# Safety is No Accident



## Hawk Pilot

I have been a member for about a week now and really like this site... lot's of great information here.

I have been around this business since I was 12 years old and cutting timber and pulp wood since I was 15. I cut wood by myself and that's a No No but I was only child and my Dad worked away. Later, I joined the Army and flew chopper's and that's risky business too. 

My Message: 

_* Farming, Cutting Tree's, Sawmills, Trucking the Wood and all these related duties rank in the Top Ten of the most Dangerous Profession's and that's a Fact jack !*_

Reading over the cause's of some of the accident's (listed here) are wide spread. I will list some of them and add a few more of my own for a Head's Up List for the Reader !

Cause of Accident(s)

Failure to Plan Out Your Job -- just doing thing's without fore thought and placing yourself and other's in harm's way... No Planning... the fate of having a accident is on it's way to You.

Operating Equipment beyond normal limit's -- chains,cable breaking and flying objects, roll over, being crushed, etc. . 

Not Checking Your Equipment or Using it Properly -- Daily checks for lines fraying, weakened belts that are frayed, using chains and ropes, hooks and safety rig that has been over stressed and weakened. Not wearing your equipment and not buckled in. Thrown out when your seat belt was left loose (not worn) and crushed.

Working Tried or Sick and Not Clear Headed, Working with a So So Attitude -- We feel compelled to got to work when it would be best to stay at home. We Work on the Job and Not clear headed. We have done this job .. thousand's of times and it's no big deal.. until we are hurt and/ or killed or the direct cause to injuring/ killing someone else.

Working in Bad Weather -- We owe & owe so off to work we go. However, their are days when we should back off and go to the house/ shop. It's too windy, ice or sleet, heavy snow, etc. . These are the type of days that are best spent at the shop/ home area. Best spent servicing equipment, doing maint. and Avoid Trouble and live to work another day.

Proper Training and Acquired Knowledge -- If you're Not Sure of what you're doing...Stop ! In the next few second's, you may screw up and injure yourself or other's. Always's be in the high 90% of knowing what your doing. Don't just wing it and see what happen's ! Your chance's of injury are way off the scale of (risk assessment) injury and it's just a matter of time. If you don't know ask and get the proper training.

Getting Distracted -- We all have cell phones and all types of distraction's that will take your mind off what you're doing. Try to keep away from being distracted. If you are distracted, make sure you know 100% where you were at the time and Not Forgetting anything (distracted). 

Lot's more but the main ones that I could think of (off the cuff). Feel Free to Add Your Own Safety Tips. 

Safety is No Accident and Be Careful Out There !

Happy Holiday's,

Avery

Sorry to be Blunt is Not in the Interest of Safety. I am a Safey Officer and a working one, and in all types of weather conditions. Bad Weather is Weather that is _* Extreme Weather in this Example *_ i.e. too Windy, Ice, Sleet, Heavy Snow Conditions. If You need to go out and work in Extreme Weather Condition's that's your business but High Risk is the Result i.e. cutting in high winds, ice and sleet is considered risky by most folks that are in the business. Why Point out different example's that were not written down when the invite was there for everyone to point out Safety Issue's in the Sprit of Safety. This post was about the overall awareness to Help to Prevent Acciden't (for All Level's of Expereince). Taking the Easy way out (not working) is Not the Answer when You have Extreme Weather to Consider. It's About Working Safetly in Day to day Weather but Not in " Extreme & Bad Weather " ! Work on maintenace items and then go out after the Main Part of Bad Weather has passed and Get'R Done. 

Again, it's Not about Working in Weather, It's working in Bad Weather... Ice, Sleet, High Winds, Heavy Snows (considered extreme weather conditions). Some refer to these conditions as weather that's Not Fit for Man or Beast to be Working In !

Avery


----------



## beowulf343

Hawk Pilot said:


> Working Tried or Sick and Not Clear Headed, Working with a So So Attitude -- We feel compelled to got to work when it would be best to stay at home. We Work on the Job and Not clear headed. We have done this job .. thousand's of times and it's no big deal.. until we are hurt and/ or killed or the direct cause to injuring/ killing someone else.
> 
> Working in Bad Weather -- We owe & owe so off to work we go. However, their are days when we should back off and go to the house/ shop. It's too windy, ice or sleet, heavy snow, etc. . These are the type of days that are best spent at the shop/ home area. Best spent servicing equipment, doing maint. and Avoid Trouble and live to work another day.



I'm going to be blunt, i'm tired of hearing this mealy mouthed, warmed over safety crap. I know all this, most of us in the business know this. I don't need someone who doesn't do tree work for a living, telling me how to be safe. I also don't entirely agree with the two "safety precautions" above. If you are sick with something serious, fine, stay home. If you have a little head cold, suck it up. Staying home for a week while your nose stops running will get you fired on a lot of tree crews. And as for the bad weather, is there a single tree man who hasn't done work in bad weather on storm? It sometimes is a part of the job.

Ok, sorry, that may have been a bit harsh. I'm just tired of seeing guys like you thinking they are coming up with something profound about safety, when the majority of it is just common sense that every treeman and groundie know, and know very well. I've attended safety meetings twice a week for the last fifteen years, meetings run by treemen for treemen. Meetings run by guys who have had their face cut, or or missing a hand, or have seen first hand the result of unsafe work habits. I've seen guys fall out of trees, my grandpa cut his hand off, my first foreman was still having problems with his face that had been cut open with a saw before i was born-these are more valuable lessons than a guy who just decides to write down some common sense safety precautions. If you want to get into safety, how about some ways of being safe when you have to work in the dark, or are working in snow so bad you can't see the ground. This is your problem, treework isn't always done in perfect conditions, or with perfect equipment, and you can't just go home when things aren't perfect. How about some tips on being safe even when the deck is stacked against you instead of taking the easy way out and just not doing the job at all.


----------



## Toddppm

I like that list. We should all only work when it's sunny, 80 and we're in a good mood. 

Let's all move to San Diego and live with Jeff!


----------



## beowulf343

Hawk Pilot said:


> Sorry to be Blunt is Not in the Interest of Safety. I am a Safey Officer and a working one, and in all types of weather conditions. Bad Weather is Weather that is _* Extreme Weather in this Example *_ i.e. too Windy, Ice, Sleet, Heavy Snow Conditions. If You need to go out and work in Extreme Weather Condition's that's your business but High Risk is the Result i.e. cutting in high winds, ice and sleet is considered risky by most folks that are in the business. Why Point out different example's that were not written down when the invite was there for everyone to point out Safety Issue's in the Sprit of Safety. This post was about the overall awareness to Help to Prevent Acciden't (for All Level's of Expereince). Taking the Easy way out (not working) is Not the Answer when You have Extreme Weather to Consider. It's About Working Safetly in Day to day Weather but Not in " Extreme & Bad Weather " ! Work on maintenace items and then go out after the Main Part of Bad Weather has passed and Get'R Done.
> 
> Again, it's Not about Working in Weather, It's working in Bad Weather... Ice, Sleet, High Winds, Heavy Snows (considered extreme weather conditions). Some refer to these conditions as weather that's Not Fit for Man or Beast to be Working In !
> 
> Avery



Everyone and their dog in this business knows the safety guidelines you set down. However, while not a lot of our work is done in bad weather, sometimes it has to be. Since you are an experienced safety officer in all types of weather conditions, how about some not so well known safety tips that can save lives when the weather is bad. I would be more than happy to hear safe climbing techniques when four inches of ice covers every tree, safe trimming techniques by flashlight, how to spot groundies when you can't see the ground. And yes, i have learned some tricks over the years working in exactly these types of situations. Would i have liked to go home and stay home, you bet your ass. 
I really would like some advice other than stay home and wait until the weather clears. You know, in 98, it took a week for the ice to melt and another month before temps got warm enough to melt all the snow where we were in quebec. So we should have just sat around for five weeks before doing anything?


----------



## Hawk Pilot

*The Safety Tip(s) Were Not Written for Your Specific Job*

Mr. Beowulf

I don't understand that.. you don't understand that this post was Not Written to cover your exact job and level of experience. I see that you've worked in extreme weather and all types of weather condition's and lived to tell about it. I take it that your'e very good and careful and have worked in this business most of your life.

When you go to the Safety meeting's, the folk's giving the presentation are wasting a lot of your time. They really don't know what they are talking about and you're there because it's manatory. You want to hear about how to do your job a better way and safer too (those safety folks don't know nothing that's of value to you). 

You asked me to give you pointer's and I don't know what you do (job wise). My hearted effort today was toward's the common good of spreading the word of the (some) Do's and Don't ! My Advice was Generalized Tip's and Directed toward Anyone (the reader) and at any level... of expereince to Read and Heed !

I did not expect someone to attack the good of this effort and do their own comparison of Experience (since I've Not Posted here before). I've been in the business for 53 years and hurt once. I was distracted by a guy behind me, he shouted something and I turned my head at the wrong time. I was ground guiding a D-8 to park. The D-8 track hit a shipping rack and it fell and hit me. I loss the tip of my finger. I have a good track record (no injuries), just minor wound's and scratch's over the years. 

I've worked in the worst of weather because we had bills to pay to keep things going. The days that were really (severe weather) bad weather, were mostly losers, they ended up as a day lost and damaged equipment (more often than not). So, we should have did routine maint. but ended up fixing things that were not broke before. Try working on the mountain in ice and sleet and frozen ground with tracked equipment, its tricky. 

I wanted this Post to be taken for the Value that it was Intended and not taken out of text and sharp shoot it. I thought that the Most Expereinced Reader would Share their Personal Experience's of What Type of Conditions's (unsafe) They Worked In. How they Countered these Problem's and made it through the day (safely). 

If you want to PM me, I'd be happy to discuss anything you'd like. I don't use this forum or any other to discuss my personallity issue's. My interest is the common good of people. I have interviewed or know 100's of folks that were injured and talked to the witness(s) of the ones that saw the accident (they were killed). Mr. Beowulf, the answer was always the same, they screwed up and made a mistake or muti mistakes and real sorry now. They are in wheel chair's or quads now and their life is over as they know it. 

Please share some of your experience and tell us the Do Not's when your out working in Extreme (Bad) Weather. How you counter the High Winds and Lot's of Ice, Sleet and Heavy Snow. Please share your knowledge.. and how to live through it. What extra steps you made to work as safe as you could in these extreme conditions and your groundee too. I'm guessing... you may work for a utility company and forced to work out there when the power lines are hit by tree's and the weather is very extreme and not commom place for most of us.

This is the information that would help anyone that's going to work in Extreme Weather and High Risk Condition's !


Avery


----------



## woodguy105

treeco said:


> i agree. Also the op needs to hang around a bit longer before delivering a sermon.



+1


----------



## beowulf343

Hawk Pilot said:


> I don't understand that.. you don't understand that this post was Not Written to cover your exact job and level of experience. I see that you've worked in extreme weather and all types of weather condition's and lived to tell about it. I take it that your'e very good and careful and have worked in this business most of your life.


Hmm, maybe that is what's throwing me off, i wasn't expecting you to cover my exact job, but on a tree forum i was expecting a safety officer to cover maybe a couple, more specific to tree work, ways of preventing accidents. I see nothing about saw safety, very little about height safety, nothing about checking the safety of the actual tree, nothing even as simple as the safe way to lift heavy loads.



