# SRT to DdRT Transition



## Fireaxman (Feb 13, 2009)

Making near 100' assents in Loblolly and Bald Cypress, I am now addicted to SRT. But working (usually pruning and removing dead wood) I find DdRT almost a necessity. I have been making the transition after the assent by either bringing up a seperate DdRT rig (including cambium protector and/or friction saver) or by pulling up the tail of my SRT line and doubling it through a crotch for DdRT.

The first option has not been entirely satisfactory because of the extra equipment I have to drag up the tree and because I occasionally have trouble moving or removing the friction saver from lower levels (hung up in a tight crotch, lines twisted or tangled, difficulty re-establishing a tag line in case I have to return to the tree). The second method (pulling up the SRT tail) does not work especially well because cuttings sometimes hang up in the loop and because of wear to the cambium if I do not use a friction saver in my aversion to carrying up that "one more" piece of equipment. I also would like to get off my SRT line for working to protect it from wear, since I use a higher quality (and more expensive) rope for SRT.

Does anybody see anything wrong or dangerous about this? I am already bringing up the CMI Ropewalker as a backup for my ascenders, and it is easier to pocket the pully for a friction saver than to bring up my 48" Ring and Ring. This rig is giving me far less trouble retrieving than the Ring and Ring (if it hangs in a crotch the SRT rope just pulls out of the Ropewalker and the rope walker falls to the ground) and it lets me restore a tag line without having to double the tag line during retrieval (with the attendant twists and tangles). The only risk I see is the continuous pressure point of the Ropewalker on the SRT line, but the Ropewalker seems to be pretty gentle.


----------



## emr (Feb 13, 2009)

I do something similar, but I use a different ascender and I always put a butterfly knot either above or below as a backup. I then clip the biner into the butterfly knot. I prefer putting the butterfly knot above the ascenders if at all possible, but sometimes that is not easy or possible. Overall, I say what you have is fine, but it could be made safer by adding some sort of backup.


----------



## UrbanLogger (Feb 13, 2009)

I do something similar to your pic, the only thing I dont like about the pic u attached is the fact that when you are working off the pulley it is putting pressure on the rope walker causing it to cock sideways ( i know that may not make sense, but i'm at a loss for words) putting pressure and access friction in the srt line, at the top end of the rope walker(where the rope is bent arounf the top end of the rope walker), that would worry me, if that line is cut,heavly worn or damaged too badly, which could and I stress could (most likely not, but could) happen from moving around and you could be in for a long, bad ride. I use a prissik loop with a large aluminum ring or micro-pulley on it. This would also work as a back up to your asscenders. I really like working from a floating anchor, it allows you to work on the way up, if you want.


----------



## Fireaxman (Feb 14, 2009)

emr said:


> I do something similar, but I use a different ascender and I always put a butterfly knot either above or below as a backup. I then clip the biner into the butterfly knot. I prefer putting the butterfly knot above the ascenders if at all possible, but sometimes that is not easy or possible. Overall, I say what you have is fine, but it could be made safer by adding some sort of backup.



Good suggestion. Does the butterfly knot have any tendency to jam up on you, is it hard to untie after the climb?


----------



## Fireaxman (Feb 14, 2009)

UrbanLogger said:


> ... I use a prissik loop with a large aluminum ring or micro-pulley on it. This would also work as a back up to your asscenders. I really like working from a floating anchor, it allows you to work on the way up, if you want.



I think I understand what you are saying. The rope walker does have a rounded tip on the upper end to guard against cutting the SRT line, but that kind of pressure on the SRT rope (especially in the static position the rope walker is in, pressure in one spot as long as I am on the DdRT) is exactly what I am concerned about.

I had not thought about using a prusic and a ring. Sounds good. Easy to pocket, maybe less abrasive; I guess I could also use a Blakes or Mitchoacan and a ring; I always carry a couple extra split tails anyway. Think I'll give that a try and see how it looks. Thanks.


----------



## D Mc (Feb 14, 2009)

Fireaxman said:


> Does anybody see anything wrong or dangerous about this?



Yes. I would not climb on that setup. Urban Logger's recommendation of a prussik with a ring or pulley is much preferred. The prussik will need to have more wraps than what you are used to with doubled-rope use in order to hold. 

