Woodstove Efficiency Debate

[Whitespider]

Non of that BS will matter now with trump in office and his stance on the EPA. Trump has stated he will remove 80% of the regulations put in place.

I'm gonna' try not to get overly political here... but...
I don't believe reversing EPA wood stove regulations will be a huge priority for the Trump Administration.
And it wouldn't be as easy as just rescinding them... it would require costly and time consuming court litigation.
Those regulations came about via "Sue and Settle"... meaning the courts were involved, the new regulations were sort'a court ordered (by agreement of the law suit parties).
Now, I ain't sayin' the Trump Administration would be afraid of court litigation... but you have to pick and prioritize your battles, and I don't believe wood stoves will be at the top of the list.
If you don't know what "Sue and Settle" is all about, you can read about it here...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...ith-environmental-organizations/#54a0ddf13a4b


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[aokpops]

Not much to debate cut my usage almost in half chimney stays clean the biggest smoke trail never hits the ground . This year been cutting wood for smoke dragon stoves ,donate time to catch them up .

 

[anlrolfe]

Comparison between new/old technology

Data Laden

http://www.miljodirektoratet.no/old... factors wood stoves_Rapport_Final_64-65).pdf

Anything that helps me from having to cut and split as much wood and help environment is great, less ash is a bonus.
Growing up we had a King Circulator (similar to ashley) and we flat out threw cord wood into it. Now knowing that about 1/2 that heat went up the chimney about makes me sick to think about because I WAS THE LOG SPLITTER and I could have spent so much more time FISHING instead of splitting.

 

[Streblerm]

IMO dry wood and draft control are the keys to wood stove efficiency. I used to stuff my stove full of dry-ish wood and it would make a good amount of heat. It would eventually get up to a clean burning temperature and I could close the primary draft without a bunch of smoke.

I eventually built up two+ years of dry, split wood and I discovered I could get higher stove temperatures with much less wood if it was really dry. Furthermore I could do it in less time and with less primary draft and less smoke. The sooner you can cut down the primary air, the longer the fire seems to last. My over-coaling problem disappeared as well. I can put two good sized chunks of dry wood over some coals and get 6-8hrs of good heat and another 2-4 hrs of coals.

If you don't have good draft control then truly dry wood just goes POOF and your appliance gets over fired. Of course design has quite a bit to do with efficiency but without really, truly, dry wood you can't realize the efficiency of a modern stove.

 

[anlrolfe]

Agree with all said concerning well aged and dried wood, air flow in loading as well as combustion air, this is the key to "secondary combustion" stoves which allow a continuous air flow compared to old "air tight" stoves which make better smokers than heaters.

I'm trying to find an old JOTUL document circa 1970's that shows some good but simple graphs for BTU output, relative combustion %eff and burn time for their pre-EPA models. IIRC, most of their better models ran optimal efficiency(~75%) near mid-damper 55-75% heat output with efficiency falling off rapidly below and tapering off above. I think I've got the PDF on my computer at work and will post later if I can find the darn thing.

 

[OnTheRoad]

Make no doubt about it an EPA stove requires fiddling.

Stove/wood furnace manufacturers design features that are intended to make the burn cycles easier, but I've never seen a 100% load it and forget it EPA stove. If you want something you load up, set the air/damper according to the stove temp you want, and want fine ash coals at the end, then you do NOT want an EPA stove.

The efficiency of getting every last btu out of a log comes at a cost of fiddling and heat cycles, if you don't embrace that concept you and your EPA stove won't get along.

Jason


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You've posted a lot of good information in this thread as have others. There are both good and bad aspects to every style of wood burner. Currently, I have an Ashley smoke dragon insert and a Tundra installed tied into the existing ductwork.

With the factory Tundra controller (or lack thereof), you either burn more wood than necessary, have a lousy burn, or baby the furnace for the first 45 minutes (cold start only). It's a frustrating experience.

To make it less demanding, I added 3 digital controllers and a timer. Now it's as simple as throwing in wood, setting the timer, and walking away.

Keeping the firebox hot is key, but last night I let it go ice cold because the house was too warm and I was too tired after taking down a lightning struck large Hedge tree and bucking and hauling it home. Bored and nursing sore muscles throughout my body, I watched the stove this morning.

