# Bad ride on pine topping



## Ekka (Aug 12, 2006)

2 videos to watch, do them in order.

1st is only 13secs 0.7mb wmv

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/yeehaoriginal.wmv

2nd is 3.02mins and 3.06mb wmv

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/yeeha.wmv


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## l2edneck (Aug 12, 2006)

*Rodeo style*

I have seen that numerous times.You are totally right not enuff tie in too much slack not enuff run thats darn near a suicide.That brings back something i heard years ago after watchin a co-worker do that same thing and almost break his leg and arm on the stubs.I said "lucky you were able to gaff back in"He said "Not luck i just know what im doin". LMFAO DUMBA** if you knew what you were doin you wouldnt have done it!!!!At the same job i seen him try to pull a top out of a slash pine and not even notch it just back cut it,then wonder why it ripped and hung there.I couldnt do any thing but look on in disbelief.Now accidents do happen but most are avoidable and that video is what we here call "Climbers Luck"


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## beowulf343 (Aug 12, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Higher up and smaller pieces works for me.


Yeah, but there is nothing worse than working under a climber doing a removal who cuts everything into two foot pieces so he can handle it. If this guy knew what he was doing and had a decent groundie, that top wouldn't have been a problem.


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## beowulf343 (Aug 12, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I agree but.....
> 
> I know business owners who get concerned about more conservative rigging but I've yet to run into a groundie that complained about taking more time.


It's not an issue of time for the groundies. If you're taking down a tree in a backyard with a long drag to the chipper, they usually prefer something bigger that only takes one trip than fifteen trips carrying two foot twigs. It's an issue of trips made between the job and the chipper. Put two groundies on that top after it was on the ground and they could have dragged it to the chipper in one trip (as long as there were no tight quarters on the drag route.)


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## pitkas (Aug 12, 2006)

IF you listen closely you can hear the groundie say "sorry".


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## beezer (Aug 13, 2006)

I agree that it was a bad decision to take that large of a piece. I've done my fare share of tall skinny trees and going for a wee bit of a ride is almost inevitable. It can be drastically lessened with a good guy on the ropes and taking more manageable sized pieces.

Obviously there are some sort of obstructions below that warrant roping the top down. I can speak from experience that a 30' top in a 10' area is really not that much fun. Slow down, take smaller pieces, everyone will be safer and happier IMO.

The fact that you can hear the groundie say sorry made me crack up. Not that I think what happened was funny. It is more of a, I've heard that before kind of funny.

Sure hope he was ok though, that was pretty violent.


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## beowulf343 (Aug 13, 2006)

Don't mean to sound like a jerk, but if that is a "large" piece, than how many removals have you done? I rope limbs and drop tops that are bigger than that every day without a single problem. Frankly, i'd have dropped that top right about there myself (just rigged a bit differently.)


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## Climb020 (Aug 13, 2006)

Well let's think that there was an unseen obsticle underneath him and he couldn't climb any higher due to weak spots or what have you. What could have been done to make a better out come. The groundy did let it run but only had a small space to work with and stopped it too fast.
First I would lighten up the pulley so it is right on the spar. Second tie a marlin in the line right above the notch. Just these two things alone would have taken most of the slack out of the line and allowed the groundy to make a better go at it. Just too much slack in the line to bring that piece in time at the height they did.
Just my 2 cents.


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## TimberJack_7 (Aug 13, 2006)

Not a good rigging set up, too long.

Not a good ground man. If he was going to let it ride, he should have let it ride a lot farther down the tree before bringing to that screaming halt.

I did not look at how wide the notch was. That was a good time to put in a wide notch. Make that top go tip first.

Nothing was wrong with the size of the top that was launched out of there, it was just handled incorrectly.

Don't you love the armchair arborist?


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## TimberJack_7 (Aug 13, 2006)

Now that I went back and watched the clip again, the climber didn't even notch it! That whole scenario was just bad all around. That climber is lucky to be alive.

All around piss poor technique.


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## Ekka (Aug 14, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I have seen it demonstrated and proven that the marlin does not reduce fall length.



Correct.

But does it reduce shock load on the rigging?

The Art & Science of Practical Rigging series demonstrated that the fall distance was the same, but it didn't actually demonstrate with a dynamometer any difference in loading at the pulley.

It could be argued that if the fall distance is the same then the load must be the same.

In reality though, the piece is falling when the hingewood breaks at notch closure .... anywhere between say 45 degrees and 90 degrees depending how wide a gob was cut.

What that means is if the lowering rope is say 10' up a cut piece and not close to the butt end then there would be a larger pendulum momentum to the rope as the piece swings in and hits the trunk ... also, if the cut piece comes off the hingewood earlier at say 45 degrees then there will be a drop with a lot more slack on the rope as the tie point sails past the pulley... yes the fall distance is the same but the shock load would be higher.

I have not seen any 100% conclusive evidence that supports the theory of same loading whether tying close to the butt or close to half way up a piece. Logic would say the closer to the butt the less loading, but the piece would still be hanging the same ht from the ground.


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## beezer (Aug 14, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> Don't mean to sound like a jerk, but if that is a "large" piece, than how many removals have you done? I rope limbs and drop tops that are bigger than that every day without a single problem. Frankly, i'd have dropped that top right about there myself (just rigged a bit differently.)



Shouldn't really judge a climber by his post count. 

I've been a full time, year round climber for 7-8 years for a company and I have my own budding business. Yes I have done a couple removals before.

I'm sure if there was a camera on the ground you would have probably seen the groundie get launched across the backyard. He panics, puts a death grip on the rope and when he comes to a halt...........bang! Sure the rigging could have been better, however, there was probably insufficient raps and the groundie couldn't control it properly. I really don't think the rigging really matters too much, if you let a piece run for 10-15' and jam it to a halt, you will go for a ride. There could have been a lack of communication between the climber and the groundie, inexperienced groundie etc.

For me sometimes smaller is better, that's just me.


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## beowulf343 (Aug 14, 2006)

Beezer, sorry, I am not judging you by your post count at all. I have gotten great advice from guys that have posted only once or twice. Heck, I'm fairly new here myself. I'm just surprised that you think this is a "large" piece. Just a difference of opinion I guess.


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## Climb020 (Aug 14, 2006)

But the knot close tied to the notch would mean there is less rope between pulley and knot right? So the ground man would have felt the wood on the line sooner and giving him slightly more time to control the piece sooner. After watching it looking like the ground guy needs to wait for the piece to go almost vertical for it to run because of the wires. If the pulley is tied up tight with the knot close to the notch the cirle around the pulley would only be about a foot to a foot and a half.


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## Ekka (Aug 15, 2006)

Thats what I think to 020.

But, until we actually prove it scientifically we are only assuming.

So, brings up an idea for experiment doesn't it. I cant help as I do not have a dynamometer.

Also, if the lowering device had a capstan like the GRCS or Hobbs you can pull in slack as the tie in point passes the pulley reducing shock load way more and gaining some ground for allowing the piece to run that 2' more.

Having rigged down on both Portawraps and GRCS I can say that pulling in that slack and letting it run is way smoother than a porty.


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