# Why do people cut like this??



## deeker (Nov 27, 2008)

To waste time? Energy?? Or just plain stupid. Or am I missing something?
Is there any reason to make the felling cut this way???? I don't.





Nice ash logs heading to my mill.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 27, 2008)

Lack of training. You should have seen some of the stumps I made when I was 12-13, using a saw for the first time. Luckily for me, they're long since rotted beyond recognition.


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## Ghillie (Nov 27, 2008)

Are you refering to the downward angle of the back cut?

I've had someone try to tell me that it is easier to pull a tree over if the back cut is cut at an angle. Doesn't make sense if you are using wedges. you are not lifting the weight of the tree with an angled cut, you are wasting lifting force that is pushing perpendicular to the wedge.

Just an urban myth.


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## deeker (Nov 27, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Are you refering to the downward angle of the back cut?
> 
> I've had someone try to tell me that it is easier to pull a tree over if the back cut is cut at an angle. Doesn't make sense if you are using wedges. you are not lifting the weight of the tree with an angled cut, you are wasting lifting force that is pushing perpendicular to the wedge.
> 
> Just an urban myth.



Yes to their downward angle of the back cut. It makes no sense to me.
And wasting my usable timber in the process.


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## ShoerFast (Nov 27, 2008)

Not sure why, but stumps like that are everywhere. 

My $0.02 cents worth...

Way I been told to cut a mill-log is like this, start driving your wedges about were the back-cut stops (end of red line) , drive as you finish the cut to the hinge. 

looks like they tried to get that much fiber-pull? Ash seems to me a more predictable wood.


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## deeker (Nov 27, 2008)

That is the way I cut. Along the red line....and, hey!!! You almost cut my shadow!!


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## ShoerFast (Nov 27, 2008)

deeker said:


> That is the way I cut. Along the red line....and, hey!!! You almost cut my shadow!!



So there, I fixed your shadow, now you got something to be thankful for, Pilgram! 

Happy Thanksgiving!


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## JohnH (Nov 27, 2008)

Homeowner special


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## John Ellison (Nov 27, 2008)

George A. Finn III from expertvillage.com must have fell that tree.


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## 2dogs (Nov 27, 2008)

John Ellison said:


> George A. Finn III from expertvillage.com must have fell that tree.



That is what I was going to say. Check out his vid in the chainsaw forum. I'm sure the guy is good in his specialty but he does not know how to use a chainsaw.


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## Mike Van (Nov 27, 2008)

Hey, maybe Bob Villa cut it with his crapsman for a TV info-mercial?  Deeker, you're going to mill those? They'd head straight to my firewood pile without passing go or collecting 200.00.


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## forestryworks (Nov 27, 2008)

i just finished cutting in a 4acre patch for firewood and all the old stumps were that way... i went and talked to the owner (respectfully) and got him to come see how i do it (all cuts level in relation to the tree).

he said, the way i do it is the pro's way.

he also cuts with a poulan

ignorance is expensive to fix and usually not worth your time


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## retired redneck (Nov 27, 2008)

Looks like it was cut with poulan 25 with 12'' bar...


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## 385XP (Nov 27, 2008)

That stump is terrible we call that a farmer cut around here .


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## buzz sawyer (Nov 27, 2008)

I'd be worried about the wood below the wedge splitting backwards if there was enough force on the wedge.


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## ShoerFast (Nov 27, 2008)

There is a chance that the people that cut that way think the tree can't come back on them?

Never talked to anyone that cuts like that, but the conclusion here seems overwhelmingly 'a no-no' .


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## dancan (Nov 27, 2008)

I did a chipping job that the homeowner did all the cutting , every tree was cut like that with the tall side on the side that you wouldn't want the tree to fall so I just figured the theory is the tree can't fall that way against the wood  .


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## Gologit (Nov 27, 2008)

2dogs said:


> That is what I was going to say. Check out his vid in the chainsaw forum. I'm sure the guy is good in his specialty but he does not know how to use a chainsaw.



I agree with you and John...the guy is clueless about saws and cutting. But....imagine how many people watch him and, because he has a serious demeanor and a professional air about him, think that whatever he tells them is carved in stone. That's scary. That's real scary.

And the stump? Had to be an amateur. A pro would have trimmed it up or alap'd it before anybody could see it.


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## hammerlogging (Nov 27, 2008)

Maybe a half crushed can of Ol' Mill would have been more fitting for that stump.


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## [email protected] (Nov 27, 2008)

You should see where the firewood cutters around here go, the woods are littered with that style of stump. I asked a guy about it as I do things a little different and was told if you have to wedge you have a deeper kerf for the wedge to work in. 

