# Ever hit a sprinkler line with a stump grinder?



## ForTheArborist (May 25, 2010)

I was grinding away the other day on some Cypress Tree stumps with the Vermeer Hydro Power, and I caught the top of a drain pipe. 3 stumps later I caught two PVC pipes that flooded. The married couple proceeded to flip out like the Vermeer was on fire - natural disaster! 

The guy goes, "what do we do?" Right then I knew I was dealing with a TV baby, know nothing. "Shut the water off." They chewed me out, and then asked about how to fix it. They were going to call a irrigation contractor out, but I told them how simple it was. That's when they turned "the gun" onto me. They thought I had "screwed them over,' so I'd have to go to Home Depot and get the supply and repair everything. The guy's reasoning was that I should have checked with the city for the location of the pipes - all my fault. 

The guy was a "royal idiot," and she took a wrong turn into the hitch with this one. I sympathized with her, and I went ahead and repaired everything at my expense. If she wouldn't have been there, I would have muffled that guys mouth with a proverbial boot whinch I basically did from that point own. I don't take loud mouth, inconsiderate, A.H.s better than anybody. 

Most HOs just take care of their problems themselves, and brush off stuff like this. These ones had no idea how to manage their home.

Should I have charged them? Should I have it up to them to repair the pipes? What are the rules when you hit these things that nobody can have a heads up on before they even order a stump grinder in the yard?


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## gr8scott72 (May 25, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> I was grinding away the other day on some Cypress Tree stumps with the Vermeer Hydro Power, and I caught the top of a drain pipe. 3 stumps later I caught two PVC pipes that flooded. The married couple proceeded to flip out like the Vermeer was on fire - natural disaster!
> 
> The guy goes, "what do we do?" Right then I knew I was dealing with a TV baby, know nothing. "Shut the water off." They chewed me out, and then asked about how to fix it. They were going to call a irrigation contractor out, but I told them how simple it was. That's when they turned "the gun" onto me. They thought I had "screwed them over,' so I'd have to go to Home Depot and get the supply and repair everything. The guy's reasoning was that I should have checked with the city for the location of the pipes - all my fault.
> 
> ...




Get a signed contract BEFORE you start grinding with one of the disclaimers saying something about not responsible for unmarked sprinklers, septics, etc.

It sucks to break $100 worth of stuff on an $80 stump job. lol


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## Curbside (May 26, 2010)

I've hit a number of sprinkler lines but I make it clear to the home owner that we do the best to avoid them but we will not take responsibility for sprinkler lines. I make sure that we look for sprinklers on the property just like we make sure utilities will not be an issue and if they are we notify the home owner that their is possibility of sprinkler issues or if utilities are an issuer we require a utility clearance.


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## cassandrasdaddy (May 26, 2010)

*utility clearance*

i hit electric service with a digging bar and i was 30 inches from their red mark i am so glad i took pictures before digging


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## ddhlakebound (May 26, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> I don't take loud mouth, inconsiderate, A.H.s better than anybody.



Really? Well that just totally screws up the "birds of a feather" saying...



> Most HOs just take care of their problems themselves, and brush off stuff like this.



Sounds like it's pretty common to leave a broken, bashed, and battered trail of destruction behind you. 



> These ones had no idea how to manage their home.



Obviously....I mean they hired you right?



> Should I have charged them? Should I have it up to them to repair the pipes? What are the rules when you hit these things that nobody can have a heads up on before they even order a stump grinder in the yard?



Na, they should have charged you to have their irrigation system professionally repaired. Being hired by someone doesn't relieve you of responsibility because they ordered in a stumper. How friggin hard is it to see a bunch of sprinkler heads all over the lawn?


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## mikewhite85 (May 26, 2010)

I usually have the homeowner point out where any irrigation lines are before working and I test them before leaving the job to make sure everything's ok.

Sometimes, I still break them though (just ground a 3/4" line the other day) but I almost always carry sprinkler supplies with me in my truck just in case. Saves A LOT of time running out to Lowes or Home Depot when stuff like that happens (especially when you have a rented grinder and time is an issue). I just have a 5 gallon bucket with a couple small pieces of pipe, primer and glue, a head, and a couple fittings (especially couplings). Thankfully, irrigation supplies are wicked cheap. A little kit like that costs 20-30 bucks (the heads being the most expensive). 

Sorry about your bad break, FTA. I have definitely had my share as well. Hopefully, we learn from our mistakes!


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## ForTheArborist (May 26, 2010)

I got it now. Sign the contract waiving my responsibility to repair, and offer them my pipe repair service  

I hate to sound cold blooded, but if you are healthy/fit enough, you should be able to repair a little PVC. So if you can't, you should have to pay me a few hundred dollars to do it. 