At 9.35 it was loaded with 9 small splits and 1 larger piece, all very dry Honey Locust. One lint-and-wax-eggcrate fire starter on the bottom, some kindling, and one strike of a lighter, and the timer set for 10 minutes. Damper opens, fire gets started, around 5 minutes in supply temp up to 103, fan comes on high. Supply temp drops to 95, fan switches to low. Supply temp drops to 88, damper control calls for heat (timer still running, so damper already open) supply hits 86, fan shuts off (3 minute anti short cycle delay kicks in). Another 3 minutes, supply is 110, fan on high, supply drops, fan goes to low, etc. This cycles a few times and after 30 minutes or so, the damper is closed, fan is on low, and output temp is a steady 91-93 degrees with an occasional spike to 94, triggering high fan speed. It will run this way for several hours as the fuel stack is still ~85% it's original volume. As the fuel load burns off the damper cycles open and closed and eventually comes open and burns off the coals. Reloading when there is a 1-2 gallon coal bed, the fire will light off immediately. Fill the box, set the timer for 10 minutes and do whatever you had planned for the day. It will be running on secondaries after one or two timer cycles~15 minutes after reloading.

Adding fuel during the burn cycle is as simple as throwing in a few sticks. Temp drops, damper opens briefly, secondary burn goes WILD and away it goes. Supply temp will climb a few degrees, kicking the fan to high for quite a while.

I used industrial grade Johnson Control boxes and the total cost was around $250 including wiring, a larger transformer, and housing boxes for the controllers. The improved control system saved my brand new Tundra from the scrap pile.

 

[stihly dan]

It really is impossible to calculate. There are to many variables. Every stove is different, same with chimney, quality/dryness of fuel, heat load, house, and operator. One would think burning wood is real basic, but if you think about it, it is the most complex of any of the fuels. Its not just fire in a box. We cannot control the heat like fossil fuels, once lit it is always giving off some sort of heat, the heat output cannot be the same every minute. We have to be aware of current temps, future temps (next 8 hrs or so) how much heat our particular unit gives off at X load, the temp of the house at loading, and how long we are loading for.. Then we need to expect not to maintain X temp the entire time. Some units do this easier than others, some of us are better at the (feel) of our units than others. I personally had an EPA stove that just did not work for me. In that case draft was just to much, also coals would build up because the stove in the basement had to run to hard. That was a very large stove too. I bet if that stove was on the 1st floor it would have worked excellent though. I replaced that with an EPA furnace and this works awesome for me, night and day difference. My new unit is a true set it and forget it, but I still have to load with all the above in mind. Also I don't get the same look/feel of a stove, so again it goes back to priorities. This debate will always be there until they invent a clean burning, self modulating, self lighting, self loading unit.

 

[Chris-PA]

I do that when I want a fast and hot fire, like in the spring and fall. The only difference is since all of my burners have long and narrow fireboxes I have to stack the wood in more of an X shape rather than full on perpendicular. It does work great for a nice hot fire when you don't need 8-10 hours of intense heat.

Our US Stoves Magnolia throttles both primary and secondary air (which appears to be unusual), so I can keep it from going nuts when stacked that way. Plus I do not leave huge gaps between the logs, just enough to allow gas to move through.

 

[midwest_170]

I'm gonna' try not to get overly political here... but...
I don't believe reversing EPA wood stove regulations will be a huge priority for the Trump Administration.
And it wouldn't be as easy as just rescinding them... it would require costly and time consuming court litigation.
Those regulations came about via "Sue and Settle"... meaning the courts were involved, the new regulations were sort'a court ordered (by agreement of the law suit parties).
Now, I ain't sayin' the Trump Administration would be afraid of court litigation... but you have to pick and prioritize your battles, and I don't believe wood stoves will be at the top of the list.
If you don't know what "Sue and Settle" is all about, you can read about it here...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...ith-environmental-organizations/#54a0ddf13a4b


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There's already a bill that has passed the house to remove the regulations.

 

[Hinerman]

There's already a bill that has passed the house to remove the regulations.

Source please?

 

[midwest_170]

Source please?

https://jasonsmith.house.gov/media-...ssman-smith-s-protection-for-wood-stove-users

http://votesmart.org/public-stateme...-of-radical-environmental-groups#.WG0Xo00iytI

 

[Del_]

There's already a bill that has passed the house to remove the regulations.

That bill does not remove the regulations that are in place but it does aim to stop new regulations.

I didn't understand this sentence:

"The EPA has decided that 12 million wood-burning stoves in 2.4 million households across America need to be regulated because of Washington-driven bureaucrat emissions standards."

12 million stoves in 2.4 million households is almost 5 stoves per household. That is a bunch!

 

[midwest_170]

When it says eliminate new regulations on wood stoves I took that as they are removing the regulations that were created by the epa.

