# Fixing Lion Tailed Trees



## soiset (Aug 27, 2012)

Once again, another homeowner in my neighborhood (where I do all my work) has had his Live Oaks brutally lion-tailed. I stopped by, and spoke with the homeowner about it (and the cabling one of the trees very badly needs). We had a very genial talk, and he was receptive, and concerned. Of course, his reasoning was that all the trees he saw were pruned this way, which they largely are, because most tree work in Dallas is done by jackleg illiterates like the guys who did this, "Salgado's Lawn Service". He was concerned though, that they'd removed too much, which they certainly had - about 50% of the crown.

The branches have a huge length-to-diameter ratio, because the tree has consistently been lion-tailed for the last decade or more. It is around 55 years old.

The only way I know to correct this takes a decade or more: when the tree bursts out with epicormic sprouts, allow them to grow for a bit, then go in and carefully select the best ones for future interior growth, and remove the rest. After long enough, they will have become large enough to subordinate the leader to. Slowly reduce the crown of the tree, and maybe after 15 years, it will be in good shape, assuming it hasn't fallen completely apart by that time.

This tree, like most others here, was not trained properly, and has very poorly connected codominant stems. The owner, of course, loves having big trees in his yard, but also loves having a thick lawn (typical sentiments here that lead to the lion-tailing).

So, how effective do you think the long-term solution I've laid out above is, and what do you think about the wisdom of it? These Live Oaks can live for hundreds of years, but the way they are abused, they won't make it to 100, maybe not 80. Is it better to just remove the tree now, and start over?View attachment 250316


----------



## treeseer (Aug 27, 2012)

"The only way I know to correct this takes a decade or more: when the tree bursts out with epicormic sprouts, allow them to grow for a bit, then go in and carefully select the best ones for future interior growth, and remove the rest. After long enough, they will have become large enough to subordinate the leader to. Slowly reduce the crown of the tree, and maybe after 15 years, it will be in good shape, assuming it hasn't fallen completely apart by that time."

Sounds like a plan. That kind of pruning sure does make cabling a good idea. 

The only thing dumber than this liontailing (they left the brush on the roof?) would be removal, unless the owner has a 50-year plan.


----------



## OHWC (Aug 28, 2012)

"Of course, his reasoning was that all the trees he saw were pruned this way, which they largely are, because most tree work in Dallas is done by jackleg illiterates like the guys who did this, "Salgado's Lawn Service". "

Just some advice from a fellow business owner. Bad mouthing other companies is really not the best practice. Customers will find out on their own who to hire and not hire. But this practice only makes you look bad.


----------



## david miller (Aug 28, 2012)

we have the same here in south fl on live oaks and black olives guys strip the whole inside out. people start to think thats the way it done


----------



## coolbrze (Aug 28, 2012)

OHWC said:


> "Of course, his reasoning was that all the trees he saw were pruned this way, which they largely are, because most tree work in Dallas is done by jackleg illiterates like the guys who did this, "Salgado's Lawn Service". "
> 
> Just some advice from a fellow business owner. Bad mouthing other companies is really not the best practice. Customers will find out on their own who to hire and not hire. But this practice only makes you look bad.



Maybe so, but I'll be d*mned if I'm not going to educate my client on improper pruning techniques (topping, spiking when pruning, removing more canopy than recommended, etc.) that some hack job has done or recommended. There's a lot of info they can learn on the internet & ISAs pamplets & website via Google


----------



## OHWC (Aug 28, 2012)

No problem with educating your clients. I personally do not know the company he mentions I am not in Dallas. I am just trying to give this person some friendly advice. Bad mouthing another company even if it is not hear say which it is in this case is a very slippery slope. You can be opening yourself up for all kinds of problems of which non of them are positive for you or your company.

If they are doing bad work it will catch up with them on its own.


----------



## mattfr12 (Aug 29, 2012)

OHWC said:


> No problem with educating your clients. I personally do not know the company he mentions I am not in Dallas. I am just trying to give this person some friendly advice. Bad mouthing another company even if it is not hear say which it is in this case is a very slippery slope. You can be opening yourself up for all kinds of problems of which non of them are positive for you or your company.
> 
> If they are doing bad work it will catch up with them on its own.



It's a law suite waiting to happen.


----------



## treeseer (Aug 29, 2012)

A Lawn Service pruning trees? :msp_unsure:


----------



## mattfr12 (Aug 29, 2012)

treeseer said:


> A Lawn Service pruning trees? :msp_unsure:



Another company calling a guy out on the Internet saying he's a hack with illegals working for him. If its not true lets say he does follow proper pruning practices and his guys all have there cards. Now what is it? That kind of stuff pisses guys off and attorneys are lining up to take slander cases. Internet ones are hard to handle but it can be done.

You have to separate opinion from plain lies. Lies are a no no it can hurt your wallet.


----------



## ropensaddle (Aug 29, 2012)

Well really mild very mild reduction would promote inner growth. My thoughts are the tree though lions tailed somewhat will live as long as rainfall or irrigation is provided during droughts! The big problem besides loss of food makers is wind and accelerated growth upward and outward. Me I would give it a year maybe two then do light reduction crown clean to promote inner growth! Monitor its progress and irrigate during extended dry periods and depending on site findings likely mulch!