Hawk Pilot said:


> When you go to the Safety meeting's, the folk's giving the presentation are wasting a lot of your time. They really don't know what they are talking about and you're there because it's manatory. You want to hear about how to do your job a better way and safer too (those safety folks don't know nothing that's of value to you).



That's not what i'm saying at all. I'm saying that YOUR safety list has not a ton of value for me. Our company safety guy is actually excellent. We have a meeting of the whole outfit once a week where he covers more general things since we have guys there with experience ranging from first day to forty years. Then he has a separate meeting with each individual crew every week. These meetings cover the more specific stuff depending on the crew's experience and their specialty. For example, my crew goes out with a crane every day so he more often covers advanced crane safety issues with us than he does for a crew that never uses one.



Hawk Pilot said:


> You asked me to give you pointer's and I don't know what you do (job wise). My hearted effort today was toward's the common good of spreading the word of the (some) Do's and Don't ! My Advice was Generalized Tip's and Directed toward Anyone (the reader) and at any level... of expereince to Read and Heed !
> 
> I did not expect someone to attack the good of this effort and do their own comparison of Experience (since I've Not Posted here before). I've been in the business for 53 years and hurt once. I was distracted by a guy behind me, he shouted something and I turned my head at the wrong time. I was ground guiding a D-8 to park. The D-8 track hit a shipping rack and it fell and hit me. I loss the tip of my finger. I have a good track record (no injuries), just minor wound's and scratch's over the years.



So you've been in the tree business for 53 years? 
Ok, fine, you are making a good effort. But once a month someone comes up with a good effort almost identical to this. The top part of this forum is dedicated to tree workers, something more specific to the tree industry is appreciated.



Hawk Pilot said:


> If you want to PM me, I'd be happy to discuss anything you'd like. I don't use this forum or any other to discuss my personallity issue's. My interest is the common good of people. I have interviewed or know 100's of folks that were injured and talked to the witness(s) of the ones that saw the accident (they were killed). Mr. Beowulf, the answer was always the same, they screwed up and made a mistake or muti mistakes and real sorry now. They are in wheel chair's or quads now and their life is over as they know it.



So your advice after all these interviews is to wear my seatbelt, that will keep my finger from being cut off when i accidentally drop my polesaw out of a tree and unthinkingly try to catch it. These are the kinds of accidents i'm talking about.



Hawk Pilot said:


> Please share some of your experience and tell us the Do Not's when your out working in Extreme (Bad) Weather. How you counter the High Winds and Lot's of Ice, Sleet and Heavy Snow. Please share your knowledge.. and how to live through it. What extra steps you made to work as safe as you could in these extreme conditions and your groundee too. I'm guessing... you may work for a utility company and forced to work out there when the power lines are hit by tree's and the weather is very extreme and not commom place for most of us.
> 
> This is the information that would help anyone that's going to work in Extreme Weather and High Risk Condition's !



This is actually not a bad idea. Let me think about this for a couple days, come up with the most common issues in this type of weather and i'll type something up.
I'm not a "safety officer" with 53 years of experience, however. I was kind of hoping you had some tips since you were so eager to share. 
And it is not really that uncommon around here to work in storm. I haven't done row in over ten years, yet we still go out many times every winter.
How about a more specific questions then, (btw, i'm a tree climber.)
Scenario, couple weeks ago got a call from a dpw. Pine tree near a busy intersection uprooted, leaned hard into another pine that was close enough to the intersection. It was dark, snowing hard which caused the first uproot, and was the cause for concern-more snow adding more weight to both trees. The intersection was shut down but people were trying to get home. As a 53 year safety officer veteran, what safety issues should i be aware of in this situation? (Oddly, about the most dangerous thing ended up having to watch for the firemen who were directing traffic and liked to wander over to jaw with my groundies.)
Oh, here's a good one and even a recent thread about it. I walk up to an ash with a heavy lean, what should i be aware of to stay safe?
But these are the kind of situations i'm trying to explain to you, and for us anyway, they aren't a rarity. I personally don't think you have 53 years in the tree business. WE WORK OUTSIDE FOR A LIVING-the weather is rarely perfect, heck, we'll have more days with snow and wind for the next couple months than days that are sunny, not to mention that it's dark by five.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

*It's a Generalized Safety Tip for All to Read and Heed !*

You NEED Not spend a lot of time explaining your personal thought's and what You get out of this thread. This post never offered instruction or any specific technique for you to follow. Don't connect me to your work place where they don't have a answer for all your need's to operate safe out there. I strongly suggest that you go to management and tell them how stupid they are in safety department. They (safety) should be giving you operational classes and your're getting generalized safety tips instead. 

I thought the generalized approach (here) was just fine and not a lot of folk's know or follow basic safety rules on a daily basis; or proper training, common sense never apply's.. too lost to begin with. Also that's why they're in wheel chairs and bed ridden, just sad and most accident's should never have happened. I only listed a few of the safety tips that came to mind and said that in black & white. I'm dam sure my dog's don't know that much about safety because they won't pay attention to their daily safety brief (little jokee here). 

Good News for All... Your thinking about adding your word's of wisdom to this post. I'm Interested in seeing how you work out there and how You Avoid Injury when the Weather is Bad (high winds, ice and heavy snows, extreme weather conditions). 

This is the type of information that would speak volumes to the less experienced reader. I never offered magic safety tips. When the weather is extreme.. it's just Nut's to be out there when I don't have to be. However, that's my personal work experience, damaging my equipment or added body/ life risk is risky business and counter productive for most of us !

Avery


----------



## beowulf343

A safety officer with 53 years of experience and not one single safety tip for either scenario (other than don't work outside in snow.) 

But you are right, safety is an important issue, so the next time someone takes the time to copy the safety sticker on the side of their table saw and post it here, i will give them my undivided support.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

*Comprehension Skills and the Ability to Read & Understand*

I have Not Spent my Life Time in Safety for 53 years. I have made Safety a Daily Event in my life and I'm alive today because of my safety discipline. I never said I've been a Safety Officer for 53 years. I have been in & around this business for 53 years. I wish you'd quit showing your lack of comprehension and/ or reading skills. I gave the forum a Generalized Safety Information List. This was a good start for the bulk of the folks that are new in the business or just lack basic safety understanding/ principals. Why twist my word's or the intent of my post to fit your need's and desire's. Are you a politician, the type of person that twist's and turns ? If you have some burning need to get a specific safety tip, then go into work tomorrow and ask away. 

I could offer some more specific type of safety tip's but it's Not the Intent of this post and understand that ! This post is Not about You or Me, try to grasp that thought ! I was waiting to see what the response may be and add my personal experience's as the thread progressed. 

If you want to share some of your specific experience(s) with the folks here, do it ! Don't say that you know something or may say something... sort of weak and look's & smells like BS. So start writing and sharing your vast amount of knowledge. 

For the Last Time, this post is for the Reader and apply's primarily to the less experienced person. Read the little list I wrote and take from it what you can. If your so experienced and it mean's nothing to You.. then you're golden. 

If you can add anything that is more specific and have a good story (safety example), then, please add it and contribute to this post. 

If your going to cry and twist & turn and do that all that... it say's a lot and speaks volumes. If you have some sort of difference with me, then PM me. Otherwise, why show your true self to the world when it's not too smart ? 


Avery


----------



## jefflovstrom

Toddppm said:


> I like that list. We should all only work when it's sunny, 80 and we're in a good mood.
> 
> Let's all move to San Diego and live with Jeff!



 Too funny Todd! Actually, we are dealing with the 'pine-apple express', lot's of rain. I would rather work in it than drive in it. 
Jeff CTSP


----------



## Gologit

TreeCo said:


> I agree. Also the OP needs to hang around a bit longer before delivering a sermon.



Yup. He's preaching to the choir. This kind of stuff might go over better in the Homeowner forum.

Or maybe Lawnsite.


----------



## SpiralAcacia

Isn't the gentleman only trying to p1$$ you off?
Could be good intentions - you know where to these pave the road...!

SA


----------



## jefflovstrom

SpiralAcacia said:


> Isn't the gentleman only trying to p1$$ you off?
> Could be good intentions - you know where to these pave the road...!
> 
> SA



Sounds like 'beer-thirty' in the East!
Jeff


----------



## rarefish383

Toddppm said:


> I like that list. We should all only work when it's sunny, 80 and we're in a good mood.
> 
> Let's all move to San Diego and live with Jeff!



What are you talking about? Those are the days I call out and go fishing. If I'm sick and it's nasty out, I make sure I go to work, just to make sure every one else is just as misserable as me.

I'm sure the OP's intentions are good, but he doesn't know how many times we've seen and heard most of this safety stuff. I firmly believe the only way to be safe is to grow up being taught safety from your first breath. I've been out of tree work for a good while now. I work full time at UPS and have been a Hazardous Materials Responder, Safety Com member, Shop Steward, and Safety Trainer. I'm telling you, it's like beating your head on a brick wall to get people to look up as the walk under over head belts. There are over 1000 employees in my building and I bet I'm the only one that looks up, and I have seen 100 lb boxes of bolts fall off the belts before. Safety is a hard one, you preach and preach and hope some one listens, Joe.


----------



## jefflovstrom

Not sure if we are comparing apples to apples.
Jeff


----------



## rarefish383

Jeff, you may be right with my UPS to Tree Work comps not being apples to apples. But, they are not apples to oranges. The only reason I look up walking under moving belts is because I was taught to look up walking under any tree, hangers, dead stobs, leaners, what ever kind of widow maker out there. The most important thing in safety is awareness, and it's hard to teach. Like the first time a groundie hears a climber yell headache. He thinks it's funny, untill someone grabs him and snatches him out of the way. Headache was the first term we taught every new hire, and probaly the last one they learned. Actually, by the end of their first day they knew it, but you still worry about it. We never had a serious injury and never lost a man. My uncle did. He had a neighbors son working. Forget how old, but out of school. He was on a low roof sweeping off saw dust and blacked out and fell breaking his neck. He was a qudraplegic after the accident. That's one of the reasons I let Dads business go. I didn't want to have to explain to someone why their loved one wasn't coming home. Even if we joke about it sometines, it is serious. Thanks guys, for lettin me ramble, Joe.


----------



## jefflovstrom

rarefish383 said:


> Jeff, you may be right with my UPS to Tree Work comps not being apples to apples. But, they are not apples to oranges. The only reason I look up walking under moving belts is because I was taught to look up walking under any tree, hangers, dead stobs, leaners, what ever kind of widow maker out there. The most important thing in safety is awareness, and it's hard to teach. Like the first time a groundie hears a climber yell headache. He thinks it's funny, untill someone grabs him and snatches him out of the way. Headache was the first term we taught every new hire, and probaly the last one they learned. Actually, by the end of their first day they knew it, but you still worry about it. We never had a serious injury and never lost a man. My uncle did. He had a neighbors son working. Forget how old, but out of school. He was on a low roof sweeping off saw dust and blacked out and fell breaking his neck. He was a qudraplegic after the accident. That's one of the reasons I let Dads business go. I didn't want to have to explain to someone why their loved one wasn't coming home. Even if we joke about it sometines, it is serious. Thanks guys, for lettin me ramble, Joe.


