# Triple or double axle dump trailer



## kcurbanloggers (Dec 9, 2021)

Hey all. Quick question for you. I am in the market for a 16ft gooseneck dump trailer with around 20k gvwr. We load these machines with mini skids, so the deck over models with tandem duals are not a good option for us. It has to be a low pro model. Most of those trailers have 3 7k axles but there are a few companies that make them with dual 10k axles. Everything I have read on line says that tandem duals are better than triples, but what about single dual axles? The single dual set ups are way more expensive -- Diamond C sells a dual axle gooseneck with 10k singles for close to 27k, whereas suretrac sells a triple axle for 17k. Both units appear similar in quality and build. What are your thoughts on these two configurations? I would not be super excited about constantly replacing tires, but you can replace a lot of tires for 10k... How much to you realistically give up in terms of maneuverability with a triple axle? Any experience you can share is appreciated.


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## Jhenderson (Dec 9, 2021)

More axles = more $$$ for maintenance ( brakes, bearings , tires, springs) + a triple axle is awful in tight spots and scrubs hard in turns. Try backing a loaded one up in anything but a straight line.
I’ve got a PJ GN dump with 8K axles. Did my first brake job this summer after 10 years of regular use. 8K brakes are 12x3-1/2 with oil bath hubs. . 7K axles have 12x2 brakes. It’s not hard to figure out why mine lasted like they did. I’ve still got 3 original tires too. They’re 17.5 instead of 16 inch wheels. 17.5 tires wear like iron and the ones on my trailer are regroovable. I was ready to trade up to a new trailer with 10K dexters but the price increase from Oct 2020 ( couldn’t get one built, covid) to April 2021 was ridiculous, so I sandblasted and painted as well as the brake job. That cost me less than the price increase alone.


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## Sandhill Crane (Dec 10, 2021)

I have a 16' Ultimate Dump, bumper pull. GVWR is 15,400 with 7k axles.
I use it for firewood deliveries, and my son has used it for renting equipment for some home projects.
Lots of tire scrub in not even that tight of spot. I've left tire marks on several driveways, and grooved a few decretive white stone, and gravel ones. I've wondered more than once if the tire would come off the rim on a couple concrete driveways.
I considered 8k axles because of the heavier tires/brakes. However, the tire upgrade was just a heavier China tire, and I had read to stay away from oil bath hubs due to leaky seals. I figured backing in tight spots would not help the seals, and I don't want to get oil on customers driveways. 8k axles/tires/brakes were a $2k option. Gooseneck was about $1,800 at the time. However if your not in tight spots, oil bath hubs would probably not be a problem.
Low Pro models: Mine is 82" wide inside the high sided box. Very tight to tie stuff down. Mini skid might not be too bad. I do however love the hydraulic tailgate for loading, and especially unloading equipment. And the mesh cover is on a hoop, quick and easy, I use it every time, and that's the point.
I recently saw "Dirt Monkey's" YouTube on a flex neck gooseneck trailer at a trailer trade show. He mentioned a video coming up on the Ultimate Dump.
I wanted 16' and high sides. I was going to order a Sure Track and the dealer couldn't give me a price due to (Covid) slowdowns, steel pricing and transportation cost increases six months out. I ordered the Ultimate Dump, no options, and it came fully loaded. The hydraulic jack was something I did not need, but was standard on the trailer. I love it now. I would have liked the telescopic hoist, not an option because of jack location. However, the jack being at the back of the tongue/front of box, means the tongue area is wide open, no tailgate interference. I think Diamond C might be better designed with channel frame vs box tube frame, and telescopic hoist option. Have not had a problem with scissor hoist however.
My trailer is a year old. Paint is powder coat. I've kept the chips touched up, but have one spot on inside of tailgate that began to peal. I sprayed it with WD 40.
I wish I had ordered the gooseneck version as there is 850 pounds tongue weight empty. I've never backed a gooseneck, run a tonneau cover, and the optional cost consideration overrode that choice at the time. I just have to be mindful of where the load is. I have weighed two cord loads, with combined gvw of 20,500. It's a good trailer for my use. Quite noisy sometimes, as it has fold down sides, which I've yet to drop down.
Edit: Another axle consideration. I found what I could on YouTube. Some guys running under cdl bought trailers optioned up. Blew brakes, and during the repair found the axle option didn't happen, just wheel and tires. Bought 8k brake parts and they didn't fit, 7k did.
Also these guys found on other trailers they had with 8k axles, that parts were hard to get, and very expensive. 7k parts are available most anywhere. Obviously that will change eventually, but you might want to order and stock them if your running a trailer for business.


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## Jhenderson (Dec 10, 2021)

The thought that oil bath axles are prone to leaking is ludicrous. Ever even seen an oil bath barrier type seal? What would backing in a tight spot have to do with axle seals. How many heavy truck axles have you ever seen with leaking axle seals? Everything over a 1/2 ton pickup has oil bath rear bearings. If they were prone to leaking you’d be leaving oil under the truck you tow your trailer with. 
As for heavier axles costing more? Yup. Worth every dime. Chinese tires? Yup, just like on your trailer. Never mind the name on the sidewall, read the country of origin. Sailun tires are the highest rated heavy trailer tires on the market right now. If you read the trailer forums you’d see people getting rid of their Michelin trailer tires for Sailun because they’ve been shedding their tread in less than a year and damaging the trailer in the process. 
You’ll be lucky to get 1/3 the miles out of your brakes that I did.How do I know? I started out in 1992 with a 10K dump trailer. Then went to a 14K. Finally for the last 11 years I’ve run my present 18, 500lb GN dump. Axle parts cost more but you buy fewer of them. Business 101.


