# Hunting Knives, giving design a think???



## ShoerFast

Switching to a summer schedule , I am hoping to spend a little more time with a Hobie of mine, knife making. 

Hopeing to pick some design ideas, what do you like or think would be a handy idea? 


Here is a resent 9.5" Drop Point from a fairly top shelf SS. Stabilized Scrub Oak and a 12oz Veg-Tan std-belt sheath.


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## 04ultra

ShoerFast said:


> Switching to a summer schedule , I am hoping to spend a little more time with a Hobie of mine, knife making.
> 
> Hopeing to pick some design ideas, what do you like or think would be a handy idea?
> 
> 
> Here is a resent 9.5" Drop Point from a fairly top shelf SS. Stabilized Scrub Oak and a 12oz Veg-Tan std-belt sheath.






Nice ....Post the other picture's on here too.......



.


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## ShoerFast

Only took 2 of this knife, what other pictures?


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## gasman

I think he means all the other drop dead gorgeous knifes you made.






I'm not a hunter so please excuse me if this is a totally ignorant idea. This is a #22 scalpel blade. If you could make a blade shaped like this to hold a razor sharp edge, it could be wicked for gutting an animal. Of course it doesn't have the same kind of pointy tip like the one in the picture. When you cut properly with this blade, most of the edge is getting in on the cutting.


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## kevinj

Great Idea.
My dad used to make knives out of old hand files.
Used to file plastic laminate on table tops.
Any ideas with the hand files ???


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## ShoerFast

kevinj said:


> Great Idea.
> My dad used to make knives out of old hand files.
> Used to file plastic laminate on table tops.
> Any ideas with the hand files ???



Files are sometime a good steel, W1 or W2 , some are just case hardened Nitrated surfaces, and don't make that grate a knives, take one to a grinder and compare the sparks to a known good steel before putting a lot of time in them.

If you would like, let me know , I have a lot of old Save Edge horse-rasp that is a high quality steel, I treat it like 1095 , easy to work and hardens very well. I could send you a couple?

A good way to start with an old file, is to bring it camping and toss it into the campfire and let it cool from a good red color, in the ashes over night will make it soft enough to work with most any file, belt sander or grinder, and heat-treat when it's close to done.


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## 04ultra

Found them Kevin.....



.


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## ShoerFast

gasman said:


> I think he means all the other drop dead gorgeous knifes you made.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a hunter so please excuse me if this is a totally ignorant idea. This is a #22 scalpel blade. If you could make a blade shaped like this to hold a razor sharp edge, it could be wicked for gutting an animal. Of course it doesn't have the same kind of pointy tip like the one in the picture. When you cut properly with this blade, most of the edge is getting in on the cutting.



There is a lot to your idea!  

Perhapses one of the best knife makers currently pounding blades is Ed Flower. Take a look at his idea, I was studies his design when I decided to ask my CS Bud's :
















What is on a Surgeon's mind when he grasp one of those? Is that there GP of scalpel?


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## ShoerFast

04ultra said:


> Found them Kevin.....
> 
> 
> 
> .




Steve

Thanks Big Guy! 

I no longer have those pictures  

KevinJ Ultra posted pictures of a knive made from a horse-rasp, that blade won't shave the print from a newspaper, with out cutting throu the paper, but you can shave with it, and it holds a fair edge, next one I make like that will be harder.


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## sperho

Have you made anything with CPM-3V yet? I and some woodworking friends of mine have found CPM3V to be about the best material that we can find for something that has to hold an edge (mortise chisels, paring chisels, and plane irons). I've read of others using them for knives and can provide more information if you are interested. Substantially more tough than A2/cryo-A2 and M2 tool steels with as good as or better wear resistance. Not too bad to work with before tempering, but requires some diligence afterward.


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## ShoerFast

sperho said:


> Have you made anything with CPM-3V yet? I and some woodworking friends of mine have found CPM3V to be about the best material that we can find for something that has to hold an edge (mortise chisels, paring chisels, and plane irons). I've read of others using them for knives and can provide more information if you are interested. Substantially more tough than A2/cryo-A2 and M2 tool steels with as good as or better wear resistance. Not too bad to work with before tempering, but requires some diligence afterward.



It sounds like a fantastic knive steel, I would try some!

Can it be forged or stock removal to work? Were could I order some from?


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## ropensaddle

Nice knives I used to make some when I worked in a grinder shed
making gas pumps in 81. One thing that is a serious help for hunting knife
is a gut hook really speeds field dressing also a good grip as when blood gets everywhere don't want to slip and skin wrong animal  I want to make a flint knife but time to learn and availability
of mother stone sets me back!


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## sperho

ShoerFast said:


> It sounds like a fantastic knive steel, I would try some!
> 
> Can it be forged or stock removal to work? Were could I order some from?



See this article for more info. There has been some progress by the other authors (I'm Spencer) on working with it, so if you think you are going to dive-in, I'll either put you in contact with someone or get the information and pass it along myself.

Edit: another article (again, I'm a co-author)

Edit 2: Crucible also makes other alloys which appear to be suitable for knives and tools. See this site (I don't know him) for his thoughts on a few alloys.


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## SmokinDodge

Really nice work Shoer! 


What makes one steel better than another for a blade? Loaded question I know but I have some knives in the kitchen that won't hold an edge at all (Cheapies) and some that will hold an edge for a while (LEM butchering knives, good for the money), and then there's my Buck 119 that will shave all day long.


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## gasman

ShoerFast said:


> There is a lot to your idea!
> 
> Perhapses one of the best knife makers currently pounding blades is Ed Flower. Take a look at his idea, I was studies his design when I decided to ask my CS Bud's :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is on a Surgeon's mind when he grasp one of those? Is that there GP of scalpel?



This is a #22. #10 is actually the most common, but #22 is same design only larger. It seemed to show better on screen.

This scalpel would be most commonly used to make a skin incision. The surgeon should always plan the entire incision prior to picking up the scalpel. The idea is to make one smooth motion for the entire incision. 