Not long ago I didn't know any better but did realize I needed some knowledge and at least bought the timber fallers book and started to read as much as I can here. It never did sit well even when I didn't know better. The fact they are often seen on 2' of stump left in the forest was a tip-off that there was some "amateur hour" action happening.

I enjoy getting to look at stumps where the guys who cut them know what they are doing and try and understand why things are done the way they are.


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## Labman (Nov 27, 2008)

John Ellison said:


> George A. Finn III from expertvillage.com must have fell that tree.



Expert village? There was a big fuss about them on a dog forum I hang out on. Their dog experts are idiots.


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## Brushwacker (Nov 28, 2008)

dancan said:


> I did a chipping job that the homeowner did all the cutting , every tree was cut like that with the tall side on the side that you wouldn't want the tree to fall so I just figured the theory is the tree can't fall that way against the wood  .


 I don't really remember why , but I did that some when learning with the idea it would help the tree go the other way. I did learn though that once in a while the butt end would be pushed off the stump kinda sliding down the ramped angle when the weight of the tree dropped to contact the angle. Basically the tree would still be mostly upright , the but slides off the stump (usually, but not always when wedging ) and the tree usually falls the wrong direction rapidly. If your saw happens to be in the cut, its at the mercy of the tree and you better figure and scoot in the right direction very quickly or you just may only have God's mercy for hope. Its a very reckless situation when it gets to that.
That said with very small trees that I need to get a wedge behind and there isn't't enough area to put it behind the straight cut , I can gain that area by using an angle cut like that, but I try to keep enough holding wood such it cant slide off the stump. Wood in young healthy trees is more predictable and the weight of this size tree is more predictable and manageable. I don't recommend doing it because it is still dangerous , but the risk with larger trees is very great IMO. I'm referring to hardwood species,conifers might be worse. 
*So if any body here cuts like that , go back a learn the right way.  Chainsaw owners manuals and the Internet have information on doing it right which is very much safer , but still dangerous.*


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## ropensaddle (Nov 28, 2008)

Just plain old inexperience imo , I have made slight downward slopes
because; I hit a nail on one side making the saw cut crooked! That
however was purposeful which is different and even though I should
have stopped and sharpened the saw, I was not cutting for timber!


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## windthrown (Nov 28, 2008)

ShoerFast said:


> Not sure why, but stumps like that are everywhere.
> 
> My $0.02 cents worth...



Ain't that the truth! I see them everywhere out here, even in areas that are being cut the 2nd or 3rd time. Many 10-100 year old stumps have sloped back cuts. More common here are the one-plane sloped cuts as well.


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## buzz sawyer (Nov 28, 2008)

After thinking about this awhile.... When a tree leans back, a fulcrum is created where the sides of the back cut touch. The tree then acts as a lever against the fulcrum, pulling on the hingewood. A sloped cut raises the fulcrum and the force exerted on the hinge would be more sideways against the hinge and towards the notch. 

With a level back cut and lower fulcrum, wouldn't the tree leaning back create more lifting  force on the hingewood and therefore be more apt to pull upwards on the hinge, making it more likely for the tree to break off and fall? I really believe any difference would be minimal and any gains may be offset by other hazards created - like the force of the tree breaking off the wood below the sloped backcut.


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## Ted J (Nov 28, 2008)

John Ellison said:


> George A. Finn III from expertvillage.com must have fell that tree.



That can't be. Not in any one of his video's have I seen him ever...ever fell a tree! 

I stand corrected.... I searched some more! I Posted before I got to page 2.... Now I'm scared.


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## Humptulips (Nov 29, 2008)

buzz sawyer said:


> After thinking about this awhile.... When a tree leans back, a fulcrum is created where the sides of the back cut touch. The tree then acts as a lever against the fulcrum, pulling on the hingewood. A sloped cut raises the fulcrum and the force exerted on the hinge would be more sideways against the hinge and towards the notch.
> 
> With a level back cut and lower fulcrum, wouldn't the tree leaning back create more lifting  force on the hingewood and therefore be more apt to pull upwards on the hinge, making it more likely for the tree to break off and fall? I really believe any difference would be minimal and any gains may be offset by other hazards created - like the force of the tree breaking off the wood below the sloped backcut.



You're assuming that the two sides of the backcut are somehow touching. If they are the tree has already set back and you're screwed any way you look at it.
The back cut should not close up and all you've done is make an ugly stump and an even uglier stump shot to buck off the butt log.


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## Zackman1801 (Nov 29, 2008)

wouldent cutting like this also take you all day, cutting down at an angle like that makes your saw shoot powder it and it takes forever to cut. even if somehow this worked the way people think it does it would not be efficient to cut that way.


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## buzz sawyer (Nov 29, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> You're assuming that the two sides of the backcut are somehow touching. If they are the tree has already set back and you're screwed any way you look at it.
> The back cut should not close up and all you've done is make an ugly stump and an even uglier stump shot to buck off the butt log.



