# AmeriCorps... humboldt or conventional?



## forestryworks (Feb 21, 2012)

Just got a phone call that I may be helping out an AmeriCorp crew falling large hazard trees on TNC ground north of me. They'll be doing some trail maintenance and taking out hazard trees from last year's Tejano Canyon and Rock House Fire.

Has anyone worked with these guys before? Do they humboldt cut or conventional?

I figured an organization like that would follow S-212 powersaw class as part of their training.


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## Sport Faller (Feb 21, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> Just got an phone call that I may be helping out an AmeriCorp crew falling large hazard trees on TNC ground north of me. They'll be doing some trail maintenance and taking out hazard trees from last year's Tejano Canyon and Rock House Fire.
> 
> Has anyone worked with these guys before? Do they humboldt cut or conventional?



If I had to guess I'd say it's probably going to be like working with your Youtube buddy, The C-Faller, and all of his closest (or is that closet?) friends


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## forestryworks (Feb 21, 2012)

bigskyjake said:


> If I had to guess I'd say it's probably going to be like working with your Youtube buddy, The C-Faller, and all of his closest (or is that closet?) friends



:hmm3grin2orange:

If that's the case, I'll just say, "oh no, I'm just here for the big trees you guys aren't going to do. By the way, can you pack in my other saw?"

Then I can sit on a stump and whistle "If I Were King of the Forest".  Right, John?


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## Sport Faller (Feb 21, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> If that's the case, I'll just say, "oh no, I'm just here for the big trees you guys aren't going to do. By the way, can you pack in my other saw?"
> 
> Then I can sit on a stump and whistle "If I Were King of the Forest".  Right, John?



"go ahead and grab a stump guys, it's clinic time"


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## 2dogs (Feb 21, 2012)

I've worked with AmeriCorps maybe a dozen times, all on small jobs. Most are well meaning but clueless beyond their minimal training. I have never seen them use anything but a conventional face but I have never seen them drop a tree larger than 12-14" DBH either. 

I have witnessed a couple of bad situations with AmeriCorps workers. I was not directly involved, I was just an observer. One had to do with extremely arrogant workers that refused several assignments they thought were below them. The other had to do with pampas grass removal with chainsaws. They damaged at least 2 saws using them in the wrong application but refused to use any other tool because their internal orders specified chainsaws. They needed to change what they were doing because it wasn't working but they did not care because the gov't was paying.

Good luck and don't turn your back on them.


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## Jacob J. (Feb 21, 2012)

One key to remember about Americorps, a lot of them are volunteers so they don't have the same levels of training 
as regular employees. Just like with any other pseudo-government organization, they have a fair share of dysfunction. 
There are some good people in the outfit but none are fallers and can be quite dangerous with a saw. 
You know your subject matter so be a strong pack leader and if they ask you to do something stupid or dangerous,
don't back down.


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## forestryworks (Feb 21, 2012)

Well it should be an interesting experience to say the least. 

There is a lot of Ponderosa up there in the Davis Mountains. 30-40" on the stump is big for this far south, saw several of them in that range. Lots of 20-30" as well.


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## RandyMac (Feb 21, 2012)

Hoods in the woods.


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## 2dogs (Feb 21, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> There are some good people in the outfit but none are fallers and can be quite dangerous with a saw.
> You know your subject matter so be a strong pack leader and if they ask you to do something stupid or dangerous,
> don't back down.



Yep. You might want to explain to them how to turn down an assignment. Tell them in no uncertain terms that you are the only faller to work hazardous trees. You may even have to explain what a hazardous tree is. Don't take anything for granted.


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## slowp (Feb 21, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Hoods in the woods.



Hardly. The ones here are young, enthusiastic, idealistic Peace Corps types. They are going to college or are out of college. Most come from the Mid East or the East Coast. They tend to be tree huggers. We try to educate them on that point. They organize "youth centers" and Sunday afternoon open gyms for the local kids. They also have Girl's Nights Out and the same for boys, which are slumber parties. That's actually a good thing. Some of our local kids don't get out of the valley much. 

Jamison, do not go in with a stereotype. Go with an open mind. You are too young to be cynical. Wait for a good Fist Of Doom Crushing later on...
Fist of Doom is from Dilbert.


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## forestryworks (Feb 21, 2012)

More info... majority of the work is roadside hazards, one chain out from both sides of quite a few roads. Sure to get in on some decent sized stuff.

I've been to that area several times and a lot of the roads there follow streams or creeks, and that's where the Ponderosa like to reside. 

This far south, you will also find Ponderosa in sheltered canyons with white pine (P. strobiformis) and on north facing slopes. South slopes are dominated by Pinon and juniper.

Oh, and the corps members are pretty green!

It's one of the nicer parts of TX to work in...


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## 2dogs (Feb 21, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Hoods in the woods.



