# Help me find a steel carabiner, please



## NickfromWI (Jun 21, 2004)

Hello Gentlemen (and any of you lurking ladies)-

I am looking for some auto-locking steel carabiners. Preferably something without the little notch that I hate (the notch that catches the pin on the gate). 

Any suggestions?

love
nick


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## arboromega (Jun 22, 2004)

what do you want to use it for?


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## wct4life (Jun 22, 2004)

Petzl makes one w/ the key lock style.


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## dbeck (Jun 22, 2004)

I use the ones from kong and omega and I dig both!


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## NickfromWI (Jun 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by wct4life _
> *Petzl makes one w/ the key lock style. *



They do? Where do I get one!?!?


I am working on a ropes/challenge course right now. I made a double ended lanyard for moving about the cables in the trees. You clip to one cable, walk to the end of it, then clip the other cable then unclip the first cable (so that you are always clipped in). The cables, bolts, etc are all made of steel. The aluminum carabiners get worn down quickly.

I will go look for the steel petzl now. Thanks!

love
nick


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## wct4life (Jun 23, 2004)

Nick, they have them in the sherrill catalog.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 23, 2004)

Wow, you mean they sell tree working stuff at Sherrill? You mean carabiners and everything? 
That's a good idea! I mean then they send their cataloge out to so many arborists, it makes sense to sell arborist supplies.
I wonder if Baileys has thought of this yet.


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## NickfromWI (Jun 23, 2004)

Thanks guys! You're the best....especially you, rocky. 

FYI...the Sherrill ones (that I checked out a while ago) .....the Petzl FDC Triact are not to my liking. They are HUGE. I don't want to pay the higher price for a larger carabiner that I don't need.

Again, thank you Rocky.

love
nick


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## Stumper (Jun 23, 2004)

Nick. I hope you find precisely what you want. I would like to remind you that you asked about steel auto locks preferably without the notched latching system. YOU DIDN"T SPECIFY SIZE OR COST! Perhaps you should search the 'biner manufacturer websites, find what you consider to be the best and come tell us about the perfect 'biner for snapping onto the cables at your ropes course. That is imformation we all desperately need.::alien:


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 23, 2004)

Look at the ones made by ISC. Google will help you find a vendor. I know that one of their larger industrial vendors is in Winona MN. I can't recall the name right now. 

Tom


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## Nathan Wreyford (Jun 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *The ISC are of the pin lock type which he specifically does not want.
> 
> Heck, even Lovey cannot make up his mind what he wants. *



At least he knows what he doesn't want


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## NickfromWI (Jun 23, 2004)

I get the feeling I am being picked on.


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 23, 2004)

A tad homophobic there, Treeco?


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## Mahk (Jun 23, 2004)

Note that the letters that are next to the photos of the 'biners don't correspond to the letters in the spec chart. The photo's of the Petzl 'biners are labeled 'F' and 'G', but they are items 'D' and 'E' in the spec chart.

Jeez Sean, who reviewed the catalogue? Another blooper to fix before the 2005 goes to press.

Mahk


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## wct4life (Jun 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *Wow, you mean they sell tree working stuff at Sherrill? You mean carabiners and everything?
> That's a good idea! I mean then they send their cataloge out to so many arborists, it makes sense to sell arborist supplies.
> I wonder if Baileys has thought of this yet. *



Hey Mike, If you don't get the Sherrill Mag, I'll be more then happy to send you mine. And yes, they sell all sorts of tree related items. Carabiners, ropes, saddles, books, etc..... 
As for Baileys, I never heard of them. Maybe if you sent them your idea, they'd be really greatful


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## Frans (Jun 23, 2004)

*Fall arrest vrs. work positioning*

Nick
You are setting up a ropes course. this means traversing cables, climbing up rope ladders, sliding down angled cables, etc. 
Really what a rope course is set up to do is bring climbers up into a tree using preset rigging.
For the most part, these are Fall arrest systems.
The industry has complete set ups for this.
Steel double locking snaps, Delta rings (webbing or steel (by the way steel delta links set between the shoulder blades have been shown to break the users back if they take a direct fall onto their back- webbing is better)). The senario you described uses a set up commonly used by rebar workers. They have two lanyards and clip and unclip to move about on walls of rebar such as freeway structures. The primary attachment is the delta link behind the shoulder blades.
Try a local industrial safety supply store you will be amazed at what they have.
Mixing two disciplines and the gear used is tricky and should be done with full knowledge of both trades. You mentioned that alum. biners wear out running on a cable- that is a great example.
Tom Dunlop has done a geat deal of work with the standards and they have defined these two trades very well.
climb safe, especially with new climbers
Frans


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## Stumper (Jun 23, 2004)

Poking? DAN!


