# Appalachian Yarding Operations



## KYLogger (Dec 21, 2013)

I know there has been some discussion on this topic on here before, however as my business continues to grow and the good timber is in increasingly difficult terrain please humor me! I have done alot of research on this topic (online mostly) And I know there was a big push in the late 70's and early 80's for yarder logging in this area by the govt. They even went as far to engineer and make plans available for the "Appalachian Thinner" a dozer mounted shop built yarder that "could be built in any well equipped loggers shop". Skidder mounted such as the Ecologger and trailer yarders were also being researched. There was a good deal of university studies done on the matter as well. I know there were a few outfits that used them around here, however they never really caught hold. I feel it was due to inexperience, unwillingness to change, initial overhead, learning curve etc... I truly feel there is a niche for the market especially on government land and land that is too rough for practical ground skidding, especially with the cost and environmental concerns of road building. The logging business is incredibly fierce around here (as I am sure it is everywhere) and I would need every advantage I can get!

Anyway, if anybody has any experience with this specific topic, or knowledge of it please enlighten me! On the same note any experience with the smaller yarders, or yoaders (another option I was considering) or gypo yarder ideas pour it on me! 

Thanks,
Tom


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## northmanlogging (Dec 21, 2013)

All you really need for a yarder is two winches, one to lift the main line the other to pull the turn in. everything else can be done manually, guy lines, climbing a spar tree etc.

But having more drums makes things way more fun. Like uphill yarding (the logs coming down from above...) or an honest haulback that drags the carriage back to the brush apes.

A yoder is great because it fills the gap for log loading and yarding in one piece of equipment, but they are pretty spendy. I'm not positive but I'm pretty damn sure a guy could rig up a couple of smaller pullmasters or timberpro winches on a smaller machine like a 120 rather then the usual 300 sized machines, and have a pretty decent yoder for smaller sized timber. You still have to buy and excavator and all the parts to make it a yoder though...

The skidder mount yarders where pretty cool, but didn't really catch on anywhere, yeah they got 4 wheel drive but you still have to build a road to get the wood out so might as well get a real yarder right.

I've said it before... but there are outfits that make small yarders, Kohler, and some German company I can't pronounce... Both have a small yarder that can be towed behind a 3/4 ton truck, to bigger yarders that need bigger trucks to move. Also the venerable Christi yarder, usually mounted on a Mack truck (about the same size as a cement truck).

The Koller is nice cause it has a fancy remote control, and only 2-3 people are needed to make it a productive machine, one on top of the hill, one in the bushes, and maybe a hooktender/shovel op, although there is no reason the chaser(guy on top of the hill) can't run the shovel as well as chase.

The down side to a yarder is it takes time to set up and lots of peeps to make it run smooth, hence high cost, the big yarders out here have large crews: Shovel op, processor op, hook tender, side rod, chaser, yarder engineer, rigging slinger, and choker setter sometimes two. Not to mention 2 or more cutters trying to stay in front of the yarder.

The other thing is maintaining your lines (usually the hook tenders job) lives depend on everything being in good shape, so you have to keep an eye on several thousand feet of wire rope, at roughly $2. a foot or more...

All this being said... my gypo yarder is just a couple of duece and a half winches mounted to a frame with a transfer case off an old tow truck to divert power, forward, reverse, neutral, and some other gear that is either forward or reverse but the same speed as one or the other... (confusing huh). A better motor, one with a real clutch and more then 10 hp would make it almost productive for small acreage. Ideally 20-30 hp with a high and low gear... but I digress. If you find the larger half track winches your doing even better, they only hold about 200 feet of 1/2 line but they certainly do the job.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 21, 2013)

Great reply NM


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## northmanlogging (Dec 21, 2013)

If your going to go the yarder route, make damn sure you have good solid tail holds, both on your mainline and your guy lines, any one of them comes loose... well we'll probably read about it in the papers


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## KYLogger (Dec 21, 2013)

I appreciate the info! We are mostly thinning, high grade (and some not so high grade  )hardwood. 10,000 bdft is an excellent day for us. I definitely anticipate a learning curve. And I am not sure that I am going to go this route. I just like the fact especially with a swing type yarder I could be very versatile, jammer logging etc... (would suck to pull cable for that though) Got any pics of your yarder?


