# Tree ID in North Florida



## JAXJEREMY (May 2, 2022)

I live in northeast Florida and we have a creek that runs behind our house. along the edge of the creek we have some water oaks, hickory and a few other varieties. However, we have this one particular tree that seems to have spread over the years. We've been in the house for almost 17 years.

A few years back we had some tree work done after a hurricane came through. The tree guy said he thought they were box elder, but I'm not sure. I've cut down four of them so far just because they were choking out more desirable stuff..any thoughts on what these are?


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## TheJollyLogger (May 2, 2022)

I want to say hackberry.


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## JAXJEREMY (May 2, 2022)

It doesn't produce any fruit and the bark doesn't look like hackberry to me..


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## ray benson (May 2, 2022)

Maybe Beech.
@Del_


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## Del_ (May 2, 2022)

ray benson said:


> Maybe Beech.
> @Del_



Might be blue beech or ironwood. Sometimes called muscle wood.





__





Carpinus caroliniana (American Hornbeam, Blue Beech, Hornbeam, Ironwood, Musclewood, Muscle Wood, Water Beech) | North Carolina Extension Gardener Plant Toolbox






plants.ces.ncsu.edu






In my opinion some of the prettiest trees on the planet. With care and the correct pruning can easily be arboretum quality.


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## Bronco (May 3, 2022)

I'd start here, the UF Ag outreach people are great at this... tree/bush/plants Id, soil quality etc.. and send them your pics






Tree Identification - Gardening Solutions - University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences


Tips and advice on figuring out what kind of tree you're looking at, on your solution for Florida-Friendly gardening from the University of Florida's Center for Land Use Efficiency.




gardeningsolutions.ifas.ufl.edu


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## JAXJEREMY (May 3, 2022)

I think @ray benson may have nailed it..description sounds like a beech, especially the part about the fluted wood and the smooth bluish gray bark..

Good call @Bronco, I've tried the UF extension before and it's been hit or miss.


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## buzz sawyer (May 3, 2022)

Not Box Elder, Hackberry or Beech that I am familiar with. Maybe a member of the Beech family, I'm researching.


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## JAXJEREMY (May 3, 2022)

@buzz sawyer , I'll be curious to see what you come up with..Based on the description it looks a lot like a beech to me..or maybe it's a son of a "beech"..poor attempt at humor.


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## ATH (May 3, 2022)

Del_ said:


> Might be blue beech or ironwood. Sometimes called muscle wood.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed, it is Carpinus. Beech twigs would be a little more stout (not a lot, but a little). Really big (long) terminal buds on Beech - but wrong season for those.

While Beech can rarely have some formations in the wod like that, it is not common. Carpinus, however, always looks like that.

Native range of Carpinus goes slightly deeper into FL than Fagus...not that this is a determining factor, just another piece of info.

Also, given the site description, it sounds like a Carpinus site. It is a common understory tree. I have seen the common name of "water beech" as it likes those wetter areas. I learned it as musclewood. Ironwood is also a common name...but I avoid it because there are too many other entirely unrelated species called ironwood. "American hornbeam" seems to be the preferred common name in the ornamental world - at least around here.


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## JAXJEREMY (May 3, 2022)

Thanks for the information @ATH..It's interesting because we had at least 6 of them growing back there..I'm assuming the smaller ones were all volunteers..

Looks like a dead ringer for the blue beech..definitely provides a lot of shade, the big one especially. The canopy does how need to be cleaned up..


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## JAXJEREMY (May 3, 2022)

ok. so carpinus shows up as birch?? Is there a difference between birch and beech, or is beech in the birch family?? Confused..This pic looks exactly like my tree.


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## Cricket (May 3, 2022)

Del_ said:


> Might be blue beech or ironwood. Sometimes called muscle wood.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was going to go with hornbeam, or some relative thereof. There are a lot of them along a river I paddle fairly often, though I don't recall them being quite that blotchy looking, there are probably various varieties I know nothing about.


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## ATH (May 3, 2022)

Your tree is a Carpinus. That's in the birch family (Betulaceae - doesn't make it a birch though...just in the same family). Another name for that species is "Water beech" or "Blue beech". That is a common name, not indicative of biological relationship). That does NOT mean they are related to Beech (which are in the Fagaceae family). So, no it is not an actual Beech.