The surgeon does not enter the belly on the first cut but does go through the skin intirely and into the fat below. This is to avoid injuring organs below and to reduce bleeding. You can go all the way through very efficiently. I have seen it done in emergencies and by hacks. It isn't very elegant at all on a live person (but probably looks okay on an animal if you don't mind nicking the gut) 

Back to the single smooth cut idea. You want one cut only because a jagged edge will not heal neatly and little jagged pieces of skin may die, scar, or get infected. You can make curved lines with this scalpel or even curved corners if you are good and still keep the incision one long motion. 

The incision starts a little more with the tip to enter the skin, then the angle is lowered slightly for the rest of the cut. The surgeon holds the scalpel like a pencil, with a finger on top. This would perhaps be the major difference when converting to a much bigger knife. You would have to experinment with the grip if you wanted to be able to copy the type of flat angle the surgeon uses. I would have to look up to see if there is an ideal angle suggested for the surgeon, but I would say as a rule of thumb that the angle is shallow but too flat.

Lastly I would say that the scalpel when used by a good surgeon can be extremely fast. I have seen sure handed surgeons cut almost as fast as the eye. Although that is in reality not all that important as long as the cut is smooth. If too slow however the incision will get jagged.


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## ropensaddle

I have thought chipper knives would make a great metal for
a knife! Have made some knives out of old leaf springs and lawnmower
blades, "files but usually too brittle" I really like case knifes the old school
case the metal was hard enough to hold edge but easy to sharpen very good in hunting situations but I can't stress enough about gut hook invaluable in hunting knife!


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## ShoerFast

sperho said:


> See this article for more info. There has been some progress by the other authors (I'm Spencer) on working with it, so if you think you are going to dive-in, I'll either put you in contact with someone or get the information and pass it along myself.
> 
> Edit: another article (again, I'm a co-author)
> 
> Edit 2: Crucible also makes other alloys which appear to be suitable for knives and tools. See this site (I don't know him) for his thoughts on a few alloys.



Thanks!  

The steel sounds fantastic, not as bad of a price as I thought it would be. 

IMO, Buck has and always will make some of the finest blades passable for the money, this steel will defiantly give a homemade blade an edge, if you could pardon the pun?


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## gasman

ropensaddle said:


> I have thought chipper knives would make a great metal for
> a knife! Have made some knives out of old leaf springs and lawnmower
> blades, "files but usually too brittle" I really like case knifes the old school
> case the metal was hard enough to hold edge but easy to sharpen very good in hunting situations but I can't stress enough about gut hook invaluable in hunting knife!




Okay now I'm talking out of my behind because I'm not a hunter, but just for the sake of debate, I will say I bet I could gut a deer almost as fast you without the gut hook, and not nick the gut. I think the gut hook will however reduce the chance of you cutting yourself, but is one more thing to maintain an edge on.


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## ShoerFast

SmokinDodge said:


> Really nice work Shoer!
> 
> 
> What makes one steel better than another for a blade? Loaded question I know but I have some knives in the kitchen that won't hold an edge at all (Cheapies) and some that will hold an edge for a while (LEM butchering knives, good for the money), and then there's my Buck 119 that will shave all day long.




Not really a loaded question, and I think were I want to be with that , eventually, is to think that is the owner is happy with the performance?

Scharade make a zillion pocket knives, and I think only 2 people were not happy with there's?

Buck has made well into the millions, and I have not heard of any one unhappy, enough that "yet" is not in the equation.

Ed Fowler has built hundreds, maybe thousands, but people brag the daylights out of them,,,,,, winner?

This is fairly a new thing for me, I have not field-dressed an elk with a knife I have made, yet! But have done a lot with a Buck 119 

Ed Fowler gets on line in a chat room every Tuesday eve and shares his ideas and answers novice knive makers like myselfs questions, and gives his detail in experiments, he thinks experimenting is exciting. If he sends a knife out, it is made from 52100 "ball bearing" steel. And about 10 steps in the heat treat. 

Here is one to vote bs or not, as I heard it from Ed ? Ed had made a claim that a good blade can whittle a "rail-road rail in two" he calls it child's play,,,,,,,, we know that a Buck knife can cut a bolt in-two,,,, we just don't try it with ours.


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## ShoerFast

gasman said:


> This is a #22. #10 is actually the most common, but #22 is same design only larger. It seemed to show better on screen.
> 
> This scalpel would be most commonly used to make a skin incision. The surgeon should always plan the entire incision prior to picking up the scalpel. The idea is to make one smooth motion for the entire incision.
> 
> The surgeon does not enter the belly on the first cut but does go through the skin intirely and into the fat below. This is to avoid injuring organs below and to reduce bleeding. You can go all the way through very efficiently. I have seen it done in emergencies and by hacks. It isn't very elegant at all on a live person (but probably looks okay on an animal if you don't mind nicking the gut)
> 
> Back to the single smooth cut idea. You want one cut only because a jagged edge will not heal neatly and little jagged pieces of skin may die, scar, or get infected. You can make curved lines with this scalpel or even curved corners if you are good and still keep the incision one long motion.
> 
> The incision starts a little more with the tip to enter the skin, then the angle is lowered slightly for the rest of the cut. The surgeon holds the scalpel like a pencil, with a finger on top. This would perhaps be the major difference when converting to a much bigger knife. You would have to experinment with the grip if you wanted to be able to copy the type of flat angle the surgeon uses. I would have to look up to see if there is an ideal angle suggested for the surgeon, but I would say as a rule of thumb that the angle is shallow but too flat.
> 
> Lastly I would say that the scalpel when used by a good surgeon can be extremely fast. I have seen sure handed surgeons cut almost as fast as the eye. Although that is in reality not all that important as long as the cut is smooth. If too slow however the incision will get jagged.



I really like this idea, field dressing is really just cutting or separating the things we don't want to put on a horse, or in a truck. Butchering is just cutting or separating the thinks we don't want to eat. 

Using the ideas of how a surgeon uses a knife , combining speed and efficiency is were a (going to make up a shoerisem here) "knive-partner" should start. 