 
No problem, you go, Rambling Joe!!!! 
Jeff


----------



## Toddppm

rarefish383 said:


> What are you talking about? Those are the days I call out and go fishing. Joe.


 
Sounds like the boys in Florida. I hear they can't get to work if it's going to be good fishing. 
Went out on a charter boat a couple days during the week when I was down there one time and was a couple of young guys on the boat both days that skipped work:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## boltonranger

*Now I have to disagree.*

Firstly - I liked the post. I liked the spirit in was written in.
AS to the comment "this belongs in the homeowner forum" - I disagree.
It's real good where it is. In fact I'll go so far as to say it's those among us that have the most experience that need to hear it...but of course no one makes us read a post - we _ choose to read it_

As to the comment preaching to the choir:
"Preaching to the choir is preaching to the people who are the warmest and most receptive to the message." They "amen" the loudest and respond with enthusiasm.

The poor OP was certainly NOT preaching to the choir. Not with a response like that. Cut the guy a little slack.

My read of his post was he was trying to help anyone who needed reminding.
It helped me. If it didn't help you, what's the harm?
Good post Avery. Happy New Year.
-br


----------



## Hawk Pilot

*Rodger That !*

Boltonranger & All

Yes, the Spirt of My Safety Post was for Everyone and especially the new folks in the business. You mentioned... reminding other's was good for you and we all slip a little in our daily routine. We take s little chance here & there and really know better; most of the time we make it... but that one time we don't and then say... I knew better.. boy was I dumb. 

Thanks for your supporting comment's and the experienced reader that does not need to review the basic safety stuff can brezze on by. 
 
I plan on posting some example's of accident's or close calls that has happened to me or I have seen personally, pointing out what I or they did wrong or freak bad luck that happened that day. 

I suggest... Please add Example's to this Safety Post. List some things that would make the Old & New Guys aware of different work situations to advoid (danger to your person) and don't let this happen to you ! ! !

The Best to Everyone in 2011 & Take Care Out There !

Avery


----------



## Gologit

*Hawk Pilot*

Well? Where is it? We're all waiting for you to dazzle us with the accumulated wisdom you seem so eager to share.

I'm sure your audience will give your advice, suggestions, and cautionary tales the exact amount of attention that each deserve.

C'mon...we're eager to learn. I really think we're going to.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

*Seem's Like Your a Real Smart Guy... Go Right Ahead and Tell me How Perfect You Are*

I'm 62, Been through 3 shooting conflict's that the USA decided to stick their nose in, got shot once out of the 3 trips overseas. Worked all my life, sometimes two jobs and long hours. Proud to say, only one minor injury in 35 years. I not the behind the desk guy (logger, farmer, truck driver on low boy, hvy. equip. mech., UH-60 test pilot, 3 tours as combat pilot, long line hel. pilot, safety officer., FAA Mechanic., etc.) you think I am and the Safety Post was well intended but scarred up by kiddies. 

The Safety Post was a Add-on document for everyone to share in and help others stay out of trouble with personal (I've been there) expereince(s). I have yet to see one post that come's from ... You Expert's. 

I really don't give a dam what happen's from here.. wreck it for other's. 

Safety Works Best for the Folks that have an Open Minded Brain (safety consicious) !

See Ya, Would Not Like to Know Ya or Be Ya.


----------



## ropensaddle

Hawk Pilot said:


> I'm 62, Been through 3 shooting conflict's that the USA decided to stick their nose in, got shot once out of the 3 trips overseas. Worked all my life, sometimes two jobs and long hours. Proud to say, only one minor injury in 35 years. I not the behind the desk guy (logger, farmer, truck driver on low boy, hvy. equip. mech., UH-60 test pilot, 3 tours as combat pilot, long line hel. pilot, safety officer., FAA Mechanic., etc.) you think I am and the Safety Post was well intended but scarred up by kiddies.
> 
> The Safety Post was a Add-on document for everyone to share in and help others stay out of trouble with personal (I've been there) expereince(s). I have yet to see one post that come's from ... You Expert's.
> 
> I really don't give a dam what happen's from here.. wreck it for other's.
> 
> Safety Works Best for the Folks that have an Open Minded Brain (safety consicious) !
> 
> See Ya, Would Not Like to Know Ya or Be Ya.


 
Respect your service however; I have a copy of the ANZI Z133 and the A300 I think it pretty much covers our industry. I have 27 years of this




like to compare notes? 4 stitches in right hand only injury and not bragging at all, lucky a time or two but I mutilated my self away from the job. How are you gonna help my safety? What do you have to offer I don't have literature for and experience in related to my work? As a pilot, I guess we have shared in common time off ground but what makes you assume we all are mindless apes in need of your mothering?


----------



## Hawk Pilot

J C... I can not figure out why your in left field and write -- statement's like your mindless apes and need mothering and state that against me ... your word's not mind and never inferred by me. Hell's Bell's.. the post is for everyone to post their Experience's (what happend to them or advoid this). 

When you go to Safety Class and they talk about the On-going days without an accident and on & on... it gets a little boring .. does it not, you heard it all before.

However, when you hear about someone that just got hurt or killed.. everyone want's to know how it happened and why. You want to know how the accident happened, because, maybe you'll be in a similar situation down the road. when the guy just screwed up, you might make a stupid joke and say, " well, I knew that this was going to happen.. he was always taking chances." Also, everyone remember's that accident & how they got hurt and No Repeat's for them (learn by mistakes).

I started my post at the 1st level (gen. stuff) and pointed out the basic safety item(s) that came to mind. You expert's have a hard time grasping the fact that if it's too basic for you, then No One can benefit from reading this post. So, Experts, Pro's. ... if it does not appy to you.. then, move on. Not everyone on this Forum are the Pro's and if someone gives them a tip.... it may save their butt (take that in account).

I've asked & invited everyone to share (tips) their Experiences and what went wrong, what they should have done to prevent the accident, why their friend or the guy they knew is on disability... a quad, etc. or dead. 

I've been in the most dangerous jobs in the business and working as safe as possible has kept me alive, No doubt about it !

If you respect my service, respect the fact that I'm tried to help people that may be Not aware of Right or Wrong Safety Practice's. This post was never about me or you, it's Not a Stupid Debate. It's not about the fact that you have all your safety reg.'s and that's all you need to be safe out there. So, not about you or me & your personal in-difference or lack of understanding; and I do not write in code it's very clear to most readers... just a bunch of un-needed huy'ee. 

Closing...other folks that have been in this game had the right slant on this post... they Understood (clearly) My Intent and were Ok with it. 

Take Care, Good Luck


----------



## ropensaddle

Hawk Pilot said:


> J C... I can not figure out why your in left field and write -- statement's like your mindless apes and need mothering and state that against me ... your word's not mind and never inferred by me. Hell's Bell's.. the post is for everyone to post their Experience's (what happend to them or advoid this).
> 
> When you go to Safety Class and they talk about the On-going days without an accident and on & on... it gets a little boring .. does it not, you heard it all before.
> 
> However, when you hear about someone that just got hurt or killed.. everyone want's to know how it happened and why. You want to know how the accident happened, because, maybe you'll be in a similar situation down the road. when the guy just screwed up, you might make a stupid joke and say, " well, I knew that this was going to happen.. he was always taking chances." Also, everyone remember's that accident & how they got hurt and No Repeat's for them (learn by mistakes).
> 
> I started my post at the 1st level (gen. stuff) and pointed out the basic safety item(s) that came to mind. You expert's have a hard time grasping the fact that if it's too basic for you, then No One can benefit from reading this post. So, Experts, Pro's. ... if it does not appy to you.. then, move on. Not everyone on this Forum are the Pro's and if someone gives them a tip.... it may save their butt (take that in account).
> 
> I've asked & invited everyone to share (tips) their Experiences and what went wrong, what they should have done to prevent the accident, why their friend or the guy they knew is on disability... a quad, etc. or dead.
> 
> I've been in the most dangerous jobs in the business and working as safe as possible has kept me alive, No doubt about it !
> 
> If you respect my service, respect the fact that I'm tried to help people that may be Not aware of Right or Wrong Safety Practice's. This post was never about me or you, it's Not a Stupid Debate. It's not about the fact that you have all your safety reg.'s and that's all you need to be safe out there. So, not about you or me & your personal in-difference or lack of understanding; and I do not write in code it's very clear to most readers... just a bunch of un-needed huy'ee.
> 
> Closing...other folks that have been in this game had the right slant on this post... they Understood (clearly) My Intent and were Ok with it.
> 
> Take Care, Good Luck


 
Ok I think the point that is to be made here is there are experts in here that can give real advise both from experience and out of the osha standards. Most of these guys will help anyone out with accurate safety data related to our industry and they have been here and in the trenches of our industry. You come in sorta jumping the gun trying to preach safety without getting to know everyone and gain comradeship. Ever watch Bah Bah blacksheep; in this scenario we are the mechanic who is sick of college boys. I think you must mean well but your approach needs cultivating, try to browse and get to know some of us, we don't bite always but you do need thick skin good day


----------



## ropensaddle

I remember my last osha meeting it was supposed to be for trees. We all gathered in the big oval office expecting to gain knowledge toward our work, maybe a new rule or something we could take home. We sat there 8 grueling hours listening to a prick talk about extension cords and scaffolding I busted a gut twice on the double insulated power tool lecture. I mean not one thing related to our industry it is easy to see why we're going broke.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

My skin thickness is fine. I'm Not to blame for your Company's Safety Program or how boring it is and you heard it all before. Debate (continued) offers nothing or has No Vital Message or Good Value to the Reader of this Safety Post (stupid).

For the 4th or 5th time, let's Post actual event's... accidents or close call's, don't do this, this happend to me, my good friend got his finger smashed yesterday ,etc., etc. . Post the type of things that people remember. Events that will or may lodge in their mind and keep them from harm; why make the same type of mistake's and not learn from them. 

Who can give the better safety tips... safety admin. folks or the real deal worker that work's out there everyday... we know the answer... dumb to say it " Us ! ! "

If (anyone) has some great safety tips, and best based on your own or observed expereince's.. lay them on Us. Help someone out and give them a head's Up...don't let this happen to you !

Keep your personal want's or don't want's to yourself; it's not that useful to the reader that your safety program need's help & boring for you, get over it.


----------



## ropensaddle

*Safety*

You know hawk here is a view of the problem as I seen it! You get all these rules to follow learn etc. While they are great advice and most of us do learn them they become mute. Why , you ask; because the real problem with corporate safety is usually management. Now before you go to thinking I am meaning they are lacking providing training etc, that is not at all what I am meaning. I spent a great deal of my life within mere feet of minimal 7200 volts and part of it near 500kv. I have seen people die , the one thing that should be regulated the most does not even get mentioned and if it does it gets quickly eye rolled. Many here know about it it is called production requirements. Profit by these corporations must be made in order for them to succeed. The training the troops sign off on ends up a tool to be used in case of accident to sometimes prove negligence by the worker. Until production is slowed to a comfortable pace we will always have catastrophes at corporate level imo. I was expected to climb a tree per man hour when I started in this business to make production. That means if there is two climbers and three ground men the two climbers have to do 5 trees per hour times ten which was 25 each per day. Enter fatigue and by hump day the don't give a crap mode is kicking in full. Want to do something positive for safety climb on corporations production practices !


