Working hurricanes

[jefflovstrom]

My point is that so will the collar cut. In severe storm damage you will often end up with several of these massive wounds in the trunk.



Quite a few actually, we have a cyclicality of high wind events here that allow the weakening of the stem and enough top growth to get a good height of pressure. My reasoning for not seeing more of it is that a reasonable person can see that decay in the hot-spot is grounds to call a tree-cutter in to remove it.

Another study, that I remember from a seminar, but cannot cite directly; noted that a large percentage of this wounding patter also weather to form a "case hardened" shell on the face of the cut, with wet wood decay on the inside. This was a muni' UF oriented talk that recommended an automatic removal SOP after storms when there was a certain trunk:stem diameter (should I put RATIO in there, or does the colon suffice?). This was for the sole purpose of getting the removal onto the emergency budget, since statistically these trees would need removal in around 10 years.


My view is that with nodal pruning as part of a management program one can trim the failed end back to another clump of sprouts. Quite often the supposed failure is only near the end of the cut limb; with the compartmentalization succeeding just a short distance back.

Even on silver maples I have only had to make a few cuts to get back to "good wood". Cottonwood is another story, going back to the species part of the discussion. Though the latter seems to discolor farther back, I'm not sure if the decay is all that problematic. I just had to err on the side of seeing "good wood".



Well I've been working trees for over two decades, and started reading: Shigo, Pirrone, Harris et. al. over fifteen years ago. So I do think that my opinions well informed.

I do think that Al was, and still is, very important to the industry and science. It is just that people take what he wrote and head it dogmatically. Try talking to plant science researchers and tell them that minerals and elements are not nutrients. It does not go over well.

So, are you saying that if Al lived longer, he would differ his opinion to suit yours, or are you speaking for him from the grave.
Jeff

 

[jefflovstrom]

My cousins play, not me, Two goalies in Sweden and one traded to Canada.
Jeff

 

[Ekka]

Guy, you should move to UK where round-overs and reductions are common practice, I'm sure they'd love to node you.

 

[treevet]

:agree2: That's why I sought out his first book and reviewed it for the journal in 2002. The attached was peer-reviewed, so i pretended to sound informed on what it was about. Guess they were all fooled, huh?

Now more than ever, our strategy must be to minimize the size of the infection courts that we leave

Let me know when you WRITE a text (scientifically researched and not full of conjecture and assumptions like your posts) not review other's works, then I will be really impressed. Maybe if you were out in the real world (trees) and not behind the puter all the time you would be more informed.

From many casual observations the huge stub is a very large infection court as it is failing and a magnet for decay causing orgs. The parent cut has not waned in vitality yet and is the obvious choice in most circumstances. As for cracks .... a round cylinder such as your stub will crack (ring shakes and esp.radial cracks) more easily than a large side positioned cut on the large main stem (probably not much larger than the 12 inch honkers you leave) as there is more mass to displace (side movement) IMO. I have read extensively and give my opinions on a compilation of what I have read and my own observations (just like you do) and that could be called "hearsay" as I have heard you refer to your own opinions before.

Your art. on Schwarze's first book I read a long time ago was quite good albeit maybe much too condensed. When you gonna finish the second one?

Where is your research on suberin decreasing in woundwood?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

treating the injured trees with Cambistat to slow their growth and invigorate their root systems.

I'm kinda concerned with inhibition of calus growth, Though I agree that the rapid onset of succulent material is not beneficial. I would maybe advocate the use of paclobutrazol in following years, not after initial wounding.

Quite often water is the biggest limiting factor, as with any stressing event.

About the only wall that uses any resources is the new growth.

Yes, more resources go to growth, but the plant needs to expend energy in the chemical conversions involved in compartmentalization. Species has a lot to do with this, because the r/K selection traits will "tell" it weather to grow fast and reproduce often, or live long and fight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

I would follow my above rules with an bur oak or sugar male, where with any Populus or Betula I would probably recommend replacement as soon as possible. I've read that some of the oldest trees in norther Europe are in the white oak sub genus that have been broken up by storms.

So, are you saying that if Al lived longer, he would differ his opinion to suit yours, or are you speaking for him from the grave.

neither, I would like to think that he would agree with my interpretation of his, and others, work. Since I have read many of his later articles several time; he might say I know nothing. I respect his place in the industry and science, but disagree with the way he went about some things. He had a "my way only" sense in many writings, saying that those who disagree know nothing: pruning of girdling roots is one i remember.