That #22 has a "cut" that is in many or the turn of the century knives, the Green River Trade Knives had it, about every butcher knife , it seems the same profile of a good working tool.


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## ShoerFast

ropensaddle said:


> I have thought chipper knives would make a great metal for
> a knife! Have made some knives out of old leaf springs and lawnmower
> blades, "files but usually too brittle" I really like case knifes the old school
> case the metal was hard enough to hold edge but easy to sharpen very good in hunting situations but I can't stress enough about gut hook invaluable in hunting knife!




Spring steel is about the most used blade steel ever, swards, foils , daggers. Leaf springs are either 1085 or 5160 , there heat treats are close to the same.

Chipper blades are maybe M2 or O2 steel, and would make one h311 of a blade! 

Having never used a gut hook, but have seen them in use, it makes it look like the elk had a zipper to let the guts out. I can see it being a handy item for some, late season tree stand hunters, were your so cold that it would offer a degree of control. 

One of the biggest advantages I see, drop points seem easy for me to run between two fingers to "zip" hide, nothing beats a skinner blade skinning. A gut hook with a semi-skinner blade fills the order for many.

Edit: Case knives have a collector valve, I have one since a kid and field-dressed my first deer with one. There well worth picking up.


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## ropensaddle

gasman said:


> Okay now I'm talking out of my behind because I'm not a hunter, but just for the sake of debate, I will say I bet I could gut a deer almost as fast you without the gut hook, and not nick the gut. I think the gut hook will however reduce the chance of you cutting yourself, but is one more thing to maintain an edge on.


Haaa haaaa yeah you are talking out
your beee hind I have dressed over thirty deer the gut hook is fast and more important helps keep you from cutting the ponch. If you don't know what the ponch is you will when you cut it and while you are gagging I will be rolling out the entrails with a clean cavity!


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## gasman

ropensaddle said:


> Haaa haaaa yeah you are talking out
> your beee hind I have dressed over thirty deer the gut hook is fast and more important helps keep you from cutting the ponch. If you don't know what the ponch is you will when you cut it and while you are gagging I will be rolling out the entrails with a clean cavity!


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## ropensaddle

ShoerFast said:


> Spring steel is about the most used blade steel ever, swards, foils , daggers. Leaf springs are either 1085 or 5160 , there heat treats are close to the same.
> 
> Chipper blades are maybe M2 or O2 steel, and would make one h311 of a blade!
> 
> Having never used a gut hook, but have seen them in use, it makes it look like the elk had a zipper to let the guts out. I can see it being a handy item for some, late season tree stand hunters, were your so cold that it would offer a degree of control.
> 
> One of the biggest advantages I see, drop points seem easy for me to run between two fingers to "zip" hide, nothing beats a skinner blade skinning. A gut hook with a semi-skinner blade fills the order for many.
> 
> Edit: Case knives have a collector valve, I have one since a kid and field-dressed my first deer with one. There well worth picking up.



Good point shoe the thing I like the hook is keeps blade sharp
for quartering and speeds up a little as I get that puppy on ice
and get back on stand after de senting tagged out in two weeks
with bow, so can get back to work and fall turkey hunt.


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## ShoerFast

ropensaddle said:


> Good point shoe the thing I like the hook is keeps blade sharp
> for quartering and speeds up a little as I get that puppy on ice
> and get back on stand after de senting tagged out in two weeks
> with bow, so can get back to work and fall turkey hunt.



You might be the sort that would like a "Wyoming Knive" ? 
There a Little "goerge jetson-ized" but I worked with an Indian / guide that got mad when we hid the thing from him. 








There really like a zipper, but I never learned to use one.






Mrs Arberistsite would not want these pictures here, but here is a link of a predator using one on his food. A really nice buck!


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## ropensaddle

ShoerFast said:


> You might be the sort that would like a "Wyoming Knive" ?
> There a Little "goerge jetson-ized" but I worked with an Indian / guide that got mad when we hid the thing from him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There really like a zipper, but I never learned to use one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs Arberistsite would not want these pictures here, but here is a link of a predator using one on his food. A really nice buck!


Nice I have one
sort of like it but does not have the protruding blade they are good at 
laying it open quick and clean. I used to not care as much on the clean
end but makes for better meat and processing time is shortened. I do
love venison second only to elk. Well pheasant is pleasant but a bird
of a different feather. I do like your knives well made quality do you
use stag sometimes for handles?


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## ShoerFast

ropensaddle said:


> I do like your knives well made quality do you
> use stag sometimes for handles?



Thanks for the kind words! 

I'm not were I want to be yet with my blades yet, getting better with each one. Having an unlimited supply of high elevation Scrub-Oak, really hard stuff and I preserve it with Tung Oil, should last a long time. Surprisingly, these handle have a better grip wet. 

When my quality gets about equal to Buck knives, I could justify a pricer handle, rams horn and antler do seem an option. Makaritia <sp is a nice handle for like a survival style knife. For about $75 bucks, I can get a couple matching slabs of Mammoth Tusk, for someday down the road.


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## ropensaddle

ShoerFast said:


> Thanks for the kind words!
> 
> I'm not were I want to be yet with my blades yet, getting better with each one. Having an unlimited supply of high elevation Scrub-Oak, really hard stuff and I preserve it with Tung Oil, should last a long time. Surprisingly, these handle have a better grip wet.
> 
> When my quality gets about equal to Buck knives, I could justify a pricer handle, rams horn and antler do seem an option. Makaritia <sp is a nice handle for like a survival style knife. For about $75 bucks, I can get a couple matching slabs of Mammoth Tusk, for someday down the road.



Mammoth wow cool I find sheds turkey hunting ans save them have a few sets and a lot of ironwood seasoned how are you tempering sand , oil ? as far as I am concerned you pass the buck mark as nothing beats handcrafted and here every one wants randal made I wish I had saved some knives in my past. 
I once had a hammerbrand American made switch blade from the roaring forties was cool but I was young and needed money so fifteen dollars no knive.