Think about it. If you don't want to use your legs, pay someone for an automobile. If you don't want to communicate via mail, pay someone to use their phone system. If you don't want to fix your pipes, pay me to fix them after you let me bust them. If you have to hold on to your money, start walking, start typing, and start using your brain to figure out how to put a link in a PVC pipe. :greenchainsaw:

I can sure use the money you know. Guys that thunk these old pvC's out sure have thought about how to use money.


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## mattfr12 (May 26, 2010)

the worste thing i ever have hit in a stump was an electric line that actually was live. and growing through the center of a stump about 2 inches above the ground. it powerd outdoor lighting so it wasnt like a 220 or 440 line but still scared the poop out of me when i seen it.


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## ForTheArborist (May 26, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> the worste thing i ever have hit in a stump was an electric line that actually was live. and growing through the center of a stump about 2 inches above the ground. it powered outdoor lighting so it wasn't like a 220 or 440 line but still scared the poop out of me when i seen it.



You cut the wire, but you were not electrocuted through the grinder?


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## ddhlakebound (May 26, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> I got it now. Sign the contract waiving my responsibility to repair, and offer them my pipe repair service
> 
> I hate to sound cold blooded, but if you are healthy/fit enough, you should be able to repair a little PVC. So if you can't, you should have to pay me a few hundred dollars to do it.
> 
> ...



I bet your momma is sure proud of you. 

And I can see it now.....two years down the road... FTA's county wide conglomerate corporation: Irrigation Remediation, Fence Restoration, Roof Rehabilitation & Tree Hacking Service, where the motto is "_we'll work for you....once._"


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## pdqdl (May 26, 2010)

You screwed up. Your lack of preparation means that the bill is all yours.

1. It doesn't sound like you called to get the underground utilities marked. It's good sense, and it is the law in our neighborhood. It wouldn't have protected the irrigation pipes you hit, unless it made you begin to wonder what was really down there to cause problems.

2. You seem to lack the experience to consider the normal risk to an irrigation system. This is standard procedure for most of us; just consider the cost of repair to be an investment in future stump grindings gone right.

3. Arguing with customers or being impatient with their unwillingness to fix your mistake will cost you the customers good will. They hired you because they thought you were the expert. Stop trying to convince them otherwise.

4. If your customers were know-it-all, do-it-yourself-ers, they wouldn't have hired you to begin with. They would have gone out and rented a stump grinder themselves. Be thankful they don't know how to fix your little mistake, otherwise they probably wouldn't need you for anything else, either.

5. How did you hit an irrigation system with water pressure in it? Were you grinding while the sprinklers were on? It is pretty unusual to hit any kind of trunk line with a grinder, because they are typically buried deeper than you would grind. So how deep were you grinding?


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## Brodie (May 26, 2010)

At the end of the day YOU hit the pipe so it is YOUR responsibility to fix the problem. 

Ill give you an example if I get a guy to fix my washing machine and he pulls the pipe out of the wall because he didn't check to see that the washing machine was disconnected before moving it I expect that the any damage is fixed by him at his cost. 

We are meant to be professionals with sufficient training to do our job that is why we charge our services out at a premium plain and simple thats it. If you want to do a poor job then don't charge a premium rate because you just plain dont deserve it. 

The way I run my stump grinding service is to:
1) Ask the client of services and pipes they know of on the property. 

2) Check with Dial Before You Dig they have records of where utilities have placed their services. 

3) If there is still cause for suspicion then I require a service location and mapping service which cost around $200 pre hour (Australian Dollars) not expensive compared to replacing a utility line. 

I also have a disclaimer that if after all that we still hit something that was not found on any maps or locating services then it is at their cost. Any other damage is our responsibility. The Disclaimer also states that we will do everything we can do avoid damage. 

I also dont understand how you hit a pressurised line I mean if its irrigation then there must have been water coming from some kind of jet.


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## treesquirrel (May 26, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> I hate to sound cold blooded, but if you are healthy/fit enough, you should be able to repair a little PVC. So if you can't, you should have to pay me a few hundred dollars to do it.



Sounds like the kind of tree service that would drop a huge spar onto a driveway then inform the homeowner that they also do concrete work and hand them a quote. It just creates more cash flow.


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## 2FatGuys (May 26, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> You screwed up. Your lack of preparation means that the bill is all yours.



:agree2:

If you hadn't been performing your service, or had been better prepared for the normal risks, the line would not have been damaged by YOU. I guess, using your logic, if you were doing a removal for these people, and you dropped a limb through their roof, you would rant and rave about thier house being in the way? The house is a normal obstacle on a removal, just like power lines and sprinkler lines are on stump jobs.

