# Is this a suicide climb?



## josephcox (Mar 26, 2007)

Debating on whether or not to climb this one. Any professional opinion on this tree. The bottom of this Oak is decayed more than 60%. The top is green and full of life but just take a look at the trunk. It litteraly crumbles in your hand. I took a 4 inch pocket knife and inserted it into the trunk all the way with no effort. I know if Dan Osman was a tree climber he wouldnt second guess it..but he is dead.


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## l2edneck (Mar 26, 2007)

Looks like a flop to me.......


but hey i might be dumb enuff ta climb it....

have to have more pics to determine........opcorn:


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## josephcox (Mar 26, 2007)

*Suicide climb*

I have considered adrop but there are power lines and a main roadway that will not allow that. This tree is actually at the entrance to a prestige neighborhood so even blocking off the entrance way is out of the question. Its either climb it or bucket it. Either way there is still a risk of the tree falling on its own while trying to lower some pieces out of it.


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## Treeman587 (Mar 26, 2007)

I'd prolly bucket that one


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## ddhlakebound (Mar 26, 2007)

I don't think I would risk that one even if nothing had to be lowered. As far as rigging it off itself, I wouldnt even consider it if I had to be in the tree too.


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## Magnum783 (Mar 26, 2007)

Well I thought about it then I looked at my left arm and saw the huge scar the is left from when they inserted the 8 screws and titanium plate when I climbed a pine that i thought would be safe. Looks like I was wrong. So now way would I climb it I would rent a man lift, hire a crane, or send it some other company to do but no way no how would I climb that thing rigging or not. I guess I might be a little skiddish seeings how my arm is still recovering. Just use your best judgement that is my advice. The fact that you posted it might be justice enough to say forget it. Just don't get hurt that is all the is imprtant. 
Jared


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## murphy4trees (Mar 26, 2007)

You hear every year of climbers getting killed when the tree they are in fails... But in my experience most dangerous looking trees (for the climber) really aren't... though if there was going to be a problem to cause concern, decay at the base would be one...

I would probably climb that and just be careful not to side load it especially and then work to reduce shock loads which can be done effectively with the right equipment and technique... If you have a bucket use it... If not, add the rental to the price, maybe even twice the rental.... If you charge enough for the tree you'll figure out a way to make it happen safely... 

Supply and demand dictates that dangerous trees are worth a premium... Not too many people will do the work....


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## maxburton (Mar 26, 2007)

When there's no other way, you can hire two cranes; one for you, one for the wood. Use lots of slings and cut small pieces and it can be done.


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## Timberhauler (Mar 26, 2007)

If I can't use two cranes,or fall a tree like that...I won't risk it


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## rb_in_va (Mar 26, 2007)

josephcox said:


> I know if Dan Osman was a tree climber he wouldnt second guess it..but he is dead.



I've read that Osman was very meticulous about ropes and rigging. He didn't just hurl himself off cliffs with some manila strapped around his waist.


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## Sunrise Guy (Mar 26, 2007)

Get a crane, or two, for that one. Otherwise, it's a no go. Your life is worth more than the money you'll make on that gig. Why risk it?


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## josephcox (Mar 26, 2007)

*About Dan the 'Man"*

Originally Posted by josephcox 


> I know if Dan Osman was a tree climber he wouldnt second guess it..but he is dead.
> 
> I've read that Osman was very meticulous about ropes and rigging. He didn't just hurl himself off cliffs with some manila strapped around his waist.
> __________________
> ...



Yes my friend, he was not just "very meticulous", he tested and restested several times and his companions also took the leaps that he did. I was not by any means referring to him to say that he was unsafe in his jumping/rigging, i was speaking about him soley upon his (what i call ability) to take risk. I am trully inspired by Dan Osman and the things he did. I know tree work is no comparison, BUT it is my life in this tree as it was his life on the leaning tower. I really just want to know other's opinions as to wheter this tree is worth the risk to climb...

...the opinion expressed in this thread about Dan Osman are mine and mine alone...Im sure others out there have something else or someone else to relate to. For me, it is comparing Dan Osman to this climb, but please don't let that be the focus of this thread. This reply is strictly for the guy who responded about Dan Osman. This may sound crazy to others, but i have a picture of him laminated and tapped to the inside of my climbing helnmet, so that everytime I get ready (to take a climb) I have my ispiration. Might sound stupid, but thats me, and not you. 

