# please confirm white mulberry is trash tree



## Farmer Ferd (Apr 18, 2007)

I recently cut down a white mulberry tree for a customer. The base was on his neighbors property from 3 foot up it was on his property. The tree was about 25' tall scraggly and mixing in with a hedge of nice ceders. My customer now has to go to court over this. can anyone give me some advice for my customer? Is there any source which will confirm that mulberry's are " trash trees"?


----------



## Farmer Ferd (Apr 18, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> I like them. You should have known better than to cut a tree that did not belong to your customer.



In NJ if a tree hangs over your property is does belong to you.


----------



## PUclimber (Apr 18, 2007)

Settle and pay an amount for the tree. Yes the tree is not as desirable as others but that's a fairly large diameter tree and probably provided shade to the neighbor as well as other values. If the owner of the tree is smart they do a value analysis done by a certified arborist and take into consideration what value the tree gave to the landscape, shade over a house that might've reduced a/c bills. There's a lot of things taken into consdieration. It's one of those things that both of you should've known better but what's done is done and now they should take the value established for that tree and subtract the smaller caliper tree price that will replace it.


----------



## Ed Roland (Apr 18, 2007)

The mulberry had value to the owner. That value is going to SURPRISE you.
Good luck and 
know we have all purchased expensive lessons before.


----------



## winchman (Apr 18, 2007)

*beauty is in the eye of the beholder*

i will second the "expensive lesson" theory, and add my 2 cents. 
i have called trees "trash trees" before, but i have many favorite trees that others dislike. redbud and catalpa are two examples that come to mind. good luck finding a source on that, since the mulberry provided the aforementioned shade, was a large tree, and provides habitat as well as food for nature. i bet if the neighbor is a birdlover you just took away a valuable resourse of theirs. not trying to put salt in the wound, just had to comment on this one, since "trash tree" is a subjective, not objective, term.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 18, 2007)

In many areas lotlines will prevail, but if you cross it is malicous tresspass. You admit you crossed the property line, maybe the client did not inform you so, but it might have been obviouse.

Could a reasonable person discern that the property line was near? If not, then you may be able to show you did not intend to destroy property.

Did you have any pictures prior to cutting that shows that it was predominantly on clients side? This could reduce the amount they can go for, being that is was a "boundry tree" which are sometimes concidered owned jointly.

Maybe good hig res picture of the hedge wich growth was being influanced by the assumed vollunteer mulberry

You may do yourself and your client a good turn by offering to plant a good species to replace. Maybe a fastigiate amilanchier?

Trash trees have little bearing. For some people green is good. Go for invasive and it may hold some water.



This USDA page sites good authoirity that it is invasive
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=MOAL


This one shows it as being on the noxious invasive list for KY and VA
http://www.invasive.org/eastern/species/6050.html

Here it is on the invasives list for Montgomery, NJ 2003
http://www.montgomery.nj.us/invasiveplants.pdf

http://www.npsnj.org/references/invasive_plant_list.pdf
This is from Appendix to Policy Directive 2004-02
Invasive Nonindigenous Plant Species
October, 2004

The list includes Morus alba




> This list is intended to provide guidance for planting, landscaping and restorations on Department lands, and does not constitute an official list of invasive nonindigenous plant species for New Jersey. No legislation currently exists mandating the creation of such an official list. In addition to enabling legislation, the creation of an official list of invasive nonindigenous plant species will require additional research, a thorough review by the scientific community and governmental agencies, and an opportunity for public comment.



You had no right to cross boundries.
The law tries to "make whole" the injured party.
Your best bet is to make the.

You can take these things to show that you had no intent to damamge the nieghbor, along with the offer to replace with a better speiceis of reasonable price. 

Taking in the location and the tendancy for these trees to be seeded by bird excrement, one could argue that a smaller tree with better aesthetics is more valuable. My fastigiate recomendation


Here is a nursery in TN with prices
http://www.shadyvalleynursery.com/a.htm 
I was going to paste in the table, but it did not move well.

Amelanchier
*canadensis, Shadblow Serviceberry
Noted for its showy apricot-orange to deep rusty red fall color. Early flowering with subsequent edible fruit.
6 ft. multi-stem 49.00​


----------



## Justice (Apr 18, 2007)

From my experience in New Jersey anything hanging over your property line you are allowed to trim. It is not however "your " property. In addition if you do trim the part overhanging your property and it causes the death of the tree you are responsible for it. That includes "replacement cost value". One case here was a 14 3/4 inch tree at DBH was valved at $27 a sq/in or $1250. The $27 value is a borough ordinance but the national standard is around $45 a sq/in I think. 

OH, nice choice on the Amelanchier canadensis, and a great solution to the problem. A great way to come out looking good to both the homeowner and the person next door.


----------



## Farmer Ferd (Apr 18, 2007)

I did not place one foot on the neighbors property. I cut it from my customer yard who told me it was OK. I left standing the part which was still on the neighbors property. The tree did not shade anything as it was growing into a cedar as i originally posted.