If you don't understand your responsibilities as a service provider, you need to start flipping burgers or standing on a corner holding a sign.


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## tomtrees58 (May 26, 2010)

well a tooth pop of wen through the rubber and got me in the b:censored: yup ouch


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## lone wolf (May 26, 2010)

tomtrees58 said:


> well a tooth pop of wen through the rubber and got me in the b:censored: yup ouch



translation a tooth came off and hit him in the balls I think?


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## treemandan (May 26, 2010)

811, its the law for good reason. I used to make the calls but now I just get the HO to do it and ask if they know of anything else down there.


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## 2FatGuys (May 26, 2010)

treemandan said:


> 811, its the law for good reason. I used to make the calls but now I just get the HO to do it and ask if they know of anything else down there.



In NC, they will only gurentee location of public utilities. Sprinkler lines aren't included. Getting the HO involved is a GREAT thing to do!

Anyone with stumper experience should carry a ground probe on their truck and be familiar with looking for sprinkler heads and locating probable line directions / locations.


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## beastmaster (May 26, 2010)

A little detective work prior to grinding the stump will eliminate most accidents. I always check where the gas meter is, and the water main, it not hard to figure out which way the sprinklers are running most the time. Some times if not sure, carefully digging down or probing with a thin metal rod will give some info. Even being really careful I still sometimes hit a sprinkler line so we carry an assortment of pcv fittings on our truck, the time spent on repair is nothing if it gets you called back or a good referral. I think customer service is as important as doing a good job.
I have a bad temper sometimes my self, and some HO can push you to the brink, but if your in business or running someones business, you have to just choke it up some times(I kick the dog when I get home) 
Most tree people I know are experts at fence repair, minor roofing repairs, hard scape repair and of course sprinkler repair. S_ _t happens. Its all part of the job. Beast.


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## ForTheArborist (May 26, 2010)

I assume there is an 811 here too. I need to start putting them on that whole pipe finding process before bringing the grinder. That spare part bucket is a good idea. The best idea is the ground probe, so I can find these things myself at very least.

Some of you guys exagerate a lot. None of your comparisions about dropping trees on houses or pulling out washing machines have anything to do with pipes no one could have known about. I here the ding though - the ding bat brigade. :spam:

Asking me to damage the ground around pipes without damaging pipes that the HOs don't have any idea what so ever about is a little bit on the pretender side. If they gave a "piece," they would have remedied this before grinding by informing me of pipe locations like responsible HOs. Instead they only became serious about them after I found them myself. They were jerking me around about it, and that is all there is to it. 

I've got a thing about anyone in the world. I treat them like my neighbors because they are all part of the same community. Some neighbors I rub hard, but most I treat very respectfully. These people with the pipes just happened to rub me too hard, so I don't take them like adults headed in the right direction with anybody any more after that. It doesn't matter how old a person is. If they need to be tipped off that they are worthlessly disrespectful, I will deliver that hardened note. Otherwise some people just run around like they have no effect on people when they cut up on people like they do. In an area of 5 million + people, I'm sure I can stand to lose a few clients over disagreements about how a service man should be treated. He seemed to be kind of respectful towards the end of my stint at the property :greenchainsaw: I guess I know what I'm doing after all.

THE MORAL OF THE STORY:

Pipes that close to the stumps were just going to be busted no matter what. In my book I say bust those things, get the stumps out, and repair the pipes, but not for free. If they want it done for free, then I will refuse to do the work.


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## arbor pro (May 26, 2010)

I get a locate called in on the utilities but anything not locatable by the utilities is not covered for repair including irrigation lines. I've never had an issue with a homeowner understanding this and have only hit a few 'zone' sprinkler lines being 1" poly - very easy to repair. Never hit a pvc line and shouldn't - it should be at least 12" deep.

Of course, it all boils down to keeping the customer happy so, if you hit a line and failed to explain beforehand that you're not responsible for such, then you fix it to keep the HO happy and move on. Never hurts to ask the HO to pay for it and explain why but it all comes down to keeping them happy.

I don't usually think about signing a contract for a $60 stump but not a bad idea from a liability viewpoint. Always best to look for signs of irrigation before starting on a job and talking to the HO about potential damage.


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## arbor pro (May 26, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> THE MORAL OF THE STORY:
> 
> Pipes that close to the stumps were just going to be busted no matter what. In my book I say bust those things, get the stumps out, and repair the pipes, but not for free. If they want it done for free, then I will refuse to do the work.



Bingo. Just need to make sure the HO understands that stickly little point BEFORE you do the work, not AFTER.