----------



## ropensaddle (Aug 29, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> Another company calling a guy out on the Internet saying he's a hack with illegals working for him. If its not true lets say he does follow proper pruning practices and his guys all have there cards. Now what is it? That kind of stuff pisses guys off and attorneys are lining up to take slander cases. Internet ones are hard to handle but it can be done.
> 
> You have to separate opinion from plain lies. Lies are a no no it can hurt your wallet.



Yes agreed also say tree had been tailed in past and new service was only deadwooding or removing limbs over roof.


----------



## treeseer (Aug 29, 2012)

ropensaddle said:


> Well really mild very mild reduction would promote inner growth.



 Right you are; apical dominance shift will open buds inside so more auxin (growth suppression hormone) is made in more places, and growth will be more spread out.

How do you make a hormone? Don't pay her.  Moving on, maybe best to do light reduction now to trigger sprouting, and more after sprouting slows down...

Gutting should be done to fish, not trees. :msp_rolleyes:


----------



## sgreanbeans (Aug 30, 2012)

treeseer said:


> A Lawn Service pruning trees? :msp_unsure:



Its getting out of hand here. With the drought, the lawnscrapers are trying to make money any way they can. Have seen them on several different occasions trimming your typical suffering parking lot tree with hedge trimmers. The can sure make them look like a lolly pop.


----------



## soiset (Sep 3, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> Another company calling a guy out on the Internet saying he's a hack with illegals working for him. If its not true lets say he does follow proper pruning practices and his guys all have there cards. Now what is it? That kind of stuff pisses guys off and attorneys are lining up to take slander cases. Internet ones are hard to handle but it can be done.
> 
> You have to separate opinion from plain lies. Lies are a no no it can hurt your wallet.



Perhaps you and the others are right that I should not bad-mouth another company (by name - my point was that this was a "lawn service, nothing else), but I did not say that he hired "illegals."


----------



## soiset (Sep 3, 2012)

ropensaddle said:


> Yes agreed also say tree had been tailed in past and new service was only deadwooding or removing limbs over roof.



The brush on the ground was about 50% of the crown. They just finished off absolutely everything left to be cut off before the very tops. The brush was at the curb for city pickup. This was NOT deadwooding or ANY kind of proper practice.


----------



## soiset (Sep 3, 2012)

treeseer said:


> Right you are; apical dominance shift will open buds inside so more auxin (growth suppression hormone) is made in more places, and growth will be more spread out.
> 
> How do you make a hormone? Don't pay her.  Moving on, maybe best to do light reduction now to trigger sprouting, and more after sprouting slows down...
> 
> Gutting should be done to fish, not trees. :msp_rolleyes:



My experience here is that it will need no help at all to trigger sprouting. In two years, it will have hundreds of two-foot long sprouts. Also, and I'm a fair climber, there is very little in the top that can be reached now, to be properly pruned, or that removing would not leave the limb almost entirely leafless. That's why my only idea is to let selected sprouts grow until adequate diameter, and prune back to them.


----------



## soiset (Sep 3, 2012)

OHWC said:


> "Of course, his reasoning was that all the trees he saw were pruned this way, which they largely are, because most tree work in Dallas is done by jackleg illiterates like the guys who did this, "Salgado's Lawn Service". "
> 
> Just some advice from a fellow business owner. Bad mouthing other companies is really not the best practice. Customers will find out on their own who to hire and not hire. But this practice only makes you look bad.



Thanks for the advice, and it is well-taken. My point, as mentioned previously, was that this was a lawn service, NOT a tree service, but basically anyone with a pickup and a chainsaw, and often a pole saw to really effectively liontail, jumps into the tree business.

But your claim that customers will find out on their own is truly wishful thinking. I've been battling poor practices in JUST my neighborhood of 500 homes, and I am probably the second best known person within the neighborhood (besides the gal who does the newsletter) and I have hardly seen abatement of the bad practices. My experience has been that even when people are informed of proper practice, the learning soon evaporates, and they take their cues from what is commonly done, which also serves their interest of getting more sun on their lawns.


----------



## ropensaddle (Sep 3, 2012)

soiset said:


> My experience here is that it will need no help at all to trigger sprouting. In two years, it will have hundreds of two-foot long sprouts. Also, and I'm a fair climber, there is very little in the top that can be reached now, to be properly pruned, or that removing would not leave the limb almost entirely leafless. That's why my only idea is to let selected sprouts grow until adequate diameter, and prune back to them.



Well the suggestion was made by me and there is more to it than accelerating sprouting, which yes; it will sprout on its own. My thoughts are lions tailed seem to shift auxin toward limbs producing more length usually without proportional taper ! Light, very light reduction will slow that growth and allow the gut to fill up! Its hard working the tips, time consuming but can help imo.



I'm talking finger sized pruning at tips basically the apical buds on each leader!


----------