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## ShoerFast

*Here, along the lines of an idea,,,,*

This is a start:






Left to right: Schottish Highland Sgian Dubh (just rought) Skinner/Hunter (forged) , All-a-Round Hunter (90% done) , All-a-Round (forged) Camp-Knife/Hunter (forged)






3 chopping cuts almost through, 1 all the way through a baseball - bat sized Spruce Root, then a paper cut test. and stihl shaves arm-hair, shows good promise for the steel (RTT - rotter-tiller ting)

Edit: Open to critiques , here to pick brains/swap ideas?


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## gasman

Looks great can't wait to see them polished!!!


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## joesawer

They look good. I prefer a straight handle and a tang to help keep my fingers off the cutting edge.
Has anyone used old saw bars for knife blades.


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## bwalker

I have always wanted a Ingram. http://geneingramknives.blademakers.com/
The problem is with my affinity for losing knives I cant justify spending the money.
I hear that if you where to order a Ingram knife today you wouldn't get it until Sept of 2009! 
I am currently using a Gerber Freeman. The steel is a bit on the soft side IMO, but sharpens nicely. Bought in on sale at Wal-Mart for 20 bucks or so.


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## bwalker

Anyone know anything about S30V steel used for knives?


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## bwalker

Another blade design that IMO is really usefull is the #1 Canadian Belt Knife.
http://www.grohmannknives.com/pages/r1s.html


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## Chinooker

ShoerFast said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The steel sounds fantastic, not as bad of a price as I thought it would be.
> 
> IMO, Buck has and always will make some of the finest blades passable for the money, this steel will defiantly give a homemade blade an edge, if you could pardon the pun?



Kevin,

Very nice looking blades. Someday I would like to build knives - not in the cards until after retirement.

I like Buck but I think as far as production blades go Kershaw is my favorite. I especially like there Shun cuttlery knives. I like CRKT also, they have so many designers that I can find anything I want. I have been shopping for a new auto for my field kit; I think benchmades are junk, especially for the price. Also not a big fan on Gerber, the only one that has lasted for any time is my parabellum.

Thanks for sharing your passion.

JAS


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## Sprig

Beauty work there, a great hobby!
I have a couple of friends who make knives and when I worked in the mill the broken arbour blades were sought after (big circular saws), nice steel apparently.
Here is a carppy pic of my feeble attempt at a 'skinner', buddy was chucking out a vintage Premier ('30s-40s) butcher knife he had snapped the end 2" from, it is high carbon razor steel, no idea on the specs. but I made sure to center the origional stamp on the blade. I shaped the blade using my dremmel and dental bits, modified the handle profile to make it more user friendly (trimmed it down, added a thumb dimple to the top and a finger guard on the bottom), for the handle I used African purpleheart (never ever again! iyiyi, took me twice as long to do it than the blade) and used bronze rivets that were angled in to lock the handle on then counter sunk and peened. To seal the holes I used a jeweler's 2 part epoxy mixed with a bit of pipestone dust to give it the aprox. colour. Over-all it feels really good in a large hand (never really used it though) and its, um, really sharp (actually dulled it down a bit after a bud 'tested the edge on his thumb, idiot). Blade is 5 1/4" and its 11" overall. Always on the hunt at garage sales for old butcher/carving knives  When I get a bit more organized I'd like to make more, it is an appealing hobby for someone who likes sharp things but I'd like to concentrate on inlaying the hilts, not set up for real steel work yet  
Btw, I posted some great links last year in a 'Does anyone make their own knives' thread a few master knife makers sites, demascas (sp) steel sources etc. etc., don't know where exactly and my 'search' is messed up as per usual.






 & keep up the good work gents!!

Serge


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## Madsaw

Well here is some pics of a homemade knife I found. I wish I could do this kind of work. Also the point in the pic was found about 50 ft from the knife. In the last few yrs I have found about 6 points in the same genral area as this knife.
Bob


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## Sprig

Madsaw said:


> Well here is some pics of a homemade knife I found. I wish I could do this kind of work. Also the point in the pic was found about 50 ft from the knife. In the last few yrs I have found about 6 points in the same genral area as this knife.
> Bob


Super cool!
I do not think that is a knife, looks more like a broken spear (because it is finished on two sides, may have been an incompleted one), are there any bones lying around there? Could be an old kill, (hm mammoth?). Me loves findin' stuff like that, kudos!


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## ShoerFast

Thanks all for the kind words!

Making steady progress with 5160 steel, have some more precious steels to work with also. 

It appears that the more heat cycles I put 5160 through , the better it cuts, from the first few blades, I got them to go from 12 cuts in 3/8" manila rope, and barley still shave. To the last couple blades that will cut nearly a 3/8" manila rope about 60 times, still shave, and the amazing thing is how few strops it takes to get back in the saddle!

5160, 52100 and eventually L6 will be my primary choice, if I may explain?

Finding that my Buck's (just as a good example of comparison) will cut a couple dozen 3/8" Manila's , but take more then a few minutes to resharpen. Researching this (knowing Ed Fowler sure helps there! ) the bottom line on any steel is grain structure,,,, the smaller more refined, the better. 

I am convinced that a forgable steel, and steel that will keep refining with cold forging and deep-heat cycles will out cut most anything. Forged 52100 has been winning a lot of 'Cutting" competitions, with a few exceptions. 

