# Importance of clean notch



## hosocat (Jan 10, 2020)

I'm definitely not an experienced tree feller. I've only cut down 25 or 30 trees, and most of them have been less than 12 inches in crowded conditions, so i end up having my trees fall part down, and then have to drag them down the rest of the way. So i dont see a lot of dramatic, clean falls to determine how well i cut. But everything I read or watch emphasizes the importance of a clean notch and precise back cut. Some cutters seem to obsess about it, and spend an extreme amount of time getting their notch perfect. But in olden times people used axes. It wasn't possible to get a clean, smooth notch or be super accurate in placing their back cut.. But they seem to have been able to successfully fell trees. Just curious. How vital is it to have a perfect notch and backcut?


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## Jhenderson (Jan 10, 2020)

Depends on how accurate you plan on being and whether or not you can afford to crack the butt with a poorly executed technique.


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## Rob Stafari (Jan 11, 2020)

Dig up some pictures of those old timers with their axes. You'd be surprised how 'clean' their notches are. Clean doesn't mean the faces of the cuts, means having a clean and open apex so the hinge can do its job.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 12, 2020)

face cuts means everything. direction of fall, speed of fall, what the stem does as it leaves the stump

a good face cut can reduce the risk of a barber chair.

the old timers knew all of this, and you can arguably be more precise with an axe then you can with a power saw, just a lot more work and skill involved.

as far as the back cut goes, accuracy isn't nearly as important as many claim it to be, ideally you want to be level or just a touch higher then the face cut, but a little low won't hurt, and a little high isn't the end of the world, it makes for an ugly butt log, and an uglier stump. That said, there are drawbacks to high and low back cuts, to low can make it barber chair easier. as well as more work to wedge it over, too high and you miss the face entirely, or over cut into your slope wood (for a standard "frowny" face cut). The benefit of an intentionally low back cut, is if your using equipment to push it over, it helps prevent shoving the butt off the stump, though if your careful and leave enough hold wood, this shouldn't be an issue. 

the lesson if you've made it this far...

For most trees and most timber, a clean, well aimed face cut, where in the cuts from the aiming cut and slope cut match with out over or under lapping, as well as cleaning out all of the loose bits of wood, will make timber fall to the desired direction, much much more likely, (there are still other factors, such as natural lean, wind, limb weight etc) also when in doubt, make the face steep and deep... worry about breakage and fiber pull later

Biggest consideration for the back cut, is to get it close to level with the aiming cut, and leave hinge wood, 90% of the time keep the hold wood parallel with the aiming cut of the face, more wood on one side will pull the tree towards the fat side of the hold wood, more then you think, but not something to ever rely on


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## Woody912 (Feb 11, 2020)

hosocat said:


> I'm definitely not an experienced tree feller. I've only cut down 25 or 30 trees, and most of them have been less than 12 inches in crowded conditions, so i end up having my trees fall part down, and then have to drag them down the rest of the way. So i dont see a lot of dramatic, clean falls to determine how well i cut. But everything I read or watch emphasizes the importance of a clean notch and precise back cut. Some cutters seem to obsess about it, and spend an extreme amount of time getting their notch perfect. But in olden times people used axes. It wasn't possible to get a clean, smooth notch or be super accurate in placing their back cut.. But they seem to have been able to successfully fell trees. Just curious. How vital is it to have a perfect notch and backcut?[/QUOT
> 
> sounds to me like your slice of pie is too small, closing up before you get hear horizontal. Be a hog and cut ya about 3 slices on that face cut!


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## Mad Professor (Feb 11, 2020)

OP Ever dropped a tree with an axe?

Lots of time to make the face cut perfect. 

And if you've never used an axe much, well don't hurt yourself..........


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## TheDarkLordChinChin (Feb 23, 2020)

If your notch isnt cleaned out properly it can make the tree roll as its falling. Which can be used to your advantage when intended. But when its not intended it can be a serious hazard.