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## arboromega (Jun 23, 2004)

nick's posts always end up being the funniest.


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## NickfromWI (Jun 23, 2004)

*Ropes course*

Frans- The ropes course I am working on is one that is already set up. I am an instructor here (this is my fourth year, actually). We have to comply with the ACCT guidelines, which are the "ANSI" for the Assoc. for Challenge Course technology. Where I am is a quite rural area and I don't even know how far it is to a store that would sell stuff like this.

I think David at OK Arbo Supplies might be able to hook me up....we'll see!

love
nick


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 24, 2004)

Rocky,

"No wonder the public thinks so poorly of arborists. Half of us cannot read and comprehend Lovey's question..."

Speak for yourself 

Go fly back in your nest for a minute and calm down. Before you go spouting off about the ISC biners that Sherrill sells you should look at the ISC site and see that they make other biners too. 

Denny now has a quad lock biner. When I visited with him last year he was talking about a biner gate that has a locking mechanism like nothing on the market. It will be interesting to see what it looks like in its final form.


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TreeCo _
> *Not me. Just poking fun.
> 
> Dan *




I guess you forgot the smilie...


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## geofore (Jun 24, 2004)

*caribiners/pin*

Nick, do you want the pin gone or changed like the difference between Omega OP76S3 (53kn) and the Austrailpin CE0511 (35kn) ? I know they are twist lock but is the way they clip, the change you want in the notch setup? I think Austrailpin makes an autolock that has what you're looking for.


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## NickfromWI (Jun 24, 2004)

Rocky, what the heck are you talking about? I knew sherrill doesn't have the carabiners that I want. I have their best one (and I mean, "best suited to my needs") and I don't like it. It's made by ISC. 

In the past couple months, I've purchased a lot of things at sherrill...just about 800 dollars worth, which might not be lot to many people, but it's a lot to me.

So, ummm. I thought that I made my desires clear. You can see in it what you want. And maybe you should not be so closed minded about things that you don't know about. 

Tom, are you talking about the locking carabiners that have two barrels on the gate, pull one down, and push the other up or something like that? If so, they are AWESOME!!!!!! I can't wait for them!

Rocky, if you have something positive to add to the conversation, please share. Otherwise, shhhhhh. I know that there are people here who have more options available to them than just Sherrill. Rocky, I already know what sherrill has. They were the first place I looked. I looked a few other places as well. I couldn't find what I was looking for, so I thought I'd bring it here. Except for your comments, I am glad that I did ask the question. It looks like one of our members knew exactly where I could get what I was looking for. Thanks guys.

love
nick


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 24, 2004)

If anyone wants to learn more about ISC, take a look:

http://www.iscwales.com/index2.htm

Most of their biners are no-snag design.

Nick, you're right, that's the one that I saw. Pretty cool. Denny had come up with another design just a few days before I was there. He was on a plane and came up with the idea. We got to see the "cocktail napkin" design. Knowing the skills and talents of the folks at ISC I'm confident that we'll see that on the market soon.

Tom


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 24, 2004)

Hey Nick, how about those double locking steel rope snaps?


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## NickfromWI (Jun 24, 2004)

Mike, those work well, but I haven't found a steel one that I like. The buckingham ones that SHERRILL  makes are not quite to my liking. I think I want to stick with the 'biners.

I LOVE no snag carabiners like the petzl ball-locks. I wish everyone would move to a similar design. I wonder what the holdback is. It must either be cheaper, easier to make, stronger, more reliable, or something along those lines to make the type with the pin. Otherwise we would no longer have them.

Anyone know the answer?

love
nick


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 24, 2004)

For frequent opening and closing, ropes snaps are better than carabiners. That's what I like on my lanyard end and climbing line end because I open and close them so often. In other less used applications, the carabiner is good. 
I do know what you mean though, about rope snaps snagging on the gate when you try to slide it down a rope.


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## a_lopa (Jun 26, 2004)

does anyone use self locking steel clips?i only use stubai screw gate.


