# Chunking down question



## Greener (Oct 14, 2011)

When chunking down a straight pole (free falling without rigging), such as conifers, do you guys use face/diagonal cuts like in standard felling or do you cut it straight through and push it off? Is diameter of the trunk a main considereration here, or the size of the drop zone, etc? Thanks. (Go easy on rookie boy here.)


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## sgreanbeans (Oct 14, 2011)

Snap cuts on the stuff I can handle, notches on the bigger stuff. Notches, a tag line and sticks in the cut on the BIG stuff. Throwing a couple little twigs in the back cut as you get close to the holding wood keeps the chunk from sitting down on your bar.


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## troythetreeman (Oct 14, 2011)

right, drop zone size is a factor, smaller/shorter blocks i can handle i just cut through and push off, or hang onto/balance, return saw to belt and throw off
longer logs more horizontal i snap cut, if they cant come straight down or are closer to vertical i notch, at vertical or against the lean, i put a tag line on and pull
depends where i need them to be and how much room i have
always be absolutely sure your lanyard isnt in the way


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## mic687 (Oct 14, 2011)

I carry a wege to stick in the cut so it does not close up on me for the bigger stuff and notch the face. Cutting straight through is not always your best bet as you can loose control of the wood or your saw a snap cut is much better as it allows you more control on where the chunk will land. Diameter does play a part because it is hard to snap BIG stuff.


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## tree md (Oct 15, 2011)

Snap cut is the best for chunking. You always want to make a relief cut when you're chunking large pieces. If not you run the risk of the chunk peeling and jerking you into the tree as it comes off. Believe me, I made that mistake when I was a rookie.


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## Greener (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks everyone for all the replies. After reading your comments, I think I am pretty right on. I do keep a wedge for the back cuts on big wood and always nip the holding wood on bigger snap cuts. Do any of you guys free fall long chunks with a deep face cut-with no line on it, if the tree is straight?


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## superjunior (Oct 15, 2011)

Greener said:


> Do any of you guys free fall long chunks with a deep face cut-with no line on it, if the tree is straight?


 I'll do that only if the tree has a lean in the direction I want it to go or small enough for me to push that way. otherwise always a tag line on there. only takes seconds to tie the log off


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## Greener (Oct 16, 2011)

superjunior said:


> I'll do that only if the tree has a lean in the direction I want it to go or small enough for me to push that way. otherwise always a tag line on there. only takes seconds to tie the log off



Got it. I think I am with you on this. Even if it's a straight pole and the face cut is more than halfway through to account for center of gravity, when it falls it will travel quite a ways out on the fall.


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## derwoodii (Oct 16, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Snap cuts on the stuff I can handle, notches on the bigger stuff. Notches, a tag line and sticks in the cut on the BIG stuff. Throwing a couple little twigs in the back cut as you get close to the holding wood keeps the chunk from sitting down on your bar.


 
Blockin snap cuts are grand when they work sweet and PITA when ya think ya got it and it stays put.
An don't ya hate it when you got a nice little twig that fits snug just right, and it falls away with the log :msp_sad: Still its sweet when it stays put and all works like a swizz watch :msp_biggrin:


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## sgreanbeans (Oct 16, 2011)

superjunior said:


> I'll do that only if the tree has a lean in the direction I want it to go or small enough for me to push that way. otherwise always a tag line on there. only takes seconds to tie the log off


 
Agreed, if there is even a slight doubt that you can't move it, put a line on it. Takes the "what if" factor out of it.
Bringing down a log at the end of the day is where a lot of mistakes happen, guys are in a hurry to get done and get outa there, take your time and do it right, 5 minutes of prep can save a lifetime of misery. Easy on the wedges, you don't wanna smash that thing in there, puts alot of torque on the holding wood/fibers, smackin a wedge in there can cause it to let go early, why I use sticks, usually I only use wedges for felling. On really big chunks, I will use a wedge, but I am using it to move the wood, not hold the gap for the bar.


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## tree md (Oct 16, 2011)

Another thing I try to do is always make my cuts at waist level with my lanyard slung low. That way you can stand up in your spikes, get high on the log and get maximum leverage when you're pushing the chunk off.


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## TreeAce (Oct 16, 2011)

When doing the snap cuts , which is an over/under I assume, be sure and pull your saw well back or better yet out and back to your saddle before breaking wood free and pushing. Sometimes the wood can grab your bar and take the saw with it. I did that ONCE. With an 084 while I was working in a bucket. My boss was standing right there to...with HO...really sucked.