True - but that's my point. Assuming they already don't know what they're doing, is it better to be screwed by having your saw stuck or be screwed by having your saw stuck, running like He!! to avoid the tree, then returning to see your saw crushed. I'm not defending the cut, just trying to suggest the reasoning behind it, however flawed. I think any gain from this cut would be minimal and gives a false sense of security.


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## 056 kid (Nov 29, 2008)

There are no gains to be had..



I think mabe way back when saws weighed as much as there owners, the back cut was sloped to let gravity help in cutting.. just a guess


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## dancan (Nov 30, 2008)

I found a video by an "expert" that shows me how I have been felling is wrong .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rnon9_qAAg


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## John Ellison (Nov 30, 2008)

For whatever reason someone uses that angled backcut ( U tube or seeing someone else use it), you can bet that they are only felling trees with a favorable lean. With a fav. lean, you could even use a reverse angle backcut and it would still go " right where I wanted it". Would'nt that make a nice looking log.


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## windthrown (Nov 30, 2008)

You-Tube experts... gotta wonder..


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## Rftreeman (Nov 30, 2008)

dancan said:


> I found a video by an "expert" that shows me how I have been felling is wrong .
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rnon9_qAAg


you mean you guys don't so it the way shown in this clip, I thought that guy was the felling king?


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## dancan (Nov 30, 2008)

Rftreeman said:


> you mean you guys don't so it the way shown in this clip, I thought that guy was the felling king?



I'm getting ready to change my ways ... Just like I need  .


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## Gologit (Nov 30, 2008)

I've see that video here before. Somebody ought to put a bounty on that guy before some well meaning but clueless newby tries to follow his example.


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## redprospector (Nov 30, 2008)

deeker said:


> To waste time? Energy?? Or just plain stupid. Or am I missing something?
> Is there any reason to make the felling cut this way???? I don't.



Come on guy's. Can't you see the tennon sticking up from that stump?
You would make a cut like this only if you were replacing the tree with another of same size & shape. 
Cut a mortise in the bottom of the new tree, and match the angled back cut. That way you can drill through the piece sticking up in the back, and drive green wooden peg's through the tennon to hold the tree until it graft's itself to the stump. No replanting.














Well, it sounded good when I was typing. That's the only reason I can think of for a stump like that. 

Andy


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## dancan (Nov 30, 2008)

redprospector said:


> Come on guy's. Can't you see the tennon sticking up from that stump?
> You would make a cut like this only if you were replacing the tree with another of same size & shape.
> Cut a mortise in the bottom of the new tree, and match the angled back cut. That way you can drill through the piece sticking up in the back, and drive green wooden peg's through the tennon to hold the tree until it graft's itself to the stump. No replanting.
> 
> ...



+1 for thinking outside the box .


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## redprospector (Nov 30, 2008)

dancan said:


> +1 for thinking outside the box .



There was a box?
I must have missed that. 

Andy


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## 2dogs (Nov 30, 2008)

dancan said:


> I found a video by an "expert" that shows me how I have been felling is wrong .
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rnon9_qAAg



Did you bother reading the previous posts?


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## stihlkicken (Nov 30, 2008)

*italian guy?*

it would be interesting to see this experts rendering of "cutting salame for sandwiches".


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## hutch3912 (Dec 1, 2008)

Not only was the backcut stupid but he suffers from having to small of a saw. he was cutting a perfect circle about 12 inches into the butt. good way to get the butt to kick up in you face.


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## kbiv (Dec 1, 2008)

I've cut quite a few like that. Nobody told me, it just seemed to make it harder to fall the wrong way. Got a little more education now, so I try not to do that, or at least flush cut it and hide the stump so no one else sees it. 
I  

Sometimes there may be circumstances that prevent the textbook cut. Yesterday I screwed up my face cut so bad by misaligning that I finally said screw it, bored in and made a box cut. (Learned that pretty little gem right here!) It wasn't pretty, but the tree dropped right where I wanted it. Being a southpaw wrestling a 385 with a 24 in bar while having to stand in coals and cut into the burning trunk just wasn't mentioned in any of the falling books I've seen...

Here's an interesting stump. Found this while taking a walk at a park. Anybody want to start a bet on how fast the faller ran when this happened?


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## Haywire Haywood (Dec 1, 2008)

Jacob J. said:


> Lack of training. You should have seen some of the stumps I made when I was 12-13, using a saw for the first time. Luckily for me, they're long since rotted beyond recognition.



I take the evidence with me. If a stump looks bad, I cut it flat and chuck the embarrassment into the back of the truck.