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## woodfarmer (Feb 23, 2020)

Speaking of notches, just couldn't get it just the way i wanted it. Then of course the tree had to get hung up.


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## Brushwacker (Feb 23, 2020)

Back cutting lower then the notch is a no-no in my book. Easily pinches the bar and its stuck until the pressure is relieved. If the tree falls with your saw pinched you might need a new chainsaw if the but of the tree falls on it. Been there, done that. I think most chainsaw owners manuals tell you the same.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 23, 2020)

Brushwacker said:


> Back cutting lower then the notch is a no-no in my book. Easily pinches the bar and its stuck until the pressure is relieved. If the tree falls with your saw pinched you might need a new chainsaw if the but of the tree falls on it. Been there, done that. I think most chainsaw owners manuals tell you the same.


well, I do it all the time so?

if the tree sits back whether your cut is low or high, it means you need to put a wedge in there to keep the cut open. 

also the saw manual tells you to do all sorts of silly stuff, because its the "safest" thing to do, such as putting your foot through the handle when starting, and always wearing eye, ear, face, head, leg, hand neck protection, two condoms and mother on speed dial. 

but its not always the right thing to do though is it


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## KiwiBro (Feb 23, 2020)

Sometimes, by the time I've finally got my face apex perfect, it's a miracle the face hasn't close on me.


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## catbuster (Feb 23, 2020)

Humboldt face: Low back cut is just fine. Not always ideal, but it’s probably safe. Good chance that face closes and pushes the tree away from the stump and the sawyer. 

Farmer face: Hell no. Just a better way for the tree to come back at you as the hinge breaks. 

To answer the OP: It’s easy to clean out your face. Just do it. Leaving some stuff or taking some off a corner can be used to make the tree do some stuff as the hinge breaks or immediately before it breaks, but unless you really understand what it does, just put the face in the direction the tree needs to go. That’s not to say they need to match perfectly, but it needs to be clean where they meet. Afterwards put the back cut a smidge higher than the gunning cut of the face, regardless of type, and wedge it over if it’s not naturally going where you want it. If you can’t wedge it or it has a hard lean against where you want it, walk away and hire someone who can do it.


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## Brushwacker (Feb 24, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> well, I do it all the time so?
> 
> if the tree sits back whether your cut is low or high, it means you need to put a wedge in there to keep the cut open.
> 
> ...


My perception is you cut mostly smaller trees compared to here. If a 25 inch oak pinches your bar, it can get extremely difficult to drive a wedge in safely or you might not have a chance to if the tree snaps off and falls, which in that case often goes in an unexpected direction and could end up on the feller or and saw.
A low back cut will pinch the blade when the tree falls the intended direction, that is the reasoning to keep the back cut above the notch.
I know this from experiance, not just the books.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 24, 2020)

Really good stuff, I'm learning a bunch


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## anlrolfe (Feb 24, 2020)

Mad Professor said:


> OP Ever dropped a tree with an axe?
> 
> Lots of time to make the face cut perfect.
> 
> And if you've never used an axe much, well don't hurt yourself..........



Takes a special wedge for those axe cuts...


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## Haironyourchest (Feb 24, 2020)

catbuster said:


> Humboldt face: Low back cut is just fine. Not always ideal, but it’s probably safe. Good chance that face closes and pushes the tree away from the stump and the sawyer.
> 
> Farmer face: Hell no. Just a better way for the tree to come back at you as the hinge breaks.
> 
> To answer the OP: It’s easy to clean out your face. Just do it. Leaving some stuff or taking some off a corner can be used to make the tree do some stuff as the hinge breaks or immediately before it breaks, but *unless you really understand what it does, just put the face in the direction the tree needs to go*. That’s not to say they need to match perfectly, but it needs to be clean where they meet. Afterwards put the back cut a smidge higher than the gunning cut of the face, regardless of type, and wedge it over if it’s not naturally going where you want it. If you can’t wedge it or it has a hard lean against where you want it, walk away and hire someone who can do it.



