Z-133

[CJ-7]

Interesting thread. For those of us not familiar with the standard you are referring to, it it quite lengthy? Is it something that someone could put in outline form on one or two sheets in a word format and post for everyone to reproduce and hand out to your workers and clients and to stick under the wiper blade of some of those hack toppers? A copy attached to a quote may enlighten many a customer thinking about taking the low bid from a non-professional. I would be interested in seeing a quick recap of Z-133 if someone has the time to put one together. Or is A-300 the standard that would be of the most use?

 

[Nickrosis]

I'm glad you know so much more than I do. I'm still wondering one thing...how do you know you're abiding by something that you haven't even seen? How? I'm not attacking you, and I'm not sorry. I have never seen your work, I did not indicate that you perform substandard work, but I don't know how you know what the Z.133 says without seeing it. I believe you perform excellent tree care judging by your posts and what I've heard of your business.

About OSHA and ANSI...the relationship is this: OSHA uses the ANSI standards as guidelines in evaluating accident cases. Why should they subsidize ANSI? Having ANSI as an independent, industry-driven organization is best, in my view, instead of having government dictate what we should be doing in our work.

The Z.133 talks about tree care techniques and spends a lot of time defining terms - something that a homeowner probably wouldn't care to read about. Here's what we distribute to our customers regarding ANSI - it's a publication that I wrote.
http://www.arboristdesign.com/portfolio/print/ctl_phc_summer_02.jpg

TreeTX, I have a lengthy complaint letter in the making for the ISA Certification Board. They didn't listen to my comments in the past. Derek Vannice laughed off my criticisms when I visited the ISA office... another topic, another place, another time.

Contest what I say! I feel strongly about this, and I believe I have good reasons for feeling the way I do.

Nickrosis

 

[TREETX]

Nick - I like the way you at least educate customers about any such national standard. I think that covers what a customer needs to know. They don't need to know the minutia of tree care. Whether we practice them or not, we all need to know them. It will help you cover your a$$.

I realize I pi$$ and moan about the ISA - wish I had some solutions. Busy with the staying afloat in the slow season here. Motivation and creativity are essential.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Re: ANSI should be free

I've come to the conclusion that the ANSI standards SHOULD be available free [/QUOTE]

ANSI is an organization, they need to pay their bills to.

If it was just a committee coming up with standards that were merely suggestions... they should have every right to try to sell them.

In a way that is what is going on

They put their hard work and expertise in to it, they deserve pay.

The commity members don't get much for there involvemnt.

However, when OSHA starts saying we MUST follow ANSI, it sounds like OSHA should fund the committe and start providing us with a means of obtaining free copies.

This is the crux of the matter. OSHA wanted to treat our industry as loggers, the comity was established to write a national standard of safe operation so that companies could be held liable in the case of injury or death.

If we were held to logging standards it would be impossible to fell a tree in a back yard.

Hard hats and eye protection SHALL be worn at all times when tree work is in progress. This way if PPE is not provided and there is a "struck by" injury to the head the employee injured has legal recourse.

If you are a person who works by themself, the stadards do not apply to you in an enforcement sence, since you are no ones employee.

As a buisness owner, one should know the standards so you know the bar to wich you will be judged by OSHA.

As an employee, you should be familiar with the standards so you know your rights in the workplace.

Free copies would be better for the trees, better for the clients, better for the hack companies, and better for those of us in the know.

That being said, my copy is already on order. I tried to get it through the library, but that didn't work out!

That solves everything, Nick is the one giving out all the free copies. Just send a SASE to Ripon WI.

 

[Eric E.]

professional ? or Professional ? I guess that is the difference.

The only excuse for not having it is if you are self-employed and have no one working with you. If someone is injuried these are the standards you will be sued with.

If you work for someone then they should provide you with a copy. Thumbs up to Treeman 14!!! You'd be the kind of guy I'd work for.

 

[Stumper]

CJ-7, If you do a web search for "ANSI " you should find a previous revision of Z-133. It can also be viewed through a link on the ISA web-site. The Z is not long. It is a commonsense approach to safety that goes a little further than the average person might conclude on their own. It consists of 'rules' about rope strengths, snap and carabiner styles and test ratings, safe use of gaffs, proper tie-in/attachment systems etc. The A-300 standard is much longer and sets standards for tree care operations (how to do the work rather than just safety). I consider A-300 to be much more useful for showing to a customer(though I have never actually shown it to a customer to back up my recommendations-I just reference it and most people accept what I'm saying.) I do not think never having read the standards automatically makes one a hack but I certainly recommend reading them.

 

[Dan Flinn]

This is a great thread. I never really thought about it, much. I'll be honest, I have (and read) a copy so I can honestly represent to the customer that I follow the guidelines.

I have read so many discussions about the ISA certification. I have it. Why? Because the clients I work for recognize that being certified is a commitment to constantly expanding my knowledge base. If they don't realize it before they call, they will after I meet with them. You and I both know that having the certification in no way makes me better than someone who doesn't. In fact, I basically perform work the same now as I did before I took the test.