----------



## ropensaddle

Hawk Pilot said:


> My skin thickness is fine. I'm Not to blame for your Company's Safefty Program or how boring it is and you heard it all before. Debate (continued) offers nothing or has No Vital Message or Good Value to the Reader of this Safety Post (stupid).
> 
> For the 5th time, let's Post actual event's... accidents or close call's, don't do this, this happend to me, my good friend got his finger smashed yesterday ,etc., etc. . Post the type of things that people remember and will make a connection to.
> 
> Who can give the better safety tips... safety admin. folks or the real deal worker that work's out there everyday... we know the answer... dumb to say it " Us ! ! "
> 
> If (anyone) has some great safety tips, and best based on your own or observed expereince's.. lay them on Us. Help someone out and give them a head's Up...don't let this happen to you !
> 
> Keep your personal want's or don't want's to yourself; it's not that useful to the reader that your safety program need's help & boring for you, get over it.


 
I will tell you about an accident that for the life of me feel the guy could not have prevented. It was told to me by an older Asplundh foreman. A climber was doing a removal and spurred up the tree and tied in the climb line. He also set the tag line then repelled down to pop the top! He pulled his climb line out after strapping in. He even retied it to have two tie ins. This tree was a pine that evidently was hit by lightning and fully recovered but was split by the strike and wounds were covered over by the bark. He placed a proper notch and told the ground crew to get a good pull. He yelled headache and started his back cut and before reaching the hinge the tree split and sucked him up briefly scaring him he instinctively grabbed on to the spar. Just as he did the top broke decided to hinge and break free and the other half of the tree closed on both hands crushing them and trapping him in the tree. Several climbers were call to assist in the rescue and had to drive wedges in the split to free the poor man who ended up loosing most of his fingers.


----------



## ropensaddle

ropensaddle said:


> I will tell you about an accident that for the life of me feel the guy could not have prevented. It was told to me by an older Asplundh foreman. A climber was doing a removal and spurred up the tree and tied in the climb line. He also set the tag line then repelled down to pop the top! He pulled his climb line out after strapping in. He even retied it to have two tie ins. This tree was a pine that evidently was hit by lightning and fully recovered but was split by the strike and wounds were covered over by the bark. He placed a proper notch and told the ground crew to get a good pull. He yelled headache and started his back cut and before reaching the hinge the tree split and sucked him up briefly scaring him he instinctively grabbed on to the spar. Just as he did the top broke decided to hinge and break free and the other half of the tree closed on both hands crushing them and trapping him in the tree. Several climbers were call to assist in the rescue and had to drive wedges in the split to free the poor man who ended up loosing most of his fingers.


 Another local logger was nearly killed when he was struck by a widowmaker accidents sometimes are not from being reckless, most are; more are from fatigue.


----------



## Gologit

Hawk Pilot said:


> I'm 62, Been through 3 shooting conflict's that the USA decided to stick their nose in, got shot once out of the 3 trips overseas. Worked all my life, sometimes two jobs and long hours. Proud to say, only one minor injury in 35 years. I not the behind the desk guy (logger, farmer, truck driver on low boy, hvy. equip. mech., UH-60 test pilot, 3 tours as combat pilot, long line hel. pilot, safety officer., FAA Mechanic., etc.) you think I am and the Safety Post was well intended but scarred up by kiddies.
> 
> The Safety Post was a Add-on document for everyone to share in and help others stay out of trouble with personal (I've been there) expereince(s). I have yet to see one post that come's from ... You Expert's.
> 
> I really don't give a dam what happen's from here.. wreck it for other's.
> 
> Safety Works Best for the Folks that have an Open Minded Brain (safety consicious) !
> 
> See Ya, Would Not Like to Know Ya or Be Ya.


 
I think you have good intentions, just poor methodology. When you started your safety post it might have gone over better if you'd let everyone know that it was aimed at people with limited experience.

There are a lot of arborists and loggers here and most of them have been doing their work long enough to realize that safety is important. The professionals resent being lectured by anyone with less experience and real-world knowledge than they have.

You were a Blackhawk pilot. A combat pilot. That's impressive and I appreciate your service. But wouldn't you feel a little resentment if some stranger started lecturing you about how to do an autorotation and it turned out he had fifty hours in an R-22 and had never been shot at in his life?

Lighten up a little and if you want to post a few safety tips or get a dialogue going about injury prevention I don't think anybody would object.

Just don't expect those of us who make our living in this business to take you too seriously until you build up some credibility.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

Lighten Up you say... Your're the Folk's that have a Pecking Order here and Won't Accept a Safety Post and will not take it a step further with the posting of your experience. So, what..I'm a Blackhawk test pilot, combat flying with Task Force 160th (Blk. Hwk. Down unit), helicopter long line flying in mtns., several years of logging, etc. etc. . I only listed this info (above) about me to show that I've been working in the most risky jobs on this earth. I've had (1) minor accident (cut finger) or hurt anyone and very proud of my 43 year safety record. Climbing and tree work ranks in the top ten as well (that was my opening line). 

All this back & forth BS, twisting and turning by the crew here. You just can't have someone post something about Safety and Not be one of the established good ole boys. You all advise me to back off and hang around for a while and just be quiet, infer that after awhile... I might be permitted so say something that's Ok by you all. You wanted me to start at the top of the Safety Food Chain (so my safety post pertains to you all, 100% you). You dont want to read anything else.. just too disruptive to your mind and unbearable to read.. make's you all scream out with mental torture. How many times (five x's now) did I say it was starter post and to add to it.

I said, over & over that if... it's beneath your level, and of No importance to you.. move on. This forum does not have membership requirement's whereas you need 10 + years of experience in the business to be a member or post here. The folks that need safety guidelines are the new guys in the business so.. you would start out the top; and the content of this post is not to one person, so why twist it around. I have three close friend's that have been line men, crew boss's and then supervisors. One just retired and the other about to retire; the third friend put's up the mega towers and just retired last year. We talk a lot and the danger of the business is always a topic. We share our expereince's and always a good exchange of Information. My Point, nearly all my friend's are blue collar and that's my back ground as well (hands on, blue collar), and a safety officer back ground (do the walk and the talk) as well. 

You guy's really show some hard feeling's with your Safety Dept's. and operational requirement's... it's not working for you as I read your post's and complaint's. They're disconnected from you ... they don't know crapp about your job and what you really need out there. I understand that, really, I understand your're disconnect. So get off you butt and do something about it, go to management and present your case. I'm not your Safety Guy and No Money to make with me. 

Contribute your Experience to this Post and Show us your're a Big Time Pro. Help folks that are just starting out. Save their bacon (so to speak) with safety tips, be postive minded. However, If you can't see as far as your nose... move on. I'm Not going anywhere & have invited ya all to send me a pvt. email. Why... show your butt to everyone when it's very apparent to the reader. The real problem is... I'm not one of the crew here. So, you'll take turn's acting miffed, crying about safety types, your failed safety dept., jusy twisting n' turning like a polititian.. just dumb.


----------



## Gologit

Hawk Pilot said:


> Lighten Up you say... Your're the Folk's that have a Pecking Order here and Won't Accept a Safety Post and will not take it a step further with the posting of your experience. So, what..I'm a Blackhawk test pilot, combat flying with Task Force 160th (Blk. Hwk. Down unit), helicopter long line flying in mtns., several years of logging, etc. etc. . I only listed this info (above) about me to show that I've been working in the most risky jobs on this earth. I;ve never had a accident or hurt anyone and very proud of my 43 year safety record. Climbing and tree work ranks in the top ten as well (that was my opening line).
> 
> All this BS, twisting and turning by the crew here .. just can't have someone post something about Safety and Not be one of the established good ole boys. You all advise me to back off and hang around for a while and just be quiet, after awhile I might be permitted so say something that's Ok by you all. You wanted me to start at the top of the Safety Food Chain. You dont want to read anything else.. just too disruptive to your mind and unbearable to read.. make's you all scream out with mental torture. How many times (five x's now) did I say it was starter post and add to it.
> 
> I said, over & over that if... it's beneath your level, and No importance to you.. move on. This forum does not have membership requirement's whereas you need 10 year of experience in the business to be a member or post here. I have three close friend's that have been line men, crew boss's and then supervisors. One just retired and the other about to retire; the third friend put's up the mega towers and just retired last year. We talk a lot and the danger of the business is always a topic, we share our expereince's and always a good exchange of Information. My Point, nearly all my friend's are blue collar and that's my back ground as well (hands on, blue collar), and safety officer back ground (do the walk and the talk).
> 
> You guy's really show some hard feeling's with your Safety Dept's. and operational requirement's... it's not working for you; from your post's and complaint's. They are disconnect from you ... they don't know crapp about your job and what you really need out there. I understand that, really, I understand your're disconnect. So get off you butt and do something about it, go to management and present your case. I'm not your Safety Guy and No Money to make with me.
> 
> Contribute your Experience to this Post and Show us your're a Big Time Pro.. help folks that are just starting out. Save their bacon (so to speak) with safety tips, be postive minded. If you can't see as far as your nose... move on. I'm not going anywhere. I have invited ya all to send me a pvt. email. Why... show your butt to everyone when it's very apparent to the reader... what the real problem is... I'm not one of the crew here. So, you'll take turn's acting miffed, crying about safety types, twisting n' turning like a polititian.. just dumb.


 
I still think you'd do better posting this in the homeowners forum. Or maybe one of those other forums where people compare their scars and scrapes and like to tell war stories about them. 

Most loggers I know don't talk about their injuries and accidents except maybe to each other. A guy might tell about something that happened to him but they usually make it kind of humorous and, even as a cautionary tale, nobody takes offense.

There's plenty of information available to the average saw user about how to stay safe. A lot of it is already here on AS. Most of the members are already aware of that.

Try posting an accident description or maybe even one of your own stories and you'll probably get a good response. But just trying to round everybody up and get them to march off in the direction of your choosing probably won't ever work at all.

Also, pouting, sulking and blame shifting like a whiny child isn't the way to accomplish your goal, either. Don't take yourself so seriously...nobody else does.

So...go or stay, your choice entirely. It would be great if you'd contribute...I think you'd be an asset here. But quit trying to lead until you've established your credibility. Nobody will follow. You'll just wind up making yourself even grumpier than you are now.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

That's the Point, you don't Comunicate !


You Don't Share your Mistake's, mind's are closed, don't have anything to learn from each other. You'll never be part of any working safety program with that type of attitude. You don't have enough base line savy to know your... closed mind attitude and don't talk amoung (working blindly) yourself is your own worst enemy.
Also, none of my friend's that have worked in this business all their life have that aittude or worked that way.. leads me to think that your're not the Pro that you say you are.