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## kcurbanloggers (Dec 11, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> The thought that oil bath axles are prone to leaking is ludicrous. Ever even seen an oil bath barrier type seal? What would backing in a tight spot have to do with axle seals. How many heavy truck axles have you ever seen with leaking axle seals? Everything over a 1/2 ton pickup has oil bath rear bearings. If they were prone to leaking you’d be leaving oil under the truck you tow your trailer with.
> As for heavier axles costing more? Yup. Worth every dime. Chinese tires? Yup, just like on your trailer. Never mind the name on the sidewall, read the country of origin. Sailun tires are the highest rated heavy trailer tires on the market right now. If you read the trailer forums you’d see people getting rid of their Michelin trailer tires for Sailun because they’ve been shedding their tread in less than a year and damaging the trailer in the process.
> You’ll be lucky to get 1/3 the miles out of your brakes that I did. How do I know? I started out in 1992 with a 10K dump trailer. Then went to a 14K. Finally for the last 11 years I’ve run my present 18, 500lb GN dump. Axle parts cost more but you buy fewer of them. Business 101


How has your experience been with the PJ? I read somewhere that PJ has a lot of poor welds, but who knows. They are definitely priced more competitively than Diamond C, which is the only other manufacturer that will sell the 20k GVWR double axle. We use these trailers hard and need them to stand up to some tough abuse. It sounds like if at all possible, a twin axle would be a better way to go.


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## Ryan'smilling (Dec 11, 2021)

kcurbanloggers said:


> How has your experience been with the PJ? I read somewhere that PJ has a lot of poor welds, but who knows. They are definitely priced more competitively than Diamond C, which is the only other manufacturer that will sell the 20k GVWR double axle. We use these trailers hard and need them to stand up to some tough abuse. It sounds like if at all possible, a twin axle would be a better way to go.


I owned a PJ equipment trailer and I'll never repeat that mistake. I think it was five years old when I bought it and the powder coat was coming off in sheets by the time I was selling it two years later. Couldn't believe how rusty that thing was. The ABU trailer I replaced it with is almost twenty years older and looks way way better.


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## Jhenderson (Dec 11, 2021)

The op asked about welds, not paint. Did any of your welds fail? They no longer powder coat, but primer is an option when it should be standard. My powder coat peeled as well. That’s why I sandblasted. I’ve had no welds fail but mine was built 11 years ago and things change so I can’t swear to quality. You probably should go to a dealer and look closely. I have looked at Diamond C and their quality is second to none. So is their price. When I as looking they were about $5-6K more than PJ.


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## Ian178 (Dec 11, 2021)

Have you thought about just buying a dump truck? You have to get a cdl, but 20 to 30k goes pretty far on a truck. Just saying.


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## JustPlainJeff (Dec 12, 2021)

I can't comment on dual vs. triple axle trailers, as I've only had dual axle. But you couldn't give me a P J any longer. Had a few of them, as mentioned, shitty welds, splatter everywhere etc.....I've got Diamond C now, and for me it's been the best trailer brand I've owned.


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## kcurbanloggers (Dec 12, 2021)

Ian178 said:


> Have you thought about just buying a dump truck? You have to get a cdl, but 20 to 30k goes pretty far on a truck. Just saying.


I have a cdl. A dump truck would be great but we load these things with a mini skid. Full size skids are way too hard on lawns and I seriously doubt I could find a dump truck that was low enough to load with these machines. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


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## kcurbanloggers (Dec 12, 2021)

JustPlainJeff said:


> I can't comment on dual vs. triple axle trailers, as I've only had dual axle. But you couldn't give me a P J any longer. Had a few of them, as mentioned, shitty welds, splatter everywhere etc.....I've got Diamond C now, and for me it's been the best trailer brand I've owned.


I wish we could do a diamond c but they are an an extra 10k. Even if it is way better, its difficult to justify the expense. I'm not looking to spend near 30k for a 16ft dump when I bought a 12ft unit from sure Trac for 7k that has been excellent. It took five years of some nasty abuse before More than 3x the price for 25% more capacity just doesn't fit the budget for us.

I may be avoiding the pj and just having to go with the 3 axle. We're also pulling it with a little less truck than we should... From what I understand 3 axles are more forgiving if the truck is on the lighter side. 


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## JustPlainJeff (Dec 13, 2021)

kcurbanloggers said:


> I wish we could do a diamond c but they are an an extra 10k. Even if it is way better, its difficult to justify the expense.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


I completely get this. I paid too much (in comparison to other brands) for my newest trailer too. I paid more than for other brands, but I didn't have to pay for the two or three prices increases that have recently come about, because I ordered mine prior to those going into effect.


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## Sandhill Crane (Dec 18, 2021)

If I was to do it over again I'd go with a gooseneck.
My 16' high sided, bumper pull, dump has 800 pounds of tongue weight and 100 pounds of lift on the steer axle when empty.


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## pdqdl (Dec 18, 2021)

I don't have a dump trailer, but I do have a triple axle trailer (flatbed) with 7k axles. I have yet to have problems with skidding the tires in tight turns, but is certainly more prominent than on a dual axle. I thought when I bought it that it would be a problem, but it hasn't really bothered me. Of course, it is also longer than a 16' dump trailer, so the trailer just doesn't go into as tight an area as a shorter trailer might.