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## JAXJEREMY (May 4, 2022)

ATH said:


> Your tree is a Carpinus. That's in the birch family (Betulaceae - doesn't make it a birch though...just in the same family). Another name for that species is "Water beech" or "Blue beech". That is a common name, not indicative of biological relationship). That does NOT mean they are related to Beech (which are in the Fagaceae family). So, no it is not an actual Beech.


So the tree is technically in the birch family, but called a Beech..clear as mud..hah..
Guess I'll just refer to it as a a water beech..


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## RichMidd (May 4, 2022)

JAXJEREMY said:


> I live in northeast Florida and we have a creek that runs behind our house. along the edge of the creek we have some water oaks, hickory and a few other varieties. However, we have this one particular tree that seems to have spread over the years. We've been in the house for almost 17 years.
> 
> A few years back we had some tree work done after a hurricane came through. The tree guy said he thought they were box elder, but I'm not sure. I've cut down four of them so far just because they were choking out more desirable stuff..any thoughts on what these are?
> 
> ...


Definitely Carpinus. I’m jealous as I’ve turned It for years. It is hard as iron when dry and has a fine texture like boxwood. In my experience it is a slow grower.


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## JAXJEREMY (May 4, 2022)

RichMidd said:


> Definitely Carpinus. I’m jealous as I’ve turned It for years. It is hard as iron when dry and has a fine texture like boxwood. In my experience it is a slow grower.


If you were closer I'd let you have the stack of logs I put aside..


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## ATH (May 4, 2022)

JAXJEREMY said:


> So the tree is technically in the birch family, but called a Beech..clear as mud..hah..
> Guess I'll just refer to it as a a water beech..


I just avoid the confusion...call it muscle-wood or hornbeam.


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## JAXJEREMY (Oct 3, 2022)

Ok guys, I have another tree ID request for you..Hurricane Ian skirted just off shore last week. Unlike some other areas of the state, we were lucky. We did have some high winds and a bit of rain, Wednesday and through Thursday which caused this tree to come down. I'd never actually seen a tree just break and fall so this was a first for me..The sound of the trunk cracking as the wind twisted it was pretty scary..fortunately it didn't hit anything or anyone..

Here's the tree in question..

The top just missed my fence as it came down over the creek behind our house..








The bark is somewhat smooth and relatively easy to peel..the leaves are long and are grayish on the underside..







I was thinking maybe some sort of poplar but the leaves aren't the right shape..The wood is super easy to split, barely have to put any effort into it.

Any thoughts on what this might be??


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## ATH (Oct 4, 2022)

Magnolia


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## JAXJEREMY (Oct 4, 2022)

ATH said:


> Magnolia


Definitely not a magnolia. We have plenty of them around. The leaves aren't leathery and the wood grain is completely different.


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## JAXJEREMY (Oct 4, 2022)

Any other guesses??


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## TheJollyLogger (Oct 4, 2022)

Almost looks like a shingle oak


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## cookies (Oct 4, 2022)

kinda looks like bayleaf


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## JAXJEREMY (Oct 4, 2022)

Not sure we have shingle oak here in Florida and I didn't see any acorns on it..

If it was a bay leaf, it was the biggest I've ever seen..


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 4, 2022)

To me, just looking at bark is a fast growing, softer and lighter wood of low btu value, junkier end of oak or close to oak spectrum. More towards Water Oak, than Live Oak in that scale/range..
.
Live Oak is my highest oak benchmark of expressing most greatest values of many components. All trees around me are graded as lessers to this high benchmark then. Live Oak thicker , lower growing, double cambium, 'luggier' bark that is harder for mistletoe to invade. They do grow slow, but tenaciously with harder , longer burning, higher btu, heavier wood, that can have slight spiral making hard to split. 
.
Have seen many 'overly mature' Water (type)Oaks that grow fast, but then get almost elphantitus bloated look , wounds that don't seal before rot ensues, etc. Bur have never seen, a Live Oak that would describe as overly mature, they have exemplary sealing of wounds, less codoms etc. Live oak hinges better etc. too i think.
.
Late wood grows slower, and gives the darker seasonal rings of greater density. Harder to screw into etc. Can crack if nail or screw (that will Naturally go to the softer lighter right part)and get the head of nail/screw hitting the harder ring part. Live Oak early spring/summer wood is about as strong as the other tree's denser late wood, and then the late wood of Live Oaks even stronger! Live Oak leaves lots harder to crumple even, compared to Water Oak with kinda watery leaves. The twigs can be as like wire. These some tuff trees!
.
i don't have a real answer to the species question, but in my yard more to the working wood side; simply would not sort it that far before cutting unless other utility purpose. Highly favor the Live Oak and close to types of bark in most oaks to sort, unless quick space fill that probably will be removed at some point.