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## northmanlogging (Dec 21, 2013)

lets see... Thats all for now, I think there is some more in my profile though, the war dept. posted most of my pic to the interweb. its really quite small, but does the job.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 21, 2013)

You can modify jammer logging with a sort of hiline, jammer being usually a boom truck and single drum winch, you can run a static line off the end of the boom, add some weight and a block to the live line and presto you got a shotgun carriage. You only have to drag the line out once if everything works well... which it probably won't... If you go this rout run two blocks on the static line with your weight (usually a nice fat short log) and chokers hanging from these, one block on either end, using one block tends to cause it to get bound up and not want to run freely down the static line.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 21, 2013)

took some digging but here's some more, and proof that my fat ass can still climb trees...


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## northmanlogging (Dec 21, 2013)

never mind there not working...


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## slowp (Dec 21, 2013)

How sturdy are the hardwoods? Out here Douglas-fir is the favorite tree to rig in. What is the shape of the land? For yarder logging, steep is good--steep means good lift and good lift means more payload. 

The Koller is a good little yarder. 



These guys had one on the landing, one down in the brush and one driving log truck. The two sons would also fall timber, get ahead, then start yarding. The truck driving son would run loader. The one in the brush would also run the processor on the landing. The dad ran the yarder and unhooked the logs. 

They moved over here, bought a timber sale and bought a yarder. They'd been skidder loggers before. They already had a processor and a forwarder. They used the forwarder as a tailhold. They caught on quickly and made a go of it. 

This Koller was pulled by their log truck. It also has an extension on the tube. They are running a motorized carriage which is common around here.


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## slowp (Dec 21, 2013)

When a federal judge has determined that a skyline system must be used, and you can't build more roads, you put up an intermediate support (jack) on a convex slope.


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## slowp (Dec 21, 2013)




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## slowp (Dec 21, 2013)




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## slowp (Dec 21, 2013)




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## 1270d (Dec 21, 2013)

I'm guessing the OP lives in country with bigger hill than where I live in Michigan. That being said, western style of cable logging never caught on here either. One of the main reasons was the amount of wood per setting. It is pretty difficult to get enough volume go justify a harder here. Our trees are too short, and diameter is too small. Our foresters also hate straight lines cut through Tue woods, thereby eliminating cable corridors for thinning operations. 

The job I'm cutting now would be a good candidate for a small yarder. Its on a decent slope, soft ground, good timber volume (40 to 50+ cards/acre), clearcut with lots of steep thirty or forty foot deep drains running down the hill. There is only one small tower in the region that I know of.


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## Humptulips (Dec 21, 2013)

The real killer for tower logging is Industrial insurance at about $20/hour/man. That and inexperience. You need men who know what they are doing but you have to keep them working. With so much downtime being typical anyone with something on the ball soon figures out there is a better ocupation out there.

My question for you is can you find enough work to keep some guys busy full time? If you can buy a small yarder. Leave the jerry built stuff in the junkyard where it belongs. Find someone that knows what they are doing and learn from them. No amount of internet reading will teach you 1% of what working with an expereinced man will.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 21, 2013)

lots of thinning is done with yarders out here, its steep gentle men, not just sloped. The motorized carriages where more or less invented to deal with thinning, you let the carriage down to a stopping point then spool out some line and yard back to the stopping point before pulling back up the hill. The christy had an interesting carriage that was all mechanical, where most of the newer ones there is an RC motor in the carriage to control intermediate yarding.


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## lfnh (Dec 21, 2013)

2dogs posted some really good stuff on running Koller Yarders a whilea ago in this thread:
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...eeding-a-second-mortgage.179516/#post-3155258


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## slowp (Dec 21, 2013)

A Christy Carriage. It slams into the thing with the rude name and that releases a thing so line can be pulled out. You have to move that stop on down the hill as you go.


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## slowp (Dec 21, 2013)




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## bitzer (Dec 21, 2013)

I could of swore Hammerlogging was involved in some yarder operations a few years back. Heli for sure. I remember the pictures. Anyway Kylogger- how many guys you have working for/with you? I've cut/skid 10mbf in a day by myself. That was decent timber of course and a shortish skid. Limb and buck for a forwarder though. I was moving. I'm only thinking that raising your current production with the equipment you have and you might be further ahead for now. I would think you would really need to get out some wood to make anything go. From what I understand there is definitely a niche out that way for it. And why not? But like everyone said the guy to do it would need the right equipment, know how, and the experienced crew to make the thing go at all. I would think most dense hardwoods would make a hell of a tail hold. They tried a motorized carriage and two excavators (one at the top and one at the bottom) in the western part of my state. That way they just moved both machines when they needed to move the line. Not enough or long enough hills to really do that full time around here though. Working in a select cut hardwood stand might be kind of tricky as well.