We the willing, led by the unknowing are doing the impossible for the ungrateful, and have done so much for so long with nothing, we can now do anything with nothing.
'CLIMBERS CREED'


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## newguy18 (Mar 26, 2007)

*i did a tree simaler to that one*

i did a tree like that and i climbed it without my gaffs.im not even a licensed pro yet and all i did was climb up set my wraps and cut small wood as not to put to much weight on any part of the tree. kinda wish i didnt have to climb with a stihl s10 though that old heavy thing i traded it for a husky 51.whatever you do be careful man some arent as crazy as me.bill howe:greenchainsaw:


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## gumneck (Mar 26, 2007)

Joseph

Here's a thought. You said you put a knife 4 inches into it with no problem. 

So, take a really long screwdriver (I have some 16" ers)and drive it in near the botom of trunk and do it again at 90 degrees from the first side. If you can drive it in easily and get it out easily....that would be a definate no go for me. 

Be safe.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 27, 2007)

I too like to probe the base, thump with a hammer, and then throw a line in the tope and pull it from several directions, looking to see how the stem bends.

One tree I did a pull fest on uprooted, though there were only a few roots left. Several of them actually failed at the stem, or partially failed.

I had a pecker poll yesteday (so many pecker holes I could not count) where I got to the level of the first cut (had to save the landscape lights on it) and the base cracked. I was glad for the TIP in the adjacent tree.


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## Treetom (Mar 27, 2007)

Looks like a 2-man bucket job to me.


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## Mtnman4ever (Mar 27, 2007)

josephcox said:


> Debating on whether or not to climb this one. Any professional opinion on this tree. The bottom of this Oak is decayed more than 60%. The top is green and full of life but just take a look at the trunk. It litteraly crumbles in your hand. I took a 4 inch pocket knife and inserted it into the trunk all the way with no effort. I know if Dan Osman was a tree climber he wouldnt second guess it..but he is dead.



Anthoer way to do this is with a small tracked lify they are like tye syder lify but aviaslble at renalt palce abpout $250 - 300 for 24 hors some rent half day . 
they have outriggeres and are more stable than the look can get into some really intersting places . . i rented one on a job i did yesterday .I was glad Idid it was like being able to climb but with out all the danger that comes with it . iwas not used to is but it was easy enopug to use . could put gear in it and go up inot the tree . lowwer it move around asi needed . and had a 100 ft white pine down it took a little longer than my climbing days well a few hours longer . 

or if you have the spave just drop the thing cut well above the rot use wedges . 
i wonder of u you can usr a lit that paintrers and othe conmtrators use i know tey are not ment for tree wirk though i have seem a good sized one used to fall treed bya good serviovce . they haul it arouind with a one ton it has wheels 
so no traler , if you had space to fall it without much danmger of hitinng things id fall it for ya 
Most guys in kno who climb would not touch it . 

good luck and let us knoiw what you did .


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## rebelman (Mar 27, 2007)

A gentle wind puts more pressure on that tree than a climber. If you can drop the pieces without rigging than I'd climb it. I like John Paul's idea of pulling it in different directions first. I use a ladder, and when I put it up sometimes I'll really pop it with the ladder, getting a feel for the shakiness, listening for hollows. Even a casual wind puts hundreds of pounds of pressure on the tree, once you lop a few major branches I would think the risk drops. IMO.


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## matty f (Mar 27, 2007)

Trees still standing isnt it????????? i have rigged out ash trees in worse states ..and walked away...you could feel them lifting on the 1 butress they had suporting the decaying carcuss....... there was no way buckets and cranes could get near them and they were over roofs...one i almost refused to do ,but when my boss had a go and ?????ed out spiking half way up i had to have a go! some of the best adrenalin felling ive had! go for it!


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## treehumper (Mar 27, 2007)

It's always in the risk assessment. Do the pull test all around while observing the movement at the root collar. Can you not get street occupation permit from the city to set a crane up and block the road for a Sunday?


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## Climb020 (Mar 27, 2007)

Really need more information to decide to climb it or not. Is there another tree close to tie in to? Is there a lean? If so, where is the rot in respect to it? With 60% rot it more depends on exactly where the rotten/hollow spots are. With something like that and no rome for a bucket, I would probally try to remove as much weight as possible before going up. Could use either a power pruner and a step ladder, that is within reason, or a rope chain to get some of the stuff higher up.