Ian


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## Meadow Beaver (Dec 1, 2008)

I don't think the guys that cut the tree down were even thinking, let inside or outside a box.


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## dancan (Dec 1, 2008)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I take the evidence with me. If a stump looks bad, I cut it flat and chuck the embarrassment into the back of the truck.
> 
> Ian



I've been there .


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## pdqdl (Dec 1, 2008)

*It's easy, here's what happened*

inexperienced person attacks tree with dull, undersized chainsaw.

1. Face cut is too narrow.
2. Cutter can't quite finish the back cut because he didn't bring enough saw to the job.
3. "We've got enough cut now; tie a rope to it, and pull it over with the pickup."
4. Narrow face closes, huge torque on trunk leaves stump as shown in pic.


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## saw mutt (Dec 3, 2008)

I'm still trying to figure out why you would cut the sides of the hinge off.


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## stumpjumper83 (Dec 12, 2008)

I think like alot of the others that the guy had too small of a chain saw. For instance he was trying to fell a 20" tree with a 8" bar. No explation for the sloping backcut. 

On the subject of pulling trees with cats. Dont you cut the back cut an inch or two below the notch to help make sure the cat doesnt pull the bottom out? 

I've never pulled them over with a cat myself, I climb up 25' or more, tie a line in and pull on the line with something, 4x4 truck, farm tractor, I even used a telehandler to pull a 30" maple over by using this method.


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## Labman (Dec 12, 2008)

If you were using a wedge to fell the tree, wouldn't a sloping back cut mean driving down rather sideways? Did the stumps have marks from a wedge?


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## Zackman1801 (Dec 12, 2008)

saw mutt said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why you would cut the sides of the hinge off.



sometimes trimming the sides of the hinge a tiny bit helps with fiber pull especially on pines, but im only talking less than an inch on medium sized trees like this, it cuts down on the pull and gives you a better log that will score higher at the mill, some will also bore through the center a bit to help, but on a tree where the back cut has already ruined much chance for a good log at the mill, probably no reason besides he didnt really know what he was doing.


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## char (Dec 14, 2008)

Didn't know what he was doing, too short of a bar. Could/should have bored the face.

Wedging with a backcut like that pushes on your hinge and isn't as effective in lifting the weight of the tree into the face.


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## Mike PA (Dec 19, 2008)

The sloping back cut is easy. I was taught to cut them at an angle like that to get them going in the right direction and keep 'em going that way. we used to cut dead trees like that all the time, and almost never had a face cut. Just get a read on the direction the trees want to fall and start a sloping cut on the backside. I can't tell you how many trees I cut that way, but I did it 10 years like that. The reason I got away with it was because the trees dead for a long time and would simply break instead of barber chair. When one locust finally did b.c on me, it scared the crap out of me and I started wondering what happened. Then I learned the right way to do it because of that.


BTW - the angled back cut really is no slower, other than cutting through more wood.

I expect the guy cut the corners because that is what he was taught to do. Leave the heartwood for the hinge.


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## 056 kid (Dec 19, 2008)

Mike PA said:


> The sloping back cut is easy. I was taught to cut them at an angle like that to get them going in the right direction and keep 'em going that way. we used to cut dead trees like that all the time, and almost never had a face cut. Just get a read on the direction the trees want to fall and start a sloping cut on the backside. I can't tell you how many trees I cut that way, but I did it 10 years like that. The reason I got away with it was because the trees dead for a long time and would simply break instead of barber chair. When one locust finally did b.c on me, it scared the crap out of me and I started wondering what happened. Then I learned the right way to do it because of that.
> 
> 
> BTW - the angled back cut really is no slower, other than cutting through more wood.
> ...






HAHAHA B freakin S!!


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## 056 kid (Dec 19, 2008)

Mike PA said:


> The sloping back cut is easy. I was taught to cut them at an angle like that to get them going in the right direction and keep 'em going that way. we used to cut dead trees like that all the time, and almost never had a face cut. Just get a read on the direction the trees want to fall and start a sloping cut on the backside. I can't tell you how many trees I cut that way, but I did it 10 years like that. The reason I got away with it was because the trees dead for a long time and would simply break instead of barber chair. When one locust finally did b.c on me, it scared the crap out of me and I started wondering what happened. Then I learned the right way to do it because of that.
> 
> 
> BTW - the angled back cut really is no slower, other than cutting through more wood.
> ...






HAHAHA B freakin S!!


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## GASoline71 (Dec 19, 2008)

Mike PA... you're not serious are you?

If that is how you were taught... it is completely wrong. It's only a matter of time before you get your teeth knocked out using that technique.

...and yes... it is much slower to cut an angled back cut... even with a razor sharp chain.