Concur with the above. I don't really get the whole "fatter-hinge-wood-on-one-side-steering-thing".

If you have the space to put your face cut where you want it, what is the benefit of attempting to steer with the back cut? The only times I have ever felt the need to use this method is if I regretted the placement of the face, but didn't feel comfortable cutting it deeper.

To my mind, it's a potentially dangerous thing to rely on, since it detracts from achieving a perfect thickness of hinge. The hinge should be just thick enough until the tree starts to move, or can be moved with wedge, lever bar or pull line. No point in going thinner. Dunno, maybe I just don't have the knack for it.


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## rwoods (Feb 24, 2020)

Brushwacker said:


> My perception is you cut mostly smaller trees compared to here. If a 25 inch oak pinches your bar, it can get extremely difficult to drive a wedge in safely or you might not have a chance to if the tree snaps off and falls, which in that case often goes in an unexpected direction and could end up on the feller or and saw.
> A low back cut will pinch the blade when the tree falls the intended direction, that is the reasoning to keep the back cut above the notch.
> I know this from experiance, not just the books.



Northman can speak for himself but I believe most of what he cuts would make our 25" oaks look puny. Ron


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## 2dogs (Feb 24, 2020)

I would hate to think that people come here for advice, with good intentions, and believe everything they read here. So without explanation:

Yes a hinge can and should be cut thicker on one side than the other at times.
Yes your face cuts should always match. Don't let bad habits become the norm. 
Yes the backcut can be put in lower than the gunning cut, especially when a big yellow wedge is helping out.
Yes the hinge wood at times should be cut narrow rather than driving a wedge to prevent fiber pull.
Yes there are times when a conventional face is better than a Humboldt and vice versa.
Yes there are times when the backcut is done before the face.
Yes there are times when wedging a tree can be very dangerous.
Yes there are times when domino falling is the safest procedure.
Yes there are times when two condoms are warranted.
If you don't know what you are talking about keep quiet.


Know your local conditions, ie do the winds blow at a certain time every day? Remember it is the winds that affect the tree that are important and not the winds at ground level. Always take time to inspect the tree trunk and the ground for fruiting bodies. Is the bark coming off? Widow makers? Escape routes. Species. Sound the tree with an axe if suspicious but hit once and immediately look up. Carry an ifak and a whistle. Tree form. Watch out for snags and fire weakened trees, they soundlessly kill.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 24, 2020)

Brushwacker said:


> My perception is you cut mostly smaller trees compared to here. If a 25 inch oak pinches your bar, it can get extremely difficult to drive a wedge in safely or you might not have a chance to if the tree snaps off and falls, which in that case often goes in an unexpected direction and could end up on the feller or and saw.
> A low back cut will pinch the blade when the tree falls the intended direction, that is the reasoning to keep the back cut above the notch.
> I know this from experiance, not just the books.



Ha Ha Ha... I got plenty more where this came from


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## Brushwacker (Feb 24, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> Ha Ha Ha... I got plenty more where this came from



I am not trying to belittle you or exalt my self. Just sharing a fact that could save someone some hardship down the road.
If it matters to anybody they can experiment with a small light, straight tree. Notch it, then back cut it until under the notch, leave enough fiber it doesn't break off to easy for the experiment, with the bar at the bottom of the back cut push the tree in the falling direction where it leans but doesn't break off and the bar will most often be pinched. If your back cut is even or above the notch and the tree falls toward the notch, normally it is unlikely it could pinch. Try it both ways if inclined.


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## motorhead99999 (Feb 24, 2020)

I had a girlfriend once that didn’t know the importance or a clean notch. So I made her listen to this. 
She’s not my girlfriend anymore. A clean notch is everything


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## rwoods (Feb 24, 2020)

A back cut that extends under the “notch”* is quite different than a proper depth back cut that is lower than the “notch”; false hinge on the first.