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## beowulf343 (Mar 27, 2007)

matty f said:


> Trees still standing isnt it????????? i have rigged out ash trees in worse states ..and walked away...you could feel them lifting on the 1 butress they had suporting the decaying carcuss....... there was no way buckets and cranes could get near them and they were over roofs...one i almost refused to do ,but when my boss had a go and ?????ed out spiking half way up i had to have a go! some of the best adrenalin felling ive had! go for it!



How long you been climbing matty? I've done worse too back in my young and dumb days but don't brag about them anymore-i just thank God i was lucky enough to get away with it when i didn't know any better. 

I like JPS's idea of the pull test. As long as you didn't shock load it, it looks like it might be ok. Hard to give an opinion unless you're standing right next to it though.


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## murphy4trees (Mar 27, 2007)

60% should be plenty for that tree... PLENTY.... The only problem is what if you think it's 60% and it is really 80-90%... then you could be in trouble...

I concur with the pull test being the most reliable (no resistoigraph) easy way to get a sense of the tree's stability. Trees that look bad often have a lot more strength than one would think. If the tree handles the pull test I would climb it, especially if you can start to bomb a bunch of weight before needing a rope... Minimize shock loads by side swinging limbs into the rigging and tying fairly close to the balance point. 

And of course pray before you go.. Seriously...

And of course there is no shame in walking away... There is plenty of work out there... this one may not be for you...

The ONLY shame would be in underbidding it.... Charge a whole lot for that tree.... Maybe you need some new gear to make it safer... and maybe you need to rent a bucket... or buy some new chains... Add it all to the bill... plus a large percentage for the pucker factor... and then some for all the time you spent here at AS thinking about it... And then some incase it takes longer than you thought cause you had to rig smaller pieces... And then some more for the uinexpected delays that might come up...

I'd say you're somewhere between 3 and $4K... maybe even 5...
What do you think you can get for that tree... are they getting prices? We probably should have started with that... 

Like not how can I take this tree down... but should I take it down for $X?

What do you all think??? what is a tree like that worth in your market?


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## (WLL) (Mar 27, 2007)

rebelman said:


> A gentle wind puts more pressure on that tree than a climber. If you can drop the pieces without rigging than I'd climb it. I like John Paul's idea of pulling it in different directions first. I use a ladder, and when I put it up sometimes I'll really pop it with the ladder, getting a feel for the shakiness, listening for hollows. Even a casual wind puts hundreds of pounds of pressure on the tree, once you lop a few major branches I would think the risk drops. IMO.



i agree with u. looks like an easy climb from the pics from what i see id climb it and it would all be bomb shots. i would rope nothing and whip er down in 20-30 mins. cake day 4 me. i would Surely pull in different directions and wear my crash helmet just to be safe. if you got a bucket use it and be sure to charge accordingly. a hazard looking tree like that brings in good money.


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## Dadatwins (Mar 27, 2007)

Pull test with several ropes is a good option, just make sure the directions you are pulling are clear of anything in case the tree actually fails the test and falls over. If you are not sure of climbing it then don't. In my experience any tree can be removed it is just a question of getting enough $$$ for the job. Bucket would probably be the safest option. I would price the job high enough to pay for it or just walk away. Be careful.


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## Timber_Hitch (Mar 27, 2007)

Looks like they graded the dirt around the base to high and killed the tree.
I killed a couple trees like that grading after a new septic system that was put in. A neighbor was a horticulture professor and told me thats why the trees died. The first pic Wow ! Dejavu


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## treehumper (Mar 27, 2007)

Without seeing a broader view of the site to get a sense of what surrounds the tree and relationship to the road. But $3-4K would be in the ballpark.

With the pull test be at the base watching carefully how the trunk moves, the root plate tilting if there is anything left of it, separation between the root collar and the soil surrounding it. No need to pull it to the point you risk pulling it over! 

This is a great tree to take the time and work up a detailed quote outlining the rational for the pricing. Don't be afraid to charge for doing this safely.