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## superjunior (Oct 17, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> When doing the snap cuts , which is an over/under I assume, be sure and pull your saw well back or better yet out and back to your saddle before breaking wood free and pushing. Sometimes the wood can grab your bar and take the saw with it. I did that ONCE. With an 084 while I was working in a bucket. My boss was standing right there to...with HO...really sucked.


 
yes.. 
I found this out the hard way as well..


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## Greener (Oct 17, 2011)

tree md said:


> Another thing I try to do is always make my cuts at waist level with my lanyard slung low. That way you can stand up in your spikes, get high on the log and get maximum leverage when you're pushing the chunk off.



This is good advice. I almost bit off more than I could chew this week when I got greedy and cut a 10 foot chunk (only about 22" diameter luckily). Took a couple tries but I got her pushed off. I really had to stand up high on it though. 

Question, I do try to cut closer to my waist as you mention, but do you find that this makes it hard to see into the kerf (after completing the cut) to be sure how much holding wood there is, because the kerf is so far below eye level?


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## Greener (Oct 17, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> When doing the snap cuts , which is an over/under I assume, be sure and pull your saw well back or better yet out and back to your saddle before breaking wood free and pushing. Sometimes the wood can grab your bar and take the saw with it. I did that ONCE. With an 084 while I was working in a bucket. My boss was standing right there to...with HO...really sucked.



Excellent point. Sounds like that was a big tree. Because I am always tied to the tree, I always pull the saw out first before pushing off the chunk. I have had this happen (pinched bar) when free falling wood though, so I generally don't free fall it. I also use a saw lanyard that will break away before I will, for this reason.


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## Greener (Oct 17, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Agreed, if there is even a slight doubt that you can't move it, put a line on it. Takes the "what if" factor out of it.
> Bringing down a log at the end of the day is where a lot of mistakes happen, guys are in a hurry to get done and get outa there, take your time and do it right, 5 minutes of prep can save a lifetime of misery. Easy on the wedges, you don't wanna smash that thing in there, puts alot of torque on the holding wood/fibers, smackin a wedge in there can cause it to let go early, why I use sticks, usually I only use wedges for felling. On really big chunks, I will use a wedge, but I am using it to move the wood, not hold the gap for the bar.



I like to just push a wedge in behind the saw on large diameter chunks-never pound it in, just push it in enough to keep pressure off the bar so I can get all the way through except to leave an inch or so on the other side. Then the important thing is to pull out the wedge before I nip the other side of the holding wood. Then I can push it off. Of course, the bigger the diameter teh shorter my chunks. What do you think?

Can you explain more about exactly how you use the stick method, though. This could be a good approach for me. Thanks, sgreanbeans.


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## Greener (Oct 17, 2011)

troythetreeman said:


> right, drop zone size is a factor, smaller/shorter blocks i can handle i just cut through and push off, or hang onto/balance, return saw to belt and throw off
> longer logs more horizontal i snap cut, if they cant come straight down or are closer to vertical i notch, at vertical or against the lean, i put a tag line on and pull
> depends where i need them to be and how much room i have
> always be absolutely sure your lanyard isnt in the way



Troythetreeman. How deep do you go on your snap cuts? I know it depends on the size of the wood, but can you give me an idea?


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## deevo (Oct 17, 2011)

Greener said:


> Troythetreeman. How deep do you go on your snap cuts? I know it depends on the size of the wood, but can you give me an idea?


 
Depending on the size of the wood I usually go in the width of my bar or a bit deeper. Then back cut it 1/2"-1" above it. Usually get a nice clean snap every time (depending on species of tree!) Some may do it a bit different but that has worked for me for years. Gives you time to turn saw off safely and have a lot of control of the wood when snapping it off.
http://www.arboristsite.com/attachments/sherrilltree/113111d1256564103-snap-cut-jpg Treeco posted this a while back (hope link works) In his picture he goes half way thru both sides which will work as well. The way I do it and other guys I climb with do as I described and works for us.