Happy Memorial Day, fellow ex Marine.

OooooRAH! and God bless.

 

[treeseer]

"Your art. on Schwarze's first book I read a long time ago was quite good albeit maybe much too condensed."

You're right; there is a lot more in that book that applies to arboriculture. Your turn!
o and I was *told* to whack it from 800 to 500 words. Kinda like reducing a baldcypress.

Then in print, it fit on the top half of a page. The bottom half was......blank. :censored::censored: Now there is a new editor, who is very good.

"When you gonna finish the second one?"

Your turn smart guy What did that $200 book do to make you a better arborist?


"Where is your research on suberin decreasing in woundwood?"

You're not the first to ask. You get the same answer--where's yours? Read again; I never made a claim that required a citation. Just common sense. Logic is science--systematic analysis.

re "scientifically" researched, what do you mean? They all have a bibliography, and all the ISA works are closely reviewed. No texts--i like books but there are already good books out there. re testing in formal experiments, you write the grant.

 

[ddhlakebound]

woohoo!!!

I just got A New Tree Biology off ebay for under $35 shipped. Yay!!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

woohoo!!!

I just got A New Tree Biology off ebay for under $35 shipped. Yay!!

look for an old edition of Harris' "Arboriculture"

 

[ddhlakebound]

look for an old edition of Harris' "Arboriculture"

Cool, found that on at alibris for $8 shipped. First edition hardback in good shape, and on the way.

Now I've gotta read 1100 plus pages.....Time to put the fiction down for a while.

 

[stihlhere]

so when i have a customer insist on having a limb remover to the trunk larger than 12inch (mainly live oak or water oak) what should be the procedure. also on live oak when a limb becomes to heavy and tears out of trunk what then. I know a lot may depend on damage but feel free to give me scenario.
one more thing i have no formal training on pruning and do mainly removals but i want learn can you suggest some books. Also the order that i should read them. thanks

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

so when i have a customer insist on having a limb remover to the trunk larger than 12inch (mainly live oak or water oak) what should be the procedure.

When in this situation I try to talk people into a reduction, depending on species, condition, location, reason for the requested work...[/QUOTE]

one more thing i have no formal training on pruning and do mainly removals but i want learn can you suggest some books. Also the order that i should read them. thanks

Do you have the "Tree Climbers Companion: by Jepson?

Starting with Modern Arboriculture is good, Shigo write for the working man while some others are more academic.

Is there a good public library you can go to to look at some old books? That is what i did first, Milwaukee Public Library had a number of old Shigo books in the reference, and a Pirrone that i could take home.

Shigo's "Photo Guide" is a good primer for understanding how wounding effect trees.

 

[Ekka]

A honking huge stub and paint the end apparently ... and if anyone asks always say ... "it's a node, a node I'm telling you, cant you see it!"

I've been around these forums for some 5 years now, and this crap just keeps spinning around and around, the main perp hoping it snowballs but it just melts down, as it should. :deadhorse:

 

[treevet]

woohoo!!!

I just got A New Tree Biology off ebay for under $35 shipped. Yay!!

If it is missing an addendum it is a first copy. He sent out the addendums after distribution with a nice personal note and a "thank you for the first copy" written on the pamphlet that I received in the mail later. (along with "touch trees" that he wrote on every book he was asked to sign.

 

[treevet]

I've been around these forums for some 5 years now, and this crap just keeps spinning around and around, the main perp hoping it snowballs but it just melts down, as it should. :deadhorse:

You got that right....it is ok to spike trees, leave huge stubs, top trees, leave deadwood in trees, flush cuts, tree paint.....etc, etc, etc, :fart: these guys emitting old fallacies, that have been disproven....just stinks.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

:deadhorse:

Yeah, i know, you just want to lop everything back to the trunk and show everyone how good your collar cuts are. "Ey mate, ain't no branches left, but every cut is textbook!"

 

[ddhlakebound]

Hey Mr. Mapleman,

I found this awesome saw system that eliminates lots of time and effort. We got hit with ice storm damage big time in New England this winter, do a search for "extended reach chainsaw", this may help all of you!

ChainsawGuy

There are a few other things this product eliminates too.....

It eliminates good quality cuts, placed properly so the tree can seal the wound.

It eliminates a saftey margin, becuase when your trying to use a 14 pound saw 30' up, most times you'll be standing pretty close to "under" whatever you're cutting.