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## urbanlumberinc (Mar 28, 2007)

I wasn't gonna say anything, but I will anyway. I see in this thread some of the culture that I've seen injure too many people (climbers and otherwise) and kill exactly two. Regardless of the situation, to assume that something isn't going to fail just because it hasn't already is just plain stupid... I can't find a better term. True, the tree hasn't fallen yet, but by that same simple minded logic - a tree hasn't failed until it does. I'm just as guilty as the next guy, and maybee more so of oversimplifying such a scenario. The odds of that tree having a sudden and catastrophic failure might be as likely as hitting the powerball jackpot, but even that happens all the time. Me personally: I'm gonna do everything I can to make the odds of that tree taking me down with it as long as possible.
-Hope I didn't offend anyone, and be safe out there

-Scotty


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## Highclimber OR (Mar 28, 2007)

This is a real judgment call. Have I climbed trees that are this bad? Yes and more than I would like to admit. It all comes down to instincts and what you truly believe that you can get away with. For me personally, I would do it in a heartbeat if I could freewheel some pieces and maybe a fair sized top guided out with a rope, as long as the rot ain't too bad. If you are not totally sure about it then don't do it. An unsure climber is a danger to themselves and others, and there is no amount of money that can bring you back to life, or restore your abilities as a climber. I have heard many fortunate stories and quite a few ugly ones as well. GO WITH YOUR GUT!


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## BarkingMad (Mar 28, 2007)

*CULTURE of SAFETY!*

"Trees that look bad often have a lot more strength than one would think."
As Mr Murphy wrote, so way too many of us think. My guess is that a good number of climbers make it as much a matter of confidence in themselves as in the structure of the tree. This attitude is what kills people regularly. 
If a tree can't be cut with full allowances for it being WORSE than you think, one of these days you're going to guess wrong and we'll all get to read about it. There are so many ways to make a nasty job safer, including cranes, aerial lifts and creative rigging that it just doesn't make sense to decide that bravery and confidence can replace them all.
The issue is SAFETY and the creation of a CULTURE of SAFETY.


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## matty f (Mar 28, 2007)

beowulf343 said:


> How long you been climbing matty? I've done worse too back in my young and dumb days but don't brag about them anymore-i just thank God i was lucky enough to get away with it when i didn't know any better.
> 
> I like JPS's idea of the pull test. As long as you didn't shock load it, it looks like it might be ok. Hard to give an opinion unless you're standing right next to it though.


13 years ive been qualified and climbing for...aint done much else with my life so gotta brag about some thing! 





shockingly bad photo, but that was the butress of all that was left on a ash stem that looked fine but when you got up close you could see inotus had eaten atleast 70% away....trees are a lot stronger in that state than givan credit for...other wise it would of blown over in the first bit of wind.
So rigging out small pieces on a calm day is gonna be fine....but if your not comftable why not hire one of those platforms that can get in through real tight spaces..if thats the issue or use a bucket or crane.


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## John Brown (Mar 28, 2007)

*tricky removal*

I would not recomend to climb that for one thing once you remove weight on one side. The base (witch is severly rotted)would shift all its weight to the heavier side that still has limbs.The tree is supporting itself by the equal weight on each side.Even with a bucket you must take equal weight off each side or it may snap and fall towards the bucket.Your best bet would be a crane and to support the tree while you trimmed.


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## TimberMcPherson (Mar 29, 2007)

I would spend an hour with the throwball testing outer limbs, but a bit of weight on then to see how bad they are, if your able to tear em out pretty easily I would be looking at a spider lift. If it seem okay, and is dead around lines, if you havent got one, rent a power pruner, it allows you stay off the outer limbs and still get cuts in. Time consuming yes, but its way shorter than waiting for bones to heal.


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## soutz (Mar 29, 2007)

The fact that you have doubts is enough to warrant a crane.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 30, 2007)

One way not mentioned I have incorporated from countless experience taking down nasties is take a throwball set several ropes and tie them off to other trees in the area to shore up like guy wires!! I usually snug first line on strongest side of tree the other ropes make bowline on bight put working end through pulley or around tree through bowline and then cinch up!did this on a dead gum worse than this tree had ropes tied off four 
directions from tree like a pinwheel, it stabilized the tree enough to get job done!!!


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 1, 2007)

no tree is worth killing or worse permanently injuring yourself for!!!!!!!


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## treevet (Apr 1, 2007)

Just for one example in the "Art and Science of Practical Rigging" video set one of the producers I believe it was w Rip Tompkins and Ken Palmer was killed when a tree he was working in fell over (not related to the video but I think during the filming) it is mentioned and a dedication to him in the series.


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## clearance (Apr 3, 2007)

Treetom said:


> Looks like a 2-man bucket job to me.