----------



## Farmer Ferd (Apr 18, 2007)

one more note, I cannot think of anything that would grow there. It was growing from under a tall hedge. almost all the upper canopy was on my clients property.


----------



## Justice (Apr 18, 2007)

Well if you are looking for a legal analysis you could contact the NJ Society of Certified Tree Experts. They are an authority in NJ, and are recgonized in court as experts. 
I don't think actually steping on the property or if there was shade or not really matters. A lawyer could tell you but I still like the "plant a new tree" idea.


----------



## John464 (Apr 18, 2007)

Farmer Ferd said:


> In NJ if a tree hangs over your property is does belong to you.



who told you that one? it makes sense knowing and learning such laws before going into business for yourself


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 18, 2007)

This is the old common law idea of encrochment and the propertyline goes to the sky.

There is case law presidence now, in a number of juricdictions that see that trimming as cause of death, holding the trimmer responcible.

So the simple way of looking at it is that a property owner has the right to control encroachment as long as that control does not do harm to the other party.

If the practitioner employs best practice in the control of encroachment, he will usually be in the right. Sometimes that may be heading and reduction cuts on the clients side of the lotline.

So Pherd did not tresspass, but in controling the encroachment he made a coppice cut. On Morris sp. this weill usually sprout up if it has enough light, so he might not have actually killed the tree.

Once again, if it goes to court, pictures help a lot.

You may need to hire a surveyor to sho that the boundry was not crossed.

One thing to remember is that if the hedge crosses the boundry, and the neighbor does not get some satisfaction, it may give him leave to butcher his side of the hedge.

I would still offer to plant a small B&B tree to replace if someone else paid for it. Heck that sight I listed has 4 ft multi stemed A. leavis for $25. If both parties balked I'd offer to get one of those and put it farther out from the lotline.

You may win in court from a moral point of view, but how much time will you loose by having to show up?

Put you ducks in line,
demonstrable invasive species
probable volunteer
sweep in stub/stem shows encroachment
If it starts to bud, you can show that it was not killed.

You win by showing good will, and they both will tell people about it.


----------



## treeseer (Apr 18, 2007)

Mulberries are 30-60% species rating in the midatlantic. A fine species imo; durable and wildlife asset.

good lesson for all; if you do anything to a shared tree talk to both parties first.


----------



## clearance (Apr 18, 2007)

Farmer Ferd said:


> I did not place one foot on the neighbors property. I cut it from my customer yard who told me it was OK. I left standing the part which was still on the neighbors property. The tree did not shade anything as it was growing into a cedar as i originally posted.



I am so with you F.F., cut down some p.o.s. scummy tree and the whinin and crying starts, they always want money, tell 'em to go pound sand.


----------



## treeseer (Apr 18, 2007)

I seldom see moss or lichens on mulberries, and have never seen scum on one.
I'm kinda partial to em cuz Morus Spillane is my favorite writer.:jester: 

Have you talked to the neighbor, looked around that yard and thought of a way to make things right? Settle now! The last place you want to be is court.:jawdrop:


----------



## rebelman (Apr 20, 2007)

Yes mulberry should have a high rating. Shade ratio, strength. Mulberry is one of the best urban trees. Deal with it. You'll understand. Let mulberry grow.


----------



## wdchuck (Apr 20, 2007)

Mulberry......wine, berries, jam, sauce,.......yep, food source, more value.


----------



## Dadatwins (Apr 20, 2007)

Planting another tree and even stopping by once a week to water it for a year will be cheaper than the legal fees. Make nice with the tree owner and learn a valuable lesson. Good luck.


----------



## Ekka (Apr 20, 2007)

Farmer Ferd said:


> The base was on his neighbors property from 3 foot up it was on his property. The tree was about 25' tall scraggly and mixing in with a hedge of nice ceders.





Farmer Ferd said:


> In NJ if a tree hangs over your property is does belong to you.





Farmer Ferd said:


> I left standing the part which was still on the neighbors property. The tree did not shade anything as it was growing into a cedar as i originally posted.





Farmer Ferd said:


> one more note, I cannot think of anything that would grow there. It was growing from under a tall hedge. almost all the upper canopy was on my clients property.



Part of being a responsible tree owner is ensuring no trespass and if there is trespass ensuring no nuisance is caused by such trespassing tree. Clearly it was interfering with not only other trees but a group of trees planted with a purpose of screening and uniformity to the landscape. 

Substantiate the nuisance factor, what it was causing and doing and that you were exercising your right to go back to the fence-line.

Follow common law here and dig, you'll find in NJ they even have law that says you are entitled to trespass to abate a nuisance. Forget the tree hugger angle, as long as that tree was not a protected one you done what you were allowed and don't feel bad for it.

quoted from http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a118.htm



> As to private nuisances, it has been held, that if a man in his own soil erect a thing which is a nuisance to another, as by stopping a rivulet, and so diminishing the water used by the latter for his cattle, the party injured may enter on the soil of the other, and abate the nuisance and justify the trespass; and this right of abatement is not confined merely to a house, mill, or land.
> 
> The abator of a private nuisance cannot remove the materials further than is necessary, nor convert them to his own use. And so much only of the thing as causes the nuisance should be removed; as if a house be built too high, so much. only as is too high should be pulled down.
> 
> If the nuisance can be removed without destruction and delivered to a magistrate, it is advisable to do so; as in the case of a libellous print or paper affecting an individual, but still it may be destroyed.