Gary


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## Mike PA (Dec 19, 2008)

Yes, I was taught that way. Don't do it that way now, though. Once I had one barber chair, I knew there was a problem and learned why it happened. I learned a lot because of that one tree, which was about 10 years ago.


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## Griffbm3 (Dec 19, 2008)

I read his post and it looks like it scared him, so he corrected his technique to the correct way of doing things... 

J


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## Griffbm3 (Dec 19, 2008)

Of course I see that you already jumped all over that. I am a little slow here...


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## Labman (Dec 19, 2008)

Can somebody explain barber chair?


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## 056 kid (Dec 19, 2008)

when a tree starts commiting but you dont allow it to fall due to too much hinge wood and or crappy faces. So the tree slabs from the stump and falls, usually it will open up and come off a few yards up and then hit the deck HARD right where you are standing. so if it dont re-do your face it can drive you underground. Allmost lost a hand to a basketball sized white oak that had split.


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## retired redneck (Dec 19, 2008)

Labman said:


> Can somebody explain barber chair?



Tree will do a 360


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## Zackman1801 (Dec 19, 2008)

a barber chair is when the tree falls but it splits in half about 10 feet up, so then you have a tree thats fallen with its but sticking up in the air 10 feet and a bunch of wood thats holding the butt off the ground. hard to get down safely unless you have a skidder or something handy. it can also toss you and your stuff far away when the but kicks up, not pretty. i know some guys who have gotten kicked in the face so to say by barber chairs, they all lived but needless to say they made a quick trip to the ER.


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## BaldSawRunner (Dec 19, 2008)

I remember when I was a kid helping my dad cut firewood, there were alot of barber chair stumps that some other guy had made before we got on the farmer's property. 

Dad said, "That d##n fool is going to kill himself cutting down trees like that some day."

I do not recall reading the guy's name in the obituary though. Still, that's a bad way to cut down a tree.


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## TreePointer (Dec 19, 2008)

Barber chair picture here:







http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/dangers/dangers.html


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## forestryworks (Dec 19, 2008)

i worked on a thinning today and the landowner gave me the big challenge trees, while he took off whittlin' away on the smaller ones... every one of them was a sloped backcut, no face... i'd hate to trip and take a fall on one of those stumps

i explained to him what will eventually happen with his method of cutting - he just grumbled and kept on cuttin'


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## Labman (Dec 19, 2008)

Why barber chair, because you get a close shave?


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## dingeryote (Dec 19, 2008)

Gents,

There are a bazillion stumps like that around here,and many more that are simply cut at a downward angle.

My Cousin makes a single Fall cut , though I have warned him. He learned from the same gent that taught his dad, and that man cleared several hundred acres of trees WAAY back in the day. 
It ain't right, but that's the facts.

As for the "mini Chair" cuts, I think I have seen that angled back cut illustrated in an owners manual as a "How to". 

I can't swear by it, but I do believe it was in the owners manual that came with a Sears black and grey Crapsman that I deliverd to the Brother in law, to replace the saw(Crapsman) I kinda sorta ran over:blush: and destroyed.
This was about 1994 or 1995ish.

Anybody got some of the old Crapsman saw tutorials from then?

It might be in another Saw Manual, but I know full well it was in a Saw "How to safely" that came with a new Saw, and that leaves one of 5 I have bought in the last 20 years, which rules out all but the Crapsman... the rest were huskys and a Stihl.

OH!!!
I actually got a "Reverse" Barber chair the other day!!!

20" Sassafrass that had a hollow above the cut.
Thankfully it waited untill I started away from the tree, and the chunk that got flung missed anything important.
Being somewhat rotten and frozen likely added to the matter.
All the same, it's good to be cautious, and when you hear creaking and popping start too early in the cut..MOVE!!!!

I'll dig around and ask the BIL if he still ha the Literature that came with that nasty old Crapsman.

Stay safe!!
Dingeryote


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## JerryAtric (Dec 22, 2008)

Speaking of "Hollow". Has anyone else been pissed on by a Cherry? I was Starting my plunge on an over mature Cherry. It just so happened to be hollow and full of water. Sprayed all over me and stunk like Cat piss. Just needed fire wood but learned a lesson as well.


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## ShoerFast (Dec 22, 2008)

Labman said:


> Why barber chair, because you get a close shave?



Old school barber chairs laid back to give shaves, as a tree that barber chairs. 

The stumps also look like some kind of chair, barber-chair fits pretty good.


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## Labman (Dec 22, 2008)

You know, that kind of looks like a wheel I might reinvent. Good thing I learned about it here. Thanks everybody.