Treetom, the voice of reason, anyone that says to climb it-put down the crack pipe. I mean it.


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## Soul Assassin (Apr 3, 2007)

josephcox said:


> Debating on whether or not to climb this one. Any professional opinion on this tree. The bottom of this Oak is decayed more than 60%. The top is green and full of life but just take a look at the trunk. It litteraly crumbles in your hand. I took a 4 inch pocket knife and inserted it into the trunk all the way with no effort. I know if Dan Osman was a tree climber he wouldnt second guess it..but he is dead.



The first pic looks as if there are not alot of obstacles around it, maybe there is. If not, why not just put a rope on it and drop it ?


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## Soul Assassin (Apr 7, 2007)

Oh man, I would never climb that. I'd get a bull rope in it...or several...tie a running bowline, tie the other end to my chipdump.....yell for evryone to run-away........put some pull on it with my truck. 

Hard to tell by the pics, but I might just back cut and run, not even dare to wedge it. Then charge the homeowner four grand....lol. Good luck , if you've already done it...I'd like to hear about it.


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## (WLL) (Jan 4, 2008)

ill bump this one up. just want to know how it went and what you used. from my chair the tree looks green and fairly small in a big open spot. every day i say im gona bring my camera and when i do it stays in the truck. i just want to add; if your skeert of that ya must be a :newbie: to removals. imo thats a cake climb. ill bet id be home before lunch lol!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mattfr12 (Jan 4, 2008)

I dunno about that one buddy dont make a stupid mistake id just get whatever you needed to get out of the lines out of the way and bomb it.


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## (WLL) (Jan 5, 2008)

BarkingMad said:


> "Trees that look bad often have a lot more strength than one would think."
> As Mr Murphy wrote, so way too many of us think. My guess is that a good number of climbers make it as much a matter of confidence in themselves as in the structure of the tree. This attitude is what kills people regularly.
> If a tree can't be cut with full allowances for it being WORSE than you think, one of these days you're going to guess wrong and we'll all get to read about it. There are so many ways to make a nasty job safer, including cranes, aerial lifts and creative rigging that it just doesn't make sense to decide that bravery and confidence can replace them all.
> The issue is SAFETY and the creation of a CULTURE of SAFETY.


great post i agree 100% climbing is always my last option. i dont have a good way to look at this job from here to say for sure, but by the look of the tree in the pic, climbing is not out of the quiestion. again its hard to tell from a picture. YOUR MUCH BETTER OFF SAFE THAN SORRY!!!!


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Jan 5, 2008)

We own a Bucket & I do beleive that's about the only way I'd tackle that one. You never know how bad the underground structure is. Don't risk all for a couple more dollars. The Old Guys point of view according to the photos.


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## Themadd1 (Jan 5, 2008)

Rigging could cause some serious shock to the trunk. 

If it is all chunking with little rigging I would say still not a good idea but can be done. 

Sub a crane and your life will be easier or sub it to another company with the proper equipment. The best part of subbing is that you get your normal cut without putting yourself or the homeowner's property in danger. 

Think about saving your neck not making more money. by the time you pay all of your overhead and your headache you will get just as much from the sub-fee.


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## southsoundtree (Jan 5, 2008)

*decaying oak*

what about plunge cutting into the tree to see the soundness of the heartwood?

If you have to ask if its a suicide climb, that's probably telling you something.

Bucket Lifts can be so fast and easy that its well worth the cost, which should be built into the bid anyway. Even if the HO doesn't want to pay what you want to get out of the job, plus the whole rental, you can still make fair profit if you have to put up a bit of the cost of the lift. You can move so fast with the lift, especially compared to the speed of climbing on sketchy wood.


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## Mikecutstrees (Jan 5, 2008)

*suicide climb....*

I read the posts.... many I agree with but many I surely don't. I can't see the tree first hand but think of it this way, what is your life worth to you and your family? What about getting hurt and not being able to work? From the pictures I agree that it looks like fill has been added and is killing the tree. The worst of the decay could be below the surface of the ground. I would not shock load this tree. If you had a bucket or lift I think the best bet would be to take small pieces and not unbalance the tree too much. Especially be careful not to leave weight toward hazards or your bucket/ lift. If the tree is in a protected area it could be well protected from wind and might be quite unsteady. Certainly be careful,smart, safe and get paid well for it.


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