Young, Dumb & want the Bling!!

[TreeBot]

Not if they are legals.

I'm a NorthEuro mutt, Sanborn's got here in 1626 fleeing religious persecution in England, Bell was indentured then soldiered in the revolution, Larson and Jones came in the late 1800's. All of them needed work, those who their children married came over needing work.

When unchecked labor imports have reduced your children to as poor a state as your ancestors were when they came here, where will they go this time? Antarctica?

If they are legal and want to work and follow direction, then that is the American Way.

Good for them for making it here, and I have nothing against them personally, especially if they are legal. But we can not be the sponge that mops up excess labor capacity in a world with 6+ billion people. Not without destroying ourselves anyway.

Winnowing the chaff of these slacker kids just to find a few that will make a decent laborer is for the birds.

Going to the trouble of finding good workers should be part of doing business. But the native laborer has been cut out of the loop, and so you don't have to. If I could get MS200's sent for $99 each direct from Germany I wouldn't have to bother paying $600-700, but that is not the way it is, so I pay the cost like everyone else and factor it in. Looking for native workers would be the same if we did not have massive wage deflation caused by imported labor. And maybe then some of these kids would feel the motivation to work if they had a chance to make more than a small fraction of what their fathers and grandfathers did.

I have a buddy named Pena, who owns Tree Pro's. Second generation American, hard worker and honest business man. I've no problem working for him.

Neither would I, since he is an AMERICAN.

What is the difference between discrimination of a white man or a brown man?

Who is discriminating against the brown man? In fact black and brown and Indian Americans are hurt by massive labor influxes more than white workers. The whole idea of importing all this cheap labor got started when slavery ended as a way to get around paying real wages to former slaves.

Yes I ma truly being prejudiced against white kids, because I've seen too many of slackers. I'm favorably prejudiced towards Hispanics because I've seen so many of them that want to do a good job for good pay.

Pay that is good in Mexico. In this world there are millions of people so desperate that half a bowl of dirty rice with some rat guts in it for protein would be a vast improvement, and therefore "good pay". Do we really want to force the working people of this country to compete on par with them?

This iss my experiance, if you are a hardworking 20ish white boy finding it hard to get a job, blame your peers for effing it up for you.

I subbed for one of my sort-of competitors* one time and insisted on bringing my own guy (he uses illegals exclusively). The job went long and at about 5:30pm I was ready to pack it in, and so was my help. The contractor we were working for asked if we would stay and finish and I said no, we were done, we had worked the "day" I had told him we would, all the climbing was done and there was just a few hours of ground work. Then he asked my helper if he would stay and he said no, he had left the house before 7am that day and he was ready to get back home, let out his dog and have some dinner. Then the contractor pulls me aside and says that next time to just come by myself because he wasn't going to pay my helper $100 day if he wouldn't even finish the job. This man had actually just lost his job of 15 years to immigrant labor and now he was willing to get out and grunt brush out of a backyard all day in the heat for peanuts, but that was not good enough. Imagine how that feels.

*actually more a competitor of PDQDL than me

 

[pdqdl]

It depends on whether the sub has a policy (many carry W/C with a self exclusion, some call it a "fake comp") or if the primaries policy requires that the sub carries it.

For those who require that I go onto their W/C records, I bill a portion at industry standard wage, and the rest as equipment rental.

Yep. That works.

I hire snow removal subs; they typically have no Worker's comp coverage, which is not required by Missouri for businesses with too few employees. My Worker's comp insurance company AUDITS at the end of their business year, and they bill me 1/3 of the snow pay as wages. Or would, if I wasn't beating them at that game.

Each sub is an employee, gets a nominal wage, and the rest is equipment rental with a 1099 at the end of the year.

 

[treemandan]

Thanks for the advice, truly from professional profesionals.

At any rate, I was never on this end until now. I was always the sub. The fake Wc came up but that wasn never a problem either if you know what I mean.
I was never sure what it was even though I had it explained to me over and over again. It just didn't make sense. If I needed comp to go I didn't go... or nobody ever said anything about me being there.
Here is something you all might like:
I was doing sub work and my policy was about to end. I was hammering it out at this place full of cokey's , convicts and border jumpers and knew I wasn't going to be sticking around much longer.
I had some avenues so I was thinking about whether or not to renew my ins. It turns out that one day in 5 degree weather I accidentaly let the leash out on my 20 to far and it sent one that ripped out this lady's power line. I called my ins co laughing and said bye, bye. It was just a real small claim that I would have paid for if I planned to keep the ins. A year later I call em back up up and say " Yo, I want to renew my policy now!" Same company all these years now.
Once a year they send someone to mess with me by cancelling, audit, or with false info I have to sort out. I guess I do deserve that. Its something of a game now. I can't wait til the new girl comes out for the audit on fri.
My policy allows for a percentage of paid contractors. So the Wc thing isn't even my problem. Its for this guy I did about 6 grand for this year.
Some guys get the Ho to cut me a check. I was at this one place for an hour once and the lady gave me a check for a G. It was what the guy owed me. I just make a invoice for them. Its not hurting me and it sure helps whoever owes me. What a racket!
I guess I would rather do it like that than have the mexicans. Really. America holds a 50,000 person lottery. Its open to all those who are not American only. Apparently this has been tru for a few years. I just heard of it. Its just no use.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Good for them for making it here, and I have nothing against them personally, especially if they are legal. But we can not be the sponge that mops up excess labor capacity in a world with 6+ billion people. Not without destroying ourselves anyway.