Ron

*in others’ words, face cut or gunning cut.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 24, 2020)

Brushwacker said:


> I am not trying to belittle you or exalt my self. Just sharing a fact that could save someone some hardship down the road.
> If it matters to anybody they can experiment with a small light, straight tree. Notch it, then back cut it until under the notch, leave enough fiber it doesn't break off to easy for the experiment, with the bar at the bottom of the back cut push the tree in the falling direction where it leans but doesn't break off and the bar will most often be pinched. If your back cut is even or above the notch and the tree falls toward the notch, normally it is unlikely it could pinch. Try it both ways if inclined.


;;
So what your saying is to take a straight no lean tree, face cut it, then back cut past the hold wood until you are under the face wood?

Or in other words over cutting the back cut

Then ya, if all that happens is getting your bar pinched, you should consider your self lucky and spend a small fortune on lottery tickets

try that **** around any real cutters and if they don't laugh you out of the woods, well... lets just say I have no intention of hiring the likes of you.

And I repeat, since small words seem to go over your head, if your worried about your bar getting pinched, put a wedge in, they are cheap, and most hardware stores sell them right next to the things that resemble chain saws, usually with the saw tools etc 

Now, I understand that you are using a standard/saginaw/farmer face, in this case then yes a low back cut, could in fact break out and pinch the bar as the tree is going over, however, its momentary and rare, if this happens, by all means abandon the saw and vacate the premises... in a hurry...

I would also like to point out, that having the backcut elevated on a standard face is to prevent back slip of the stem as it falls, cutting low, encourages back slip, which at times is necessary (and dangerous as frig and should be avoided) There is a very good reason why we do not generally use the standard face out here in the PNW, and that is largely they we have exceptionally tall timber, and generally no where to run, having a tree back slip would be a terrible way to end your career, the Humboldt face prevents this, as well as mitigating most if not all ill effects of a low back cut. Not to mention the mills deduct for face cuts on saw logs, but they deduct for everything... and then some.


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## TheDarkLordChinChin (Feb 25, 2020)

motorhead99999 said:


> I had a girlfriend once that didn’t know the importance or a clean notch. So I made her listen to this.
> She’s not my girlfriend anymore. A clean notch is everything




Oh God please no.


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## Brushwacker (Feb 26, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> ;;
> So what your saying is to take a straight no lean tree, face cut it, then back cut past the hold wood until you are under the face wood?
> 
> Or in other words over cutting the back cut
> ...



I find your mumbo jumbo confusing opposition to what I much am certain is simple good advice for inexperienced chainsaw users.



Brushwacker said:


> Back cutting lower then the notch is a no-no in my book. Easily pinches the bar and its stuck until the pressure is relieved. If the tree falls with your saw pinched you might need a new chainsaw if the but of the tree falls on it. Been there, done that. I think most chainsaw owners manuals tell you the same.


 Not trying to tell him how the experienced big boys cut their big timber for logs. Woodcutters like myself cut trees all different sizes,saplings to + 40 inch trunks for different reasons under various conditions. Trying to be safe I aim to keep a priority. Falling trees on slopes often in excess of 50 degrees, often slick from ice, mud or snow i don't like to carry a lot on my side. A couple 6 inch wedges that I usually pound with a piece of wood to get a wedge in when I need it. When I need the axe and bigger wedges they come out of the truck and follow me around for when they are needed. When i am cutting in front of ditch cleaners I would be holding their equipment up if I took to much time wedging and making loggers cuts on all the trees.
As much as I try to stay a bit high from the bottom of the notch, I miss the mark once in a while and the saw gets pinched now and then. Usually I can get it out one way or another , no harm. The worse occasion I was on the slope of an snowy ditch bank about 60 degrees and my low hour 066 mag got pinched as the tree started to fall. I let go to keep from sliding into the ditch and as I was crawling up and out of the ditch the butt of the tree slipped off the stump and slid down the bank with the saw underneath it and crushed it between the butt of the tree and the thick ice on the bottom of the ditch.