It is also a pintle hitch, instead of goose-neck. From my perspective, I wouldn't want a goose-neck trailer. They pretty much turn your truck into a tractor, as you can no longer use the bed of your truck for as much material. It helps that I am towing the trailer with small dump-bed Fords, rather than an undersized pickup truck. A pintle hitch trailer also has a much shorter turning radius when backing, although some folks have more trouble driving them backwards than the goose-neck variety. They don't track as well behind the truck, and they are more sensitive to load balance considerations.

I'm pretty certain that using a small dump truck with a pintle hitch dump bed will afford you a great deal more storage & transport room.


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## Jhenderson (Dec 19, 2021)

*Commenting on subjects you have no real knowledge of seems to be a habit of yours. Your ignorance of modern GN hitches is obvious.*


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## pdqdl (Dec 19, 2021)

Says the guy that admits he has no triple axle trailers. Who probably never owned a pintle hitch, either, except on his chipper. Ever wonder why most of them use a pintle hitch?

"modern" goosenecks?  They've been around forever.


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## Jhenderson (Dec 19, 2021)

What does a triple axle have to do with your lack of knowledge about GN hitches?
GN hitches haven’t been permanent for decades. It takes less than one minute to remove or turn over the ball and tie downs to return your truck bed to a flat surface.
I used to be able to ignore your stupidity but since the morons who bought this site made you a moderator that’s become impossible. I suggest you find a way to get your posts hidden from those of us have tired of your pedantic, yet uninformed posts lest you expose yourself for what you are.


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## Ryan'smilling (Dec 19, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> What does a triple axle have to do with your lack of knowledge about GN hitches?
> GN hitches haven’t been permanent for decades. It takes less than one minute to remove or turn over the ball and tie downs to return your truck bed to a flat surface.
> I used to be able to ignore your stupidity but since the morons who bought this site made you a moderator that’s become impossible. I suggest you find a way to get your posts hidden from those of us have tired of your pedantic, yet uninformed posts lest you expose yourself for what you are.


Reading between the lines here, I think our good man meant that when towing a gooseneck, you can't fully use the bed of the truck, and there's really no way around that. You can carry sheets of Plywood or other large items in the bed if you're pulling a bumper pull trailer. Can't do that with a gooseneck. Don't get me wrong, I'll stick with gooseneck trailers myself when I can because of the comfort going down the road, but there are pros and cons to each option.


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## pdqdl (Dec 19, 2021)

Thank you.
Kindly grind your axe elsewhere JH.

How 'bout you show me a picture of your truck carrying a load of firewood in the bed while you are towing your GN trailer. HMMM?


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## Jhenderson (Dec 19, 2021)

Why would I carry firewood in the bed when I’m grossing 29K? If I did choose to do so how much space would I loose to a 5 inch round tube ? Just to refresh your limited knowledge, the actual gn itself is higher than the bed so it doesn’t interfere with anything below the rails. So much for “ You cannot use the bed of your truck for as much material”.
Ps. I started out using a lunette over 30 years ago. It didn’t take long for me to figure out there were much better options for towing heavy on road. I guess some of us learn faster than others.


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## Jhenderson (Dec 19, 2021)

pdqdl said:


> Thank you.
> Kindly grind your axe elsewhere JH.
> 
> How 'bout you show me a picture of your truck carrying a load of firewood in the bed while you are towing your GN trailer. HMMM?


Suppose you show me a picture of your DL so as not to hide behind a screen name without an address?


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## pdqdl (Dec 19, 2021)

Oh Yeah! I forgot. Everyone knows that pintle hitches are unsuitable for heavy loads.




I can see a goose-neck coming in real handy here. 29k isn't really much weight in the grand scheme of heavy loads on the road.

This isn't a fight you can win JH. You are making poor arguments that make no real sense, and your anger at me is clouding your judgment.
Please just give it a rest.


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## les-or-more (Dec 19, 2021)

kcurbanloggers said:


> Hey all. Quick question for you. I am in the market for a 16ft gooseneck dump trailer with around 20k gvwr. We load these machines with mini skids, so the deck over models with tandem duals are not a good option for us. It has to be a low pro model. Most of those trailers have 3 7k axles but there are a few companies that make them with dual 10k axles. Everything I have read on line says that tandem duals are better than triples, but what about single dual axles? The single dual set ups are way more expensive -- Diamond C sells a dual axle gooseneck with 10k singles for close to 27k, whereas suretrac sells a triple axle for 17k. Both units appear similar in quality and build. What are your thoughts on these two configurations? I would not be super excited about constantly replacing tires, but you can replace a lot of tires for 10k... How much to you realistically give up in terms of maneuverability with a triple axle? Any experience you can share is appreciated.


You are comparing apples and oranges. Low pro trailers are low because the tires and wheels are beside the bed, while you could build a trailer with duals but between the tires it would only be 4 foot wide. Low pro's are limited to 80-85" bed width depending on tire and wheel combinations. They are all limited to 102" maximum width, so if you do not want to climb the extra height of a deck over you are stuck going to three or more axles to carry the weight, it is what it is.


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## pdqdl (Dec 19, 2021)

That's an excellent point! I hadn't thought to mention that.


