# Freelance climbers



## Pgtree (May 10, 2003)

How does the freelance climber thing work? Are you guys storm chasers? What are the daily rates, and what does it include?
Are you self insured? and does the IRS veiw you as an independant sub-contactor so that your host comapny will be able to write it off as a business expense?

As a host comapny what do I need to provide for you? Housing? vehicle?


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 10, 2003)

I was using the term "freelance" for a while, but most associat it with the drunk cash job worker. I'm using "subcontracting" now.

As with any valid company, we pay our taxes and carry a general liability policy. I have 1,000,000 in coverage. I can supply the certificate and a IRS form W-9 after contracts are negotiated.

Different guys will work different ways, I will charge by the hour or by the day depending on what is being done. Some contracts will ave travel, food and lodging built in, some have a rate that allows me to cover it.

Most of us bring our own basic climbing and rigging tools along, since we often find the client does not have what we like. (I hate 3/4 inch rope for normal rigging  ) I also have GRCS which i use at least once a week.

My most common method of billing for storm work is to set a daily minimum and then have an overtime rate for over so amny hours per day. Only realy big storms during the regular season will pay off well after the expences of a long trip.

I've been out to the boulder area twice and Evergreen once to help finance other trips, and my average cost to get there and back is around $1100 with the stay and all included.


----------



## treewhisperer (May 11, 2003)

john paul,

how does this usually work for you, do you have a network of people you know all over the country and they call you when they are need of a reliable climber/tree worker?or do you just get calls out of the blue from people who got your name from someone?

what do you do when your in your local area? do you work for yourself (advertise and bring in work) or do you subcontract for other companies there?
do you ever have people sub-contract to you?
this interests me many because i have mainly only done tree work here in colorado( i trained with a company in western n.y. in high school, but that was a while ago) and think it would be cool to go some other places to see how things are done and learn different tecniques. i would be psyched to work with some of you guys that post on here for next to nothing to see tree work in a different place, and learn (maybe climb some "exotic" tree that doesnt grow here).you can only work on so many sibo-elms before you go nuts!!


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (May 11, 2003)

When this topic comes up, about once a month, I always have to stick my two cents worth in.
The freelance guys always talk about liability insurance, which is fine even though the contractors liability insurance could surely cover anything that happens, but the most likely major thing that needs to be insured is the climbers arse!
Most people have some type of health insurance that could cover injuries, if you didn't mention you were being paid when you got hurt, but what about disability?
Even if you have some type of disability insurance, like the health insurance, it likely won't cover you if you are working.
It seems like the only way around this insurance problem is to incoroprate and have the corporation get worker compensation on you. Otherwise, you're just another fly-by-nite competing with legitimate employees and driving prices even lower, by gambling your future.


----------



## ORclimber (May 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> * Otherwise, you're just another fly-by-nite competing with legitimate employees and driving prices even lower, by gambling your future. *



I think that's a bit harsh Mike. As long as a subcontractor is billing out at or above what an employee would cost they aren't driving costs down. It's legit to operate as a corporate officer or sole proprieter without workers comp.(at least here) Your right about the gambling, but that's up to the individual.

I've been sub-contracting to a couple tree services, as well as running my own. One I do work for is a one man show like me, so we subcontract back and forth depending on who sold the work... we bid to pay eachother $50 per man hour. The other co. I sub for is a 2 man crew that hires me to do big trees or stuff around power lines, I charge him 40hr. for climbing and $50 hr. if I bring big saws, a chip truck or grinder.


----------



## TheTreeSpyder (May 11, 2003)

Mike Harsh?



your not saying that to him like..........
Happy Mutha's Day are you?????!!

Sometimes i am a freelance knight;
or whore-able climber.

$10 /hr. extra for chipper and saws sounds like a real 'buddy' deal to me!

:alien:


----------



## ORclimber (May 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder _
> *
> 
> "$10 /hr. extra for chipper and saws sounds like a real 'buddy' deal to me!"
> ...


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (May 11, 2003)

Orclimber, you kinda make my point. See, if I could somehow magically force you to have full insurance, you couldn't work for $40 an hour, you would need to charge around $60 to make the same pay. You keep the tree industry rates artifically low. Now the guy who doesn't gamble, has to figure out how to compete with your rates.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 11, 2003)

I'f I'm billing $30 per hour then that is like an employee getting paid $20 per hour. I'm a sole proprietor, even if I were an LLC how does that make it different from the guy who hires me? None of them carry W/C on themselves. Does Tim?

Here in the MKE area the 3 guys I regularly work for also work with each other from time to time. Or say Jerry Smith runs his log truck for Greg Good...