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## ShoerFast (Dec 22, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> i worked on a thinning today and the landowner gave me the big challenge trees, while he took off whittlin' away on the smaller ones... every one of them was a sloped backcut, no face... i'd hate to trip and take a fall on one of those stumps
> 
> i explained to him what will eventually happen with his method of cutting - he just grumbled and kept on cuttin'



I been told that there are not a lot of natural things that will cut a skidder tire, but a fire over a stump cut like that will char and harden it so it will easely cut a skidder tire. 

Can't be a lot of fun if hit with a snowmobile or quad either.


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## Zackman1801 (Dec 22, 2008)

wouldent really have to worry, most people who cut like this leave a good 3-4' of stump beneath it.


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## GASoline71 (Dec 23, 2008)

The angled/sloped backcut is kinda like natural selection... It's only a matter of time before they will get their teeth knocked out...

Gary


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## 385xp9106 (Dec 24, 2008)

*tree notch*

i dn ive seen that nothc alot to.ive never been taught 2 cut like that.the cox company now makes us use a birds mouth notch or we can get fined..the boar cut still works with it so it isnt that bad


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## 056 kid (Dec 24, 2008)

Whats a birds mouth notch?


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## redprospector (Dec 24, 2008)

056 kid said:


> Whats a birds mouth notch?



Around here it's like a Humbolt, and a conventional combined.
Sloped on the stump, and the log.

Andy


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## 385xp9106 (Dec 26, 2008)

056 kid said:


> Whats a birds mouth notch?



http://www.timbergreenforestry.com/tree 2 9.jpg thats what it looks like..thats the notch we have to use or my boss will get fined..they might go in an walk the lot after were done cutting it,the stumps have 2 be flush or just a little hinge


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## Zackman1801 (Dec 26, 2008)

385xp9106 said:


> http://www.timbergreenforestry.com/tree 2 9.jpg thats what it looks like..thats the notch we have to use or my boss will get fined..they might go in an walk the lot after were done cutting it,the stumps have 2 be flush or just a little hinge



....why?


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## goatchin (Dec 26, 2008)

Are you talking about when you are logging on mill-owned land? Some of the mills around here that own land will require that the loggers be NYLT certified i.e. GOL trained. In the pic that is posted, that is GOL style hence the bore cut, and the hinge size is already set.


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## Zackman1801 (Dec 26, 2008)

why benefits do you get from making your notch angled? ive always been taught to avoid that because it can present safety hazards. i use the bore cut and open faced notch but not like that. just wonder why they make you cut like that.


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## 056 kid (Dec 27, 2008)

I have never understood the i dea behind thoes shallow obtuce faces. If you wanna controle a tree, use the sturdiest wood straight across the middle of the stump.


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## idahohay (Dec 27, 2008)

Some notch just for he sake of notching.


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## 2dogs (Dec 27, 2008)

idahohay said:


> Some notch just for he sake of notching.



That is the Idaho wave notch.


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## Zackman1801 (Dec 27, 2008)

looks like a beaver got into there. 
there are 3 pines up where i play paintball that are about 36" DBH had were gutted by beavers and are left standing on about 5" of wood. im suprised they lasted this long. 

The open faced notch controls the tree well, its not the notch that steers the tree its hinge. the notch lets the tree fall since the wood is no longer there to stop it. Once its started to make is decent the notch no longer has a job and the hinge takes over.


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## (WLL) (Dec 27, 2008)

redprospector said:


> Around here it's like a Humbolt, and a conventional combined.
> Sloped on the stump, and the log.
> 
> Andy


that would be the open faced notch


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## 056 kid (Dec 27, 2008)

Felling trees that lean heavily puts tons of pulling pressure on huge wood and the stump too obviously. Selecting holding wood close to the outer portion of the stump raises the chance that the stump will peel especially on trees that have alot of flair. imo..


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## smokechase II (Dec 28, 2008)

*Hinge comment*

*"The open faced notch controls the tree well, its not the notch that steers the tree its hinge. the notch lets the tree fall since the wood is no longer there to stop it. Once its started to make is decent the notch no longer has a job and the hinge takes over."*

The tree can be steered by the notch.
A shallow slanting notch can be set up to deliberately roll a tree against a lean. (The face closes quickly on one side first and then rolls toward the more open part of the face.) 
This is more commonly done with a dutch block - (or other spacer placed on one side of the face. Picture a conventional with a solid rock or other item placed on the flat on one side.) Same principle also with a snipe offset. 

Second point here would be when the tree is a snag and does not have any useable holding wood because it is rotten.
What can be done then, if the lean to be conquered is relatively minor, is to make a deeper face and that will create a superior release in the lay direction.
So the hinge is irrelevant - no real strength anyway - but the face can direct the tree to a lay off the lean. (Because the fulcrum was moved to 'encourage' movement in that direction.)
{Caveat on this one is that for the newbee there is a good chance of trying this on a tree with too much lean and having it go over backwards.}
This technique does not have to be limited to just rotten trees.