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## Stumper (Jun 26, 2004)

Aussie, Screw locks to not meet the standard for tree climbing here. (Of course rock climbers and recreational tree climbers use them and 1/4 turn auto locks happily.) I think that the rational behind forbidding screw gates for workers is about people forgetting to lock them-since a screw gate has always seemed quite secure to me.


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## Frans (Jun 26, 2004)

If you read the ANSI rule book you will see that screw gates are not forbidden in tree work because of the risk folks will "forget" to screw them down (although this is certainly a risk), but because they can unscrew themselves and open from the pressure/rubbing of a rope or other object.
My understanding is: Tree work= work positioning, Rock Climbing= Fall arrest.

I am surprised Tom Dunlop is not chiming in with this disscussion.
Frans


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 26, 2004)

Nick and I have talked off-line 

I'm getting weary of the spraying that goes on here with regularity. I do read almost every day though. 

ACCT has their own set of standards for ropes courses. Some of their protocols are VERY different than what arbos use and visa versa.

In case anyone hasn't read this excellent article, you should.

This was first posted on TB about a month ago. This is one reason that it pays to check in once in a while. 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/hsl_pdf/2003/hsl03-18.pdf


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## a_lopa (Jun 26, 2004)

all my karibiners are self locking with screw gate.i can remember when black diamonds were all the rage.IMO self locking gates are more trouble than good with chips/muck getting in mechanism and not completely locking.alloy is a no no, its to hard to pick up a hair line fracture.steel clips come in handy when they are no longer needed for climbing,ive been using one on a spliced 1/2 inch work line for a number of years for lowering smaller limbs.its only just been retired


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## Stumper (Jun 26, 2004)

Selflocking with screwgate? Do you mean that the gates close by themselves( that is standard on every'biner I've seen) and then you screw them down to lock or is this a latching mechanism unlike any others I've seen? I'm familiar with : non-locking (the gates do close themselves but simple pressure opens them again) ;1/4 turn twistlocks (auto-locking) Those are slick to operate and great for their intended rock-climbing applications but twigs can open them. ; Ball locks-Petzl' unique tri-acts.; Triple locks -the ones that lock on closing and require you to slide the barrel up or down and twist to unlock the gate.(These are a royal pain in the behind but aren't likely to get opened except intentionally); A new quad lock that is suposed to appear on the market soon-haven't seen one but have heard of it. 

What are you using Aussie?


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## rumination (Jun 26, 2004)

A friend of mine recently gave me a triple lock Omega Jake biner, and it has become my new favorite ( http://omegapac.com/ophmsq3.html ) to tie my hitch to. Instead of pushing up and turning, you pull down and turn, which is sooo much easier, and it fits in the hand just right. Sorry, though, Nick, I don't think any of their biners have the nonsnag gate. 

I started off climbing with screwlock biners and a tautline hitch, and I remember having to check them and rescrew on a regular basis while in the tree. I prefer the triple lock because I only have to check it once when I close it and then I don't worry about it, although I am still in the habit of checking the whole setup every so often. A good practive left over from the tauntline days. 

Nick, let us know when you find that perfect steel biner! I use a steel biner for my line termination because the weight is good for flipping it over branches. I'm real happy with the one I have now, but I'd also love to find one with a nonsnag gate.


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## a_lopa (Jun 26, 2004)

plain old stubai,gate closes, screw lock 3200


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 26, 2004)

Aussie-lopa,

Hairline and micro-fractures in carabiners are an often repeated myth. MANY tests have been completed on new and dropped equipment with no fractures found. 

Here is a direct quote of what Denny Moorehouse says about the subject, "Rubbish!"

Did you read the HSE report?

Tom


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## Gord (Jun 27, 2004)

kong makes a few steel triple autolock biners with a key gate. be warned that the gate mechanisms seem to have limited lifetimes.

http://wesspur.com/Carabiners/auto-locking-carabiners.html

(the grenade gate)


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## a_lopa (Jun 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *Aussie-lopa,
> 
> Hairline and micro-fractures in carabiners are an often repeated myth. MANY tests have been completed on new and dropped equipment with no fractures found.
> ...



yes tom i did read the report.i was told by a few climb instructers over here not all, but some recognized on these boards that alloy had no place in a tree climbers kit.I climbed for years on black diamond ,kong alloy biners with no problems other than the mechanizems failing after hard use,i have no problems with anyone using whatever biner they want.it is just my opinion,although i do frown apon use of alloy biners in my own buis.that small amount of weight difference isnt an issue


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 27, 2004)

One of the key lines from the HSE report was the statement that the life of a biner may be only one use. We all have biners that have given us many good years of service. Then, their twin brothers and sisters will only last a short time. Just shows how close we have to check our gear. 

