally tention the rig and lock it with the winches locking mechanism, then make my box, backcut to appropriate depth, step back with tractor cranked at high if its big, wave my arm down and the smackdown ensues. Yes with this method you DO have to know your different woods that is true. Works for me, I also use the chipper winch alot of times as the tractor is not on all jobs. I have yet to use either of the two pto winches on the bucket I recently purchased. I guess I'm winch spoiled.

 

[pdqdl]

Anything that enables you to have pulling power is good as well as knowing how to harness the power. you can work wonders.
What you described is not a ideal setup if I understood that correctly. The rope seems low and doesn't the pulley get mashed by the tree falling on it?
Lets here more about this wrecker please. sounds interesting.

The wrecker is just a big old international rollback. I use it to tote my tractors around, as well as rescue my junky trucks.

I rigged the rope rather low in the tree, so that I got the maximum amount of "spring" from the ropes I stretched out. It was not a case of "not enough winch" to pull the tree over, it's just that I feared that during the cut the tree might fall to the side, and I wanted it to be yanked rather quickly in the right direction. Winch was too slow, and not enough room to drive with the rope tied on. We dropped that sucker right to the rear of the truck.

Pulley was all steel, heavy duty, probably a 20 ton rating. I doubt if the tree could have hurt it.

 

[pdqdl]

Why was the back cut considerably lower than your notch?

The attachment point for the winch line was well below the center of gravity for the tree. If the hinge broke due to the side load, there was still 2/3rds of the trunk diameter left to "catch" against the stump. By placing the back cut low, I was leaving about 2/3rds the trunk diameter as a block against the stump to pull the tree in the right direction.

I don't think barber chair probably was much of an issue, because the cut was designed to load the back side of the trunk against the standing stump. The parts of the trunk that could have executed a barber chair were being held tightly by the winch line. Barber chair occurs when the trunk is flexed by gravity (or a HIGH winch attachment) AWAY from the stump it is being held by.

 

[pdqdl]

... my winch has a place
for a rope usually used to lift transformers it works like
a bullard until you pull tight then it pulls! It will take up slack
and have wraps at the same time in the event cable broke!
It can also be used with the cable spool in neutral just the
rope to lift limb, pull trees etc.

Nice tip ! ...but where do you get a cable winch with a capstan as well? Sounds very cool, but I have never seen one.

What brand, perhaps ?