I'll try to get a couple pictures up:


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## ShoerFast

Sprig said:


> Beauty work there, a great hobby!
> I have a couple of friends who make knives and when I worked in the mill the broken arbour blades were sought after (big circular saws), nice steel apparently.
> Here is a carppy pic of my feeble attempt at a 'skinner', buddy was chucking out a vintage Premier ('30s-40s) butcher knife he had snapped the end 2" from, it is high carbon razor steel, no idea on the specs. but I made sure to center the origional stamp on the blade. I shaped the blade using my dremmel and dental bits, modified the handle profile to make it more user friendly (trimmed it down, added a thumb dimple to the top and a finger guard on the bottom), for the handle I used African purpleheart (never ever again! iyiyi, took me twice as long to do it than the blade) and used bronze rivets that were angled in to lock the handle on then counter sunk and peened. To seal the holes I used a jeweler's 2 part epoxy mixed with a bit of pipestone dust to give it the aprox. colour. Over-all it feels really good in a large hand (never really used it though) and its, um, really sharp (actually dulled it down a bit after a bud 'tested the edge on his thumb, idiot). Blade is 5 1/4" and its 11" overall. Always on the hunt at garage sales for old butcher/carving knives  When I get a bit more organized I'd like to make more, it is an appealing hobby for someone who likes sharp things but I'd like to concentrate on inlaying the hilts, not set up for real steel work yet
> Btw, I posted some great links last year in a 'Does anyone make their own knives' thread a few master knife makers sites, demascas (sp) steel sources etc. etc., don't know where exactly and my 'search' is messed up as per usual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> & keep up the good work gents!!
> 
> Serge



Serge

That is a nice blade, it shows the time, it would sound strange to most, but make perfect sense to others that after awhile, time spent on a blade turns into a knife 'personality' , that blade my friend, has PERSONALITY!

EDIT: I don't know, but a good awnser to time spent in a blade could be, "_Cause you can't eat everything whole_'


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## ShoerFast

Madsaw said:


> Well here is some pics of a homemade knife I found. I wish I could do this kind of work. Also the point in the pic was found about 50 ft from the knife. In the last few yrs I have found about 6 points in the same genral area as this knife.
> Bob




Nice find!  

It brings me a feeling of "clan" to se a blade like that,,,,,, as I think we all have a 6th sense on how to make something like that,,,,,,, I have tried numbious times, and think I just have not been hungery and with out some sort of knife long enought yet?

I have some obsitiun <sp , some black, and some red/black (mogahoney like) if anyone would like to give 'knapping' a try? (i'll send you something that might work?)


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## 046

here's a pic's on my Newt Livesay custom hunting knife. have skinned a number of deer with that blade. 

second pic is a hand made Lile knife that was originally given to Newt Livesay by Jimmy Lile of Rambo fame. both were Arkansas knife makers. 

3rd pic is my EDC (everyday carry) Strider SMF, which skinned it's first deer last season. chopped right through tail bone. flashlight is a solid titanium, ti PD. a custom flashlight made by McGizmo.


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## ShoerFast

joesawer said:


> They look good. I prefer a straight handle and a tang to help keep my fingers off the cutting edge.
> Has anyone used old saw bars for knife blades.



Old saw bars might be a lot of differnt metals from differnt manufactures, but a good long wareing bar is more then likly 5160,,,,, a very good blade steel. 

Here is a 5160 blade, my hand hurts, but it made 100 cuts in 3/4" minillia rope, stropping as needed.


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## ShoerFast

046 said:


> here's a pic's on my Newt Livesay custom hunting knife. have skinned a number of deer with that blade.
> 
> second pic is a hand made Lile knife that was originally given to Newt Livesay by Jimmy Lile of Rambo fame. both were Arkansas knife makers.




WOW!

There both cutters would be my bet,,,,,, any idea of the steel? 

They look to be hand - forged blades?


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## 046

Newt Livesay blade is made out laminated A2 tool steel with three layers. center is of course much harder than sides. 

Not sure but suspect Lile blade is D2... blade is a one off, made for Newt Livesay. got the blade from Newt. made in 70's long before Lile got famous. 

both definitely hand forged blades.


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## ShoerFast

046 said:


> Newt Livesay blade is made out laminated A2 tool steel with three layers. center is of course much harder than sides.
> 
> Not sure but suspect Lile blade is D2... blade is a one off, made for Newt Livesay. got the blade from Newt. made in 70's long before Lile got famous.
> 
> both definitely hand forged blades.



Thanks for the pictures, that is my gold ring! ( i have a long way to go) 

Is there anything you would change? Inside a deer, or around the camp?


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## 046

kind of OT... but somewhat relevant. Tulsa is fairly close to Arkansas, hence the connection. some of the largest gun shows are in Tulsa. loads of local blade makers attend. 

"A review of the American Bladesmith Society’s listings reveals that, of 88 Master Bladesmiths identified, 12 are Arkansans (two are from Missouri). “It’s a well established tradition here,” Jack says. He goes on to observe that his craft is like so many others that still thrive in the Ozarks; it grew out of the time when Ozark settlers had to “do for themselves.”

http://www.ozarksmagazine.com/index.html?p=80


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## gasman

ShoerFast said:


> Old saw bars might be a lot of differnt metals from differnt manufactures, but a good long wareing bar is more then likly 5160,,,,, a very good blade steel.
> 
> Here is a 5160 blade, my hand hurts, but it made 100 cuts in 3/4" minillia rope, stropping as needed.



Beautiful knife, nice picture too. Sounds like you are real close to getting the steel to the point where you want to be. That is no doubt a great knife!!


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## Madsaw

Here is another shot of the knife point. The pencil shows the angle and area the handle was attached. It is completly finished point. The next pics ar enaothe rtype of knif eI found too. This one had no handle. How would you liked to used it.
Bob












//www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55314&stc=1&d=1186454438


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## ShoerFast

*A knife and Fire*



Madsaw said:


> Here is another shot of the knife point. The pencil shows the angle and area the handle was attached. It is completly finished point. The next pics ar enaothe rtype of knif eI found too. This one had no handle. How would you liked to used it.
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> //www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55314&stc=1&d=1186454438



Having the same discussion with Ed Fowler, as we exchanged ideas on what 'has not' worked so far napping flint, as it seems we are equally inept. 

There is a chance that if a person were very hungry and cold, you could be a very good primitive knife builder? God short changed humans , or Darwin was wrong, as humans can not survive with out tools, and reverse engineering never works for long. The knife being the earliest and still one of the more favorite inventions.

Side tracking here for a minute, but a good subject of study would be how many knives were used to process and produce everything that we come into contact with on a daily basices. Take a corn chip for an example, a knife is used cut the soil for the plow (the colter) that turns the earth over, another to more finely prepare the soil for the seed (a field-disk) Another to part the soil for the seed, before the corn even sprouts. How many knifes were used to prepare the rest of our lunch?