Regarding my whiney self, get use to it. I've already seen the result's safety failures from A ot Z. Here's the most frequent one's that I hear... just repeated stupid mistakes: 

I was in hurry, I always got away with it before, I wanted to get off work early, so I took a chance, my buddy showed me how to get'r done quick but risky.. so I was trying to be careful, hey, I never did this job before.. how was I to know I'd get hurt, hey, I've been doing this job for 15 years and s_ _ _ t happens.. get use to it, lot's of us get hurt out here, so what !

I can go on & on and it's always the same, most accident's are preventable. Hey, I'm sorry now, I have a broken body, can't pay the bills now, wife or girl friend left me.. woo is me. I'm not Beating Anyone Down but J C why screw yourself up and swim against the current. Being a close nit group is nothing new and talking about how you do business (be safe) is the true mark of a professional. In the aviation business a 1/2 second mind fart can get you killed or hurt ! I have worked over ground crews time & time again and it's a very dynamic situation. One small mistake by anyone can or will end in a disaster. It's an under statement to point out we are on the same page and 100% of the time. We watch out for each other and depend on each other. We do a lot of prior planning and have our game plan all worked out in advance (always). 

So, there you are.. take it or leave it... you've done a fine job of telling people what Not to Do by your Opposite Approach to Safety. Don't Communicate that much (tips) info. to your co worker's, just keep it to yourself (we just don't talk), they're learn on their own. 

This last post goes full circle to the comment's I have heard time & time again (from Pro's. too) and the most freq. (listed above) saying's from the guys that get hurt out there (just dumb).


----------



## ropensaddle

Gologit said:


> I still think you'd do better posting this in the homeowners forum. Or maybe one of those other forums where people compare their scars and scrapes and like to tell war stories about them.
> 
> Most loggers I know don't talk about their injuries and accidents except maybe to each other. A guy might tell about something that happened to him but they usually make it kind of humorous and, even as a cautionary tale, nobody takes offense.
> 
> There's plenty of information available to the average saw user about how to stay safe. A lot of it is already here on AS. Most of the members are already aware of that.
> 
> Try posting an accident description or maybe even one of your own stories and you'll probably get a good response. But just trying to round everybody up and get them to march off in the direction of your choosing probably won't ever work at all.
> 
> Also, pouting, sulking and blame shifting like a whiny child isn't the way to accomplish your goal, either. Don't take yourself so seriously...nobody else does.
> 
> So...go or stay, your choice entirely. It would be great if you'd contribute...I think you'd be an asset here. But quit trying to lead until you've established your credibility. Nobody will follow. You'll just wind up making yourself even grumpier than you are now.


 
I agree it is home owner helper forum material. I was expecting to read about some poor chap. Instead of being lured into a black hawk safety course. I really admire the service hawk performed he should of focused on that and got a little ice breaking done, asked some questions then posted in the right thread. He still has not told me one thing about why safety steers away from production requirements and fatigue the normal killers of experienced men. A 101 and helper forum answers anything a newbie asks by veterans in one business people that spent all their lives in or cutting trees and use ANZI z 133 and a 300 for safety should be the answers they get.


----------



## Gologit

ropensaddle said:


> I agree it is home owner helper forum material. I was expecting to read about some poor chap. Instead of being lured into a black hawk safety course. I really admire the service hawk performed he should of focused on that and got a little ice breaking done, asked some questions then posted in the right thread. He still has not told me one thing about why safety steers away from production requirements and fatigue the normal killers of experienced men. A 101 and helper forum answers anything a newbie asks by veterans in one business people that spent all their lives in or cutting trees and use ANZI z 133 and a 300 for safety should be the answers they get.


 
Yup. I agree. Hawk just doesn't quite get it. He wants us all to follow his lead and do as he says. But he's not much of a role model. The best leaders I ever saw _lead by example._ They didn't whine, they didn't snivel, and they could do the job. They could communicate, too.

I think Hawk ought to concentrate on aviation stuff and leave us to do what we do best. He's trying to save us from ourselves. We're already pretty good at that.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

The avaition example was not in the Army or in Black Hawks. It was about the inspection of power lines and sling (long line) loading gold ore out of the mountains at 8,800 feet. About working with ground crews and hooking up & rigging. About the results of a 1/2 sec. mistake time and your toast when flying over (inspecting) or repairing high tension cables. About being being 100% connected with the folks on the ground and knowing extactly what each other is doing and always heads up. Looking out for each other, about reading each others mind (body language) because one wrong move by anyone can get someone hurt or killed. 

I doubt seriously if anyone is discussing this level of work or vital need for safety on the home shopping forum. Hey, your working with your groundee.. same deal right 1/2 sec mind fart and your toast.. right.. so we're working on the same level and close nit group.. not a army thing. However we talk and plan and discuss safety measures everyday, have safety reg's a foot deep. However, the Pro's. approach we use is always about communication between us. If we hear about an accident that happened to another crew somewhere we make sure we don't make that same mistake. 

Remember Mr. Pro. we don't talk that much about our mistake's (your words)... it's between us... this has to be dumbest thing I've ever heard said.. by a would be Professional and I've heard a lot of B S in my life time.

Just keep your post's coming .. you're doing a fine job of showing folks .. What Not to Do (your opposite approach) and what a Stupid BS looks like in Black & White.

You're Contributing.. and doing a Fine Job. I'm right here, I never back up to anyone and especially so when the... Message is 100% Correct and Directed to One's Overall Safety Knowledge !


----------



## Hawk Pilot

It's a Reading Man's (and Women) World.

You can nit pick here or there and off load to aviation that may be considered out of the box for the you climber guy's. However, we al know that Safety and it's day to day practice is a univeral language. I worked for several years in the woods and did tree removal around power lines, cut bad (hollow, rotten, leaners) tree's that were tricky to cut. I know what's going on out there (retired 04) and back out there again with my equipment (2 dozers, CAT 977 high lift, 4 WD IHC Hoe, 2 sawmills, 5 chain saws, KW tractor & trailer, GMC Util. Line truck, Mack Loader truck, IHC Tri-axle dump and misc. support equipment. So don't think your're talking to someone that's not in the business or has a knowledge base that detached from you guys. Again, it's Not about me or anyone in person, it's about spreading the word. 

It's a Fools Quest to twist and turn and disconnect one's self from any Post that was started in the Best Interest of Safety and Spreading the Word. 

Was it too hard to Post your own Experience's to Promote a Heads Up Tip to the New Guys ? This close nit group crapp (No Como.) does not fly with me. Everyone talk's about the mistake's they make and huy'ee to say otherwise. I know and everyone else reading this .. know's... you call a spade a spade, you say that accident was a real boner, I / or they scewed up etc. etc. . 

You've all about ruined this post with repeated B S. This post has become a stupid back forth with nothing to result. However, you (all) really showed your butt in the process and that' all on your shoulder's. If some Good Heads Up Post's were mad here ... it could have made a difference for someone (safety wise).


----------



## jefflovstrom

Hey Hawk, you know what it takes to become TCIA CTSP?
Jeff
CTSP #519
Even I don't come here to preach.


----------



## Gologit

Golly, Hawk...does this mean we won't be getting a Christmas card from you?

Hey, one question. When you were in the service, were you a WO?


----------



## beowulf343

Lol, i can't believe this thread is still alive!

Here's my problem with you hawkpilot, you tell us about all the experience you have, all the equipment you own, all the jobs you've done, and the hundred's of accident victims and witnesses you've interviewed, and yet you don't give us a single personal safety experience pertaining to tree work (since this is a tree forum last i checked), but keep asking everyone to post _their_ experiences. I can't even get something as simple as wear chaps when running a saw from you. To me, you come off as either a high school kid looking for information to write a report about injuries in the arborist world, or you get some sick pleasure off hearing about other people hurting themselves. (And i honestly think there are a couple of those kind of people around this site.) 
I've got to agree with gologit, i've spent all of my life around loggers and climbers and while talk of accidents happens, you practically never hear it from the guy it happened to. Around here, we all know about the guy who scraped off his basket while in it, the guy who messed up on a stem and had to have his leg amputated, or the guy who fell out of a tree and is paralyzed at the waist. I know all three of these guys personally, yet have never heard them go on about what happened. What do you say? I'm not going to go up to any of these guys and say "you were a real idiot and that was a stupid move," like you seem to think i should.


Hawk Pilot said:


> . I know and everyone else reading this .. know's... you call a spade a spade, you say that accident was a real boner, I / or they scewed up etc. etc.


 I think they know this and my seeing them have to live with their mistake is a lot more eye opening than a few words written down here. Yeah, i once in a while mention one of these guys to a newbie i'm breaking in if i see them doing one of the things that messed up my buddies, but repeating it constantly has a lesser effect in my opinion. You mention it once, and the newbie listens, you keep harping on it and they starrt rolling their eyes every time you mention it.
But these are the big accidents, a lot of the little crap accidents aren't worth going on about simply because it's just a lack of common sense-example, i cut a finger sharpening my 395 this morning, am i going to go on about how i should have been using gloves to my groundies? Of course not, they already know this and i'm actually the stupid one for not wearing them and thus needed the lesson. 
Also, i've trained a few climbers over the years, and they are a stubborn, arrogant group. I'm the same way, you can preach and preach to me that the stove is hot, but i won't pay attention until i put my hand on it, i'm just stupid that way i guess. The safety lessons i've taken closest to heart over the years are ones i had to learn the hard way unfortunately.

And on a side note, i don't like to hear about this crap happening to other climbers! I'm glad they don't talk about it! I've got to go up and be put in the exact same situation that got them messed up on a daily basis. If i really thought about it, i'd probably be a nervous wreck. 

I do have a question for you though, about not working when you are not feeling good. I was working with a woman bucket op last week who was #####ing about cramps. Should she have been sent home until she was off the rag?


I do think an excellent safety example is the thread right below this one about the guy killed by a train. That's a good reminder for me, we work along tracks several times a year and after not seeing a train all day, it's easy to get complacent.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

Just Keep It Coming, Love it, You Guys are the Best Un-Pro's. I Know ! ! 

I could have never hoped that... I'd get the great response from the crew membership to show the true professionals (readers) how some of the member's view safety. How closed minded they are to Safety Tips and to anyone bringing up a point of view or suggest an open forum response to Share their Work Experience (what works, what doesn't).

Regarding me .... What I see is ... little children, you run your mouth and don't have clue about my experience level. I add in my experience to level the playing (only then) field. After that... you continue on like your something special and above (other than homee crew) everyone & anyone. I have learned to be humble and you never see my listing of what I own like a lot of folks, it's not my style. I list my qualification's & years of experience when it's becomes necessary to establish myself as a real player in the business (blue collar). 

So go ahead just jump on me and don't forget to respect my mil. service... just more BS. Your such a brave bunch, I have yet to get a (1) PM or a request for my email address, just ask & you'll receive. I guess you get a life through this forum. I never mothered anyone or jamed a thing down anyone's throat and was low key. I just opened a general safety topic and ran into a few malicious folks and nothing good from them but endless B S. 

Keep the Stupid Post's Coming, Child Psychiatry seems to work very well with some of the adolescent's here.

Hey Mr. Wulf.. I was hoping to see some of the tip's you were thinking about posting here, still thinking about it ? Really, I'd like to see your word's of (tips) wisdom. I'd have nothing to say that was neg., unless you were completely wrong, that's a fair deal.