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## gr8scott72 (May 26, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> I assume there is an 811 here too. I need to start putting them on that whole pipe finding process before bringing the grinder. That spare part bucket is a good idea. The best idea is the ground probe, so I can find these things myself at very least.
> 
> Some of you guys exagerate a lot. None of your comparisions about dropping trees on houses or pulling out washing machines have anything to do with pipes no one could have known about. I here the ding though - the ding bat brigade. :spam:
> 
> ...




Huh?


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## pdqdl (May 26, 2010)

arbor pro said:


> Bingo. Just need to make sure the HO understands that sticky little point BEFORE you do the work, not AFTER.



Yep. That about covers it.


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## teamtree (May 26, 2010)

Pretty simple fix....we hit them all the time....patch them and go....

I always ask the homeowner if there is anything to be concerned about as far as irrigation, electric, etc. If it is near the street I call in an underground locate.

But from now on, always ask the homeowner before you get started. If they tell you nothing to be worried about, have them sign a statement to that effect and they will be liable for any repairs....you are only there to grind the stump.

I have found that a few questions before you start or during the estimate can avoid many problems down the road. If they are cool about me saying...."if we hit a irrigation line....we will fix it and go on" then I don't worry too much about it.


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## teamtree (May 26, 2010)

I think you are putting too much responsibility on the homeowner.....

Even if they are clueless.....you are a contractor working on their property and you should have gone through a checklist before you start the process, which includes asking the important questions. 

I am not saying you are totally responsible but it sounds like you did not do your due diligence in this case. If you start to dig without knowing what is under the ground it is on you. Most people don't know where there irrigation lines are so you need to ask if they have an irrigation system. If yes, where is it? If they don't know and can't mark them, then you indicate the possibility of hitting them and who will be responsible for the repair.

I ask this question and explain the situation before I start then when I hit the line because they can't tell me where it is, then they can pay the landscape company to fix it or cover the cost for me to fix it.


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## lone wolf (May 26, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> I assume there is an 811 here too. I need to start putting them on that whole pipe finding process before bringing the grinder. That spare part bucket is a good idea. The best idea is the ground probe, so I can find these things myself at very least.
> 
> Some of you guys exagerate a lot. None of your comparisions about dropping trees on houses or pulling out washing machines have anything to do with pipes no one could have known about. I here the ding though - the ding bat brigade. :spam:
> 
> ...


So its the stupid homeowners fault you caused this damage huh? do you blame everything that happens on someone else if you did that to me and did not accept responsibility you better run away fast!


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## oscar4883 (May 26, 2010)

:agree2:


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## pdqdl (May 26, 2010)

I posted a couple of questions; no answer yet!

1. How did you hit an irrigation line with pressure in it.
(irrigation lines DON"T have pressure in them unless the system is turned on. Since you wouldn't be grinding while the sprinklers were running, I suspect a problem)
In other words, how do you know it was an irrigation line? I'll bet it was a service line to some other water supply on the property.

2. How deep were you digging when you hit the pipes?


Non-answers to these important questions don't inspire us to have confidence in you.


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## treeclimber101 (May 26, 2010)

Listen a irrigation pipe is a five minute repair , and these :censored:heads that are calling you a hack for breaking a line are all hypocrates anyway , everyone breaks something once in a while and :censored:em if they can't admit it , but seriously though you need to communicate with the HO better and ask questions and when it comes to irrigation systems if they don't know where the lines are how are you gonna avoid them , there is no markout for pvc


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## lone wolf (May 26, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Listen a irrigation pipe is a five minute repair , and these :censored:heads that are calling you a hack for breaking a line are all hypocrates anyway , everyone breaks something once in a while and :censored:em if they can't admit it , but seriously though you need to communicate with the HO better and ask questions and when it comes to irrigation systems if they don't know where the lines are how are you gonna avoid them , there is no markout for pvc



Its his attitude that the homeowner should know that bothers me!


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## treeclimber101 (May 26, 2010)

Seriously on a unrelated story , last winter I removed a oak tree at a business and had markouts and knew where the sprinklers were , long story short I crushed a schedule 40 drain line for a sump pump and the basement flooded a week later the owner called me , I went out there exposed the break cut it repaired it and cleaned the line with a jet pump, then charged him 800.00 for the repair he was a little taken back but guess what I'm not a mind reader if theres somethings as significant as that in the ground because of previous drainage issues than he should have known where it was and made me aware of it .....


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## lone wolf (May 26, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Seriously on a unrelated story , last winter I removed a oak tree at a business and had markouts and knew where the sprinklers were , long story short I crushed a schedule 40 drain line for a sump pump and the basement flooded a week later the owner called me , I went out there exposed the break cut it repaired it and cleaned the line with a jet pump, then charged him 800.00 for the repair he was a little taken back but guess what I'm not a mind reader if theres somethings as significant as that in the ground because of previous drainage issues than he should have known where it was and made me aware of it .....



you are Lucky he didn't get a lawyer!