Maybe but I never ran into an AmeriCorps volunteer who was. In fact every guy or girl I spoke with was from an east coast wealthy upbringing. More likely to be snobs than hoods. I've worked with inmate crews and youth crews but the worst was a Fed crew hired by the Soil Conservation Service...but dang it I can't remember their name.


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## madhatte (Feb 21, 2012)

Looks like an adventure, if nothing else, and also a primer on how to work within government agencies with questionable leadership. Plus, a job in the woods is a job in the woods, and these days, that's nothing to shake a stick at.


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## RandyMac (Feb 21, 2012)

You are right sweetp, I was thinking of the YouthCorps or something like that.


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## slowp (Feb 21, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> You are right sweetp, I was thinking of the YouthCorps or something like that.



I believe your fair state has the 3 Cs. My friend calls them the feces. They would fit the hoods in the woods description from what I have heard.


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## joesawer (Feb 21, 2012)

I worked in a tiny community that they where working in.
It was pretty funny all the drama they brought with them! 
Don't let them set your standards! You have been instructed by some of the best in the world.


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## RandyMac (Feb 21, 2012)

I got it, Hoods in the woods was the Jobcorps!


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## Gologit (Feb 21, 2012)

Not much I can add here. You got some good advice.
You might be the only one on the crew with real-world falling experience. Be very careful of your co-workers until their skill level becomes apparent. This might be a good opportunity for you to pass on what you've learned and help other people to be productive and safe.
Lead by example. If you _are_ the most experienced guy there, they'll be watching your every move.


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## Gologit (Feb 21, 2012)

joesawer said:


> I worked in a tiny community that they where working in.
> It was pretty funny all the drama they brought with them!
> Don't let them set your standards! You have been instructed by some of the best in the world.



Yup...good to see you back.


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## forestryworks (Feb 21, 2012)

joesawer said:


> I worked in a tiny community that they where working in.
> It was pretty funny all the drama they brought with them!
> Don't let them set your standards! You have been instructed by some of the best in the world.



Yup, lots of good ol' boys on here. I owe you guys!



Gologit said:


> Not much I can add here. You got some good advice.
> You might be the only one on the crew with real-world falling experience. Be very careful of your co-workers until their skill level becomes apparent. This might be a good opportunity for you to pass on what you've learned and help other people to be productive and safe.
> Lead by example. If you _are_ the most experienced guy there, they'll be watching your every move.



Well said, Bob.

This crew is pretty inexperienced from what I've been told. Gonna be a huge learning experience for them. The last AmeriCorps crew here was out of the Denver area; that was before I got here though.


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## serial feller (Feb 23, 2012)

I had the privelege of working with some fine Americorp folks when I got sent to Joplin for state emergency duty after the tornado. (I still play soldier on the weekends) Most of the Americorpers I saw were unbathed hippies who looked like they were on their way to OWS. We're talking white kids with dreadlocks. They were clickish, a tad arrogant, and had a bit of a chip on their shoulders. I didn't get to watch any of them cutting, my duties kept me elsewhere, but the sawyers I observed were carrying homeowner grade saws with 12 to 16" bars. Hopefully your crew will be of better stock than ones I saw. Good luck!


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## slowp (Feb 23, 2012)

I should think that most people in disaster areas would be "unbathed". I have come in black from head to toe after a few days out on a fire line. It is hard to keep clean in such circumstances, especially if no shower facilities have arrived.


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## serial feller (Feb 23, 2012)

slowp said:


> I should think that most people in disaster areas would be "unbathed". I have come in black from head to toe after a few days out on a fire line. It is hard to keep clean in such circumstances, especially if no shower facilities have arrived.



Agreed, but such was not the case. These people had access to facilities, showers, laundry, etc. They showed up having no haircuts, dirty clothes, unshaved, unbathed and unkempt. After they got settled in it didn't get any better. They simply didn't care. The displaced citizens were cleaner than these folks. Now they were there to help and that is honorable. Maybe they were honorable helpful dirty hippies!


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## WidowMaker (Feb 24, 2012)

slowp said:


> I should think that most people in disaster areas would be "unbathed". I have come in black from head to toe after a few days out on a fire line. It is hard to keep clean in such circumstances, especially if no shower facilities have arrived.



===


There's a big differance between being dirty from hard work and living filthy...


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## dhskier2 (Feb 24, 2012)

Well, maybe I can shed some light...
I'm a program manager of a Youth Conservation Corps in CO. We have an AmeriCorps operating grant and run our older (18-24yr old) crews (service crews, conservation crews, weatherization crews, saw crews, etc.) under the AmeriCorps banner. AmeriCorps is a federal grants program that looks different all across the country- after school programs, various human services for low-income populations, etc. And just like the crews you'll be working with, environmental impact crews. These crews are most often run through a "conservation corps" program model. Here in CO, we have a youth corps association, with ten different youth corps serving different service regions in the state.

All the corps I know of (CO, UT, AZ, MT, WY...) are running their saw programs through S-212 (or equivalent) level training.