Closing.. bring it on the attack and as often as you can. Make sure you don't post anything of value foranyone here. Please, dont lose interest and continue to show your butt, let's shoot for a 150 posts or more. 

You Make my Day


----------



## jefflovstrom

Hawk, If I had any respect for you you, it is gone! You sure are and Idiot with too much time and a keyboard!
Jeff Lovstrom


----------



## Hawk Pilot

Your Absolutely Right.. No Respect at All.

I replied to the B S posted here, what did you expect... turn tail and watch some kidde's play brain games that were P_ _ _ _ _ g on my leg and telling me it's raining. I dam well know what I'm about. I'm Not too sure about some others, great pretenders I think.... from the B S they have said (ain't even close to right) and Anti-Professional. ! I have close friend's and one is 2nd generation power co. line man (covered in last post) and they have all spent their entire life in the business. I know the difference (current day) through them and my own experience as well. I know the real score and some real BSing is going on here (no doubt about it). 

So Kid's.... keep the attack up ! Please, don't post anything of value here. Don't share anything of value (Pro's Knowledge) to help anyone new in the business or the more experienced guys that have forgotten things or could use a reminder. 

Don't try to beat me down, it won't happen in your life time. You'll never cover me up or shut me up with the little (inner circle) gang up technique. I saw how things were going around the 10th post. Your twisted or stupid B S just make's me smile and semi intertaining and likewise to others (I assume). 

Closing -- about the tenth time.. I mentioned this.... do something of value here. Your a little off track .. If you think I care about anyone's respect for me at this point..coming from one of the kiddie's here. If you do think that I care... then check you leg for wetness and see if it's raining outside. 

You Make My Day

P.S. Keep the Intertainment Coming but Don't Post Anything of Value, Would Ruin your Image as (close nit) Professionals.


----------



## Gologit

Hawk...I asked you before but you must have forgot to answer. When you were in the Army were you a WO? Just curious.

And when you were a test pilot on Blackhawks...was that as a production test pilot doing prototype work or were you just flying off maintenance squawks in a line unit.

I figured that, since we've pretty much determined that your safety thing makes you look like an idiot, you might want to talk about something else.


----------



## ropensaddle

jefflovstrom said:


> Hawk, If I had any respect for you you, it is gone! You sure are and Idiot with too much time and a keyboard!
> Jeff Lovstrom


 
Yeah I sorta lost that too. Service to country, he gets that but to try and insult some of the best knowledge and experience our industry has is silly. We all have helped newbies in here with industry approved material and practice. I think he just likes the big shot role myself. jmo.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

Yep, I'm a Idiot and the Subject is Safety for Kidde Idiot's.

How many times would an Idiot have to say that the 1st Post from me was to open the door to others... to add-on to this post. The follow on subject is: Accident Prevention and / or Awareness, Include's Operational How To (if desired). We have thousand's (from members) of real life examples of minor to serious accident examples and some of them are funny because No one was seriously hurt.

J C.. was not a lecture why flip this Safety Topic upside down when it should or could have been a lot of " Valued Information brought out to the membership. " Also, I expected a few chuckles because we all make mistake's and must laugh at ourself when injury's are not involved. 


Regarding my 32 yr. mil. (AD, Guard & Resv.) back ground, PM me and I'll talk about it, otherwise, not the issue at hand and what difference does it make to (like) Idiots ?


----------



## Gologit

Hawk Pilot said:


> Yep, I'm a Idiot and the Subject is Safety.
> 
> How many times would an Idiot have to say that the 1st Post was to open the door to others to add on to this post. The follow on subject is Accident Prevention and / or Awareness. We have thousand's (from members) of real life examples and some of them are funny because No one was seriously hurt.
> 
> J C.. was not a lecture why flip this Safety Topic upside down when it should or could have been the a lot of " Valued Information brought out to the membership. " Also, I expected a few chuckles because we all make mistake's and must laugh at ourself when injury's are not involved.
> 
> Regarding my 32 yr. mil. (AD, Guard & Resv.) back ground, PM me and I'll talk about it, otherwise, not the issue at hand and what difference does it make to (like) Idiots ?


 
Just curious. We have a lot of vets here and a lot of them are about our age. We have quite a few pilots too. 

I sometimes work for a helicopter logging outfit and I know for sure a couple of the pilots flew Blackhawks. Maybe they know you, or you them. One of them mentioned being in the same unit that had the BlackHawk Down incident. Didn''t you say that was your unit, too?

And...you were quite vocal about your military service and being a pilot and all. I thought maybe you'd want to let us know a little more. If, indeed, there really is more to tell.


I won't PM you because I'd like to keep this dialogue public. No need to keep anything secret. I think the membership pretty much has you figured out but a little more input from you will probably help a few of them make up their mind.


----------



## ropensaddle

Hawk Pilot said:


> Yep, I'm a Idiot and the Subject is Safety for Kidde Idiot's.
> 
> How many times would an Idiot have to say that the 1st Post from me was to open the door to others... to add-on to this post. The follow on subject is: Accident Prevention and / or Awareness, Include's Operational How To (if desired). We have thousand's (from members) of real life examples of minor to serious accident examples and some of them are funny because No one was seriously hurt.
> 
> J C.. was not a lecture why flip this Safety Topic upside down when it should or could have been a lot of " Valued Information brought out to the membership. " Also, I expected a few chuckles because we all make mistake's and must laugh at ourself when injury's are not involved.
> 
> 
> Regarding my 32 yr. mil. (AD, Guard & Resv.) back ground, PM me and I'll talk about it, otherwise, not the issue at hand and what difference does it make to (like) Idiots ?


 
We are supposed to assume your a good judge of idiots. I have refrained from calling you anything out of some respect for your service. I am at a loss for words to describe you so I won't even try. I will ask how many times have you done this?


----------



## Hawk Pilot

Thye 1st time was the toping out of two huge white pines at my family home, ten ft. from the house. I took about 25 feet out of the two front yard tree's. The 2nd time was a tree next to the highway and took it down in 5 to 10 ft. increments. No where to drop anything, so straped it and droped it down... 1 pc. at at time. The 3rd time was a huge Weeping Willow and a simliar deal but was able to get enough height off the top to drop it next to the highway. About 45 inches across and rotten, dangerous to cut. I've been doing this work since I was 15 and had to work alone. Risky (no mistakes) to work alone in the woods but no one else but me, my dad worked away during the day.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

I did send out my Mil. (basic) Service out by PM and it is my confidential back ground that has (nearly) zero to do with the Safety Topic..

Mil. Jobs - Safety Officer, Training Off, Security Off., Maint. Off., Operations Off., Property Book Off. and all the add-on duties that comes along when your in the military.

The Safety Officer back ground was used in this topic for my qualification and that's all. I used my Hawk ID because I like the handle part of it. The avaition examles are from the Commerical Operations and Nothing to with Army. 

Also, it does not matter about my Mil. back ground, this entire post is in regard to Safety and Helping Others, and to Pass on your Safety Tips !

Some of you are B S'rrr's. and could care less about my mil. service so don't worry about it or blow smoke up my back side. I don't care what you think after neg. & repeated posts. The line is drawn in the sand and I'm standing right here ! I have yet to get a PM from any of you brave folks so it's all about the showing your back side and stupid on & on.. bla bla bla (just nuts). 

Post as Much and as Often as You can, show me how much B S you can sling that's not worth a lot, just a personal attack on me and shows your true self to the members here. Continue to go off the topic and say a lot of huyee crapp that means Nothing.

I really like to see some Posts that outlined a problem you ran into. How you cut the tree or job X ?. If a incident (accident) happened, what happened and why ? How did you fix or handle the problem from there ? Add your experience's and spread the word, post some pictures (worth a 1000 words). Hey Pro's... How difficult would that be to do ?

Closing.. if a couple good posts were added (suggested above) here ... as intended from day one.... I'd Edit Out all my posts but the 1st one and this Safety Post could be a Winner with Lot's of Meat (value) for Everyone (and few funny posts as well) ! ! !


----------



## Hawk Pilot

Thank You for Your Kind Post

Don't Offer or Provide Good Operating Advice to anyone that could use it. 

Read the Post from the beginning and only an Idiot could not figure out the purpose in all the BS and twisting and turning that occurred and for Nothing of Value. I said, that I'd Edit Out all my Posts but the 1st. My ego is not inflated... but Not Spineless and will not bow down to a few little mindless B S'rr's. 

Perhaps... No one has any Safety or Operational Tips to share, still thinking (one of you said he was thinking). So put up or shut up... if Not keep the attack's coming, I'm right here and smiling. Also, No PM's. yet, that speak's s volumes, quite a brave bunch.


----------



## ropensaddle

Hawk Pilot said:


> I did send out my Mil. (basic) Service out by PM and it is my confidential back ground that has (nearly) zero to do with the Safety Topic..
> 
> Mil. Jobs - Safety Officer, Training Off, Security Off., Maint. Off., Operations Off., Property Book Off. and all the add-on duties that comes along when your in the military.
> 
> The Safety Officer back ground was used in this topic for my qualification and that's all. I used my Hawk ID because I like the handle part of it. The avaition examles are from the Commerical Operations and Nothing to with Army.
> 
> Also, it does not matter about my Mil. back ground, this entire post is in regard to Safety and Helping Others, and to Pass on your Safety Tips !
> 
> Some of you are B S'rrr's. and could care less about my mil. service so don't worry about it or blow smoke up my back side. I don't care what you think after neg. & repeated posts. The line is drawn in the sand and I'm standing right here ! I have yet to get a PM from any of you brave folks so it's all about the showing your back side and stupid on & on.. bla bla bla (just nuts).
> 
> Post as Much and as Often as You can, show me how much B S you can sling that's not worth a lot, just a personal attack on me and shows your true self to the members here. Continue to go off the topic and say a lot of huyee crapp that means Nothing.
> 
> I really like to see some Posts that outlined a problem you ran into. How you cut the tree or job X ?. If a incident (accident) happened, what happened and why ? How did you fix or handle the problem from there ? Add your experience's and spread the word, post some pictures (worth a 1000 words). Hey Pro's... How difficult would that be to do ?
> 
> Closing.. if a couple good posts were added (suggested above) here ... as intended from day one.... I'd Edit Out all my posts but the 1st one and this Safety Post could be a Winner with Lot's of Meat (value) for Everyone (and few funny posts as well) ! ! !


 
Pictures are worth a thousand words lets see one of you in a tree! The pics of the tree growing out of the roof only show part of the difficulty on that job. This view will show the 12.5kv power line three phase less than ten foot from this tree. It had limbs that an average climber could not attempt. There are many here that can handle the job but most of them would admit it was difficult at best.








I am glad you feel your helping with safety but really it would be better in home owner helper forum. That is where you might do some good. I am certain you have tips and worthy advice but the best advice is get a job with a good company that has a great safety training program.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

Picture's are worth a 1000 word's and thanks for sharing. I agree that the job you did was difficult and took careful planning and the work is the mark of a Professional.

I keep reading this Home Forurm crapp and they need to see the advice but not Us.

I strongly disagree, I have not worked at that (homee cutter) level since I was 18, really since I was 15 but turned Pro at 18 < little Jokee). 