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## treeclimber101 (May 26, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> Its his attitude that the homeowner should know that bothers me!



Well ya know what I know where each and every one my lines are and guess what I can take a cut shovel and find them in less then two trys so ignorance s not an excuse , every irrigation company gives a drawing for the system to reference at least something as a guide so if your gonna have a machine digging up your yard ya may wanna go dig it up..


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## treeclimber101 (May 26, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> you are Lucky he didn't get a lawyer!



He coulda that would have been interesting to me to have a judge rule on it . I think that it would have gone my way , listen to the message when you call in markouts , they will notify gas water electric and cable including municipal sewer all others are the responsibilty of the contractor prior to starting I asked are there anything in this area that I should be concerned of and his answer was I don't know but what else could be there ...


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## lone wolf (May 26, 2010)

anyone else here care to weigh in on who would be responsible?


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## randyg (May 26, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> It doesn't matter how old a person is. If they need to be tipped off that they are worthlessly disrespectful, I will deliver that hardened note. Otherwise some people just run around like they have no effect on people when they cut up on people like they do. In an area of 5 million + people, I'm sure I can stand to lose a few clients .





I heard it put like this: Leave a customer happy they hired you, and they will tell their friends. Make a customer unhappy, and they will tell EVERYBODY!

On the other hand: "Never give advise. The WISE don't need it, and the FOOLS won't heed it."

Hey, not callin names or anything, just sayin...


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## treeclimber101 (May 26, 2010)

There comes a point where your just fixing someone elses :censored:up plain and simple and why should I claim that mistake and pay a 1000 for my deductible have a loss run on my insurance I will not be taken advantage of , I meet every Owner prior to the work starts ask every question even as mondain as they seem and explain exactly what I will be doing on there property right down to when we take lunch break so If theres something missed it isn't by me ...


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## Toddppm (May 26, 2010)

The only thing that seems to have been done wrong was not to let them know of the possibility that a line could be hit. 
If I know they have a sprinkler system I write on the proposal that we're not repsonsible for damage.

I've never had a customer have a diagram of their system. I don't know if the installers don't give them one or they throw it away. Then again sprinklers aren't all that popular here either. Have repaired one that we broke when transplanting a shrub and others we knew we would run into ahead of time.


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## pdqdl (May 26, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Listen a irrigation pipe is a five minute repair ,
> 
> ... and when it comes to irrigation systems if they don't know where the lines are how are you gonna avoid them , there is no markout for pvc



No irrigation repair is done in 5 minutes. Even by the irrigation specialist parked beside the injured pipe.

Yes! There are ways of locating even a PVC pipe. Unless you specialize in irrigation, it will be cheaper to hit the line and then fix it.



Others have said that you can find a pipe with a probe, while preparing to do stump grinding. I won't say it's impossible, but it is sure unlikely to work in the root flare of an established tree. How would you tell a tree root from an irrigation pipe? Sound? Not real likely, since the roots will all interfere with hitting the pipe to begin with.


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## mattfr12 (May 26, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> You cut the wire, but you were not electrocuted through the grinder?



ya i cut the wire it sparked and everything but it was a regular 110 line it would be like cutting and exstension cord so the electricity dispersed through the machine was probably not enough for me to feel it and if you did it would be like sticking your finger in a light socket just hurt like hell. a larger voltage line could be fatal.


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## treeclimber101 (May 26, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> No irrigation repair is done in 5 minutes. Even by the irrigation specialist parked beside the injured pipe.
> 
> Yes! There are ways of locating even a PVC pipe. Unless you specialize in irrigation, it will be cheaper to hit the line and then fix it.
> 
> ...



Well that just a little literal , but I installed and have repaired irrigation systems they a joke , even a valve is a half hr. job really you can probe all day long and punch holes in the pipes looking for them ....


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## treeclimber101 (May 26, 2010)

Heres one I know a man who doing a job at an old farm house close to my shop , he pulled into the side yard and set up his truck , he took the boom out of the cradle rotated to the left and the truck flipped over, I 've seen the pics , come to find out that someone covered an old well with a thin layer of concrete and topsoiled over it , the outrigger went through the concrete and fell in, but heres the thing the truck was paid for and he only had collision , the homeowners wouldn't pay for it because it was a business vehicle the guys own business insurance would only give him 2,000 towards replacement of the truck, so long story short he was screwed , and the kicker is the HO at the house when he saw what had happened said he knew it was there but never thought the truck would break through it .....He had the nerve to sue the guy for the damage to his yard and also wanted the hole filled , I mean come the hell really..


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## pdqdl (May 26, 2010)

Boom trucks are notorious for flipping when the soft ground drops an outrigger. 