I have no issue with using aluminum biners for climbing. There are a few aluminum screwgate ovals in my kit that get used for certain rigging situations. Generally, light redirects or light speedlining. May as well use them up instead of digging more minerals out of the earth. When they die, they get replaced by steel.


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## Mahk (Jun 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> *Triple locks -the ones that lock on closing and require you to slide the barrel up or down and twist to unlock the gate.(These are a royal pain in the behind but aren't likely to get opened except intentionally)
> 
> *





What you describe is a double, not triple, locking carabiner. "...slide the barrell up or down and twist to unlock the gate." At this point, after two motions, the gate is unlocked. 

It is confusing because the terms 'Three Stage', 'Tri-Act' (both commercial terms) and 'three way action' are also used to describe this type of carabiner. 

This aspect of carabiner terminology was also debated on TB, under the thread "That Telltale Click". No consensus was reached, but there was some salient discussion. 

Consistent description of carabiner locking mechanisms is something that should be addressed in the next revision of ANSI Z 133.1. 

Mahk


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## Mahk (Jun 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> * The user must 1- Slide the barrel, 2- twist the collar and 3- push open the spring loaded gate. This is three actions required to open the biner. *




Rocky;

There are three motions required to open the carabiner, but only two motions are required to unlock the carabiner. After two motions (eg. push, then twist), the carabiner is unlocked and is set just like a non-locking carabiner. The gate is unlocked, but still closed, and has been unlocked with two separate motions. 

I don't hold any office in the state arborist association.

Mahk


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## NickfromWI (Jun 27, 2004)

Rocky, the springing gate does not lock the carabiner. To refer to a carabiner such as this....

Oval Biner, NON LOCKING 



...as a locking carabiner would be a misnomer. Even a worker off the street  would be able to tell you that this carabiner is not "locked" shut.

Compare apples to apples, not carabiner terms to snaphook terms.

I love you a lot, Rocky.

love
nick


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## rumination (Jun 27, 2004)

Nick,

Didja ever find that perfect, nosnag, steel biner? Clue us in!


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 27, 2004)

The spring closing action of a biner is not counted as a locking action. That is not the zero point when counting actions. 

Screw gate biners are only counted as single locking even if it takes many turns t lock the gate. Snaps are counted as locking, not double locking. 

It is a bit of a loose area when rope snaps only need one locking motion but biners need more. Finding the reasoning for that would be interesting. This is an example of divergent thinking. 

Tom


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 27, 2004)

i think part of the reason is that the snap doesn't depend on the gate position for strength like the carabiner does; yet spring is stronger andi n more leveraged position to close on snap(?).


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## dbeck (Jun 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *The spring action is 'locking' the biner closed. You must push against the spring in order to open the biner. without outside force, the biner will not open.
> 
> : *



this is the silliest info I have seen you share here...that spring action you speak is simply closing the biner, leaving nothing locked.


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## NickfromWI (Jun 27, 2004)

I may have found the right one. It is in the mail now. I will let you know how it goes when they arrive and I can give them a test run.

love
nick


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## Stumper (Jun 27, 2004)

Down boys down! I was using common parlance. Yes, only 2 actions are required to "unlock" a triple lock but 3 actions are required to open it. The other common name-"tri-act", is technically more accurate.

Locked V. Latched-a non-locker still is either latched or unlatched i.e. open or closed. Brian is correct in his reference to snaps-when they added 1 lock on top of auto closure they were marketed as "double locking". Mahk is correct that better definitions would be helpful. Right now the bottlom line is that 2 actions are acceptable on snaps (presumably because the design is so different-the actions take place 180* from one another) Three are required on carabiners. Three seperate actions make a pretty accident proof connector.:angel:


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## a_lopa (Jun 28, 2004)

i use 2 o-rings in the threads under my steel twist gates that makes mine quad locking.ive had climbing equipment audited for power cos by kids who just got there degree.1 thought my saw strap was a prussic2couldnt work out that the clip closing it self was a locking action,if it didnt self close its faulty.