I'm not talking about a rural meat processing plant that hires all illegals so they can pay minimum wage. The people I deal with pay over industry standard, starting labor around $10-12, experienced groundsman around $15, climber trainee $13-15.

Kids these days think things should be given, not earned. There are exceptions that make the rule, but it is getting harder to find them. Even telling kids that you have no faith, and they mush prove themselves does not work. That used to be a rule, the newguy was the know-nothing worm. Now they whine about people being mean to them.

If there is a more reliable pool I say go for it. As long as you are legal and fair. I'm all for a level playing field for people who want to work, I just cannot see ruling out immigrant labor to struggle finding a white 22 year old who does not act like a 16 year old.

 

[TreeBot]

I'm not talking about a rural meat processing plant that hires all illegals so they can pay minimum wage. The people I deal with pay over industry standard

That's just it though, industry standards would be much higher in fields like ours if it wasn't for unlimited access access to immigrant labor. It is simple supply and demand.

My grandfather payed wages nearly that high in 1970 when a brand new truck cost $2000, the materials to build a house cost $5000-$10,000, and a candy bar cost a nickel or a dime instead of a dollar.

It's a tough issue, many people who use immigrants would not even be able to stay in business without them, I don't pretend it is simple or cut and dried, but the degree of influx of desperate laborers puts a severe downward strain on the wages of those Americans who can least afford it.

There is a reason why those immigrants work so hard: they are making many times more money than their fathers and grandfathers ever had a chance to, while their American competition is making many times less than what their's made.

 

[00chris85]

don't pick on the 20 somethings we arn't all that bad

i come from a father and son company (i'm the son) the ground guys that we hire are mad at us when i'm doing all the "fun/cool" jobs (running a saw for 8 hrs a day losses it's fun rather quickly in my mind) and i'm younger then them. they see it as unfair to load wood/brush, when there is a guy that is the same age as him who dose the climbing and cutting.
They won't say anything for about 2 days then it normally starts at a lunch, picking on me that is, and bellyaching. but it's pretty bad when a 20 year old kid is out working a 25 is what i always say to them. depending on the kid dad and i will keep count as to how many times they will pull up their pants in a day.
we have always found that the best people to work is old loggers and French men. if you can get a couple of loggers from Quebec your laughing.

I'm ashamed to be part of the age group that doesn't want to work or doesn't want to work for nothing less then 15 an hour.

 

[tree MDS]

We aint sayin yer all bad, just the vast majority. Take your crew with 2 out of 3 being whiners.

Its like I said, the parenting thing.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

My grandfather payed wages nearly that high in 1970

Are you adjusting for inflation or quoting top climber pay?

Here in the MKE area guys were making $7-8/hr as climbers. Top man was around $10/hr from what I'm told which is $20k/yr before OT.

Not bad, it's close to what my Dad was doing as a educated civil servant.

 

[senechal]

we have always found that the best people to work is old loggers and French men. if you can get a couple of loggers from Quebec your laughing.

the french connection!:greenchainsaw:

 

[Wiredp]

I make more than 10/hr as a groundie, but I guess that is just a difference in region. I think it may be because they are trying to build a good crew so they don't want to train somebody and then lose them.

 

[Timberhauler]

I had a guy like that a while back.I could go on for days about some of the stuff he did.I eventually fired him because he couldn't stay out of trouble with the law..He always was bugging me to let him climb.He insisted that he did all of the climbing for another outfit he worked for.He was 24 at the time and smoked at least two and a half packs a day.He always had this terrible cough.It was almost sad.I granted him his wish one day when we were doing some trimming on some lake front lots.There were about 90 trees to climb,all of the brush was staying so there wasn't really any ground work to do.The job was a two hour drive from home so I really had to get all I could out of each day.I told him not to rush but to pace himself and he still insisted that he would get more done than me(even though I had to set his rope for him on every single tree because he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the throwline).He dropped my climbing saw twice and cut into my brand new climbing rope causing me to loose 30ft of it.By 2 that afternoon he was dehydrated and was about to have a heat stroke.To mention I was climbing about 3 trees to his one.I'm not saying every 24 year old is like this,but the ones that are get on my nerves.

 

[ropensaddle]

I make more than 10/hr as a groundie, but I guess that is just a difference in region. I think it may be because they are trying to build a good crew so they don't want to train somebody and then lose them.