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## beastmaster (Oct 17, 2011)

On bigger diameter wood(trunks) I'll often cut tell I see the piece start to set back, then finish from the other side, cutting down in a 45deg. tell the wood sets down.(a wedge comes in handy) Now the chunk is free so I can slid it around or pick it up to throw. Sometimes I will use a small tire iron to pry the chunk up and over with.
Don't try this with small dia. or top heavy peices. You don't want to lose control of a chunk while your lowing your saw. I also sometimes I will have the groundsman put out a cone for me to aim at if its really a tall spar and small landing zone. 
Beastmaster


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## Greener (Oct 18, 2011)

deevo said:


> Depending on the size of the wood I usually go in the width of my bar or a bit deeper. Then back cut it 1/2"-1" above it. Usually get a nice clean snap every time (depending on species of tree!) Some may do it a bit different but that has worked for me for years. Gives you time to turn saw off safely and have a lot of control of the wood when snapping it off.
> http://www.arboristsite.com/attachments/sherrilltree/113111d1256564103-snap-cut-jpg Treeco posted this a while back (hope link works) In his picture he goes half way thru both sides which will work as well. The way I do it and other guys I climb with do as I described and works for us.



Excellent. I have had trouble getting them to break (hinge) so I just went back to cutting most the way through then nipping the outside of the face. So say on 20-30" diameter, would you keep the face cut about 1/2" above the back cut. And how tall of a chunk would you take in this scenario? Thanks again.


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## Greener (Oct 18, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> On bigger diameter wood(trunks) I'll often cut tell I see the piece start to set back, then finish from the other side, cutting down in a 45deg. tell the wood sets down.(a wedge comes in handy) Now the chunk is free so I can slid it around or pick it up to throw. Sometimes I will use a small tire iron to pry the chunk up and over with.
> Don't try this with small dia. or top heavy peices. You don't want to lose control of a chunk while your lowing your saw. I also sometimes I will have the groundsman put out a cone for me to aim at if its really a tall spar and small landing zone.
> Beastmaster



Beastmaster, you're my man!. Come down 45 degrees on the finish cut-that is brilliant. I have had a bar pinch here and there as I was coming straight in when I nipped it. Maybe that is common knowledge to you vet. climbers out there, but that helps. (I know we are only talking big diameter chunks here, can't do this with smaller tops). Outstanding. Thanks.


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## tree md (Oct 18, 2011)

OK, here is how I do my snap cut and why. 

I make a 2" or so face cut into the wood then make my back cut an inch or two above my face cut. The reason I do it like that is I have found that it doesn't take much of a relief cut on the face to do what you want to do and after doing it for 20 years by trial and error I have found the more shallow your face cut the less chance there is of your saw getting stuck in the kerf. And it's quicker than sawing half way though the chunk on your face cut... All you really need to do is zip though the cambium (BAM real quick like) and make your back cut. Cut til the chunck starts to sit down on the bar (pull saw out of kerf and clip to your side) then muscle it over using the proper position and best leverage... But that's just me


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## troythetreeman (Oct 18, 2011)

Greener said:


> Troythetreeman. How deep do you go on your snap cuts? I know it depends on the size of the wood, but can you give me an idea?


 
usually about a third or so
then the top cut i come behind the undercut a 1/2" or so and let er buck
i did say in a different thread to come out once, ahead of the undercut that was a mistake and something i havent done in years... funny how many things you do you dont really think about, you just do them
white oak its better to try and line under and top cuts up, not offset, they tend to be stringy and a small thread can create chaos
anyhow
thats if im just going to let it free fall
certain types of wood you can power through till you have a small thread left without an undercut, it will swing on this and then you finish your cut timed with the swing and you can make them land behind you
practice this where you have a lot of room for error, and i never do it unless im just trying to miss a flower bed or a chain link fence or something, on the off chance it fails its not really a big deal
if its more horizontal and i need to hang onto it and i dont have room for a large swing to rope it or its simply faster i start my cut, once im a good half way in, i lay on it, wrap one arm around the log and finish my cut but for a thin back strap
i return my saw to my belt and then snap the log, breaking the back strap, then throw it where i want it
you need to know you can hang onto it, you need your bar longer then the diameter, you need to be very aware of where you are, your ropes and your saw and you need to be able to get your saw off and hung back on your belt with one hand
its probably one of the more dangerous things i do
in reading some of these posts like treemd, his way sounds a lot safer, im going to try it out
somewhere in between horizontal and vertical you can cut short logs with a horizontal cut and they can be balanced pretty easily while you clip your saw back on your belt


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## Greener (Oct 19, 2011)

troythetreeman said:


> usually about a third or so
> then the top cut i come behind the undercut a 1/2" or so and let er buck
> i did say in a different thread to come out once, ahead of the undercut that was a mistake and something i havent done in years... funny how many things you do you dont really think about, you just do them
> white oak its better to try and line under and top cuts up, not offset, they tend to be stringy and a small thread can create chaos
> ...