The reason this is safer is that the Ropewalker or any cammed ascender can damage the rope in the event of a fall. 

I use the floating false crotch frequently but I will have my ground person pull up the excess line and tie in my pulley at the end of that line with the other end tied off at the base of the tree. This allows ground assisted rescue and you will never again get your friction-saver caught in the crotch when you remove your rigging. 

Dave


----------



## emr (Feb 15, 2009)

The butterfly knot has never once over tightened on me. You should be fine if you use that knot. The reason I mentioned putting the knot above the ascender is exactly what D Mc was taking about. My ideal set up for working Drt off of SRT is using a hand ascender backed up with a friction hitch in the top hole. Then attach your pulley/climbing system in the bottom hole. I then tie a butterfly knot just below the hand ascender and clip that into the biner with the pulley. Finally I will unload the ascender and make sure the friction hitch has all of my weight. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Fireaxman (Feb 16, 2009)

emr said:


> The butterfly knot has never once over tightened on me. You should be fine if you use that knot. The reason I mentioned putting the knot above the ascender is exactly what D Mc was taking about. My ideal set up for working Drt off of SRT is using a hand ascender backed up with a friction hitch in the top hole. Then attach your pulley/climbing system in the bottom hole. I then tie a butterfly knot just below the hand ascender and clip that into the biner with the pulley. Finally I will unload the ascender and make sure the friction hitch has all of my weight. Hope that makes sense.



Had to think about that for a minute, but I've got it. Like it. Thanks. Guess I need to learn to tie a butterfly. Is it in Jepson's TCC? Dont have my copy with me tonight. No problem, I can look it up on the web, and I have a local freind who knows about it when he gets back in town.


----------



## emr (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah, alot of this stuff is super hard to explain in writing, but super easy to show in person. I really hope what I wrote mades sense, if not ask me again. Good luck.


----------



## Fireaxman (Feb 18, 2009)

UrbanLogger said:


> .... I use a prissik loop with a large aluminum ring or micro-pulley on it. This would also work as a back up to your asscenders. I really like working from a floating anchor, it allows you to work on the way up, if you want.



Had a chance to play with it a little this morning. Yes, the Prussic looks and feels much safer. And, borrowing ideas from emr, it's easy to lock it in with either a butterfly or a slippery marl if I am going to be on it for a while. 

I'm going to get a couple of smaller rings from Sherrill and make a ring on ring prussic with 3/8 Samson double braid that I can dedicate to this purpose. Then I wont need the 'biner.


----------



## moray (Feb 25, 2009)

Fireaxman said:


> Had a chance to play with it a little this morning. Yes, the Prussic looks and feels much safer. And, borrowing ideas from emr, it's easy to lock it in with either a butterfly or a slippery marl if I am going to be on it for a while...



Maybe I am missing something, but would it not be simpler to simply clip into the butterfly and forget the prusik? The butterfly is very fast to tie and untie, and that's the loop knot I usually use for the ground anchor of my SRT setups. It would be natural to use the same loop at the top, as you show.

If you really want simplicity, you could ditch the biner and and girth hitch your Ring and Ring to the butterfly, but I believe rope-to-rope connections are seldom used. Perhaps in this application the girth hitch would work fine.


----------



## Fireaxman (Feb 26, 2009)

moray said:


> Maybe I am missing something, but would it not be simpler to simply clip into the butterfly and forget the prusik? The butterfly is very fast to tie and untie, and that's the loop knot I usually use for the ground anchor of my SRT setups. It would be natural to use the same loop at the top, as you show.
> 
> If you really want simplicity, you could ditch the biner and and girth hitch your Ring and Ring to the butterfly, but I believe rope-to-rope connections are seldom used. Perhaps in this application the girth hitch would work fine.



Yes, it would be simpler. Maybe I'm just playing with different ways of doing things, but as UrbanLogger said "I really like working from a floating anchor, it allows you to work on the way up, if you want." It also allows me to carry a shorter (lighter) piece of rope up for the DdRt and then just slide the prussick down as needed to work my way down the tree rather than untieing and re-tieing the butterfly. As simple as the butterfly is, its still take of the gloves, tie, dress, and set, put the gloves back on.