I really think trump is going to basically dismantle the epa. It was one of the key items he ran on was removing regulations. His hire for head of epa embraces this, not to often do you put someone in charge of something he despises.

As for the stove regulations, the current laws don't effect me because I'm exempt but I would still like to see others have the same choices I do.

 

[Del_]

When it says eliminate new regulations on wood stoves I took that as they are removing the regulations that were created by the epa.

I really think trump is going to basically dismantle the epa. It was one of the key items he ran on was removing regulations. His hire for head of epa embraces this, not to often do you put someone in charge of something he despises.

As for the stove regulations, the current laws don't effect me because I'm exempt but I would still like to see others have the same choices I do.

If by dismantling the EPA you mean like no more automobile emission standards I don't believe you'll see it happen.

 

[sledge&wedge]

I just wanted to offer everyone a round of applause for making it to page 5 without derailing for more than a post or two... I think this is the longest I've seen it carry on in my time here. Well done, gentlemen.

 

[midwest_170]

If by dismantling the EPA you mean like no more automobile emission standards I don't believe you'll see it happen.

I agree it may not go that far but I'm certain that many regulations that are hurting small businesses will be removed. I think the EPA will shrink because it is the 1st place trump said spending will be cut. Coal based companies stocks have soared since the election, wonder why?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-picks-top-climate-skeptic-to-lead-epa-transition/

 

[Whitespider]

There's already a bill that has passed the house to remove the regulations.

That bill does not remove the regulations that are in place but it does aim to stop new regulations.

Yes... that bill (or the amendment add by Smith) repealed the new EPA regulations on wood stoves.
However, the bill (the North American Energy Security and Infrastructure Act of 2015) died in the Senate because Obama had promised to veto it.
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[Deleted member 116684]

Well here's my two bits. My dad's old stove was a smoke dragon that warmed the house but sent us into other rooms than it was in so we didn't get heat stroke. But it let a lot of smoke go. And that stinks for all the neighbors. Now it burned consistent. Set the draft down and go to bed. But it used too much wood. My epa stove burns clean and on less, but I hated the cycles. And the coals building up. Seems the secondaries would just burn too hot and my strong draft would cause the stove to burn hot at first. When all the gasses were burned from the strong draft caused by the secondaries I just had a lot of caols and the primary air wasn't strong enough to take the down quickly. Then the stove got cold. Hot to cold and hard to keep it just right. So I've kinda got an in between now with a mod I made to keep a strong pimary on the coals while giving me more control of the secondaries. I don't turn the draft down as much as I used to so the coals have a steady feed of air. With the secondaries under more control I don't have to worry so much about overfiring. So anyways it helped level out the hot to cold thing. And I have less heat rushing up the chimney so it stay in the stove a bit more and I assume it gets transferrd through the stove better. The glass used to get dirty but now it stay clean. I also pile my coal in the front middle so the wood burns from the front center back and out. I find a key to a consistent burn is in how I structure the fire. I can minimize SOME of the inconvenience of the cyclic burn with this method, which you probably all know already but I just learned by trial and error. Any way, I hope this makes sense. There's no way I'm gonna go back and read all the previous posts on this one so if I'm being repeatitive forgive me. Now its snowing here in sc and that's a rare event. I'm gonna go watch it and sit by my stove.

 

[tla100]

My stove has secondaries, no cat. One damper/air inlet, I leave 75% open. I do have coals in bottom if I am feeding it when in single digits. I leave door open from half hour to an hour and it burns down well. No big deal. In the morning I only have enough coals to get a fire going in no time.

What size of holes are in you guys grates? How tall? I am thinking level with my door, so about 2" tall. I would like to build a grate, have a welder, just need to pick up some welded wire/expanded steel. I do not have an ash cleanout, so would have to pull grate when need to clean ash. Probably a couple times a weak, roughly.

 

[Del_]

My stove has secondaries, no cat. One damper/air inlet, I leave 75% open. I do have coals in bottom if I am feeding it when in single digits. I leave door open from half hour to an hour and it burns down well. No big deal. In the morning I only have enough coals to get a fire going in no time.

What size of holes are in you guys grates? How tall? I am thinking level with my door, so about 2" tall. I would like to build a grate, have a welder, just need to pick up some welded wire/expanded steel. I do not have an ash cleanout, so would have to pull grate when need to clean ash. Probably a couple times a weak, roughly.

In the Jotul wood stoves the grates are in a section of the floor of the firebox. That is the only way I'd consider a grate.