This is great info. Thanks. I am with you on the one hand horizontal holds. I try to only do that with small diameter, like the first few chunks after the top is off. Good tips on the snap cuts. This give me some ideas. Much appreciated.


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## Greener (Oct 19, 2011)

tree md said:


> OK, here is how I do my snap cut and why.
> 
> I make a 2" or so face cut into the wood then make my back cut an inch or two above my face cut. The reason I do it like that is I have found that it doesn't take much of a relief cut on the face to do what you want to do and after doing it for 20 years by trial and error I have found the more shallow your face cut the less chance there is of your saw getting stuck in the kerf. And it's quicker than sawing half way though the chunk on your face cut... All you really need to do is zip though the cambium (BAM real quick like) and make your back cut. Cut til the chunck starts to sit down on the bar (pull saw out of kerf and clip to your side) then muscle it over using the proper position and best leverage... But that's just me



Treemd. This is super clear and makes a lot of sense-to just do a shallow face cut. My only issue has been how much hinge wood should I leave. You said one or two inches thickness. I pretty much cut all softwood, with an alder or maple here and there. Is the 1-2 inch rule pretty applicable for me, do you think? Also, if I am unable to push the chunk off due to the holding wood being too hard to break, is the best remedy to come back into the face cut with the saw and nip a bit more out?


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## beastmaster (Oct 19, 2011)

Seems I may be the only one who does this, but when I do a snap cut on a vertical section of tree I over lap the cuts. I do my long cut first as far as I can before it starts to set back, then I come in from the front about a 1/2 in. below the first cut and cut past center of the two cuts a little. That way I'm always sure she'll snap and I won't have to go back and recut some or fight with it to come off. On smaller pieces you can some times cut all the way throu and tilt the saw blade and make the piece go over, then cut that last little piece as it starts to fall. Using this technic you can kind of follow throu with the bar and shoot the piece out like a tennis ball(sort of) Not really sure if thats safe or not, but does come in handy sometimes. Beastmaster


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## derwoodii (Oct 19, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> . Using this technic you can kind of follow throu with the bar and shoot the piece out like a tennis ball(sort of) Not really sure if thats safe or not, but does come in handy sometimes. Beastmaster



When at the top of ma game I could spoon off bits like that almost to a target. A lot then depends upon the species of wood ya cuttin, some timber works well with your snap off style other meh just hangs binds or it see's you coming, over time you get to know them.


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## tree md (Oct 19, 2011)

Greener said:


> Treemd. This is super clear and makes a lot of sense-to just do a shallow face cut. My only issue has been how much hinge wood should I leave. You said one or two inches thickness. I pretty much cut all softwood, with an alder or maple here and there. Is the 1-2 inch rule pretty applicable for me, do you think? Also, if I am unable to push the chunk off due to the holding wood being too hard to break, is the best remedy to come back into the face cut with the saw and nip a bit more out?


 
As long as you cut until the log starts to sit down you should be able to break it over no problem. The only time it has ever been a problem for me is when I have tried to take too big of a chunk at one time and it's too heavy to push over. On large, heavy chunks I will either cut a regular notch or humbolt when needed and or put a rope in the top of the chunk.


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## troythetreeman (Oct 19, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> Seems I may be the only one who does this, but when I do a snap cut on a vertical section of tree I over lap the cuts. I do my long cut first as far as I can before it starts to set back, then I come in from the front about a 1/2 in. below the first cut and cut past center of the two cuts a little. That way I'm always sure she'll snap and I won't have to go back and recut some or fight with it to come off. On smaller pieces you can some times cut all the way throu and tilt the saw blade and make the piece go over, then cut that last little piece as it starts to fall. Using this technic you can kind of follow throu with the bar and shoot the piece out like a tennis ball(sort of) Not really sure if thats safe or not, but does come in handy sometimes. Beastmaster


 
i use my saw to push pieces all the time
as for safe... we climb trees with chainsaws...
so long as youre aware and in control its all as safe as it can be


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## Greener (Oct 20, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> Seems I may be the only one who does this, but when I do a snap cut on a vertical section of tree I over lap the cuts. I do my long cut first as far as I can before it starts to set back, then I come in from the front about a 1/2 in. below the first cut and cut past center of the two cuts a little. That way I'm always sure she'll snap and I won't have to go back and recut some or fight with it to come off. On smaller pieces you can some times cut all the way throu and tilt the saw blade and make the piece go over, then cut that last little piece as it starts to fall. Using this technic you can kind of follow throu with the bar and shoot the piece out like a tennis ball(sort of) Not really sure if thats safe or not, but does come in handy sometimes. Beastmaster