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## pdqdl (Dec 19, 2021)

I looked up all the Diamond C dump trailers. All their gooseneck trailers are above the wheels. Low profile dumper doesn't seem to be an option for that manufacturer. If you want a gooseneck trailer, I think there isn't much functional difference between the 2 or 3 axle configuration. It would boil down to your particular uses and preferences. 

Dual axle with tandems actually has better flotation on soft ground. 8 tires vs. 6, with less scrubbing in turns.
Triple axle has a narrower tire path (easier to dodge stuff on the road) with better braking capacity (6 brakes vs 4) and more commonly available (and cheaper) axle parts and greater redundancy in the event of a failure. Tire swaps are easier, too.


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## Jhenderson (Dec 19, 2021)

pdqdl said:


> Oh Yeah! I forgot. Everyone knows that pintle hitches are unsuitable for heavy loads.
> 
> View attachment 949531
> 
> ...


 If lunette hitches were superior every 18 wheeler on the road would use one. So would heavy equipment haulers, but they don’t. They use detachable 5th wheels. Dump trucks use a lunette because they can’t use a 5th wheel or GN inside a body 5-6 ft off the ground and there are no ball hitches to handle 20 tons or more. If there were, the’ed use them because a ball removes 99% of the slop in the ring to pintle joint, and allows for zero vertical slop, thus improving the ride tremendously . Now, how much room for cordwood have I lost with that 5 inch diameter receiver? 29k for a 1 ton pickup and trailer borders on max legal load. I mention that because it’s obvious you don’t know.
And I’m waiting for your ID, in case you’ve forgotten.
Ps. 4 brakes of 3-1/4 x12 provide more braking ability than 6 of 2x12. I guess among the many things you pontificate upon without actual knowledge is the fact that heavier axles use larger brakes. 10K axles are also available in single wheel versions not just duals, and dual wheel axles aren’t any wider than low pro single. 
But please, by all means keep on typing. Nothing pleases me more than showing the members here what an ignorant, arrogant, ass their new moderator is.


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## pdqdl (Dec 19, 2021)

What was your point again?


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## Jhenderson (Dec 19, 2021)

pdqdl said:


> What was your point again?


You just made it!


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## pdqdl (Dec 19, 2021)

2 x 10k= 20k GVWR
3 x 7k=21k GVWR.

I'm sure you're right about that relative braking capacity. I hadn't considered that the FMCSA might not know about your advanced expertise on the topic.

This continuous harping at me is dumb. Kindly pick a topic where you are more skilled to argue about.
I also kind of doubt the OP has any interest in following this thread anymore, either.


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## Jhenderson (Dec 20, 2021)

Why is pointing out your posting of incorrect information “ harping “ on you? The OP came here looking for advice. Posting incorrect or blatantly false statements is detrimental to his future as well as the future of this site. You’ve failed to so much as even recognize your lack of actual knowledge of the subject at hand and have continued to post false statements. I pointed them out to warn others here of your proclivity for this behavior. Hopefully the new owners of this place will figure out their mistake before you do irreparable harm.


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## Ryan'smilling (Dec 20, 2021)

It's harping.


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## CUCV (Dec 20, 2021)

kcurbanloggers said:


> I wish we could do a diamond c but they are an an extra 10k. Even if it is way better, its difficult to justify the expense. I'm not looking to spend near 30k for a 16ft dump when I bought a 12ft unit from sure Trac for 7k that has been excellent. It took five years of some nasty abuse before More than 3x the price for 25% more capacity just doesn't fit the budget for us.
> 
> I may be avoiding the pj and just having to go with the 3 axle. We're also pulling it with a little less truck than we should... From what I understand 3 axles are more forgiving if the truck is on the lighter side.
> 
> ...



Have you considered the 16' Suretrac with tandem 8K axles? Your probably only lacking 500 weight capacity in the extra 4' over your existing trailer capacity per 4' section of trailer.
I've had great luck with PJ trailers and have owned several. I recall a time when there was a powder coat peeling issue and remember discussing it with my dealer on a new trailer purchase and they informed me of the issue and how it was resolved on new builds. I've never had a failed weld from normal or heavy use but have lent out my trailers to friends who have had major weld or structural failures with other name brand trailers. Every time we look at the failure area then compare it to my PJ and say, yeah it won't likely fail there on the PJ.
A friend has a 16' 8ton PJ dump that I borrow occasionally. It's a great trailer that I load with my mini.
It seems like goosenecks and 3 triple axle trailers are regional, I rarely see them here in the North East. When I do see them they are usually long like 30'+. I used to run a 28' boat on a triple axle trailer and it was a horrible experience with tire, rim, axle, suspension failures. The boat yards, ramps and access areas were super tight.


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## Del_ (Dec 20, 2021)

The three dump trailers that I've owned including the one I now have are all bumper pull because I use the bed of the truck for tools, etc.

Often my truck carries a bed topper which works out well with a bumper pull trailer.

Plus my chipper and stump grinder are bumper pull.

I'd like to see a goose neck pull behind stump grinder.


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## pdqdl (Dec 20, 2021)

Yeah, but a gooseneck is still the best option for a heavier load on a lighter truck. Each trailer has it's own advantages.

The average pickup would be in trouble if they hooked up to my trailer, even if it was a one-ton. I think the OP is only considering gooseneck trailers.