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## JAXJEREMY (Oct 4, 2022)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> To me, just looking at bark is a fast growing, softer and lighter wood of low btu value, junkier end of oak or close to oak spectrum. More towards Water Oak, than Live Oak in that scale/range..
> .
> Live Oak is my highest oak benchmark of expressing most greatest values of many components. All trees around me are graded as lessers to this high benchmark then. Live Oak thicker , lower growing, double cambium, 'luggier' bark that is harder for mistletoe to invade. They do grow slow, but tenaciously with harder , longer burning, higher btu, heavier wood, that can have slight spiral making hard to split.
> .
> ...



Thanks @TheTreeSpyder , good to see a fellow Floridian chime in..I've been in Florida nearly 33 years and this tree isn't something I've ever come across..It is as you described, junky..definitely not in the oak family, I can't see any similar characteristics..


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## Ethobling (Oct 4, 2022)

Crush and smell the leaves. Does it smell like bay? It's bay.

I'm inclined to agree with ATH. Looks like a Magnolia, like Sweet Bay Magnolia.


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## ATH (Oct 4, 2022)

The buds are pretty clear. It is magnolia.


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## JAXJEREMY (Oct 10, 2022)

I believe @ATH is correct..did some digging and didn't realize the sweeetbay magnolia is also known as the swamp magnolia..leaves perfectly fit the description @Ethobling mentioned, and they do have a pretty unique smell to them..Thanks guys!!


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## Ethobling (Oct 10, 2022)

JAXJEREMY said:


> I believe @ATH is correct..did some digging and didn't realize the sweeetbay magnolia is also known as the swamp magnolia..leaves perfectly fit the description @Ethobling mentioned, and they do have a pretty unique smell to them..Thanks guys!!


And now you have access to bay leaves without having to buy them (if you use them for soups, etc).

Glad you found your answer.

In the future, one app I have used and had great fun with is the PictureThis app. You snap a picture of whatever plant you are unsure of (even if you know what it is, it will bring up good info on it) and it will identify it. It's only gotten 1 plant wrong out of the 100+ pictures I've taken and it was a fair misidentification. (It thought Climbing Hempvine was Mile-A-Minute.)


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## JAXJEREMY (Oct 10, 2022)

Thanks for the tip @Ethobling..my wife is always using bay leave in soup..maybe I should gather up the leaves and dry some in the dehudrator..

I'll have to give that picture this app a try.


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## JAXJEREMY (Oct 10, 2022)

wow @Ethobling, you weren't kidding about that app!! Took a picture of the leaves and it ID'd it immediately..pretty incredible.. Curious, do you have a paid subscription for it?


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## Ethobling (Oct 10, 2022)

JAXJEREMY said:


> wow @Ethobling, you weren't kidding about that app!! Took a picture of the leaves and it ID'd it immediately..pretty incredible.. Curious, do you have a paid subscription for it?


I do not. Haven't seen the need.

There was a brief time where they were limiting the number of identifications you could do per day to 1-5 (depending on chance), but they seemed to have reverted that, thankfully.

It's a great app. I've taken pictures of a tree canopy where no individual leaves were easily seen and it still identified the tree correctly.


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## ATH (Oct 10, 2022)

Seek - by iNaturalist is another good identification app.


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## JAXJEREMY (Oct 12, 2022)

So I went around ID'ing all of the other trees on my property..lot's of water oak, a which I knew, but several which I had no clue what they were..Red maple, pignut hickory and even a huge black cherry. Then I found a patch of swamp magnolia which I wasn't aware of..


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## Ethobling (Oct 12, 2022)

JAXJEREMY said:


> So I went around ID'ing all of the other trees on my property..lot's of water oak, a which I knew, but several which I had no clue what they were..Red maple, pignut hickory and even a huge black cherry. Then I found a patch of swamp magnolia which I wasn't aware of..