------------

However; mostly trees are steered by a properly made hinge. Just qualifying this with other options.
With familiarity on the use of shorter/angled or deeper faces to alter felling direction think of hinge and face as a team in directional control in those instances.


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## smokechase II (Dec 28, 2008)

*Let's not forget wedges*

Trivia:

Wedges can of course steer a tree.

The hinge just holds the tree while wedges change the lean.

It is this changing of the lean that controls the felling direction.

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Just a concept thought.


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## smokechase II (Dec 28, 2008)

*Open face and birds mouth*

*"Birds Mouth:

Around here it's like a Humbolt, and a conventional combined.
Sloped on the stump, and the log.

that would be the open faced notch."*

===============

Stop. Everyone is correct.

West Coast term from years ago for what is elsewhere called an open face was a birds mouth.
Basically.
Exception to this is that often the birds mouth was even top and bottom. So similar but not exact.

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Red Green: "*You know me, safety forced*."


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## 2dogs (Dec 28, 2008)

Zackman1801 said:


> The open faced notch controls the tree well, its not the notch that steers the tree its hinge. the notch lets the tree fall since the wood is no longer there to stop it. Once its started to make is decent the notch no longer has a job and the hinge takes over.



The notch can indeed help steer the tree. If the notch is sawn so one side closes first the tree will swing away. A wedge placed in the notch (thrown in at the last second  ) will help push the tree away from that side. And of course a Humboldt will get the tree to the ground faster or give a launch to it. A gap will do similar though more exagerated.


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## redprospector (Dec 28, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> *"Birds Mouth:
> 
> Around here it's like a Humbolt, and a conventional combined.
> Sloped on the stump, and the log.
> ...



From years ago? I must be getting old. 

Andy


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## matt9923 (Dec 28, 2008)

Well i was cutting today for a guy. I started my cut, did the notch and then started the back cut he runs over and starts yelling at me that i was doing it all wrong and have to have the nothch on an angle like the picture. I tried to explain to him that he was wrong and the right way but he refues so to shut him up i did his stipud angle cut??? they were smaller trees so it worked fine but i did gut the stumps down alot lowwer i was embarased LOL 
He onley stayed for 2 trees and left thinking he showed me something? Ill let him think he won. The comment about ingnorance being expensive or soemthign is very true? talk about :deadhorse: peopel dont wana learn. idk about some peopel then you get these dumies who never ran a saw making how to videos? :help: Not good cause peopel think oh he has chaps and a helmet he must a pro.....
Safe cutting Matt


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## ropensaddle (Dec 28, 2008)

You know this made me remember a time when we had this overzealous tree guy on another crew that liked to examine other crews worksites. I caught him walking our right of way looking at stumps and such so, I decided to have fun.I topped some trees to drop later and left them standing for a week or so next time I seen him he was standing at the base looking up at the 20 trunk shaking his head lol. We bumped into them at lunch and this kid asked are you going to cut those poles down and I looked puzzled at him. I said what do you mean and he said those in between us that have no limbs. I said they are clear aren't they and he looked away, I never told him I cut them after their crew worked out of site  This kid had maybe worked there 6 months and just learned lateral trimming, good kid but too nosy for his own good. We left a couple of stumps high that were notched toward the lines after cutting them from a higher point just to mess with the inspector


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## matt9923 (Dec 28, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> You know this made me remember a time when we had this overzealous tree guy on another crew that liked to examine other crews worksites. I caught him walking our right of way looking at stumps and such so, I decided to have fun.I topped some trees to drop later and left them standing for a week or so next time I seen him he was standing at the base looking up at the 20 trunk shaking his head lol. We bumped into them at lunch and this kid asked are you going to cut those poles down and I looked puzzled at him. I said what do you mean and he said those in between us that have no limbs. I said they are clear aren't they and he looked away, I never told him I cut them after their crew worked out of site  This kid had maybe worked there 6 months and just learned lateral trimming, good kid but too nosy for his own good. We left a couple of stumps high that were notched toward the lines after cutting them from a higher point just to mess with the inspector



AHAHA i hear you soem peopel get worried about other people? dont know why. Gatta love the indirect fing with people. You know you did it and they know you did it but nobody says anything.


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## smokechase II (Dec 29, 2008)

*Another way Brothers and Sisters*

*"Well i was cutting today for a guy. I started my cut, did the notch and then started the back cut he runs over and starts yelling at me that i was doing it all wrong and have to have the nothch on an angle like the picture. I tried to explain to him that he was wrong and the right way but he refues so to shut him up i did his stipud angle cut??? they were smaller trees so it worked fine but i did gut the stumps down alot lowwer i was embarased LOL 
He onley stayed for 2 trees and left thinking he showed me something? Ill let him think he won."*

=============

When dealing with an individual who has been through a zealous training I have found carrying a copy of the 'Watchtower' handy. (Jehovah's Witness scary stuff)
Usually they'll get a glazed look and back off.