What cool pictures! It would be very cool to 'have' to used/depend on a knife like that!


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## rb_in_va

Kevin, you ever tried to make any hammerhawks?


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## ShoerFast

rb_in_va said:


> Kevin, you ever tried to make any hammerhawks?




 

This 'Joe 6-pack' makes (getting started) 'abuser-tools' 

Broke 100 cuts* on a 3/4" manila rope! more then 4X's the cuts of my Buck knives, very happy about that! There just blanks stihl, but cut like nothing I ever seen before! The trick is grain-structure, the finer the better!

Saw something strange, maybe someone has the answer?



The 3 blades that just got out of my back-yard heat-treat (that takes almost a week, deep-cycling) all cut better with a course finish, like 300grit sand-paper finish, as opposed to a leather-strup and buffing rouge on a store-bought knife?

*100 cuts on 3/4 tight twist minila, and stihl shaves arm-hair.


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## M.D. Vaden

I tell my wife that a man can't have too many knives.


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## joesawer

ShoerFast said:


> This 'Joe 6-pack' makes (getting started) 'abuser-tools'
> 
> Broke 100 cuts* on a 3/4" manila rope! more then 4X's the cuts of my Buck knives, very happy about that! There just blanks stihl, but cut like nothing I ever seen before! The trick is grain-structure, the finer the better!
> 
> Saw something strange, maybe someone has the answer?
> 
> 
> 
> The 3 blades that just got out of my back-yard heat-treat (that takes almost a week, deep-cycling) all cut better with a course finish, like 300grit sand-paper finish, as opposed to a leather-strup and buffing rouge on a store-bought knife?
> 
> *100 cuts on 3/4 tight twist minila, and stihl shaves arm-hair.



Maybe it likes a micro serrated edge.


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## ShoerFast

joesawer said:


> Maybe it likes a micro serrated edge.



I think your right!

Been playing around with a few different finishes on the edges , finding that course grain structure steel likes a fine finish, like a leather strop to cut smoothly. And the finer the steel, the courser the finish can be,,,,,, with out going dead right away. 

Not sure if this analogy is spot on, but for the idea,,,,

A jagged glass edge would cut better then a smooth edge,,,,for the material

But a smooth edge on cardboard would out cut a jagged one. 

Were I find the most cuts on think manila rope (3/4" tight/course lay) is right between 200 - 300 grit,,, it just cuts rope well. If I were go go hunting tomorrow morning on an extended outdoor stay, I would give it a 300grit finish and a few strops, just to bust the high spots. Life would be good there.


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## ShoerFast

I want to thank everybody for there ideas so far, been putting them into action, and am ready for criticism. 

Here are a couple blade ideas, the Stage handled blade is my idea for packing elk quarters on horses. Giving it a forward sweep, or an eagerness to enter a cut (like a panicked horse choking it's self on a tangled lead-rope) And point geometry to enter belly-skin easily. 

The second for criticism is more of an All-around Camp/Hunter, just a lot of 'belly' and a natural sweep, it's a very fun knife for making 'fuzz-sticks' for fire starting. 

Both blades are 5" long.


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## ShoerFast

Here is a better look at the Packer , 90% done, and temperalery out of leather.


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## ShoerFast

Here is what I would call a Spike-Camp knife,


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## joesawer

Beautiful work. I really like the shape of the packer blade. I also like the finger protection. Real world use, cleaning big game is very slippery, I can't stand the thought of squeezing the handle for grip and having a razor sharp blade slide into my fingers. 
Personally I would like to see the handle on the packer level with the back of the blade. And maybe a longer shank to reach deeper into the handle.
I don't mean it as criticism, only a difference in preference. You do much better and prettier work than I ever have.


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## ShoerFast

QUOTE=joesawer;746129]Beautiful work. I really like the shape of the packer blade. I also like the finger protection. Real world use, cleaning big game is very slippery, I can't stand the thought of squeezing the handle for grip and having a razor sharp blade slide into my fingers. 
Personally I would like to see the handle on the packer level with the back of the blade. And maybe a longer shank to reach deeper into the handle.
I don't mean it as criticism, only a difference in preference. You do much better and prettier work than I ever have.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Joe 

Yes, the sweep and handle off-set seem much , till it enters a cut. That is the first knife that completed one portion of the 'Masters' test! It will chop a pine 2X4" in half, twice, and still shave arm hair. 

Note #1 , knifes are not for chopping 2X4's , it takes some time. 

Note #2 , If your going to chop a 2X4 , the forward sweep is handy,,, see note #1 , lol

If happiness is a large gut-pile , this knife would be happy alll the time. 

I am still developing ideas, but there is a chance that there would be more need for more of this style? 

I call this a Plain-Jane Hunter: (About 80% (in the white) complete)



http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56300&stc=1&d=1187999456


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## ShoerFast

joesawer said:


> Beautiful work. I really like the shape of the packer blade. I also like the finger protection. Real world use, cleaning big game is very slippery, I can't stand the thought of squeezing the handle for grip and having a razor sharp blade slide into my fingers.
> Personally I would like to see the handle on the packer level with the back of the blade. *And maybe a longer shank to reach deeper into the handle.*
> I don't mean it as criticism, only a difference in preference. You do much better and prettier work than I ever have.



Yes, in the picture of the stag-packer, below it is a blade a young apprintice (horse-shoeing) is working on, I placed it below the packer to show the differance in design. 

Zack, is making that one, he lives with his famely and care-take close to 300 horses, it is also the second largest herd of BLM Mustangs anywhere,,,,,, never a dull moment. Zack at 13 (last year) needed to cut loose 6 horses from rope tangles, and wished for a better knife, come to find out he is a fair pounder,,,,, but yes, could use more tang. 