I see W/C as a regressive tax that holds down the wages of skilled people, because it is 22.14% of payroll. The only way I can get paid the way I want is to assume the risk myself. That is my choice.

If I were billing the customer 30 and hour I can see how that would hold the prices down, i cannot see how it hurts when I bill it to Dave Nichols.


----------



## ORclimber (May 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> * you couldn't work for $40 an hour, you would need to charge around $60 to make the same pay. You keep the tree industry rates artifically low. Now the guy who doesn't gamble, has to figure out how to compete with your rates. *



I think I'm in the ballpark. I don't pay myself $40 an hour so I wouldn't have to pay $20 in WC, and the guys I work for try to bill me out for more than they pay me. I'm not the cheapest guy in town, somewhere in the middle. I'll bet all tree services start off "gambling".


----------



## mrtree (May 11, 2003)

Hiring a subcontractor, or working as one (at least as a tree climber) is pretty questionable. First it is doubtful a freelancce climber can meet the legal requirements of a subcontractor. For example, subcontractors generally set their own schedules, use their own equipment and are independent of the hiring agency. This is almost always not the case with a climber who takes a job at the company's schedule and must work with the company's groundmen. In jurisdictions that require a clear seperation, freelance climbers are not likely to meet the criteria.

Next who is responsiiblke for the job. Will a frelancer take the rap and monetary lose if something is damaged etc? Talk to the insurance company and see if they will cover a freelancer working for a company who may or maynot have (public liability) insurance.

How do you prove due diligence has been taken if the freelance climber has not been put through a documented training and experience program with the company? If a free lance climber is injured or killed will the companies insurance cover the freelancer? I am willing to bet the only ones that will be happy will be the lawyers.

The more I think about the use of freelancers I see the need to hire tham as an employee even if it is one day here and there. Hiring them with all the paperwork, deductions etc. amy be the safest way for both the company and the freelancer to be protected.

Michael


----------



## Greg (May 11, 2003)

Freelance climbers keep cost low???? No way! Go to any tree service where the climber is not the owner and ask how much they make. They don't make the 2-300 per day that freelancers make, and never will (in most cases).
If a responsible climber like Brian or JPS come with their own liability insurance I see no need for them to have WC coverage. As OR mentioned a sole proprieter can elect to exempt themselves from WC coverage. 
I've never know a freelance climber to get paid by the hour, just daily rates. A day being about 6hrs of climbing.
Greg


----------



## TheTreeSpyder (May 11, 2003)

i think that is a pretty reasonable point that Brian has; that if a climber can specialize and follow his passion exclusively with all their energies; they can then lend all that to another service for a price. Doing more polished work, that they are more in to.

Perhaps other proffessions do likewise?

Or something Like that

:alien: 

OrClimber; i thought you were bringing saws for everyone to use for $10!!! i prefer my own saws and lines for my use too! Sometimes if working for a few guys, i just disarm the tree to be dropped. i only drop it; if they don't think it will fit in box and clear everything, and i elect to drop rather than stay up to cut it till where they are comfortable felling it.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (May 12, 2003)

My climber freind who I wrote about a few months ago, the one who's climbing rope came off a small stub as he descended a topped out spar and caused him to fall the last 10 feet or so, is still in a cast. He has had some infection problems, and a screw tip along with a sharp bone edge has caused a hole to form in his skin. At some point he will need skin grafts to cover the now open hole in his skin. I don't think he'll ever climb, I hope I'm wrong, but at least, it will be months before he can work.
He has a home, a stay at home wife, two small kids. What would he do if he didn't have that coverage?

Brian's point is well taken. It's a good thing to do what you want. I think you need to cover yourself though.


----------



## TREETX (May 12, 2003)

Like all threads, this one is moving rapidly from the original question.

If you provide more than 60% of an individual's income, they are an employee, not a subcontractor.

I think you can get around the time thing. No, you cannot tell a sub when to be there legally but you can legally tell them when it has to be completed by. The 2nd part covers the first.

Mike, insurance is a gamble, I think it should be up to the disgresssion of the climber in matters that cover his a$$ but mandatory in matters that cover the contactor or client.

I am sorry about your friend, but things would be different with no family right?? In relation to insurance, oppt costs change when family and dependants are involved. For another way he could have covered himself, see the thread on EDUCATION.

Personally, I don't see how you can regularly use a hired gun and make money. In any biz, 2 times cost = doors open , 3 times cost = minimal profit, 4 times cost = profit. This is a biz like any other. Instead of selling widgets, I buy and sell man hours. Many of them are my own manhrs. Trick is to sell higher than you buy.

For a $50/hr climber, I need to make $150-$200/hr to make it worth while. Sometimes it is, but it has been well over a year since I used a gun.