This is one of the most awesome tips I have had with the snapcut, dude! (But I don't get out much.). I definitely like your style and will try this snap cut on my next job because it makes sense. I just had a lot of trouble with the deeper cuts (from the face). But this method seems to reduce the chance of getting stalled when the hinge wood won't break. The unique thing with your cut here, is not that you overlap-I have know others that do that-but that you come in most of the way with the back cut until the kerf starts to close, then you do the face cut lower and with minimal depth. The is just a slightly amended, but better, version of how I have been doing mine. So, easy adaptation for me. Now, the slinging smaller vertical wood over with the bar, I may have to think about. Thanks again, B.


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## Greener (Oct 20, 2011)

tree md said:


> As long as you cut until the log starts to sit down you should be able to break it over no problem. The only time it has ever been a problem for me is when I have tried to take too big of a chunk at one time and it's too heavy to push over. On large, heavy chunks I will either cut a regular notch or humbolt when needed and or put a rope in the top of the chunk.



Ok. Understood. Logically, if the kerf starts to close, the holding wood is weak enough to break.


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## Greener (Oct 20, 2011)

derwoodii said:


> When at the top of ma game I could spoon off bits like that almost to a target. A lot then depends upon the species of wood ya cuttin, some timber works well with your snap off style other meh just hangs binds or it see's you coming, over time you get to know them.



Derwoodi. It's not as simple as hard or soft wood breaks easy or not, right? Is there any rhyme or reason to what works with the snapcut or not, hard, soft?


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## derwoodii (Oct 20, 2011)

troythetreeman said:


> i use my saw to push pieces all the time
> as for safe... we climb trees with chainsaws...
> so long as youre aware and in control its all as safe as it can be



Ha yup under contract pressure saws up tree,s what could possible go wrong eh 



> Derwoodi. It's not as simple as hard or soft wood breaks easy or not, right? Is there any rhyme or reason to what works with the snapcut or not, hard, soft?



I say its more about wood grain structure or fibre length. The long stringy stuff eg pine a soft wood is more often the PITA.
My hard woods down here can often be easy and very predictable. My timbers are not same as yours up there, you'll get to know soon enough. Spur up tie in start chunkin.

How you lanyard your saw is a great help have'in it just right length and friction texture as to allow a control drop release and easy pull back up will be somthin to play with till you find the right one for your hands.


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## Iustinian (Oct 20, 2011)

*Stick method?*



Greener said:


> Can you explain more about exactly how you use the stick method, though. This could be a good approach for me.


 
I sometimes take a couple twigs and stab them into the cut, to prevent the log from pinching the bar - this also works when doing a stump cut, so if you forget to bring a wedge with you, or don't want to cut into the ones you've got you can use sticks instead.


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## Iustinian (Oct 20, 2011)

*Use both climb line and work positioning lanyard when you are "chunking down" logs*

Just wanted to add that in most cases, it is much safer - and often required by ANSI or OSHA to have two attachments to the tree when you are operating a chainsaw. plus its not just safer, its also easier and faster IMO because instead of taking a few steps down on your spikes, you can grab your hitch and just slide down to your next cut. you can tighten your line up and use it as a second lanyard (which can be nice if you have a shorter lanyard thats not working the best for you around bigger wood) but I like to leave a nice amount of slack in mine, just in case something goes wrong I can dump my flipline and swing out of the way on my climb line.


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## beastmaster (Oct 21, 2011)

Iustinian said:


> Just wanted to add that in most cases, it is much safer - and often required by ANSI or OSHA to have two attachments to the tree when you are operating a chainsaw. plus its not just safer, its also easier and faster IMO because instead of taking a few steps down on your spikes, you can grab your hitch and just slide down to your next cut. you can tighten your line up and use it as a second lanyard (which can be nice if you have a shorter lanyard thats not working the best for you around bigger wood) but I like to leave a nice amount of slack in mine, just in case something goes wrong I can dump my flipline and swing out of the way on my climb line.



Excellent advice that can save your life. Beastmaster


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## Greener (Oct 21, 2011)

derwoodii said:


> Ha yup under contract pressure saws up tree,s what could possible go wrong eh
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think I got you about the fibrous wood grain, which is mostly what we have up here in the northwest, cedar, hemlock, fir. That explains my problem. There is an alder or maple here and there, but mostly soft. So, less holding wood on the snap cuts? Good point on the lanyard, mine could be shorter.


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