There is a chance that pinning the handle will salvage the blade (it's a cutter, at over 65 3/4 minilias)


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## joesawer

ShoerFast said:


> Yes, in the picture of the stag-packer, below it is a blade a young apprintice (horse-shoeing) is working on, I placed it below the packer to show the differance in design.
> 
> Zack, is making that one, he lives with his famely and care-take close to 300 horses, it is also the second largest herd of BLM Mustangs anywhere,,,,,, never a dull moment. Zack at 13 (last year) needed to cut loose 6 horses from rope tangles, and wished for a better knife, come to find out he is a fair pounder,,,,, but yes, could use more tang.
> 
> There is a chance that pinning the handle will salvage the blade (it's a cutter, at over 65 3/4 minilias)



It is good to hear that there are some younguns still living real life and not just camping in front of the tv with a video game.
Have you considered welding some more material on the tang?
I can't get you last pic to show.


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## ShoerFast

joesawer said:


> It is good to hear that there are some younguns still living real life and not just camping in front of the tv with a video game.
> Have you considered welding some more material on the tang?
> I can't get you last pic to show.



Had thought about welding something there, but it will work, it is a good wide tang, and using some 2000PSI epoxy will do the trick, we will test it, my bet is we wont get it to brake, before we finshed it. 

From the back of the bronze gaurd, the tang is 2 1/2 inchs, and I think he will like a 3 1/2 inch handle for an 8 1/2" ovral length,,,,,,, the real idea was to make a blade about 6 - 7 total,,,,and you know how that worked!

The pictures were uploading wierd, the 'Hunter" one an east west , and a north south view did not show?


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## joesawer

I am getting one pic of the hunter now, very interesting design, looks like it would be good in the over hand reverse grip.
+1 on the epoxy, its good stuff.
The light came on for me about the blade weight for chopping. I have never done much chopping with a knife.


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## kurtty

bwalker said:


> Anyone know anything about S30V steel used for knives?



yup! Its by far one of the best steels ever invented. The best being CPM S30V. It is far superior then all steels mentions in this thread thus far.
I have a few knives that are cpm-s30v. They are unbelievably hard and strong. You have to sharpen them with diamond stones or it will take you a week to sharpen the knives. VG-10 is another kick ass steel. I keep all my knives Razor sharp, and I only have to sharpen them once a month or so... thats with daily use.

and who said buck knives are good? They suck! The old buck knives where made properly and are some of the nicest knives ever created. But all the buck knives made in the past 20 years are complete crap. crap steel, crap design, there folders are loose. I would NEVER get a buck knife unless it was an old collectors addition. The best knife you can get imo for the price is a spyderco. Benchmade are nice knives too.


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## ShoerFast

kurtty said:


> yup! Its by far one of the best steels ever invented. The best being CPM S30V. It is far superior then all steels mentions in this thread thus far.
> I have a few knives that are cpm-s30v. They are unbelievably hard and strong. You have to sharpen them with diamond stones or it will take you a week to sharpen the knives. VG-10 is another kick ass steel. I keep all my knives Razor sharp, and I only have to sharpen them once a month or so... thats with daily use.
> 
> and who said buck knives are good? They suck! The old buck knives where made properly and are some of the nicest knives ever created. But all the buck knives made in the past 20 years are complete crap. crap steel, crap design, there folders are loose. I would NEVER get a buck knife unless it was an old collectors addition. The best knife you can get imo for the price is a spyderco. Benchmade are nice knives too.




Spyderco is just up the road from here, I have traded them horseshoeing for Spiders in the past. The first 'Native' I got from them has S30V steel,,,,, but will nowhere near out-cut the knives others, and I can make by forging. 

The way I understand it, most of the 'Crucible' steels are trying to match the grain structure, with additional suspended vanadium, that hand-forging, deep-cycling heat-treats and a tinture-of-time will make. But you proved that point, as it has been in the last 20 years that Buck has been using S30V and other 'Crucibles' . 

I have field dressed a lot of deer and elk with mostly Bucks, since 1975 . Buck will sell a knife today for about $20 bucks (pardon the pun), what I think thay have done lately is gone 'box-store' on us?, As they still sell some quality knifes. . 

The next few I experement with will be out of '52100' Ball-bearing steel, mechanacaly reduced 98% of the orginal round-stock (forged from a 6" bar of round stock to a blade-blank) A short term personal goal is to cut 3/4" manila rope 200 times, and still shave an arm hair. Long term goal would be to always be able to out cut Crucible, and fad steels. 

(My Buck 'test' knife will cut more rope then my S30V Spider)


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## bwalker

Pardon my ignorance, but cant S30V beforged like any other Steel?
Buck makes good quality knives and makes chit quality knives sold at Wal-Mart.
One knife I miss was Shrade. The had a weird shaped blade, but they had decent steel IMO. I Skinned hundred of pigs with Shrade knives and they took a licked and touch back up with ease. Which is saying somehting given the toughness of pig hide and the fact that the always wallow in sand/dirt/mud.


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## kurtty

ShoerFast said:


> Spyderco is just up the road from here, I have traded them horseshoeing for Spiders in the past. The first 'Native' I got from them has S30V steel,,,,, but will nowhere near out-cut the knives others, and I can make by forging.
> 
> The way I understand it, most of the 'Crucible' steels are trying to match the grain structure, with additional suspended vanadium, that hand-forging, deep-cycling heat-treats and a tinture-of-time will make. But you proved that point, as it has been in the last 20 years that Buck has been using S30V and other 'Crucibles' .
> 
> I have field dressed a lot of deer and elk with mostly Bucks, since 1975 . Buck will sell a knife today for about $20 bucks (pardon the pun), what I think thay have done lately is gone 'box-store' on us?, As they still sell some quality knifes. .
> 
> The next few I experement with will be out of '52100' Ball-bearing steel, mechanacaly reduced 98% of the orginal round-stock (forged from a 6" bar of round stock to a blade-blank) A short term personal goal is to cut 3/4" manila rope 200 times, and still shave an arm hair. Long term goal would be to always be able to out cut Crucible, and fad steels.
> 
> (My Buck 'test' knife will cut more rope then my S30V Spider)



interesting... That link you gave me (buck website) says: "S30V is the best blade steel available today.".

what if you where to take s30v and hand forge it? would it develope an even tighter grain? or is it that since it is a crucible steel, its not possible?

honestly, I know nothing about knife making. I sure have read alot on knife steel though (as well as sharpenning).