Insurance is robbery in America. For example, identical liability or health covereage is cheaper in other countries because of the lack of lawsuit abuse. The system in America is broken.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 12, 2003)

I have fixed/had fixed small damaged items, I carry a $1,000,000 general liability policy. No claims so far (touch wood).

I have seen the leagal definitions for an independant contractor. By maintaining several clients and travling out of state regularly I show that i set my own schedule. We maintaine verbal contracts and I bill out $xxx for a defined job, not as xx hrs of labor. 

Many of the jobs are done with the contractor telling me he estimated X hours and will pay me for that if I get it done in less, which is usualy the case.

I will also break off an equipment rental for some who have a W/C policy that counts my billed work as payroll.

I maintain and use mostly my own tools, common exceptions are pole saws and chainsaws larger then my 020t.

I pay my own income tax and self employment tax.
I could be out there operating as a lowball indiependant company, but I don't want to do that and like working with the people I do.

About the only time I charge $50 or more is when I'm doing storm work or traveling to a rich comunity where the company wants my level of pruning/climbing skills.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 13, 2003)

Here is the way it seems that Nate looks at things. He wants to make 3X payroll expence to show a decent profit.

For him the threshold of excpeptable employee pay is around $15 assuming 50% payroll cost. If he paid a climber $20 then he would have to bill out at $90 to show the proffit he wants. At 15 he needs to bill out 67.50.

I cannot se a monster tree getting taken apart and hauled off in a half day without several trucks and people, but lets say there are 3 people on the ground, each making that 15/hr. that would be mean he has around 270 in payroll costs alone


----------



## TREETX (May 13, 2003)

Brian, I do not debate the viability of your service. Your ability to make a living is proof of its viability. 

I just question a company that has to hire a gun on a weekly basis. Makes more sense to hire a decent climber.

Kind of like a company that has to rent a chainsaw daily.

I have really just used a gun once. A massive cotton wood over a house 2 years ago. I got 2400 for the tree and paid the gun $275 to put it down.

JPS - your math is pretty correct. Let me adjust it. Different conversation for a different thread. $15/hr x 3 = $45 or $15/hr x 4 = 60 lets just avg at $50.

Seems reasonable


----------



## Tim Gardner (May 13, 2003)

A freelance climber can fill in if a company’s climber gets fired, injured or quits. In my area if a tree service’s schedule gets pushed back for a few days the clients near the end of your list will sometimes call another company because the want the work done fast. If you can have a qualified climber on the job the next morning there are no lost jobs. I have seen it take my father a week to locate a climber.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 13, 2003)

If I were you I would not broadcast that type of info. 

That is a whole other ethical debate. Taxes, unemployment compensation....

An ethical problem is what MR has with the equation, he is not comfortable with any climber assuming the risk of disability on his jobsite.


----------



## mrtree (May 13, 2003)

I do not doubt that in some situations a hired gun can make a company money and certainly they can help to get the backlog cleaned up. My concern is not really ethical as much as it it making sure the ass of the workers and company are covered. If you bring in a hired gun and pay them as an employee (even if they are $20-30 per hour) rather than as a subcontractor, I believe you may be saving yourself huge, legal, regulatory and financil headaches. If you run a company with public liability, workers compensation, business numbers, tax numbers etc. then you probably should pay the freelancer as an employee and assure yourself that they are covered if there is damage done or the freelancer is injured.

For example, you have groundman and freelancer who have never worked together. During rigging damage is done, who is responsible and who will pay? Do you want to argue between you and the freelancer? What happens if its major damage, your insurance says sorry the freelancer is a subcontractor and needs to pay, the freelancer's insurance says sorry you are making a living working directly with a company and your (freelancers) coverage is therefore not in force. I think the homeowner, municipality or utility does not care, they want the damage fixed and fixed now. Have you got the money?

This is but one problem. I think we can imagine the other legal and regulatory problems that could arise.

Michael


----------



## Reed (May 13, 2003)

Lot's of details fer sure.

Litigation may null and void any contract anyway - like the releases signed before bungee jumping or skydiving, there's always a way around them. 

I don't see too many problems with subtracting a freelancer to fill a time void - true, the crew's not used to him (or her), but it could get the operator out of a pickle - and they certainly can't afford to keep him long on the pay scale the climber needs to keep his independent status. 

I enjoyed working with my pine-climber helper back east, but somehow the boss and him had terrible chemistry - unresolvable. He got fired and I was sorry to see him go (work load on me doubled) and after a few weeks when my shoulder couldn't take the pressure, he hired a hired gun - for five days. Sure, it was costly but we didn't loose the contracts pending and the golf courses and city jobs wouldn't wait, so there was no choice. He wasn't that good though - he cut two of my climbing ropes and broke my 020T casing. Still, I was glad for the help.