-------------

OK, so I wasn't funny. BUT, comparing falling fanatics with religious fanatics has its place.


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## smokechase II (Dec 29, 2008)

*Learning from every source*

One might wish to consider that having the most tools is a way to succeed.

Similarly, having the greatest knowledge ..............

There are numerous techniques that all of us don't have or haven't even heard of.

Don't limit your knowledge toolchest.


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## smokechase II (Dec 29, 2008)

*Safety and*

*"The notch can indeed help steer the tree. If the notch is sawn so one side closes first the tree will swing away. A wedge placed in the notch (thrown in at the last second ) will help push the tree away from that side. And of course a Humboldt will get the tree to the ground faster or give a launch to it. A gap will do similar though more exagerated."*

-----------

When looking at what other techniques might be available for you to use we have to consider that some methods are unsafe and should not be attempted.

*"A wedge placed in the notch (thrown in at the last second)"*

This sounds like a humboldt cutter, staying at the stump.

Safety. Fair enough. Is there a way around this safety violation for you?

*************

1) Use a conventional, as stated, and place wedge or other object prior to the back-cut. The bottom flat of a conventional face allows for this.
2) Use a humboldt but with a snipe offset to help take the tree in the desired direction.

The humboldt snipe is actually the best way of doing this as there is nothing to pop out.


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## Ghillie (Dec 29, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> *"Well i was cutting today for a guy. I started my cut, did the notch and then started the back cut he runs over and starts yelling at me that i was doing it all wrong and have to have the nothch on an angle like the picture. I tried to explain to him that he was wrong and the right way but he refues so to shut him up i did his stipud angle cut??? they were smaller trees so it worked fine but i did gut the stumps down alot lowwer i was embarased LOL
> He onley stayed for 2 trees and left thinking he showed me something? Ill let him think he won."*
> 
> =============
> ...



I thought it was funny..... Although with my luck, he would say "I'm interested.....Tell me more"!

Out of bullets or I'd rep ya'


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## smokechase II (Dec 29, 2008)

*Problems with blinders on*

One of the problems with open face zealotry is that people actually start believing it is fact.

Look at this narrow interpetation: *"The open faced notch controls the tree well, its not the notch that steers the tree its hinge. the notch lets the tree fall since the wood is no longer there to stop it. Once its started to make is decent the notch no longer has a job and the hinge takes over."*

There are all kinds of other factors that control the fall.

In a well done series of cuts, usually the hinge is the most desireable/superior 'tool' in controlling the fall. It is not the only one.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 29, 2008)

I have tried all those fancy notch stuff at one time or another and what I prefer is to notch exactly the way of intended fall. I then hook my 20 ton winch to it and cut it, I have no doubt it will go where I want it to. Thick thin hinge can and will fail, after 24 years of notching and felling a consistent hinge thickness and adequate pull is my failsafe. Properties of wood are the main deciding factor in thick thin failure but I have no need to doodle bug anymore. I want it right where I want the log no exceptions.


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## matt9923 (Dec 29, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> I thought it was funny..... Although with my luck, he would say "I'm interested.....Tell me more"!
> 
> Out of bullets or I'd rep ya'



Hahah ya thats what i was thinkin LOl


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## 2dogs (Dec 29, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> *"Well i was cutting today for a guy. I started my cut, did the notch and then started the back cut he runs over and starts yelling at me that i was doing it all wrong and have to have the nothch on an angle like the picture. I tried to explain to him that he was wrong and the right way but he refues so to shut him up i did his stipud angle cut??? they were smaller trees so it worked fine but i did gut the stumps down alot lowwer i was embarased LOL
> He onley stayed for 2 trees and left thinking he showed me something? Ill let him think he won."*
> 
> =============
> ...



Dern it I'm outta rep for you. That is a good one.


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## 2dogs (Dec 29, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> *"The notch can indeed help steer the tree. If the notch is sawn so one side closes first the tree will swing away. A wedge placed in the notch (thrown in at the last second ) will help push the tree away from that side. And of course a Humboldt will get the tree to the ground faster or give a launch to it. A gap will do similar though more exagerated."*
> 
> -----------
> 
> ...



BTW throwing in a wedge is a last resort when the tree needs just a nudge to avoid disaster. I'm runnig in cusssing and running out praying!


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## matt9923 (Dec 29, 2008)

2dogs said:


> BTW throwing in a wedge is a last resort when the tree needs just a nudge to avoid disaster. I'm runnig in cusssing and running out praying!



AHAHAH +1 rep That funny and true


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