In many cutters hands it eliminates all the branches that can be reached, wether they need it or not.

Plus it allows you to be dependant on electric power to work, stringing cords is a great timesaver, and trying to communicate over a generator is always great.

You can get near the same performance from $120 worth of jamison poles and a $50 saw head, and never need electricity, plus the foam filled poles are di-electically rated, and can be used for multiple purposes.

 

[ddhlakebound]

Hey ddhlakebound,

You are sadly mistaken. The saw head weighs less than 6 pounds, the whole system set up and extended weighs <14lbs. Most of my jobs are at the HO level, and I'm set up and running in less than 10 minutes without a generator, I have that for work well beyond any HO current, such as when I'm pruning trees in an orchard. Did you check out the videos on the site? I guess old ways of doing things die hard. Have a day!

Chainsaw Guy

Yeah, I watched the videos....they're a joke.

Video 1: One 3" cut on the lowest limb of the tree, leaving a stub.

Vidoe 2: A bunch of pointless 1-2" cuts on a pine that serve no obvious purpose. The generator noise is almost as pleasant to listen to as I imagined.

Video 3: More of the same, same tree. I hope this one is a removal, cause it's hacked up now.

Video 4: A painfully slow cut on a 5-6" limb, lacking control for anything but a free fall.

Video 5: An 80 lb chunk falls into the roadway with no control whatsoever from 30' up. The cutter had to rest the pole on a stub to acheive side reach. Those poles don't bend or break do they?

Video 6: That one's funny. I've seen beavers chew through trees faster. Also almost broke the system by dropping the section on the poles above the stob support point, cause it's too heavy to use at an angle without support.

Video 7: Another slow cut, then the operator standing back wondering "how in the hell do I finish this removal with this POS I'm using?"

Video 8: Back to hacking on the original pine tree. More useless cuts that could have been made with a pole pruner costing much less and using no power.

Video 9: Duplicate of video 1....wasn't any better the second time.

Video 10: More small limb removal on the oak. I'd really like to see a close up of the finished cuts, to view the tearouts and see if the bottom of the branch collar is cracked from the tearing cut.

Totally unimpressive, and you failed to address the issue of damaged branch unions from extended reach cutting, saftey of cutting directly below your target (or risking the tool by resting it on another limb).

It's a tool made for making money (for the manufacturers), not taking care of trees.

 

[ddhlakebound]

A honking huge stub and paint the end apparently ... and if anyone asks always say ... "it's a node, a node I'm telling you, cant you see it!"

I've been around these forums for some 5 years now, and this crap just keeps spinning around and around, the main perp hoping it snowballs but it just melts down, as it should. :deadhorse:

Back to the topic, sorry for the derail.

As I understand the point of node trimming, it's not to make crown reductions or topping ok, it's in response to damage from nature.

Cleaning the break to the first good node allows the tree to keep more dynamic material, and recover more quickly.

Yes, it looks horrible for the first couple years, but long term it allows the tree to restore a much more natural canopy in far less time, with less rescources expended. It's not all about how the tree looks today.

Given the opportunity, I'd rather attempt to confine the decay to the limb than to invite it into the main stem with a large collar cut.

Nobody is going to be able to see the node from the ground, but it IS there, and will provide a better connected branch than internodal trimming that promotes even more aventitious sprouting.

 

[Ekka]

Well, I took a pic of 10' of branch ... didn't see you pick the node! :monkey:

Some Guy reckons get your magnifying glass out and look for nodes, might as well look for cows jumping over the moon too then ... I'm sure from a distance they look tiny too! :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[treevet]

it allows the tree to restore a much more natural canopy in far less time, with less rescources expended. It's not all about how the tree looks today.

Given the opportunity, I'd rather attempt to confine the decay to the limb than to invite it into the main stem with a large collar cut.

I see you have joined the "imagine your own outcome scenario, regardless of established scientific research to the contrary club". You are right ....it is not all about how the tree looks today, it is about decay decay decay........

"You'd rather attempt to confine the decay to the limb (by leaving a huge stub)"......dream on. Why don't we just leave stubs on all pruning cuts, live or dead in your fairy tale world. Why???? research has proven decay will enter the stem.

Trees deserve BETTER care than Mother Nature gives them in the woods. Why.....??? Because of TARGETS. Why else?? Because we have brought trees out of their natural environment and caused them to evolve into a different structure (decurrent) that poses a threat to these targets, esp. when decay is involved.