----------



## kevinj (Apr 20, 2007)

wdchuck said:


> Mulberry......wine, berries, jam, sauce,.......yep, food source, more value.



Yeah I agree,
This is the type of tree that has some benifits to provide
a food source for wildlife and humans. But so are many other trees.
Walnut, butternut, wild cherry. But, Mulberry grows rather scraggly.
The berries are favored by birds, but, their droppings on the car, driveway, and house, are a negative. Roots spread vigorously and are noted for clogging drains. It is not recommended as an ornamental tree.
Therefore I think your neighbor is just looking for a couple extra bucks.
I say, settle it out of court.
buy him a nice replacement tree for $50.00. And a case of beer,
and call it even.  

 


Tell him


----------



## treevet (Apr 21, 2007)

You may have difficulty relating to the judge where the aerial part of the tree was as just the stump is left. White mulberries can be very pretty trees if they don t have twig blight (w witch es broom distortions), and they aren t over a drive, walk or roof. This nbor may not want to settle and make some money and not feel they will hurt their relationship w nbor bcs they are suing you. Good books to arm yourself "Arboriculture and the Law", Merullo (a real good seminar, too) and "Tree Law Cases in the USA" , Bloch. Avail from ISA. Lucky you aren t in Ohio as settlements are triple the est. value loss.


----------



## Ekka (May 1, 2007)

So, how about an update?


----------



## Sunrise Guy (May 1, 2007)

If I am asked to remove a tree that is even close to another property line, as in within five feet or less, I will always get the neighboring property owner to sign off on the job, as a precaution against what is happening to you. I have never had any problems.

It is not a good idea to call any tree a "garbage tree" because all trees provide oxygen, shade, wildlife refuge, etc., to the local ecosystem they are in. Here in Austin, folks are quick to call Celtis occidentalis garbage, yet I have several hacks on my property that I have pruned for years and they are very nice looking and provide nesting locations for local birds. Their wood is not that shabby either and makes reasonably good firewood.

Remember, property lines that neighbors think are there may actually be shifted a few feet this way or that on survey sheets, so doing the neighbor sign-off will let you breathe easier when you see that same neighbor watching you bring to ground that tree you've been working on for the past hour.

Good luck in court!

-Miles


----------



## Farmer Ferd (May 1, 2007)

Ekka said:


> So, how about an update?




I am not in any litigation. I was never named in any suit. I don't even think they know who I am. I was just gathering info for my customer who I found out is being taken to court for what I believe is criminal vandalism. following some of your advice I went to the neighbors house to tell him I would plant them another tree any where they wanted, he wasn't home. Then my customer his lawyer and my wife asked me not to contact the neighbor. Looking back at the site my original size was exaggerated. The tree was about 15 foot tall about 4 inches in diameter at breast height. I think the whole thing is kind of ridiculous. I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## Justice (May 1, 2007)

I agree with you on that one Farmer Fred. Seems to be the way it is these days. It is what it is though. 
I think the bother it has caused so far is proof enough that these precautions need to be taken, mostly for our peace of mind. 

Let us know how it goes. Good Luck!


----------



## treeseer (May 1, 2007)

Farmer Ferd said:


> e I went to the neighbors house to tell him I would plant them another tree any where they wanted, he wasn't home.


So no card in the door, no telephone call, no return visit? No offense, but that does not sound like a good faith effort. :monkey: 

If your client's lawyer is telling you to stay away that means s/he wants a resolution that will earn more for their firm. The client's interests too often take a back seat to this almighty principle.


----------



## Farmer Ferd (May 1, 2007)

treeseer said:


> So no card in the door, no telephone call, no return visit? No offense, but that does not sound like a good faith effort. :monkey:
> 
> If your client's lawyer is telling you to stay away that means s/he wants a resolution that will earn more for their firm. The client's interests too often take a back seat to this almighty principle.



No card & no call because as I said I do not think he even knows who I am. I am not being sued, or taken to court nor do I want to be.

Both my client and his lawyer say that the neighbor is unreasonable and might even get upset at me (the guy who cut the tree down) I agree that the lawyer may want money but my customer would only like resolution. My wife says to stay away from the whole thing with a ten foot pole.


----------



## treeseer (May 1, 2007)

Farmer Ferd said:


> My wife says to stay away from the whole thing with a ten foot pole.


Smart lady. At this point 100' would be better.opcorn:


----------



## Dadatwins (May 2, 2007)

At the least you need to document the fact that YOU went over and tried to fix the situation with replanting another tree. Have a statement with the date, time of visit ready if you ever need it. Lawyers are in the business of making money just like everyone else, so by settling the situation in the backyard, the lawyer makes nothing. Sounds like some bad neighbors that have more issues than just a tree and hopefully you will not get sucked up into the nonsense. Best of luck.


----------