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## a_lopa (Jul 2, 2004)

this is my prefered caribiner.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 2, 2004)

WHY???


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## Tree Machine (Jul 2, 2004)

*Quit your 'WHY'ing*

Probably because it's safe and perfectly functional.

Mike, don't poop your drawers just because a piece looks old; steel has a pretty darn good shelf life and kilonewton ratings, as far as I've come to know, don't change with time. I'm fairly confident Lopa will retire it when begins to not function properly. What I see is a well-worn piece of gear that's been maintained.

Those O-rings are going to keep that screw gate from unscrewing. They can be replaced when worn or broken. There are two, not one, for added safety. As long as the spring gate and hinge pin are working, and the screw gate does it's thing, I can't see a lot wrong with this picture. Lopa simply made a safe biner safer.

Any news on the proposed Quad-locks?


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## NickfromWI (Jul 2, 2004)

There is a reason why ANSI doesn't allow screw locking 'biners for climbing. There are so many great auto locking 'biners to choose from...why bother?

love
nick


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## Burnham (Jul 2, 2004)

Nick, I beg to differ. There are indeed many three stage auto locking biners to choose from, but there are very few that are great. More are nearly unusable than are not. And I believe as a class they have proven to be nearly as susceptible to accidental opening as screwlocks. Several reports from the UK indicate falls have resulted from this, and testing there has shown how it happens, and the factors that cause it. We can't go to sleep when using them...it could bite you.


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## Burnham (Jul 2, 2004)

Nick et al, I'm pretty sure someone has posted this link...it's worth a read if you haven't done so already. Click on the document titled HSL/2003/18 Karabiner Safety in the Arboriculture Industry.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/hsl/engineer.htm


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## a_lopa (Jul 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by NickfromWI _
> *There is a reason why ANSI doesn't allow screw locking 'biners for climbing. There are so many great auto locking 'biners to choose from...why bother?
> 
> love
> nick *



contrary to popular opinion on here, the world doesnt end at americas coast line,you tell me whats wrong with my clip, and just how 'self locking' are yours.

mike, WHY not?


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *WHY??? *



I guess it ain't purty enough?


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## Mahk (Jul 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> * I was using common parlance. Yes, only 2 actions are required to "unlock" a triple lock but 3 actions are required to open it.
> 
> ... reference to snaps-when they added 1 lock on top of auto closure they were marketed as "double locking".
> ...




Think of a non-locking 'biner or snap. Push the gate and it opens. There is only one motion required to open the 'biner or snap and there is no locking mechanism. 

A single-locking 'biner or snap requires one motion to unlock and a second motion to open the 'biner/snap. 

A double-locking 'biner requires two motions to unlock and three total motions to open the 'biner. 

The term 'locking' refers to the number of motions required to unlock the biner/snap. The progression is non-lock, single-lock, double lock.

The term 'action' (or Act, Stage, way, as in Tri-Act, Three Stage (both commercial names), and three way (used in the article that Tom referenced)) refers to the number of motions required to open the 'biner/snap. Since the 'biner/snap can't (or at least shouldn't) be open without some motion from the climber the progression starts at one, not zero--single action, double action, triple action.

Thus a non-locking 'biner is a single action 'biner; a single-locking 'biner is a double action 'biner; and a double-locking 'biner is a triple action 'biner (thus the name for Petzl's Tri-Act refers to three actions for the 'biner to be open, not simply to be unlocked).

I should note that in the thread on TB that was referenced in an above post, Rescue Man disagreed with part of this. He feels that 'action' refers to the motion of the locking mechanism alone and that a double-locking 'biner is a double-action locker. But, although we disagreed about 'action', we agreed that 'locking' refers to the motion(s) of the locking mechanism and does not include the actual opening of the gate. 

Using the sequence outlined above (non-lock, single-lock, double-lock), Tom is correct that locking snaps are only single-locking. It sounds so much safer, but 'double-locking' is incorrect. I randomly pulled 13 or 14 catalogues off of my bookshelf and looked up 'snaps'. The majority of them called our current climbing snaps 'locking' or 'single-locking'. Only three used the term 'double-locking'. But, just because it is in a catalogue doesn't mean its correct. 

If, as some say, the snaps that are currently used (eg. #11 on p. 42 of the '04 Sherrill catalogue) are 'double-locking' then what is a 'single-locking' snap? #10 on the same page? But we all call that a non-locking snap. 