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## morewood (Dec 24, 2021)

I currently have a 16' Diamond C bumper pull dump trailer. Quality is second to none with all the HD options. I am currently purchasing a Big Tex 22GN with 10k axles..duals. That purchase is due to availability, price point, and usage expectations. It is not a Diamond C by any stretch of the imagination. I will always buy quality when possible. Concerning the comment about all of their GN do trailers being over the axle, not sure that is correct. I know on their low pro equipment trailers they have a GN OPTION, but they aren't shown with the GN trailers, the dump trailers may be the same way. Just something to look at.

Shea


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## CJ1 (Dec 24, 2021)

Wasn't going to comment on this thread but as someone who either owns or have owned all the trailers mentioned this is my thoughts. The ONLY time a gooseneck is better is max loads. I still have a tandem axle dual gooseneck just for hauling my equipment that is too heavy for the tandem single tire. As soon as I can afford a 10k super single tilt trailer it will more than likely get sold as empty or lightly loaded they beat the crap out of you. My triple axle gooseneck is no different and I actually air down the tires if I am going a long ways empty, then air up when loaded, what a pita. All of my trailers that I pull with a 1 ton are going to be bought with 8-10k tandem axles and single wheels from now on. I can't say I have had any tire wear issues with the 3 axle but you will do more damage to driveways turning them. If I am heavily loaded I am careful about not turning sharp. I have had 0 issues with oil bath axles and if you are worried just pack them with grease but IMHO that defeats the advantage of a oil bath axle. Cj


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## morewood (Dec 24, 2021)

I went and checked. It is an option for a gooseneck package on the dump trailers. This particular one was a low pro dump trailer.


My particular reason for a GN is the higher weight rating for towing a mini excavator. I use a low pro tilt deck for the tractor with attachments, but sometimes that's not always long enough. 

Shea


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## softdown (Dec 24, 2021)

My favorite expression in 2021 is "pros and cons to everything". I have a 20' dump trailer with 4' sides and 96" width. Unless my math is wrong that can carry about 5 cords of fire wood(edited).

The steel beams are about 20" tall. This trailer is heavy. It is also hard to back into skinny driveways from skinny mountain roads. Damn near impossible with the long wheel base that my 12' flat bed dually has.

Man alive do I wish I had a crew cab on more trucks. The dog takes the passenger seat. His food and water take the floor space. I am 6' 4" myself. Leaving enough spare room for an energy drink and chewing gum.

I've had neck surgery, after losing a fight with an 18 wheeler, and my dog likes to stand in front of the passenger mirror. Backing goosenecks has been quite a challenge for me. I'm looking for a 20' pintle hitch 3 axle equipment trailer right now. The 36' equipment trailer with the gooseneck gives me a hard time too often.

I believe 7K axles are far less expensive than 10K axles. I've had emergency road service/axle replacement after the hub for the oil bath fell off. That was damned expensive.

8 tires vs 6 yet slightly less cargo capacity
2 braking axles vs 3 braking axles. I'd rather have three when I, once again, have to stand on the brakes on the interstate while pulling a serious load.

There are a gazillion trailer options because everything has pros and cons.


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## softdown (Dec 24, 2021)

I think 10k axles have 5" tubes while 7K axles have 3.5" tubes. 8 tires vs 6 tires. I wonder how they compare weight wise.


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## pdqdl (Dec 24, 2021)

I don't know for sure, but I suspect a 3-axle trailer is usually lighter than a 2-axle. If nothing else, the frame might be built a pinch lighter because the load is distributed more evenly across the length of the trailer. As to the tires, the 3 axle needs heavier tires, and there are more springs and mounting hardware. Fewer tires, more hardware. 

Tough call as to final weight. I think that will mostly depend on the manufacturer.


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## H-Ranch (Dec 24, 2021)

softdown said:


> I have a 20' dump trailer with 4' sides and 96" width. Unless my math is wrong that can carry about 24 cords of fire wood.


If you stacked wood level with the sides you would have 5 cords. Depending on species call it 5000 lb per cord and you're already over what pickup trucks are rated at with a conventional trailer. 24 cords would be 120,000 lb.


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## Jhenderson (Dec 25, 2021)

Your reasoning is as bad as your math. 
As discussed before, 10 K axles are available in single wheel configuration. 10K brakes are larger than 7 K and provide More braking power, 3 - 7K axles are no cheaper than 2-10K , and no oil bath cap ever “ Fell off” . They get knocked off by careless drivers. If they fell off every class 8 truck on the road would be sitting when the front hubs self destructed.


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## softdown (Dec 25, 2021)

H-Ranch said:


> If you stacked wood level with the sides you would have 5 cords. Depending on species call it 5000 lb per cord and you're already over what pickup trucks are rated at with a conventional trailer. 24 cords would be 120,000


OK - I was told a cord was 3' x 3' x 3 - roughly a pick up short bed load. It is 8' x 4' x 4'. More than twice what a long bed can comfortably carry - with 18" sides. 
In the Colorado mountains we deal with aspen and pine. The dry weight changes significantly in this arid air.


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## pdqdl (Dec 25, 2021)

3x3x3 is a cubic yard, the usual measure for dirt and gravel. A cubic yard of topsoil is generally a bit less than 3k lbs. Gravel, sand, & concrete are somewhere close to 3k per cubic yard, depending very much on the source of the material. Some concrete comes in at more than 2 tons/cubic yard.

These are important considerations if you are toting these materials rather than firewood.


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## softdown (Dec 25, 2021)

A cubic yard of cement mix, in the yellow bags, weighs about 3500 pounds as memory serves.


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## pdqdl (Dec 25, 2021)

I think you are probably about right on that.