If he was in the business, he knew the risk.


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## treeclimber101 (May 26, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Boom trucks are notorious for flipping when the soft ground drops an outrigger.
> 
> If he was in the business, he knew the risk.



Oh so hidden well holes are a normal thing , really you sound like a insurance adjuster and frankly thats the stupidest thing that could be said , plain and simple if that happened to me I would sue the homeowner , and guess what I could not care less about it , I would never do work in his yard again because he's an idiot and I'll pass on the referral too cause birds of a feather flock together..


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## pdqdl (May 26, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Oh so hidden well holes are a normal thing , really you sound like a insurance adjuster and frankly thats the stupidest thing that could be said , plain and simple if that happened to me I would sue the homeowner , and guess what I could not care less about it , I would never do work in his yard again because he's an idiot and I'll pass on the referral too cause birds of a feather flock together..



I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, so lighten up. If you want to start a pissing match, I think I will be happy to accommodate you. If you mean to say that insurance adjusters are intelligent people, and that I sound like one...Gee! Thanks. 

Stupid is, as stupid does.



Aerial devices flip for two main reasons: overload (operator error) and unstable ground. That's it! Any real crane operator knows all about trying to eliminate risk by stabilizing the outriggers with extra padding.

Sometime bad things happen. Good luck finding a lawyer willing to prove that a homeowner should know more about the safety risks to a boom truck than the operator.


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## treeclimber101 (May 26, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, so lighten up. If you want to start a pissing match, I think I will be happy to accommodate you. If you mean to say that insurance adjusters are intelligent people, and that I sound like one...Gee! Thanks.
> 
> Stupid is, as stupid does.
> 
> ...


I highly doubt that a real crane operator or any other operator pulls into a property expecting to fall into a void , and you wanna have a pissing match about cranes that fine too, cranes bucket highreaches work on unstable ground more often than not , the trick is proper cribbing and site understanding a 4ft. wide hole that is hidden by some kinda wyley coyote boobey trap is not something that any operators plan on , and there are plenty of lawyers that would see that the well was halfassed dealt with , so frankly you are slightly slow on the uptake...Frankly I probably have forgotten more situations than you where cranes and our man lifts have been set up in areas less than ideal ..


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## BC WetCoast (May 27, 2010)

When it comes to hitting irrigation lines, I seem to be attracted to them. I've hit them a fertilizer injector, ground them with a stumper, hit them with a pick while hand digging out a stump and put a shovel through it while digging out a shrub.

I've never had an HO give me a diagram of their system, although some have shown me generally where they think they are located. We also do condo complexes and commercial properties, so there is no one who knows where the system is located. Also you have to accept the fact that sometimes the irrigation system was install by previous homeowners and the new owners have no clue where the lines run. (Do you know where the electrical or plumbing lines are in your wall?).

Our policy is: if we break it we fix it. Although there have been situations where the HO has voluntarily accepted responsibility because they didn't previously inform us. 

I have seen a situation where an irrigation line was pressurized but the system wasn't on. It was in a condo complex and the main trunk lines appeared to be pressurized permanently, but there were electric operated valves that shut the distribution lines when the sprinklers weren't operating. This was the one we got with a shovel digging up a shrub. It was down about 8". 

For you irrigation pipe repair pros, what is the best way to repair a line when it isn't really feasible to dig back (due to roots, walls, rocks etc) along the line so you can bend it to get the coupling to install. When I worked for a muni waterworks, we had a bolt on coupling to repair water main breaks, but have never seen anything like this for PVC.


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## Treetom (May 27, 2010)

I carry extra hose, clamps and couplers just in case, for hitting the irrigation lines. Sometimes you just can't avoid it and do an adequate stump grind. Also have hit gas lines, wheel hubs from old cars, glavanized pipe, electrical lines (no live ones, yet), a lot of concrete. Just part of the job.


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## lone wolf (May 27, 2010)

"I highly doubt that a real crane operator or any other operator pulls into a property expecting to fall into a void" 

I sure do expect it and I would be foolish not to expect a septic to be in a yard! OK maybe I would not expect one to be under someones driveway.


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## treemandan (May 27, 2010)

2FatGuys said:


> In NC, they will only gurentee location of public utilities. Sprinkler lines aren't included. Getting the HO involved is a GREAT thing to do!
> 
> Anyone with stumper experience should carry a ground probe on their truck and be familiar with looking for sprinkler heads and locating probable line directions / locations.



He is lucky that's all he found was a sprinkler. Between the 811 call and what the client tells me I feel OK about going subteranean. This is the first thing that comes up when stumping.

But FTA has a point, if those people started in on me I would have been more pissed too. A sprinkler? That's nothing! You should see what I am really capable of destroying.