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## Rob Stafari (Feb 27, 2020)

Now I am confused. It really doesn't take any more time to make proper cuts and throw a wedge or two in. Certainly far less than it does to fight with a pinched saw or recover a smashed saw from the bottom of a ditch. Slow, steady, and methodical wins the race every time. You might not come in first, but making it to the end is winning in my book...


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## Brushwacker (Feb 27, 2020)

Rob Stafari said:


> Now I am confused. It really doesn't take any more time to make proper cuts and throw a wedge or two in. Certainly far less than it does to fight with a pinched saw or recover a smashed saw from the bottom of a ditch. Slow, steady, and methodical wins the race every time. You might not come in first, but making it to the end is winning in my book...


 I agree.
I don't know if anyone gets it, but what I have been referring to is to you can learn from my mistakes, not go out there and do them.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 27, 2020)

Brushwacker said:


> I find your mumbo jumbo confusing opposition to what I much am certain is simple good advice for inexperienced chainsaw users.
> 
> Not trying to tell him how the experienced big boys cut their big timber for logs. Woodcutters like myself cut trees all different sizes,saplings to + 40 inch trunks for different reasons under various conditions. Trying to be safe I aim to keep a priority. Falling trees on slopes often in excess of 50 degrees, often slick from ice, mud or snow i don't like to carry a lot on my side. A couple 6 inch wedges that I usually pound with a piece of wood to get a wedge in when I need it. When I need the axe and bigger wedges they come out of the truck and follow me around for when they are needed. When i am cutting in front of ditch cleaners I would be holding their equipment up if I took to much time wedging and making loggers cuts on all the trees.
> As much as I try to stay a bit high from the bottom of the notch, I miss the mark once in a while and the saw gets pinched now and then. Usually I can get it out one way or another , no harm. The worse occasion I was on the slope of an snowy ditch bank about 60 degrees and my low hour 066 mag got pinched as the tree started to fall. I let go to keep from sliding into the ditch and as I was crawling up and out of the ditch the butt of the tree slipped off the stump and slid down the bank with the saw underneath it and crushed it between the butt of the tree and the thick ice on the bottom of the ditch.



the ditch diggers can wait, they are in their climate controlled bubble, getting paid hourly. If they wanna ***** cut slower, they get louder, walk off, **** em, your safety is by far a bigger concern then their whiny zit covered asses.


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## RandyMac (Feb 28, 2020)

over cutting is an unredeemable sin.


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## TheDarkLordChinChin (Feb 28, 2020)

Not cutting a notch and ending up with a tree sitting on your bar is a cardinal sin.


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## young bucker (Oct 20, 2020)

Depends on the tree species as well..let’s say Douglas fir I’ll usually 4-5” opening on a 24” tree..and let say a twisted gross maple I’d get a birds mouth in and have a massive opening..the cleaner the better.


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## Maintenance supervisor (Oct 20, 2020)

I usually just clean my notch with my ax , I'm forever getting dutchmen so I chop them out clean it up with the saw and I never cut with out an ax.
I find on small trees (not intended for lumber) the notches have to be more precise because they aren't helped by all the ton'age of a big tree. I think the big ones really are exciting to drop but the USDA changed some of their new cutter recommendations based on the number of people killed by 8" dbh trees.
I cut only problem trees with multiple targets(historic land marks)or severe damage (hurricanes, fire,lightning) as part of my job, every tree is different and a learning experience a good mitigation plan and escape plan is part of every tree for me . How I drop trees is different from my friend who cut commercial production, other trees were his only concern and I don't like to cut trees at knee level or lower . 
Anyway I'm not in a hurry to get killed or destroy a building so take your time is my best advice and watch people who get the drop right and the tree falls where they say it will , dont bother listening to "know it alls "or YouTube" chainsaw preachers", every tree is different and sometimes you won't know one's hollow till your saws buried in it. Let the Cavalier do what they like and you do the safe thing.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 20, 2020)