I buy concrete blocks that have 24 cu ft. in them. The guys at the plant that makes them say that they can weigh up to 4k, depending upon the nature of the mix. I think most of the blocks come in at 3k. Some concrete is heavier than other batches, but I'm not sure how.


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## softdown (Dec 26, 2021)

Stronger concrete contains larger media. Small rocks instead of gravel. I would guess the ultimate weight is determined by the media composition. But a variance from 3K to 4K sounds high.


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## pdqdl (Dec 26, 2021)

That was always my thought too. I always thought how much and what type of cement and how much water was always a factor, too.


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## rarefish383 (Jan 18, 2022)

Some good trailers have been named. Take a look at Pequea trailers. I started with a single, 6'X8' dump. I had friends that got Brimar and EZdumpers. Both were rust buckets in 5-6 years. I sold mine for almost what I paid for it 15 years later. Absolutely zero rust through. Bought a duel 6'X10' and it's just as tough. I know you are looking for a bigger trailer, I'd just recommend taking a look at Pequea's line up.


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## les-or-more (Jan 18, 2022)

Jhenderson said:


> Your reasoning is as bad as your math.
> As discussed before, 10 K axles are available in single wheel configuration. 10K brakes are larger than 7 K and provide More braking power, 3 - 7K axles are no cheaper than 2-10K , and no oil bath cap ever “ Fell off” . They get knocked off by careless drivers. If they fell off every class 8 truck on the road would be sitting when the front hubs self destructed.


Yes 10k axles are available on singles.
Yes their brakes are bigger.
Yes the single tires are more expensive than duals.
7K axles are a quite a bit cheaper, the tires are cheaper, the axle kits are spread out more on triaxles allowing for a lighter frame, a lighter frame allows for more payload out of the same GVW. That is the goal, payload, people focus way too much on having heavy frames, instead of a balance between frame size, design and axle configuration.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 22, 2022)

*No, 2single tires for a 10K axle aren’t more expensive than 4 for duals. The frame and 3 axles on a top of the line 21,000lb trailer isn’t appreciably lighter than the frame and 2, 10K axles . While 3, 7K axles are cheaper up front, the maintenance on 3 lighter duty axles will far outweigh the extra cost of a quality 10K setup over the life of the trailer. You can pay now, or pay later. Been there, done that, multiple times.*


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## CaseyForrest (Jan 26, 2022)

As an owner of a dual axle Diamond C Gooseneck with an engineered frame, I can attest to the quality of the trailer over PJ, Sure Trac, Load Trail et al. Is it a worth a $10,000 premium over a triple axle Sure trac?? Only you can decide that.

You wont be giving up any maneuverability, you're just spreading the load out over 3 axles instead of 2. The trailer will pivot on the center axle and the front and rear axle will scrub, so you're not REALLY creating more tire wear, other than it will be more pronounced on the triple axle over the double axle. Id think its a wash, but I have never owned a triple axle. I would personally still be inclined towards 2 axles instead of 3.

Diamond C customer support seems to be top notch as well. When I got my trailer home and went to grease the equalizer pins on the suspension, one of them wouldn't take grease. They sent me 2 new ones immediately.

I would also recommend the Shocker... once you dial in the air pressure for given loads, it pulls so much smoother.


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## les-or-more (Jan 26, 2022)

CaseyForrest said:


> As an owner of a dual axle Diamond C Gooseneck with an engineered frame, I can attest to the quality of the trailer over PJ, Sure Trac, Load Trail et al. Is it a worth a $10,000 premium over a triple axle Sure trac?? Only you can decide that.
> 
> You wont be giving up any maneuverability, you're just spreading the load out over 3 axles instead of 2. The trailer will pivot on the center axle and the front and rear axle will scrub, so you're not REALLY creating more tire wear, other than it will be more pronounced on the triple axle over the double axle. Id think its a wash, but I have never owned a triple axle. I would personally still be inclined towards 2 axles instead of 3.
> 
> ...


The tire wear is worse with 3 axles, but the tires are cheaper. A 10k axle the tire and wheel combo is going to be upwards of $500 a piece if they will each carry 5k. The triple only requires 16" E rated tires which are cheap over all. I built trailers for a couple of years, we shipped several hundred a year. I am certain the cost to build a tri axle is quite a bit less than a tandem.
I built my trailer in 2000 it is 24 feet long and routinely carries equipment that weighs it GVW, so overloaded. It only has an 8 inch channel frame, rust will put it out of service from road salt. I spent a crap load when I built it buying epoxy paint and primer. It desperately needs to be sandblasted and repainted but has held up exceptionally well under our winter road conditions. I built it with tie downs and front and rear ramps to haul snowmobiles as well.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 26, 2022)

Fayette trailers ( where I do business) has a 235/75/17.5 Provider on a steel wheel for $375. These are the same tires I’ve gotten 11 years and over 100,000 miles on. They’re rated at 6000lbs and are regroovable. A singe 16 inch on a dual rim is $275. I don’t see the savings.


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## les-or-more (Jan 26, 2022)

Jhenderson said:


> Fayette trailers ( where I do business) has a 235/75/17.5 Provider on a steel wheel for $375. These are the same tires I’ve gotten 11 years and over 100,000 miles on. They’re rated at 6000lbs and are regroovable. A singe 16 inch on a dual rim is $275. I don’t see the savings.