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## beastmaster (May 27, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Sometime bad things happen. Good luck finding a lawyer willing to prove that a homeowner should know more about the safety risks to a boom truck than the operator.



There's such a thing as gross negligence. Having a lightly covered hole in your yard camouflaged with a thin layer of soil could possibly fall under that . 
I am pro, "except responability", but I still use to have on my work orders/bid sheets in small print,under stump grinding; Not responsible for underground utilitys, I haven't been informed about in advance. 
I never had to invoke that clause, and wouldn't unless it was a case of gross negligence.


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## ForTheArborist (May 27, 2010)

PDQL, maybe it was a different line. There were three of them on top of each other, 3/4" pvc, I busted two, and at least one was running. 



lone wolf said:


> So its the stupid homeowners fault you caused this damage huh? do you blame everything that happens on someone else if you did that to me and did not accept responsibility you better run away fast!



I know you're kidding us. I'm know you would regret "stepping" on something more live than you can handle, brainiac.

___

I would sue the guy for having an unsafe structure under the lane where boom trucks can fall in. It's weird, but in this state people can sue you for being injured on your property. I suppose this all goes the direction of "if you operate, manage, own it, you better make it safe." Somebody sued McDonalds for damages by their coffee. Slips and falls on the property because of unsafe structures are in too. Now the guy has a empty spot below the lane of all places, and he says he knew about it - NOT going to hold up in his favor in court except in some countries.



___
They pipes aren't that big of a deal. I just need to get 'em to sign the dotted line before I start stumping. I hate giving people an unfair advantage over me even if it's just heckling rights. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Double_Diamond (May 27, 2010)

To answer WetCoast’s question regarding PVC repair when you are not able to expose a sufficient amount of pipe to bend it into a standard coupling you can use a “PVC Expansion Repair Coupling”. Just Google it and you can see what it looks like. Hands down it is cheapest and easiest way to repair a PVC line with a hole. You will never have to uncover a bunch of pipe again. 

While I am not an arborist I am a civil engineer and deal with contractors and underground utilities all the time. It should be everyone’s standard practice to call the local utility locator service (a free service in the US) prior to any type of excavation. While this doesn’t help with private utilities it will delineate any public utilities and absolve you of any responsibility if a public utility is damaged that was not marked. Just as an example, we had a contractor hit a marked 2” gas main. By the time it was repaired he was on the hook for $20,000 for lost gas and repair costs for the gas company. You never know when there may be a pubic utility easement running across someone’s yard or when previous construction activates have removed a significant amount of soil so instead of a gas or electric line being 42” deep it is 6” deep. We have seen that on a few occasions too.


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## millbilly (May 27, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I posted a couple of questions; no answer yet!
> 
> 1. How did you hit an irrigation line with pressure in it.
> (irrigation lines DON"T have pressure in them unless the system is turned on. Since you wouldn't be grinding while the sprinklers were running, I suspect a problem)
> ...




irrigation mains have pressure. The lateral runs dont have pressure


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## DavidBrown1212 (May 27, 2010)

I broke a irrigation line the other day when I dropped a large spare on the yard. The guy wanted "rock bottom economy" removal, and I told him that there would be collateral damage to nearby trees, turf, ect. I swallowed the repair with a smile on my face, because the HO went through a similar reaction, and ended up landing a mulch job out it. Anything you hit while digging or grinding is always your fault, your cost.


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## lone wolf (May 27, 2010)

:agree2:


DavidBrown1212 said:


> I broke a irrigation line the other day when I dropped a large spare on the yard. The guy wanted "rock bottom economy" removal, and I told him that there would be collateral damage to nearby trees, turf, ect. I swallowed the repair with a smile on my face, because the HO went through a similar reaction, and ended up landing a mulch job out it. Anything you hit while digging or grinding is always your fault, your cost.


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## pdqdl (May 28, 2010)

millbilly said:


> irrigation mains have pressure. The lateral runs dont have pressure



Do you do irrigation as a professional service? I do.

Lawn sprinkler systems in the US must have a backflow preventer and a master valve. Nothing beyond that point is "live" unless the system is turned on. I suppose it would be possible to get some jackleg installation that did it wrong, too.

Unless there is a separate and unusual installation, water to operate the system is drawn from somewhere close to the meter for the best pressure performance, but generally inside the structure on the property. Any "live" water lines should be buried lower than a stump grinder would hit under normal grinding conditions. 

Hence, my comments.