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## ShoerFast

joesawer said:


> Beautiful work. I really like the shape of the packer blade. I also like the finger protection. Real world use, cleaning big game is very slippery, I can't stand the thought of squeezing the handle for grip and having a razor sharp blade slide into my fingers.
> *Personally I would like to see the handle on the packer level with the back of the blade.* And maybe a longer shank to reach deeper into the handle.
> I don't mean it as criticism, only a difference in preference. You do much better and prettier work than I ever have.



Thanks for the input, it really helps to know what others are thinking! 

Awaiting input, but there is a chance that this is real close to what might be my 'standered elk hunter' (?) (I would think a taking an easy inch off a deer blade, and over an inch and a half off of a 'stalker/hiker' would be in order?)

90% done, tested and pictured as etched for 'hammon' or hardning/heat treat,,,,, passes everything I gave it (chopping knotts out of 2X4's and still shaves) 9 1/4" OAL , 3 3/4" Drop-point with a slight belly. 5160 steel, aprox. 60 Rockwell (?)


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## ShoerFast

bwalker said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but cant S30V beforged like any other Steel?
> Buck makes good quality knives and makes chit quality knives sold at Wal-Mart.
> One knife I miss was Shrade. The had a weird shaped blade, but they had decent steel IMO. I Skinned hundred of pigs with Shrade knives and they took a licked and touch back up with ease. Which is saying somehting given the toughness of pig hide and the fact that the always wallow in sand/dirt/mud.





kurtty said:


> interesting... That link you gave me (buck website) says: "S30V is the best blade steel available today.".
> 
> what if you where to take s30v and hand forge it? would it develope an even tighter grain? or is it that since it is a crucible steel, its not possible?
> 
> honestly, I know nothing about knife making. I sure have read alot on knife steel though (as well as sharpenning).



The more I research forging S30V, the more I don't know about it. The way I understand the process, Crucible is trying / achieving the introduction of powdered alloys into the matrix, to promote grain small grain structure. Perfect for the push-button manufacturing as the blank is cast just as the steel will be used. 

Here is a picture of the basic idea there trying to get with the alloys,,,, with out the 'tinture-of-time' (time-money thing) but still a fantastic performer. 











Did't know how thay would show, so i gave a couple angles.

Forging works so well, as the etching shows how the blades cutting edge did not fall victim to the acid as quickly as the spine and back of the blade. Retaining toughness, but keeping an edge. Crucibles are using the best of every world to get the same thing. 

Nobody ever told me S30V could 'not' be forged, but I will admit that can almost understand there 'metal' , it's the 'urgy' about obtaining a smaller still grain structure with a Cucible steel that will puzzle me for some time now. 

One step at a time for me, I have some L-6 from a member here that works at a paper-mill,,,, it shows promise above my 5160 and 52100 steels, someday. As of yet, I have not heard of a steel out performing 'quadruple' hardened, quadrupole tempered , cold-forged 52100 in a hanging rope performance test.


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## gasman

Enjoy the discussion about steel. I don't hardly know diddly about it other than I really appreciate the difference between better steel.

Shoe, When you design your knives do you aim to make it fit your hand and cutting style, or have you tried to fit a large number of hand sizes and styles?


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## ShoerFast

gasman said:


> Enjoy the discussion about steel. I don't hardly know diddly about it other than I really appreciate the difference between better steel.
> 
> Shoe, When you design your knives do you aim to make it fit your hand and cutting style, or have you tried to fit a large number of hand sizes and styles?



Blades do have a jobs, like surgeons knifes.

For me, this is still sort of new, and very rewarding. Forging really dose not have limits or restrictions. 

Keeping the idea of the job the blades needs to do is key. There is a chance that I over-handle knives I intend to personally use, to me, most factory knives do not give you a legitimate handle. To me, I think a 'hunter' blade is to do it's job, like an extension of your hand, not a number on your hand, even when your cold. 
Crawl out of a tree-stand mind-deading numb from cold, from waiting out that perfect shot on a buck, the kind of cold that chills you to the bone. Once I dropped a knife in the snow, to find that it turned handle down in the snow as it stuck into the web of my thumb. Finished field dressing that buck, miserably shivering cold, left-handed (or wrong-handed) ' Life dose not get better! :0)

Or lose the blood trial of a questionably placed arrow in a seemingly shock proof bull elk. Find him 45 minutes latter, on a 75 deg. stinking hot day, bloated. (life, at that moment, could get better) You have maybe 15 minutes to get those quarters hanging in a tree, if your planning on company ever to share those stakes. 

Picking 'hunter/camp/survival knives , as that is more my interest then the fighters/tactual styles. I have my ideas of what I need in a blade, but hope to never limit it to my ideas. 

Eventually, matching a blade to someones ideas and needs, and building extremely useful blades for there jobs at hand, is the gold ring.


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## gasman

Was at "Dicks" today looking for a ball for my son. This thread inspired me to go take a look at the knives. I decided if I found one I liked I might buy it. They had about fifty knives. every one chinese. I guess I didn't buy one.


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## ShoerFast

046 said:


> here's a pic's on my Newt Livesay custom hunting knife. have skinned a number of deer with that blade.
> 
> second pic is a hand made Lile knife that was originally given to Newt Livesay by Jimmy Lile of Rambo fame. both were Arkansas knife makers.
> 
> 3rd pic is my EDC (everyday carry) Strider SMF, which skinned it's first deer last season. chopped right through tail bone. flashlight is a solid titanium, ti PD. a custom flashlight made by McGizmo.



046

Here is what looks like a a Lile - style knife for the next Rambo movie, as in this trailer, about 24 seconds into the clip.




The trailer shows a 61 year old John Rambo forging his own blade, a very 'can-do' design, all business.


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