As far as hoods in the woods- you're right on the money with JobCorps... not to be confused with a conservation corps, or AmeriCorps. Leave stereotypes at the door, but there's a good chance that you'll come across your fair share of "green hippies"  But not the tree hugger type

I typically hire two crews a year- that means 16 young people in total. I hire 95+% local, but as is typical with an AmeriCorps program, you'll mostly have young people from all across the country the crew.

I try, each crew, to re-hire at lease two from the previous season. It helps to have some experience back on board. Unless the crew has been on previous saw projects before you get them, you will probably have a beginner crew- most of whom have never run a saw before, and if they have, probably not in any sort of production capacity.

I'm fortunate to have a full-time staff Crew Leader for our saw program who has been with us three years (we ran a saw crew 10 months last year). This will probably not be the case with you. From what I know of other CC's in the rocky mountain region, Crew Leaders will have experience under their belt though. They've either come up through the CC world on saw crews, or have run saws for the FS or BLM as seasonals. I know of very few that come from any sort of professional full-time falling background.

As was said, most AmeriCorps members are volunteers- there are some capacities that they are earning a regular hourly wage- often $10-$12/hr vs. the meager living stipend most AmeriCorps members earn.

My advice- Be open to working with opinionated, but still impressionable young people. A high number of corps members working on a saw crew want to pursue wildland firefighting. Getting the saw experience with a CC is a great way for them to get their foot in the door somewhere.
I don't know you- but if you're good- then teach them everything you can. What I like to see is a corps member who has learned how to sharpen a chain the right way, who has picked up basic saw maintenance, who has learned how to tune a carb, etc., etc.
Make the most of- because for most of them, it will be one of the most memorable experiences of their young-adult lives.

I've got former corps members running saws on fire crews for the USFS and the BLM. I've got a guy- didn't have a GED, out of prison... punk by any standard. Earned his GED while working for us and now is a bucket-cutter for a local tree company- one of the few that has the reputation and business to stay open year-round.


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## Gologit (Feb 24, 2012)

Good information. Thanks.


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## 2dogs (Feb 24, 2012)

Great post skier. I was just on the phone to our parks dept leaving a message why last week's project didn't turn out as I had said it would. It was a Boy Scout conservation project clearing non-native invasive cotoneaster.


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## forestryworks (Feb 24, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Great post skier. I was just on the phone to our parks dept leaving a message why last week's project didn't turn out as I had said it would. It was a Boy Scout conservation project clearing non-native invasive cotoneaster.



That's another outlet I need to look into for hazard tree projects.

I enjoyed my time in Boy Scouts (got my Eagle). A good organization!


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## lfnh (Feb 24, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> That's another outlet I need to look into for hazard tree projects.
> 
> I enjoyed my time in Boy Scouts (got my Eagle). A good organization!



Life. OA.

Long, long time ago did far amount of volunteer land clearing for scout camp for a waterfront and extra sites. There was a great guy back then, Dave Geer, that was involved in that camp. Some of you old-ens might remember the name Geer.


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## forestryworks (Feb 24, 2012)

lfnh said:


> Life. OA.
> 
> Long, long time ago did far amount of volunteer land clearing for scout camp for a waterfront and extra sites. There was a great guy back then, Dave Geer, that was involved in that camp. Some of you old-ens might remember the name Geer.



I never got picked for OA. My pops did though. He's the one that pushed me to get my Eagle.


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## lfnh (Feb 24, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> I never got picked for OA. My pops did though. He's the one that pushed me to get my Eagle.



Eagle is quite an accomplishment. My old troop had 4 in 10 years. I can still remember all of their ceremonies. Two went to Powell. That was/is a big deal.


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## palogger (Feb 25, 2012)

another eagle here


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## Joe46 (Feb 25, 2012)

Never made it to Eagle. Did make OA and Dan Beard Ranger.


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## forestryworks (Feb 25, 2012)

Joe46 said:


> Never made it to Eagle. Did make OA and Dan Beard Ranger.



Dan Beard as in the Philmont backcountry camp or the Dan Beard Council?


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## lfnh (Feb 27, 2012)

A turn back in time. Just a pack rat. Thought these might of interest.
My Scout manual is mislaid someplace along with some Arrows. It will be found.
Just to make this somewhat legit in F&L there's a Ropes Knots and Climbing. Used that for a Merit badge taught by a neighbor that was old school logger. Much later went to work for him on a clearance and take down crew with the old Bartlett outfit. Henkels and McCoy were running a lot of new ROW stringing for the nuclear stations just coming on line. Lot of work. 3.25 hr to start. Air floppers, Macs and sitka spruce extensions and Skyworkers. Manila rope for climbing, rigging. Saddles were three loops of canvas and a leather climbing belt. New ROW was strip clearing piled and burned. ROW widening was apita lot of climbing.
Sorry bout that runaway. must be losing it or its cabin fever set in. onto manuals





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