Pics? Especially of the Black Cherry...

Yeah, I had a massive Pignut Hickory fall during Hurricane Florence. It was so big it took 4-5 smaller trees with it. It's still propped up off the ground because of the limbs. It still might have some salvagable lumber, but probably not.


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## JAXJEREMY (Oct 14, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> Pics? Especially of the Black Cherry...
> 
> Yeah, I had a massive Pignut Hickory fall during Hurricane Florence. It was so big it took 4-5 smaller trees with it. It's still propped up off the ground because of the limbs. It still might have some salvagable lumber, but probably not.


My property is on an old homestead site and I have two of those Hickories, one at each corner of the back of my property..I've always wondered if they planted them as a marker or something. Anyway, they're good size trees, never actually knew what all those nuts were from..now I do.

Here's the cherry tree..bark has a really unique texture..


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## Old-Feller (Oct 14, 2022)

Del_ said:


> Might be blue beech or ironwood. Sometimes called muscle wood.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow! That's crazy the Ironwood out West here is more of a Bush but can grow larger into a tree it is similar to a Juniper in a way, When I was younger we used to cut a lot of it and literally sparks would fly off of the chains and it dulls them very quickly. It weighs a lot and is super hard. You are no longer allowed to cut them anymore.


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## Ethobling (Oct 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> Wow! That's crazy the Ironwood out West here is more of a Bush but can grow larger into a tree it is similar to a Juniper in a way, When I was younger we used to cut a lot of it and literally sparks would fly off of the chains and it dulls them very quickly. It weighs a lot and is super hard. You are no longer allowed to cut them anymore.


Yeah, it's a dime a dozen, here, if you are near a creek. I heard it's in the top 3 or so of highest BTUs per cord in the US. Might even be at the top? That would make sense, seeing how hard it is.

It's beautiful in the late autumn. Pretty much the last tree to change color and it stays a lovely gold for a while, assuming there's very little wind.

Edit to add: found it. I've attached the chart. Looks like it's #3 (Hornbeam)


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## Old-Feller (Oct 15, 2022)

Actually the Western Ironwood is a different species altogether than Hornbeam, Here is part of the Janka Hardness scale and Ironwood is way Higher than Osage Orange And way Higher up than Hickory.


SpeciesForce: pounds-force (newtons) Australian Buloke[5]5,060 lbf (22,500 N)​Schinopsis brasiliensis, Quebracho, Barauna, Chamacoco[6]4,800 lbf (21,000 N)​Schinopsis balansae, Quebracho Colorado, Red Quebracho[7]4,570 lbf (20,300 N)​Lignum vitae, Guayacan, Pockholz4,500 lbf (20,000 N)​Piptadenia Macrocarpa, Curupay, Angico Preto, Brazilian Tiger Mahogany3,840 lbf (17,100 N)​Snakewood, Letterhout, Piratinera Guinensis3,800 lbf (17,000 N)​Brazilian Olivewood3,700 lbf (16,000 N)​Brazilian Ebony3,700 lbf (16,000 N)​Ipê, Brazilian Walnut, Handroanthus lapacho3,684 lbf (16,390 N)​African Pearwood, Moabi3,680 lbf (16,400 N)​Grey Ironbark3,664 lbf (16,300 N)​Bolivian Cherry3,650 lbf (16,200 N)​Lapacho3,640 lbf (16,200 N)​Sucupira, Brazilian Chestnut, Tiete Chestnut3,417 lbf (15,200 N)​Kingwood[8]3,340 lbf (14,900 N)​Dipteryx, Cumaru, Brazilian Teak[9]3,330 lbf (14,800 N)​Ironwood3,260 lbf (14,500 N)​Ebony3,220 lbf (14,300 N)​Massaranduba, Brazilian Redwood, Paraju3,190 lbf (14,200 N)​Yvyraro3,040 lbf (13,500 N)​Strand Woven Bamboo3,000 lbf (13,000 N)​Cocobolo2,960 lbf (13,200 N)​Bloodwood (Brosimum rubescens)2,900 lbf (13,000 N)​Boxwood2,840 lbf (12,600 N)​Red Mahogany, Turpentine2,697 lbf (12,000 N)​Live Oak2,680 lbf (11,900 N)​Southern Chestnut2,670 lbf (11,900 N)​Spotted Gum2,473 lbf (11,000 N)​Brazilian Cherry, Jatoba2,350 lbf (10,500 N)​Mesquite2,345 lbf (10,430 N)​Golden Teak2,330 lbf (10,400 N)​Guatambú, Kyrandy, Balfourodendron riedelianum2,240 lbf (10,000 N)​Santos Mahogany, Bocote, Cabreuva, Honduran Rosewood2,200 lbf (9,800 N)​Pradoo2,170 lbf (9,700 N)​Brazilian Koa2,160 lbf (9,600 N)​Brushbox2,135 lbf (9,500 N)​Osage Orange[10]2,040 lbf (9,100 N)​Karri2,030 lbf (9,000 N)​Sydney Blue Gum2,023 lbf (9,000 N)​Bubinga1,980 lbf (8,800 N)​Cameron1,940 lbf (8,600 N)​Tallowwood1,933 lbf (8,600 N)​Merbau1,925 lbf (8,560 N)​Amendoim1,912 lbf (8,500 N)​Jarrah1,910 lbf (8,500 N)​Purpleheart1,860 lbf (8,300 N)​Goncalo Alves, Tigerwood1,850 lbf (8,200 N)​Hickory, Pecan, Satinwood