J C, some of you are getting hurt out there everyday. One you said we're
a close nit (secret society- joke) group and don't talk about your accident's. 
Remind's me of the Navy Seals they're a close nit group & don't talk much; maybe a lot of retired Seals are here. Also, Eskomo's ther're a very close nit.. they don't talk to white man because he always lie and take our land {not a little joke'ee for them).
'
I stated and it's a fact-jack... most folks don't read and heed a lot of wriiten text and remember it and/ or use it. However, when they hear and/ or read of an actual accident.. most of us remember it for a long time, if it's severe enough and affected them.. will remember it for a life time. 

I'll give you an example and it's about the death of a co-worker.

In 79/81 I worked as a diesel mechanic for large equipment & earth mover co. in PA. I went to lunch and came back and found out that a co-worked was (partially) decapitated and had passed the ambulance on my back from lunch. He was the tire guy and was working on a split rim truck tire. We had a company policy to rap the tire with a big 5/8 dia. link chain and doubled up to guard against the rim or tire blowing off the rim. 

My co-worked did not use the chain because he had done 100's of tires and knew what he was doing. Well, he's dead now and the split rim cut most of head off and still had enough power to go another 24 feet and put big mark in the top of the ceiling. So what cause this accident ? He knew his job so well, he took a chance and did not use the safety device. He died at the scene and left behind a wife and three children; they ended up with no income and no Hubby or Father. 

Today, we have safety cages that we roll our tires into but it's still dangerous to inflate the big tires. When they blow, it's like a shot gun explosion with bits of rubber & steel cording blowing out at high veloicity. Some of you will say.. I dont care and not about my job. If you service truck tires by ... just airing them up... your'e at risk. If you have broken belts in your tire (from running flat) and air it up.. you stand a fair chance of a blow out in your face or body. I learned this at truck stop.. regarding broken belts from running one of my tires flat on the trailer with 30 ton hoe on it. The tire guy showed me how the tire side wall was deformed and the tire was high risk to blow out (junk tire). So, I learned something about tires when I was 55 YO. I had aired up flat tires before and one of them blew a few miles down the road.. now I know why, it coud have happened to me (but did not know this).

I nmentioned the inspection of your riging gear in my 1st post. I loaned out my 2 ton chain hoist (the hand rachet type) to guy and he brought it back a week later. I used it to pick up a 1 1/2 V-8 diesel about a week later. We all know to never get under a load because something can happen at any time. I had just lifted the 1 1/2 diesel and postioned support blocks under it to let it down upon them. I had just reached up on my tippy toes to begin to let the eng. down with the hoist rachet handle and the engine (without warning) dropped like a 1 1/2 ton stone. The engine caught the end of my foot and sheared off the (left foot) tip of my big toe. I was 1/2 inch off from beng clear of the diesel engine if it fell down. 

I screwed by 1/2 inch., if I had steel toes on. it may have crushed or sheared off all my toe's. Later, I inspected the hook and found a hair line crack in the metal that showed a older break. I knew that I never miss used this 2 ton chain rachet hoist. It should have handled the 1 1/2 ton load with ease. I called the guy I loaned it to and asked what he was using the chain hoist for ? He had put a motor in his pick up and got one of his tractor trailer trucks stuck and used it to pull the other one out. That's where he over stessed the chain hoist hook by... jerking on it and over loading it by pulling a 5 ton truck around. 

So who (you guys) cares, does not apply to you but it may. We depend on our gear 100% and that includes everything we use out there. I have a GMC line truck that I use for everything, has the standard conf. -- front winch, 8 ton boom, auger, pole setter, extending boom to 65 ft. I had a accident with it and it's (sort of) funny now but not at the time. I had cut up a large pine that blown down next to my equip. shop. Not a big deal, bull dozed the remaining roots off and lifted it up with my GMC Utilty truck crane. I knew it was going to be heavy with all the dirt on the roots and all. I picked it up and rested it against the back center of the truck and thought it was good to go there. I only need to go a 100 feet or so. I could doze up to the burn pile with other blown over trees's. However, when I moved about 50 feet the ground had a slight slant to the left side of the truck. The tree started to move in that direction. I had turned off the pto and the crane was now free to rotate with the hyd. pressure off. Like in slow motion the tree shifted to the left side of the truck and up set on the driver side. I watched all this happen in disbelief and could not react quick enough. I braced for the up set as the tree move out further to the side (left) and it started to lean over quite a bit and then rolled over. No big time damage, the left mirror was smashed, cab was crunched and windshield cracked. I pulled the truck back over with the winch from one of my dozer and it works fine but non highway use. 

So what did I learn, everyday we run into all types of situations and multi-decisions to make. I should have winched the tree trunk down the road with the dozer. I did'nt do this because I did not want to tear up my nice gravel road with the dozer tracks and rut it with the big tree trunk and drop off dirt as well. 

I miss used my GMC Line truck and had a accident. If the accident had happend ten more feet up the road it would have up set on a big hoe bucket and crushed threw the door and crushed me in the cab. You guys power co. guys depend on your truck and it's proper operation everyday. Sometimes you use it go pass it's operational limits because you get.. stuck, winched up a steep grade and start working to get out of trouble. During this process your cable, chains, hooks, rings, etc. are stressed over their rating and weakened if they did not break. My message, inspect them closely, if your fairly sure they're over stressed, get them off the truck, paint them red or organge and make sure they don't get back in the system. The truck crane is certified and lifting gear as well.. so don't take a chance on damaged gear. 

The chain hoist deal .. don't lend your equipment out and have it over stressed and then returned to you and get hurt with it. Never get under any load or in harm's way when a chain or cable or rope break's. Setting the brakes on a truck and having it run away is aways a posibility. We have chocks and all that but are ineffective when the truck is on a steep slope and wet slippery conditions where the ground gives way. I always tie off to two different hold point's.. if possible. 

I have a lot of info. from other accidents that happend to people I knew, most are about loggers and they read this forum everyday and not home forum folks. None of the accidents I covered were pertaining to the home forum.. so don't suggest stupid B S. 

Just for the hell of it. How many knew or read in the home forum about airing up flat truck tires that have been run flat too (busted belts) long. About the danger of and having your face down there.. it blowing out and taking out your eye or eyes or your hand or whatever. How about your gear, have you bought some nice gear on Craigslist or else where and it looked good. However.. what may have happened to it before you got it (over stressed) and now you trust your life on this gear because it was a good deal. How many of you are using chains and cables that are over stress and you can tell this because the links are funky and stretched out and your're still using this chain because it has not broken yet { did you read that on the home forum too).

You climber guys have a lot of knowledge to share and would or could save folks from getting injured or worst. Also, just day to day to examples of what work's and what does'nt... the operational stuff is good information. We all face .. dynamic situations and some are real tricky and down right dangerous. The risk factor is high and it's heads up time, don't even think about making a mistake. Really, knowing when to walk away is the smart choice. Bring in bigger equipment or more help, get the boss involved if that's a option. We all learn something everyday, it's a shame to waste information that may help the newer or older guys a long.

Now if I was the high and mighty type... I'd never talk about my boner's. I will talk about anything (accident) that will help someone from making the same mistakes. 

Some of you will not be airing up truck tires that were run flat and taking the risk of the side wall blowing out. Also, some you will be heads up to know if the hdy. power or the engine is turned off, the crane can rotate around.. could get you in trouble. The 3rd.. if your gear has been over stressed, I bet some of you have stretched chains and the like and will get it off the truck. 

Also, it was mentioned that I can't edit out my post's after 24 hours, the admin. folks could do that with my request.


----------



## jefflovstrom

One of my biggest pet peeves is a guy that don't tell me on Friday he dropped a log on his toe and on Monday decides he needs to go to the clinic on WC. How do I know if he hurt it on his weekend?
Jeff


----------



## ropensaddle

jefflovstrom said:


> One of my biggest pet peeves is a guy that don't tell me on Friday he dropped a log on his toe and on Monday decides he needs to go to the clinic on WC. How do I know if he hurt it on his weekend?
> Jeff


 
You don't but then if he is tough enough to wait till Monday he should be tough enough to work ehhhhhh?


----------



## jefflovstrom

ropensaddle said:


> You don't but then if he is tough enough to wait till Monday he should be tough enough to work ehhhhhh?


 
Good one! 
Jeff


----------



## ropensaddle

jefflovstrom said:


> Good one!
> Jeff


 
I have heard them all Jeff lol the boys thought they had a day alone because I had to get a wisdom tooth cut out. I came to work to their astonishment got them started and went to the dentist and two hours later back to the grind stone. I have worked with broken wrist because, I got in some stupid fight over the weekend. It is hard to climb with a fractured wrist but I managed. I crashed end over end in a vehicle crushed left scapula broke both collar bones dislocated right shoulder, broke two ribs and punctured a lung and possible fracture in a vertebrae. I was off 3 months was told I might not be able to climb, climbed first day back. I pulled a motor for my dad in those three months I was off and many other things. I just love the ones saying I can't climb cause of some injury , I grab there arms then look at their legs and say no your just chicken is all.


----------



## beowulf343

Hawk Pilot said:


> How many of you are using chains and cables that are over stress and you can tell this because the links are funky and stretched out and your're still using this chain because it has not broken yet { did you read that on the home forum too).



I'm going to field this one, if you don't mind. While it isn't popular with many here, i prefer chain slings and use them on a daily basis. While visual inspection is important, i'm surprised you didn't mention checking the reach. I've had chains over the reach limit that looked perfect. If i used just your method, that chain would have been potentially unsafe. I also keep a pair of calipers on the truck to measure chain thickness at wear points-at a certain minimum, the chain must be taken out of service. So while visual inspection does have it's place, there are other inspection methods just as important.
And secondly, if i were so bad at my job that i was overloading my chains regularly and causing visual deformities, how long do you think i'd have my job? Abusing chains to the point that you can see the actual deformities is not the mark of a pro........ but it is something homeowners do.

This is why some have told you to preach in homeowners. Not all of us are neanderthals. I've red flagged chains for minuscule deformities. I've had nearly new chains re certified because of an obsessive compulsive worry about a tiny problem or flaw, or even a bad shift or jerk on a load. If my chains actually reached the point that you are talking about, i'd be embarrassed beyond reason. I work with my chains and trust my life to them every day, believe me, they get inspected and more thoroughly than just visually.


----------



## jefflovstrom

ropensaddle said:


> I have heard them all Jeff lol the boys thought they had a day alone because I had to get a wisdom tooth cut out. I came to work to their astonishment got them started and went to the dentist and two hours later back to the grind stone. I have worked with broken wrist because, I got in some stupid fight over the weekend. It is hard to climb with a fractured wrist but I managed. I crashed end over end in a vehicle crushed left scapula broke both collar bones dislocated right shoulder, broke two ribs and punctured a lung and possible fracture in a vertebrae. I was off 3 months was told I might not be able to climb, climbed first day back. I pulled a motor for my dad in those three months I was off and many other things. I just love the ones saying I can't climb cause of some injury , I grab there arms then look at their legs and say no your just chicken is all.