Maintenance supervisor said:


> I usually just clean my notch with my ax , I'm forever getting dutchmen so I chop them out clean it up with the saw and I never cut with out an ax.
> I find on small trees (not intended for lumber) the notches have to be more precise because they aren't helped by all the ton'age of a big tree. I think the big ones really are exciting to drop but the USDA changed some of their new cutter recommendations based on the number of people killed by 8" dbh trees.
> I cut only problem trees with multiple targets(historic land marks)or severe damage (hurricanes, fire,lightning) as part of my job, every tree is different and a learning experience a good mitigation plan and escape plan is part of every tree for me . How I drop trees is different from my friend who cut commercial production, other trees were his only concern and I don't like to cut trees at knee level or lower .
> Anyway I'm not in a hurry to get killed or destroy a building so take your time is my best advice and watch people who get the drop right and the tree falls where they say it will , dont bother listening to "know it alls "or YouTube" chainsaw preachers", every tree is different and sometimes you won't know one's hollow till your saws buried in it. Let the Cavalier do what they like and you do the safe thing.


As a minor Youtube chainsaw knowitallpreacher, Couldn't agree more. 

Worked around a lot of self described "experts" and nearly all of em had me concerned enough to stay out of range.


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## Trdoldtreecutter (Oct 20, 2020)

In my experience, its much easier to clean an undercut where the angled cut is made below the level cut. I will often times come slightly short of matching so as to avoid sawing past where I wanted to on the aiming cut. I will sometimes make my first cut angled down if I need a wide face when I don’t want the face to close before It hits the ground. An example of this is is tall trunks left after topping or very dead trees. There are a few tricks I use on hardwoods to avoid barber chair which can be very important on steep ground or while topping but a wide face isn’t one of them although a clean undercut is helpful. There are times when a non clean undercut may be made on purpose to capture lean to avoid heavy wedging or a kicker placed inside one corner to help swing or make a quick adjustment while a large tree is falling. These cases would be best left where there is room to practice. I’m very mindful of a back cut above the undercut if I’m topping a tree that is going to rub hard through other trees. This gives it something to catch on after the hinge wood has broke. There can also be a time to be under the undercut with the back cut as the wood will pull harder on that side in some cases. To me , one of the most important things is to stay around 1/3 diameter with the undercut if lean is not easily determined or a concern. I worked with (bucked for) a couple different guys that started falling with the misery whip. They said they would saw the aiming cut and chop the top part out. It was more interesting to learn the tricks they used when bucking on steep ground although they had a lot of falling tricks as well.


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## slowp (Oct 21, 2020)

Flat ground production cutting--my favorite picture. This unit had a judge decide the logging system--skyline up to road. This was at the top of the unit. Fallers in that area carry wedges, axe, lunch, water, shovel, little fire extinguisher, extra chains etc. They start at the bottom of units and work up the hill. Yup, these guys probably wedged a few trees. They were pretty good, and I hope still are.


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## woodfarmer (Oct 21, 2020)

I guess Brushwacker followed his own advice and let a tree drop the saw across his leg for nasty cut.


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## Ripandsplit (Oct 22, 2020)

Well I was taught from watching blokes who knew what they were doing . All Humboldt scarfs and found a tall stump and put tank after tank threw just practising angles and cut depths and learning where the end of my bar was as so I didn't over cut . I guess we all do things differently and nobody's way is any better or worse than the next. What ever works for you works for you . As long as it's safe saws are replaceable life is not. Production costs margins are never more important then a safe work place is my view.
Side note I didn't know what barbers chair ment quick Google and soon learnt. We call them tombstones over here . Not good what ever the name . 
Best of luck with your manual falling it's only practise.


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## olyman (Oct 22, 2020)

Westboastfaller said:


> Really good stuff, I'm learning a bunch


impossible...………….


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 22, 2020)

olyman said:


> impossible...………….


You got that right
They say,, "You can tell an Englishman.. but you can't tell him much"


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