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## Arbordocs (Mar 2, 2016)

A question I had brought me to this discussion. Unfortunately, what helpful advise I gained from your postings was, Don't ask a question or you will be made to feel stupid and inept. In an industry where many of us operate in states where no education is required, we can all benefit from sharing accurate information with each other. Some day you may benefit from someone else's charitable advise. My question had to do with this same issue. In a litigation happy world, it is my desire to post disclaimers and helpful advise on the back of my estimates. Does anyone have a disclaimer they use for stump grinding, root barriers, etc. in regards to digging. Yes, I ask my clients to contact 811 before digging. Thank you good kind sirs for the valiant knights you are.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Mar 2, 2016)

treeclimber101 said:


> Oh so hidden well holes are a normal thing , really you sound like a insurance adjuster and frankly thats the stupidest thing that could be said , plain and simple if that happened to me I would sue the homeowner , and guess what I could not care less about it , I would never do work in his yard again because he's an idiot and I'll pass on the referral too cause birds of a feather flock together..



Yes, hidden well holes are a normal thing.


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## Pelorus (Mar 2, 2016)

Arbordocs - hail fellow well met. 
I hope you can accept charitable advice, therefore I'd like to advise you to post advice on your helpful disclaimers and estimates. (One grammar oops I could accept; two birds with the same feather were one too many. )


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 2, 2016)

Arbordocs said:


> A question I had brought me to this discussion. Unfortunately, what helpful advise I gained from your postings was, Don't ask a question or you will be made to feel stupid and inept. In an industry where many of us operate in states where no education is required, we can all benefit from sharing accurate information with each other. Some day you may benefit from someone else's charitable advise. My question had to do with this same issue. In a litigation happy world, it is my desire to post disclaimers and helpful advise on the back of my estimates. Does anyone have a disclaimer they use for stump grinding, root barriers, etc. in regards to digging. Yes, I ask my clients to contact 811 before digging. Thank you good kind sirs for the valiant knights you are.



Ha, blast from the past,, good ole FTA,,,good time's,,,lol
Anyway, put on your 'man suit' and quit crying,,
Jeff


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## pdqdl (Mar 2, 2016)

Arbordocs said:


> A question I had brought me to this discussion. Unfortunately, what helpful advise I gained from your postings was, Don't ask a question or you will be made to feel stupid and inept. In an industry where many of us operate in states where no education is required, we can all benefit from sharing accurate information with each other. Some day you may benefit from someone else's charitable advise. My question had to do with this same issue. In a litigation happy world, it is my desire to post disclaimers and helpful advise on the back of my estimates. Does anyone have a disclaimer they use for stump grinding, root barriers, etc. in regards to digging. Yes, I ask my clients to contact 811 before digging. Thank you good kind sirs for the valiant knights you are.



This thread is somewhat old, and there used to be quite a bit of anti-social commentary that did not encourage participation. That being said, more recently, the moderation of the website has been discouraging that nonsense, and I think the welcome mat is a bit easier to find these days.

No, I have no disclaimers on my bid sheets. I believe that a disclaimer does nothing more than make the customer think you are unwilling or unable to protect them from the risks inherent with the job they hired you to do. I suppose someday I might get sued, but I rather expect that the disclaimer won't do a damn thing about getting a favorable outcome. 

That is why I pay for insurance.


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## bikemike (Mar 3, 2016)

I sure is a cool site to se clean water coming out the ground running the rg45 rayco I had hit a irrigation water main. They aren't marked like gas water electric utilities. It was cool the Crew and I had a good laugh about it


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## tidy (Mar 19, 2016)

pdqdl said:


> No, I have no disclaimers on my bid sheets. I believe that a disclaimer does nothing more than make the customer think you are unwilling or unable to protect them from the risks inherent with the job they hired you to do. I suppose someday I might get sued, but I rather expect that the disclaimer won't do a damn thing about getting a favorable outcome.
> That is why I pay for insurance.



I use disclaimers for underground services (all care taken-no liability accepted) because I like to protect my interests and I'm not equipped with ground penetrating radar etc. I can see your point about it not being a good look but most reasonable folk understand that operating the equipment near services puts the services at risk.


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## crotchclimber (Mar 19, 2016)

Our proposals have a disclaimer about unmarked underground utilities and irrigation lines. It's common to hit sprinkler lines when stump grinding. Fortunately they are almost always 1" poly here and we have barbs and some tubing to repair it. But most customers don't care (no longer use system) or say they will have their landscaper fix it.


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## no tree to big (Apr 2, 2016)

"We are not responsible for marked or unmarked private utilities, sprinkler systems, septic fields, or putting back fence." 

Now we don't go grinding all crazy but if there is a marked sprinkler or dog fence right by the stump and they still want the stump out and I hit it then it's there problem. Just as I don't just go driving across septic fields. if they want to wait 10 years to to cut down a dead tree I'm either plywooding in or flopping the tree take it or leave it. 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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