Similarly if as stated above "...2 actions are required to "unlock" a triple lock..." is there only one action required to unlock a double lock? And then no action is required to unlock a single lock? Does that mean a single lock is the same as a non-lock? Or......or......or......

The confusion is in thinking that the terms triple-action, three way, etc. refer to the locking mechanism. They do not. They refer to the combined motions of the locking mechanism and the opening of the gate. 'Locking' refers solely and only to the locking mechanism. 

Why espouse terminology that is so obviously confusing ("...2 actions are required to "unlock" a triple lock...")? If it is agreed that "...better definitions would be helpful..." why not start by employing them right here? 

You say:

"Right now the bottlom line is that 2 actions are acceptable on snaps... 
Three are required on carabiners."

And these are single-locking snaps and double-locking carabiners. 

I don't mean to single out Stumper, but this post, while trying to be conciliatory, simply highlights the contradictory and confusing manner in which these terms have come to be used. Rather than arguing to maintain a misconstrued status quo, we should discuss ways to achieve a more logical standard of terms and definitions. 


And, for safety's sake:

"Three seperate actions make a pretty accident proof connector.:angel."

I have had locking snaps come open (twice) and a double-locking carabiner come unlocked (but not open). After that I changed how I attach my rope to the carabiner. Whatever we call snaps and carabiners, it is important to check them regularly. 


Rocky;

You are probably thinking of Mark Collins. He also works in the Atlanta area and is a past president of the GAA.

Mahk


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## rumination (Jul 5, 2004)

How about a screen door with a spring on it. Is that self-closing or self-locking?


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## a_lopa (Jul 6, 2004)

the only problem with screw gates is people not screwing them or checking,nothing wrong with the actual item.i read the UK examination of caribiners,it didnt really have any out come.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 6, 2004)

Screw lock biners suck, period. They are slow, unsafe, and there are better choices.

A screen door opens and closes like a carabiners open and close. Some have locks and double locks.
I don't understand why a rope snap is different. A double locking rope snap is really only single locking. Maybe it's because carabiners are from rock climbing and rope snaps are from tree work. When I started climbing they didn't have locking rope snaps, climbers fell all the time as they opened up. Same with screw gate carabiners.
Non-locking carabiners are much more likely to fail than a non-locking rope snap. So the different standards are probably appropriate.


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## a_lopa (Jul 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *Screw lock biners suck, period. They are slow, unsafe, and there are better choices
> 
> 
> ...


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## NickfromWI (Jul 6, 2004)

Rocky, I am suprised by your stubborness. You say you will "stick with industry-accepted terms," but you are using the wrong terms! 

Maybe this is like knot-names...it differs where you go in this country, but I don't think this is really the case.

I like the screen-door analogy. Just because the door is closed, doesn't mean that it is locked.

love
nick


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 6, 2004)

Is this the new fight thread?
Cool!


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## Tom Dunlap (Jul 8, 2004)

Rocky,

You're an army of one if you consider the spring closing action of a biner as one of the locking motions. If you want to see flames, post your notion here:

http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=rec.climbing

The crabbing and growsing that goes on here at AS is chicken scratching compared to what the professional flame warriors will subject you to at rec.climbing. I don't think that even you could hold your own over there. Give it a shot though, see what the rock jocks think of your nomenclature.

Tom


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## NickfromWI (Jul 21, 2004)

David and everyone else, these steel kong 'biners are what I was looking for. I wish they were a bit smaller, but that's just being nit-picky. It took a tiny bit of practice, but they CAN be opened with one hand, which is a neccessity for me. I like 'em!

love
nick


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## okietreedude1 (Jul 22, 2004)

Hey nick, great to hear they are working for you. I too tried opening them when I got em and it was a little tricky at first. The barrel has a differnt shape and a longer twist than what Im used to (dmm/wales). 

If i cant open the biner w/ one hand, I dont like it. dmm/wales will open one handed all day long with ease and speed. so will the kongs.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 23, 2004)

Those are truly excellent biners.

Here's an idea that I'm probably not the first or only one to think of.

How bout a palm-size steel triplelock, one that has a bigger diameter, heftier, beefier. Heck, make it a quad lock. Same general weight as a big boy, but the tough little brother

Who's going to step up first on that one? If I had to bet, I would guess Kong.


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