1,820 lbf (8,100 N)​


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## Old-Feller (Oct 15, 2022)

Hornbeam is 11 or 12 more rows down from Hickory. Hornbeam is is something like 1620 on the hardness test, Ironwood is 3260.









Janka hardness test - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## ATH (Oct 15, 2022)

There are a bunch of species known as ironwood - most entirely unrelated.

Ipe in the tropics.
Ostrya - couple of different species in both east and west
Carpinus also in the east
Lyonothamnus - few different species in California


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## cthomp75 (Oct 16, 2022)

JAXJEREMY said:


> wow @Ethobling, you weren't kidding about that app!! Took a picture of the leaves and it ID'd it immediately..pretty incredible.. Curious, do you have a paid subscription for it?


I paid for it and its worth every dollar, even if you only use it for personal education


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## Ethobling (Oct 16, 2022)

cthomp75 said:


> I paid for it and its worth every dollar, even if you only use it for personal education


What benefits does premium give that make it worth it for you?

Also, I never noticed this, but there's another section of the all that allows you to identify birds and other stuff.


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## Seachaser (Oct 16, 2022)

cookies said:


> kinda looks like bayleaf


My guess.


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## JAXJEREMY (Oct 18, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> What benefits does premium give that make it worth it for you?
> 
> Also, I never noticed this, but there's another section of the all that allows you to identify birds and other stuff.
> View attachment 1024573


Didn't notice the tree ring identify. that's pretty cool..I've got a really old oak that's almost petrified..would be curious to know how old it is..


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## cthomp75 (Oct 29, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> What benefits does premium give that make it worth it for you?
> 
> Also, I never noticed this, but there's another section of the all that allows you to identify birds and other stuff.
> View attachment 1024573


so far - unlimited identification. sounds like there is more that I'm not utilizing but that has been enough for me. it stores my picture id's which is helpful for estimates and such.


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## Ethobling (Oct 29, 2022)

cthomp75 said:


> so far - unlimited identification. sounds like there is more that I'm not utilizing but that has been enough for me. it stores my picture id's which is helpful for estimates and such.


I am able to identify an unlimited amount, even with the free version and it stores what I take pictures of.

There was a brief time where I did not have but 1 ID a day, but then I updated the app and it hasn't happened since. Maybe I got lucky?


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## Karl_Childers (Nov 28, 2022)

JAXJEREMY said:


> I live in northeast Florida and we have a creek that runs behind our house. along the edge of the creek we have some water oaks, hickory and a few other varieties. However, we have this one particular tree that seems to have spread over the years. We've been in the house for almost 17 years.
> 
> A few years back we had some tree work done after a hurricane came through. The tree guy said he thought they were box elder, but I'm not sure. I've cut down four of them so far just because they were choking out more desirable stuff..any thoughts on what these are?
> 
> ...


Ironwood Tree(Carpinus caroliniana)


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