My reasons for having the certification is for client perception. Same goes for having/reading the Z standard. These are just more ways I can set myself apart, in the clients eye, from the "pack" of tree companies in my area.

Dan

 

[Oxman]

The ANSI booklets may not be free, but what about each states own implementation of safety standards that are called OSHA? The state refers to these safety standards in its own law, effectively enforcing the ANSI safety portion.

This is not the pruning standard we have been talking about, but its probably available for free. Hope it doesn't cost anyone an inspection to get it.

Sorry about taking a hard line in this thread, but why not walk the talk?

 

[Eric E.]

Dan Flinn,

I like your thoughts on Certification...Some of the most intelligent reasoning for certification I've read yet.

 

[Tim Walsh]

ANSI's response to charging for standards questions:

http://www.ansi.org/public/why_charge.html

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Thanks Tim, that answers the question quite thoroughly.

Tom

 

[NickfromWI]

Yippee!!!

I got my "Z" today!!! Let me know if you need me to look something up!

love
nick

 

[Stumper]

Nick, Please look up Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists.

 

[NickfromWI]

WTF?

Stumper,
"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem."

love
nick

p.s. what was the point of that?

 

[Stumper]

I was being silly about your offer to look stuff up Nick. However I was trying to send you to an important source of knowledge at the same time. The talking heads are constantly blithering about the "separation of church and state" but hardly anyone realizes that no such phrase exists in our Constitution. The phrase is Jefferson's but the context of its use shows a much different underlying principle than what some try to make the first ammendment be about. The 1st ammendment makes it clear that government can't dictate religion. Jefferson's letter to the Danbury baptists isn't about no prayer in public schools rather it holds up Christian education as the cure for government corruption. HMMMM......would that be in contrast to GOVERNMENT education........

Stuff for arborists to consider. To keep this from being totally off topic I'll say that as regards the Z. whether or not something is published and taught by the government or a private enterprise its morality and legitamacy are still open to review. Just because X, Y or Z says something does not necessarily make it so.

 

[blackwaterguide]

That's Z133.1 isn't it? I appreciate treeclimber165 remarks--well said. I've been in logging, tree work, construction all my life. There are always corners to cut and shabby work to be done. But I've yet to see solid evidence that taking a class or test will assure that, if skill and years of experience prevail, that textbook rules will always be followed. It is good to have a beginning point of reference. Take it from there, do work you are proud of, and the profession/industry will thrive.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Those who equate the Z with good work do not understand what it is there for. It is an industry developed standard for OSHA to measure us buy so they do not apply logging and construction regulations to our work place.

Conformity is not obligatory, but the more people you have in your operation, the better it is to CYA by learning and following the standard.

For the production employee it is good to know what is there so you have a leg to stand on when the management gets on to do things that are not safe, or can you for not following directions.

 

[blackwaterguide]

spurs

Hello guys,
Treeman and RFtree told it like it is. And, yes, I have spiked myself and my line...I do stupid stuff sometimes.
Ther really is no place for spurs (gaffs) on crown reduction for the reasons already mentioned. I started climbing back in the 70's when hemp was in (pun intended), but we knew then that spiking the cambium opened wounds for potential disease/pests. At the time we didn't have all the neat mountain climbing toys like you can get from Sherrill and others now. Hey, it's neat stuff and I enjoy trying to learn how to use it. You'd had a gut laugh if you saw me first time trying microcenders and figure 8's. But, alas, it is alot like any trade; the more specialized the tools and knowledge, the more money will be spent and charged. Don't know if I'll ever give up my rope snap, but the tautline has gone the wayside for blakes hitch long ago.

 

[blackwaterguide]

A300

Right on Dan, and Stumper. Get certified to show the client something. Something you already knew and didn't necessarily need to be tested on. A300 more helpful than put on hard hat before driving skidder under hung tree. Let's face it, there is some really moronic red tape and foolishness going on. I really like that line "There is no government like no government" in many respects. But perhaps some of it comes to good avail, if it saves our soul from the morons. You all be careful out there and God bless

 

[Nickrosis]

Originally posted by Down To Earth
as usual you worded it better than me. I was a little offended earlier when stevens point, nick implied that since I dont have the Z there was no way that I could be applying the standard

That was not the point. Here is my point so that there can be no misunderstanding and so that you can be offended without any obfuscation, which I would like to eschew.

There is no way you can know that you are following the standard if you have not read it.

This means:
1. You can be following it without reading it, but you cannot be sure of this until you read it.
2. You can not be following it without reading it, but you cannot be sure of this until you read it.
3. You can be following it and not be following it without reading it, but you cannot be sure of this until you read it.
4. Even after you read it, you may misinterpret it or interpret it in a way that the authors did not intend.

I'm not saying you're a hack because I cannot know this, and I'm not sitting at my computer thinking you are. All I know about you is what I gather from your posts and from what that dork said about you while he was flaming. So....have a nice day, and post after you have read the standard.

And Dan, if you would e-mail me a mailing address, I will send the Z-133 to you at no charge. Merry Christmas.

Nickrosis