Finally, I am hoping the more linear nature of the ring/ring prussik without the butterfly and 'biner will get it down with less chance of hangups once I am back on the ground. No loops, no knots, no hangups. The first time I tried this the Ropewalker and 'biner hung up on a limb as I was bringing it down. The rope just pulled on through it and came on down, and the ropewalker fell down from the other side of the limb after the rope cleared it.


----------



## treemandan (Feb 27, 2009)

I see why you would want a cambium saver working the trees you do. Using Arbormaster 13mm for the last number of years I will put it through just about anything around here. Even if its tight or rough.
I would love a friction saver in a pine but know one day I will have to climb it again from ground zero to get it back. Or do more damage trying to get it out. I like more thier rigging pontential.

A suggestion:
run a line close down the trunk one end secured to the bottom. The other end goes over and back down from your tip, right as it comes out of the tip crotch and back down tie an 8 knot, add pulley and your drt line. Pull it all out from the ground when you untie the knot at the bottom.

With this is is possible for your line to be in the proximaty of the cut. You have to watch out where it goes back down.

A lot of times I just stay on the srt line to work.


----------



## Fireaxman (Feb 27, 2009)

treemandan said:


> A suggestion:
> run a line close down the trunk one end secured to the bottom. The other end goes over and back down from your tip, right as it comes out of the tip crotch and back down tie an 8 knot, add pulley and your drt line. Pull it all out from the ground when you untie the knot at the bottom.
> 
> With this is is possible for your line to be in the proximaty of the cut. You have to watch out where it goes back down.
> ...



Pretty close to what I am doing. Rather than staying "... close down the trunk..." I usually tie off to a neighboring tree, which kicks the "Dead" end of my SRT out from the trunk of the tree I am working on. Gets it a little out of harms way. I still have to be very careful about the "Working" side of the SRT line, especially since I usually do work off the SRT on the way up. Sugoi occasionally gets a strand or two of it, much to my embarassment but fortunately not yet to my death. Steel core flipline adds a little insurance. Fortunately I am a great deal more careful with the 200t.

The "8", "Butterfly", "Bowline in a Bite", or "Ring/Ring Prussik" relative merits of each, are what I am still playing with.

I occasionally use a piece of garden hose for a cambium saver, especially if I expect to use the same TIP more than once. It works pretty well as long as you dont have to pull the rope through it under tension. Couriously enough though, I accepted the advice you offer and I have been offered in the past to purchase a "Real" cambium saver this week and ordered the leather one from Sherrill.

I recognize your Arbormaster "Blue Streak". I have some, and like it. After 3 years my 200 foot hank is down to a 120 and a 40, as I have had to remove a few Sugoi bites, but it is still serving me well. Good, tough rope. Never had a piece of Arbor*plex* last that long.


----------



## treemandan (Feb 27, 2009)

Fireaxman said:


> Pretty close to what I am doing. Rather than staying "... close down the trunk..." I usually tie off to a neighboring tree, which kicks the "Dead" end of my SRT out from the trunk of the tree I am working on. Gets it a little out of harms way. I still have to be very careful about the "Working" side of the SRT line, especially since I usually do work off the SRT on the way up. Sugoi occasionally gets a strand or two of it, much to my embarassment but fortunately not yet to my death. Steel core flipline adds a little insurance. Fortunately I am a great deal more careful with the 200t.
> 
> The "8", "Butterfly", "Bowline in a Bite", or "Ring/Ring Prussik" relative merits of each, are what I am still playing with.
> 
> ...




Yes, my 20 took a lunge at my srt once a time ago. I was tired, lost the rope in the sun, went for a little sucker off the trunk dangleing without my lanyard. Did not do much damage to the real tree climbing rope.


----------



## Fireaxman (Mar 5, 2009)

*Ring/Ring Prussik*

Pretty much settled on this. Can't make it slip except when I want it to, seems to be very easy on the ropes, quick and esy to install, light and comfortable to carry, no hang ups retrieving, Cheap.

This seems to be very safe and reliable. I dont think I need a midline knot like a butterfly, BOAB, or 8. Any comments?


----------