Not apples to apples, Rope. I am talking about a crew member not reporting an injury immediately. Doesn't want to say nothing about his hurt toe. Goes home and limps around a friday nite and Saturday morning the daughter see's her Dad is limping and a purple toe. So you get the call--"Hi, how long can I wait to report an injury?
Fun stuff, :angry2:
Jeff


----------



## ropensaddle

jefflovstrom said:


> Not apples to apples, Rope. I am talking about a crew member not reporting an injury immediatly. Doesn't want to say nothig about his hurt toe. Goes home and limps around a friday nite and Saturday morning the daughter see's her Dad is limping and a purple toe. So you get the call--"Hi, how long can I wait to report an injury?
> Fun stuff, :angry2:
> Jeff


 
Yes Jeff, I have experienced those things twenty years and I made them pay. I told them the truth. I told the men about my work ethic and how sorry it was to wuss out. I have had men hurt them selves water skiing, come in and claim they hurt their back at work. It is corporations that cause the crap , corporate welfare. I have seen all sorts of #### go on in big companies especially nepotism which caused me to quit a job I was at 13 years. Love your job Jeff but never quite count on it to be there.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

J C for the 7th time, it's not about You or Me. 

If you inspect your gear with a 10 X mag. glass or send it out for Xray.. your're Golden. If you changed out all your gear before it show's any sign of wear (time change out) .. you're Golden. 

However, this post is Not about You specifically and (nearly) none of the examples discuss anything that is applcable to a home owner. Were not running our lawn mowers or using the little 34 CC chain saw to cut fire wood or pruning the limbs on the step ladder with our pruning saw... are we ? 

I would think that with your're high level of itelligences.. could grasp the fact that this Post was Intended to apply from the lowest to the highest level of work experience. If your a close nit group and don't share your work expereince's why spoil a post for others.. just huy'ee B S. If you're way out their The Top Pro. and it's just too basic for you...then move on. I know you knew about-- airing up flat tires (the danger); what happen's when the hdy's are turned off, engine stops or elec. power is turned off and you're using the truck and boomed out (did'nt you) under load ? 

J C, be Fair & Square, be Postive, it's Not about You or Me. If you have problem with me.. . then PM me, I'll talk to on the telephone if you'd like. Don't take cheap shots.. does nothing for your Top Pro Image.


----------



## jefflovstrom

ropensaddle said:


> Yes Jeff, I have experienced those things twenty years and I made them pay. I told them the truth. I told the men about my work ethic and how sorry it was to wuss out. I have had men hurt them selves water skiing, come in and claim they hurt their back at work. It is corporations that cause the crap , corporate welfare. I have seen all sorts of #### go on in big companies especially nepotism which caused me to quit a job I was at 13 years. Love your job Jeff but never quite count on it to be there.


 
You are fortunate not to live in California!
Jeff 
I do love my job.


----------



## Gologit

*Hey Hawk Pilot*

Uh, could you please use SpellCheck? Or get a dictionary? Or take a short course in sentence structure? Maybe work on the punctuation a little? And there's really no need to capitalize so many words. Your posts are becoming ever more incoherent.

I mean, damn.


----------



## jefflovstrom

Gologit said:


> Uh, could you please use SpellCheck? Or get a dictionary? Or take a short course in sentence structure? Maybe work on the punctuation a little? And there's really no need to capitalize so many words. Your posts are becoming ever more incoherent.
> 
> I mean, damn.


 
You really got a hair up your arse,huh? Are you mad or angry at someone you don't know or like? Hey, he's hanging seems like, ease up.
Jeff


----------



## ropensaddle

jefflovstrom said:


> You are fortunate not to live in California!
> Jeff
> I do love my job.


 
Yeah I know , I could not communicate the only thing that ain't a cuss word I know is undalay vahto. Of course that really should be all I have to tell them.


----------



## Gologit

jefflovstrom said:


> You really got a hair up your arse,huh? Are you mad or angry at someone you don't know or like? Hey, he's hanging seems like, ease up.
> Jeff


 
LOLOLOL...I agree, old Hawk is hanging right in there. That must be good for something. Not quite sure what, though. 
He's got you defending him and I'll bet that makes him feel good.

And, as to whether I ease up on somebody or not...I'll make that decision without any guidance from you. I do appreciate the effort, though.


----------



## ozzy42

Toddppm said:


> Sounds like the boys in Florida. I hear they can't get to work if it's going to be good fishing.
> Went out on a charter boat a couple days during the week when I was down there one time and was a couple of young guys on the boat both days that skipped work:biggrinbounce2:


 

Well.....yeah..........DUH
Work is for people who don't know how to fish:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## Toddppm

A bad day fishing is better than a good day at work....I don't fish much anymore so I substitute riding instead. 



Hawk, you could have just left the title of the thread "Safety is no accident" and not added anything else and we would all have gained just as much.


----------



## Hawk Pilot

You're a 100% Right Nothing to Share or Help Anyone, that's the Result, Speak's Volume's from the Pro's. !


----------



## ropensaddle

Hawk Pilot said:


> You're a 100% Right Nothing to Share or Help Anyone, that's the Result, Speak's Volume's from the Pro's. !


 
Interested in safety get the tree climbers companion, a copy of anzi z133 and a300, got a specific question, ask it in arborist 101. Hawk go read through many of the 101 threads there has always been great advice here, why do we need anything else?


----------



## jefflovstrom

ropensaddle said:


> Interested in safety get the tree climbers companion, a copy of anzi z133 and a300, got a specific question, ask it in arborist 101. Hawk go read through many of the 101 threads there has always been great advice here, why do we need anything else?


 
Tried to rep ya, Rope.
Jeff :newbie:


----------



## Rickochet

Just because a guy has 6,000 posts doesn't mean he knows crap. I have seen many guys blast out crazy thoughts and then someone thinks they are knowledgeable because they have had a ton of posts. Not the case.... it is often that the guy with the biggest motor mouth knows the least. 

I think the OP's message was well thought out and presented to make us all think about what we are doing. There's a lot of rookies on this site that needs the wisdom from all of us.

Be safe AND use wisdom!


----------



## ropensaddle

Rickochet said:


> Just because a guy has 6,000 posts doesn't mean he knows crap. I have seen many guys blast out crazy thoughts and then someone thinks they are knowledgeable because they have had a ton of posts. Not the case.... it is often that the guy with the biggest motor mouth knows the least.
> 
> I think the OP's message was well thought out and presented to make us all think about what we are doing. There's a lot of rookies on this site that needs the wisdom from all of us.
> 
> Be safe AND use wisdom!


 
Good point but our forums have sections like home owner,101,etc. This one is set for deaths and injury's a wise individual posts in the proper place right?


----------



## Hawk Pilot

Yep, Your're Right 100%, Not Much Happening Here on this Post that's Productive.

The Post was Not About Me or You, Did I Not Say that at Least Ten Time's ! ! ! 

It was about what could be added on to the Saftey Post. However, you little kiddee's just kept going around and twisting words and trying to get your little lick's in on a personal attack. I always met you head on and slammed in back in your face because BS is BS. I never got one PM from any of you brave bunch. It's very apparent to me that you get your life through this forum, speaks volume's as well.

However, if you every worked on my crew.. I don't think it would be for long. I alway's ask the crew if the new guy has what it take's to be one of the crew. I'm not going to judge you 100% and it's unfair to do so. However, I think you may have fit into this catergory (because of your post's) These are the crew comment's that I'd expect back from someone that wrote the post's that came from you: (1) He know's it all and won't listen, (2) he's all about himself and arrogant, (3) I tell him this is the co. procedure's we follow and he say's he learned different and his way's the best.. so learn my way, (4) he's really not that experienced but think's so and making minor to major mistake's, (5) this guy is not a team player and no one can work with him, and other's. If those type of report(s) came back, I'd send him down the road because this kind of guy get's folk's hurt.

About ten times I said.. if this Post is too basic for you move on. So you all continued to screw with me and lay to ruin the good intent of the post, be a spoiler and show you butt.

Do you remember what (this Post) that was about ? To Point out Actual Event's that may have caused a accident or how you avoid one. Also, Operational Pointer's (don't do this, that's the wrong way). However, you little kiddee just can't see the forest for the tree's and continue to show your butt and it's getting quite large now. I guess you think that you'll wear me down or something and that make's me smile the most. I like exposing great pretender's and little kiddee B Srrr's. 

I posted a few things that I'm sure you all knew that and that was my little jok'ee for tonight, it's quite likely that none of you kiddee's knew some of the things I listed. I listed: run a tire flat for too long and it will bust the radial siide belts and the tire may blow up in your face when airing it up. Pointed out how important it is to stay on top of your gear, don't loan it out, don't buy used stuff, inspect it closely or time check/ replacement as required. If gear is over stressed,.. get it off the truck and red tagged and gone (right then & there). The last was regarding what can happen if the power is lost to the truck if the -- Hdy., Elec., Eng. power is turned off and the boom is out and being used. The next-- that chocks may not be enough when working on steep grades and tie off to two hold points is best (if possible). The last -- know when to walk away and bring in bigger equipment, a second truck, get the Supervisor involved and keep out of trouble (no doink's today). 

However, You Guy's knew all (above) that and should have skipped it completely as I have told you to do about ten times + . The addressed member's were from the new guys to the more experienced folks but cound stand a refresher). I bet my bottom dollar that a number of the folks that read this post have learned one thing or another that will help them stay out of trouble in the future. Learned something that... may save them from a injury or a serious one. If one person was saved from a accident, then all this BS with you kidde's was worth it. 

You All Make My Day

P. S. If You Kiddee's keep helping me.. we will make 150 + Post's but your butt's may not fit on the screen : {just a little jok'ee on thee' ) 

P. S. S. Did I tell you all that I liked C. Eastwood's Gran Torino film a lot. I think that a number of you all could have gotten a role in this movie. You all seem to fit into the kiddee BS that you tried to pull here. Also, I bought a new 1970 Grand Torino, Cobra Jet, 429 4 speed, so I'm sort of plugged into the movie and Clint's style as well. 

Hey, I'm still standing right here. 

Also, to the guy that does not like my grammar, spelling or spell check, it just slow's me down, you kiddee's can figure out most of it. I love run on sentence's and type forever if it's a coupled thought and such so get use to it. I mutter the english language as I want and sort of love to bucher it as I see fit. Also, don't think to highly of yourself... I don't care what you think ! Your nothing but kiddee type's waisting their time and mine. I love to do this (gammmar & such) and my twisted style....... but you all read what I have to say... so got you kid's again and great entertainment to boot.... Yeh Baby (you kiddee's I mean) bring it On ! ! ! 

One of you Commented that I'm still here and must be worth something. I'd really like to get this Post on Line with Good Info. that applied to everyone and good (real life) examples that do or could prevent accident's... was that too much to ask ! ? ! Also, Not a one of you out there know it all and can learn or pass on valuable information to others that would make a world of difference. Everyone reads this board -- loggers, climbers, farmers, rookee's that are just coming into the business. You may forget that Safety does not apply to one profession and Pro's. only or New guys or any specific experience level. It begins at home and then to the car or truck and on to the job site, then, all day long and back home again. What you did and how you did it was in ... play from the moment you got up to the time you walked back in the door at night. 

Take Care Out There, My Heart is with You.


----------