375 X4 =1500
411X3 =1233








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$3740

$2000 difference in price from same place for the two kits. Then you deduct the lighter frame, steel costs could easily be another grand off the total cost.
Then look at the extra carrying capacity of the tri-axle because the axles will carry another thousand and the trailer is lighter so will carry more yet.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 27, 2022)

Axle kits? I didn’t realize the OP was building, I thought he was buying. The specs on the 10K kit make your point on tires. The ones provided won’t cover the axle wt. What else in those kits is sub par? 
I don’t understand your reference to 411 x 3 vs 375 x 4.
You originally were talking tire and wheel cost. How many times are you going to replace cheap tires in 100,000 miles? Particularly in tri axle applications. Decent tire/ wheel combos over 3500lbs are about $250 each. Decent , not the best. Cheap isn’t always the least expensive. A light frame? Add in the 3rd axle , springs, hangers, etc. If I’m looking to dump a lot of wt, or pull my trailer in and out of rough landings on construction sites , I prefer plenty of frame. Compare the frames on a a 10 wheeler to a single axle dump truck. 
You’re also overlooking the additional wt and cost of a heavy hoist you need to dump that extra wt you can carry. That’s built into a quality trailers price tag. 
I guess it comes down to $$$ vs quality/ cost of ownership per mile. We’ve become a penny wise , pound foolish society. 30 years of pulling dump trailers with pickups has given me an education. Maintenance can eat your profit margins quickly .


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## les-or-more (Jan 27, 2022)

Jhenderson said:


> You originally were talking tire and wheel cost. How many times are you going to replace cheap tires in 100,000 miles? Especially in triple axle trailers. Cheap isn’t always the least expensive. A light frame? Add in the 3rd axle , springs, hangers, etc. If I’m looking to dump a lot of wt, I prefer plenty of frame. You’re also overlooking the additional wt and cost of a heavy hoist that comes in the sticker of that higher quality trailer I referred to. Axle kits? I didn’t know the OP was building his own trailer.


I have been responding to your assertions.


Jhenderson said:


> 3 - 7K axles are no cheaper than 2-10K ,


The tires are cheaper the axles are cheaper the hanger kits are cheaper and by a significant amount. Who is building the trailer is irrelevant, it is cheaper to build a tri axle 10 ton trailer than a tandem axle trailer. I have done my best to give you an apples to apples comparison, my own personal preference is for a tandem axle configuration, that however doesn't negate the facts. A trailer with 3 7k axles can legally carry more weight. 
Most trailers around here are in the scrapyard because of corrosion not for being broken. We could argue for eternity over every little detail. I have attempted to point out that like many things this is subjective, what you consider to be high quality may not be to someone else. Trailers are built to haul payload, the lighter the trailer the more payload you can carry. We all know the lighter the frame the shorter the lifespan, the key is finding the balance we find acceptable.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 27, 2022)

While I disagree on some points you make I understand what you’ve said.
Please tell me what you meant by 411x3 vs 375 x4 ?
6 Tires and wheels that carry 3500 lbs cost the same as 4 17.5 tires that carry 6000 lbs. and you’ll change the 6 more often.
I don’t deny the axles are cheaper.
I’d like to see tare wt’s on both considering the extra axles and a bigger hoist to dump all that extra wt. That’s assuming the manufacturer doesn’t upgrade the frame size to accommodate the increased gross. 
It’s all irrelevant considering the OP is long gone from this discussion.


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## les-or-more (Jan 27, 2022)

Jhenderson said:


> I understand what you’ve said. Please tell me what you meant by 411x3 vs 375 x4 ?


$411 is the current price for a pair of 16" tires and wheels times three for a tri-axle equals $1233.
$375 per tire and wheel times 4 equals $1500.


Jhenderson said:


> I guess it comes down to $$$ vs quality/ cost of ownership per mile. We’ve become a penny wise , pound foolish society. 30 years of pulling dump trailers with pickups has given me an education. Maintenance can eat your profit margins quickly .


Where is the balance point? I agree with you.
Here is another angle in August of 2020, I put new backing plates, bearings, drums, tires and wheels on my trailer. I got called away before the shoes were adjusted. A buddy called me the next day in a bind needed to move his skid steer. I told him to go ahead but be careful the brakes were not adjusted. He set the gain to max forgot to set it back, one brake was close to proper adjustment the other three were not. When he brought the trailer back the one that was close had flat spotted the tire to the belts in several places, an expensive lesson. A ruined tire in under 25 miles, and no he is not an idiot, it was a perfect storm of stupidity though that could have happened to a really expensive tire. The worn out tires I took off were goodyears that cost me $80 or $90 more per tire than the new ones. I was reluctant to put the cheap tires on but it was all I could get at the time with the covid nonsense.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 27, 2022)

Where are you buying 3500 lb tire and wheel combos for that $? As for your buddy? Education is expensive. I’ve got my Doctorate. Good talking with you.


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## les-or-more (Jan 27, 2022)

Jhenderson said:


> Where are you buying 3500 lb tire and wheel combos for that $? As for your buddy? Education is expensive. I’ve got my Doctorate. Good talking with you.


Ebay.
Again trying not to go down a rabbit hole, with prices from a buddy's cousin who runs a tire shop kind of thing.


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## les-or-more (Jan 27, 2022)

les-or-more said:


> Ebay.
> Again trying not to go down a rabbit hole, with prices from a buddy's cousin who runs a tire shop kind of thing.


I was under a grand for 4 new tire and wheel comb's along with new brakes, bearings and drums. Inflation has done away with that though.