----------



## rahtreelimbs (May 13, 2003)

Up here in Pa. the type of freelance climbing that Brian and John Paul Sanborn do is popular here. Some guys just don't want the hassles of dealing with crews and equipment that is not theirs. From the climbers that I have spoken with they are successful and happy working this way. The only bad thing is when the winter months come, work can get thin.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (May 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *I am a legitimate independant contractor with licenses and insurance, I pay my own taxes. *



How do you cover yourself for disability(workers comp.)?


----------



## TREETX (May 14, 2003)

Brian - I explained my point, I think you agreed. For niche situations where another man is needed. I question the viability of any company that does not have a competent, proven climber on their staff. One that relies on ladders and power pruners.

Again, I do not question the value or viability of the service you provide.

MM - what is up with the WC paranoia?

Who is responsible in an accident, the contract climber or company ground man?? That is a no brainer. Reguarless of contracts, whoever has the deepest pockets.


----------



## rahtreelimbs (May 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *I'm now grossing over $1000 per week and working less hours. *



Brian,

Glad to see that freelancing is working well for you. 


My climbing skills are not good enough to for me to make this kind of money.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (May 14, 2003)

Treetx, to answer yor question, do you have auto insurance?
If I told you that MPG doesn't mean anything to me, 'cus I save money by not insuring my vehicals, would that help expain?
In WI, we pay around 30% of payroll to WC. Find a way to cut that out, and you can get all kinds of work. 
I'm in the unfortunate position of working for a legitamate business, everything else equal, how can my employer comptete with those who skip insuance and/or tax costs? 
Take a $1000 job, WC cost around $100, taxs about another $100 cost, expenses to run legitamate and full time, another $100. What customer in their right mind is going to pick the $1000 bidder when there is a $700 bid?
Day after day we get screwed out of good jobs from good people because of fly by night "tree services" and the money they save the customer by skipping the "goods".
We have plenty of work to keep going, but if the playing field was level, we could charge and make more.
Other trades make quite a bit more than arborist do, and one big reason is what we are talking about here. You always hear the critism about the guy with a pick-up truck and a chainsaw outbidding the big company, but what they are really saying is, the guy without insurance/tax, outbidding the legitamate business. I guess what I want to see is a level playing field/ licensing for arborists, like plumbers or electricians.
Brian's proud of 1000 per week, which is good pay, but we're talking about a skilled professional in his trade for twenty years just craking $50,000 and self insuring(kinda) with no benifits. Sadly, he could make more at McDonald's.


----------



## TREETX (May 14, 2003)

You make good points.

What is MPG?

Liability auto insurance covers other people - mandatory. Comprehensive covers me - my choice. That was my point about insurance. 

W/C covers the worker not the client - right??

You make us smaller companies sound like hacks or lacking legitimacy for not having W/C. Huh?? I LEGALLY don't have to carry it because I have less than 5 employees. That means my A$$ is not covered. That is my gamble if you want to call it that but it in no way make me any less legitimate.

You are correct about the pay. But who is in this for the money?? It is not a get rich at all sceme. It is a labor of love or some of the most thankless work on the face of the planet. If I was working solely for the monetary compensation involved, you would call me Dr. Nathan.

Take care

Nate


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (May 15, 2003)

MPG/miles per gallon, I guess it did make too much sense but that's what i was thinking.

If your hospital and recovery bills go to the hundreds of thousands, or millions, you, or your uninsured workers, could sue the homeowner. Do the homeowners know this? Say you don't sue, where's that money comming from, especially if you can never work again?

WC laws vary state to state. 

It is thankless, but it shouldn't be, nor should those that choose this somewhat high risk field, be almost forced to work underinsured, while workers in almost every other field, have full benifits and insurance. 
It doesn't make sense to be uninsured in such a high risk occupation.


----------



## TREETX (May 15, 2003)

MPG made sense but your attempt at an analogy of some sort was a complete failure.

I operate under the letter of the law when it comes to insurance. I inform homeowners what I do/don't have. $1000000 in liability. That makes them feel pretty secure. If not, they are free to have another company do the work. That in no way make my co any less legitimate. 

Big companies pay a lot where you are but around here a climber for a big green company is lucky to get $12/hr. A foreman only $14-15. I don't feel sorry for the companies at all. They legally have to carry WC here and by doing so net the lion's share of 20K+ contracts. Boo hoo.

I refuse to live in this uniquely American mindset of sue, sue, sue, and I refuse to live in fear of it. I also don't have a fortune to protect.


----------



## geofore (May 16, 2003)

*Find a climer?*

What, they don't have a union hall you can call near you or are you unwilling to pay union scale?


----------