If you are a groundy that remembers to get the gas lids on,
have the porty and bull rope ready and know where to be located
doing so. Starts getting brush up when safe can tighten chain proper.
Rivs but never bitc?es and always does his best to be what his climber
needs then you are worth a good fifteen imo. I however see more that
even though they think they are on top of it, aren't. Good groundmen
are a terrific asset the others a dime a dozen but the best groundy is
a well seasoned climber! to the good and best groundy's
you know who you are and so does your boss or he should!

 

[senechal]

I think it may be because they are trying to build a good crew so they don't want to train somebody and then lose them.

That is a good practice indeed, but only part of the equation. A larger company can offer a lot to a new worker as incentive to stick around, but the turnover problem still exists proportionally. Fortunately the perks continue because it's seen as doing the right thing.

Could it be that this is a generation burdened by choice? Easy credit for more options of vehicles and equipment than ever breeds easy exits to company ownership, followed by the hiring of some cheap labour. Repeat process and we hit today's saturation levels.

Most of my friends my age see no long term prosperity potential and have little interest in staying at any job until a more convenient (in the short term) opportunity presents itself. People are cherry picking jobs just like employers used to cherry pick from the crowds of applicants. That said, it takes a particular individual (particularly tweaked? haha) to get into the tree biz, and then you throw personality dynamics into the mix.

We had a ground hire this year go out and buy all his own gear to qualify for a climbing arborist raise, but made no effort to learn knots or wood dynamics and aerial chainsaw let alone physical climbing. He had the nuts to raise a stink about the raise. We took this guy out on our crew for a couple of days at a gentle pace and he complained he'd never worked so hard at the company. The wrong personality dynamics and you can take a hire that seems fine and watch him go at the end of the week.

 

[TreeBot]

Are you adjusting for inflation or quoting top climber pay?

No I am not adjusting for inflation, that's the problem, wages have not been rising with inflation.

He wasn't an arborist, he built houses but he paid at least $6 an hour to start and anyone who stuck around long made it to $10 pretty quick.

Here in the MKE area guys were making $7-8/hr as climbers. Top man was around $10/hr from what I'm told which is $20k/yr before OT.

You would have to make $111,635.57 before overtime (source) to have the same purchasing power today as $20k had in 1970. That's over $55 an hour! And that is using government figures which many say are underestimated. At this rate in another 30 years we will be making the equivalent of $2hr.

 

[lxt]

treebot, those numbers are no doubt right on!! thats one of the problems with this trade, prices in my area on a tree can be from $250-$800 on the same tree!!! imagine the home owners thoughts.

corporate greed has in some ways got its hooks into all of us, cause we know what we need to make in order to survive....but if we truly bid what we should people would think we are crazy!! Now comes along rapper I want some "bling" with his pants falling down......I start my guys off pretty good $12+ hour to start!! if you have commonsense you will quickly move up to $15 hr.

The one kid I had was my parents foster kid, good worker but similar to the newbe mentioned earlier......he was on SSI..why? cause he had problems, bi-polar, ruptured ear drum, learning impairment, etc.. he made $600.00 a month on SSI when I told him to fill out the W-4 (which he needed help on) & explained what that was for.......he Quit!! he told me that $600.00 I will get for the rest of my life & im not giving that up...work me under the table "man"

needless to say...........C ya!! this is their thought process, not all of em but many of em!! Society has created soft, put in time out, crybabies who think they are worth more than they are.....They`re taught & told how to do this!!

by spoiling our children we inadvertantly ruin the future of this country, what was once built on the backs of men who`s sweaty brows forged ahead is now built on the backs of illegals hired by our children & done cheaper..no pride!!


LXT..................

 

[senechal]

agreed. My dad always brought me down a notch when I started to get high on my horse at work, told me I could be replaced in a flash and be grateful for what you've got. You want it, you've got to earn it fair and square. I think you're right in saying higher wages and raises and perks are basically expected now.

 

[tomtrees58]

Hand him you vehicle cost sheet, insurance bill, fuel bill, chain saw purchase price, and total up all the little toys, ropes, clips, slings, blocks, etc, and see how much 'Bling' he has left from that $350 limb. :green chainsaw:

he does not see the hole picture tom trees:jawdrop:

 

[B-Edwards]

I think times are going to get rough enough where alot of people see how lucky they are/were. The free ride is about over for a lot of lazy know-it-all people. Bad thing is, most who have had to pay their dues will winding up paying them some more.

 

[Blakesmaster]

You would have to make $111,635.57 before overtime (source) to have the same purchasing power today as $20k had in 1970. That's over $55 an hour! And that is using government figures which many say are underestimated. At this rate in another 30 years we will be making the equivalent of $2hr.

Man, I want somma dat bling! lol

 

[asetree]

You know what they say.

The best way to make a Small fortune in the tree business

Start out with a Large One.