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## Jhenderson (Jan 27, 2022)

Understood. Thanks.


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## softdown (Feb 3, 2022)

les-or-more said:


> The tire wear is worse with 3 axles, but the tires are cheaper. A 10k axle the tire and wheel combo is going to be upwards of $500 a piece if they will each carry 5k. The triple only requires 16" E rated tires which are cheap over all. I built trailers for a couple of years, we shipped several hundred a year. I am certain the cost to build a tri axle is quite a bit less than a tandem.
> I built my trailer in 2000 it is 24 feet long and routinely carries equipment that weighs it GVW, so overloaded. It only has an 8 inch channel frame, rust will put it out of service from road salt. I spent a crap load when I built it buying epoxy paint and primer. It desperately needs to be sandblasted and repainted but has held up exceptionally well under our winter road conditions. I built it with tie downs and front and rear ramps to haul snowmobiles as well.


The thing I like about three axles is six braking tires instead of four. For the past 20 years I have had to stand on my brakes on the interstate way, way too often. Why people decide to come to a quick dead stop on the interstate is quite interesting. I do not remember it ever happening in the distant past. Are they trying to collect insurance? By creating a massive interstate accident? More brakes are better.

I want an ~20' three axle pintle hitch trailer for several reasons. I have come to prefer pintle hitch over gooseneck. I find them far more intuitive to back up.

So far a short one has been very hard to find. May have to go much longer. Pros and cons to everything it seems.


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## Jhenderson (Feb 3, 2022)

The brake issue has been previously discussed. 3, 7K axles have less brake swept area than 2, 10K axles and provide less braking .


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## softdown (Feb 3, 2022)

les-or-more said:


> I have been responding to your assertions.
> 
> The tires are cheaper the axles are cheaper the hanger kits are cheaper and by a significant amount. Who is building the trailer is irrelevant, it is cheaper to build a tri axle 10 ton trailer than a tandem axle trailer. I have done my best to give you an apples to apples comparison, my own personal preference is for a tandem axle configuration, that however doesn't negate the facts. A trailer with 3 7k axles can legally carry more weight.
> Most trailers around here are in the scrapyard because of corrosion not for being broken. We could argue for eternity over every little detail. I have attempted to point out that like many things this is subjective, what you consider to be high quality may not be to someone else. Trailers are built to haul payload, the lighter the trailer the more payload you can carry. We all know the lighter the frame the shorter the lifespan, the key is finding the balance we find acceptable.


I keep reading and hearing that DOT adds up tire ratings. Makes sense because trailer manufacture GVWR vary from extremely conservative to hyper optimism. I've seen 18,000 GVWR trailers that were stouter than trailers touting 36,000 GVWR.

I have some older 17.5" tires and rims. They seem to weight twice as much as the common 235/80/16 tire and rim. Of course they carry a much higher weight rating. 

I've done a LOT of trailering. Tires are more likely to fail under duress than axles I think. Wheel studs as well. 

Now three axles sporting dual 17.5" tires/wheels? That would have some capacity and weight. Yet a defunct manufacturer curiously only claims a 19,000 GVWR. for that configuration.


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## les-or-more (Feb 3, 2022)

softdown said:


> I keep reading and hearing that DOT adds up tire ratings. Makes sense because trailer manufacture GVWR vary from extremely conservative to hyper optimism. I've seen 18,000 GVWR trailers that were stouter than trailers touting 36,000 GVWR.
> 
> I have some older 17.5" tires and rims. They seem to weight twice as much as the common 235/80/16 tire and rim. Of course they carry a much higher weight rating.
> 
> ...


Yes there are a lot of ratings, the company I worked for rated them for the axle capacity. A 3500lb brake with a 3500lb idler axle got a rating of 5k, 2 3500lb brake axles got 7k. 2- 7k axles were always rated at 14k we always used only brake axles above 10k trailers. I have seen goosenecks rated at 18k with 2 7k axles, not going to go good if the whirly lights come on behind you.  In my experience everyone overloads their trailer, so keeping the rating low is better.


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## Jhenderson (Feb 3, 2022)

_*There are some very good manufacturers and there are some that make you wonder how they got a federal manufacturer license. The only *sure way to know what you’re getting is go look and compare the trailers while referencing the specs. I’d much rather buy an underrated trailer than an overrated one. _


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## softdown (Feb 5, 2022)

So a friend is telling me that a 3 axle trailer for sale can have an axle moved and become a slider - to allow loading of equipment. Having a hard time visualizing that one being very easy to operate.

The 3 axle dually (12 tires/wheels) is also for sale by auction. That would be a BEAST of a trailer. But the price is likely to go nuts. And what would that sucker weigh anyway? 

Anybody know what to roughly expect in the weight difference between pintle hitch and goose neck? I figure the pintle should weigh maybe ~ 500 pounds less - in a 7500 pound class trailer.


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## Jhenderson (Feb 5, 2022)

I would try going to some of the better trailer manufacturers websites and check the spec sheets for tare wts.


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## sawfarmer (May 7, 2022)

If you can afford it buy the diamond C get the 10k axles.also order it with a telescopic hoist . As for tri axle they scrub tires when turning sharp and with the 16" tires i have had a tire roll off the bead and go flat when making very sharp turns when loaded, that has been my experiance a time or two. I prefer a gooseneck dump with single wheel 8k or 10k axles, 17.5/19.5 rubber depending on the axles.


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