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## OlympicYJ (Dec 22, 2013)

As mentioned slope is good with yarders. You did hit it on the head the overhead of a yarder is a problem with lots of guys. As stated you need enough work out in front of you to justify one. What dictates your yarder and system is terrain and distance. if you only need to hang out about a 1000 feet smaller yarders/yoders can be used. Linkbelt 98's (cranes converted to yarders) are popular in Idaho as they are cheaper than a full blown swing yarder and they generally don't need the reach of bigger yarders. Check your labor and industry rates. Like Hump said here in WA ours are about $20 an hour. I'm willing to guess you probably won't have that high of rate but compared to you're wages in your area it could be really high.

My advice would be to take a trip out here and look at some yarder operations. Contact the logging associations to connect you with loggers. Washington Contract Loggers, Oregon Contract Loggers would be a good start. Maybe if we could see some pics of the type of ground you're looking at? Also some slope numbers could be helpful.


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## KYLogger (Dec 22, 2013)

I remember Hammer talking about it a time or two. I will try to get some pics (if I can figure out how to post em) of the ground we typically have around here. For a good example look up pictures of the Red River Gorge. It is pretty much in my back yard. Slopes range greatly. Generally we log on stuff from 15 to 50-55 percent slope. (my WAG). The steeper stuff gets logged some but, Man the roads! The really good timber is in places inaccessible or impractical to get with a ground skid ding operation. I had to leave 35 acres of BIG hardwood behind last year because it was down below a cliff line probably 100-150 ft high and a third of a mile out. No practical to blast or hoe ram a gap out and not worth the two mile skid down the creek through neighboring landowners. It is situations like this where I think a yarder would be a great idea. Lots of places that have been logged conventionally around here still have timber in rough places such as this.


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 22, 2013)

I think y'all out west are the yarding and rigging pros. that said, i'm not sure it would be practical very many places on this side. I have always played with the idea of like a mini type yarder boom on a skidder. we have no slopes here but we do have some deep gullys that are pretty much off limits to skidders and it would be to much for a skidder to just winch up on its own.
as for a tail hold, a lot of hard wood may pull over as the roots are on top. a really big sweet gum would be ideal.
white oak be better than red.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 22, 2013)

The hard part about skidding is dragging the line out, esp down or up hill, as most of you know. A yarder gets the hard time consuming part of dragging line out of the way and lets gravity or a haulback winch do the work. Excepting of course dragging the strawline out is still mostly done by hand.

What can be done with a skidder, and isn't real difficult, is to piggy back another winch on it usually a hydraulic type, then you can set up a simple spar tree and tail hold. Cold deck a nice fat pile and skid them later, not as fast as hooking and running, but better then fighting steep hills with a tipsy old skidder, and by far cheaper then buying a yarder. Then you only need on sucker in the bushes... I've considered doing this myself, in fact there was a garret for sale out here awhile back that had this setup on it... sold before I had the money together. 

The haul back winch can usually have smaller diameter cable on it allowing you to stuff more line on it, then you can take a loose piece and tag it onto the bigger mainline winch. This way you're not limited by how much the poor skidder can carry, (most only fit about 100' of 3/4 or so). 

Without going real specific I imaging you could fit 3-400' of 3/8-1/2 line on a mid sized pullmaster, as your haulback, then have the same amount of loose 3/4 for your skyline, hang one block in a nice fat tree run the sky line through it and down to a solid stump or up a tail hold tree, connect the free end to the skidder's main winch, add some kind of carriage and your in business. And you don't necessarily need huge amounts of lift, just enough to get one end of the logs above stumps or other debris,(boulders, rocks, old cars).

The expensive part of this project would probably be the hydraulic winch, and getting the plumbing right on the skidder. Not to mention 1000' of cable...


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## KYLogger (Dec 22, 2013)

For tailhold trees, hickory would work great, as would black gum. Depends on what soil type and depth the tail tree would be in. You can pick up old skidders that are still serviceable enough for the application for 3-4k. Tires would be bald, steering cylinders might leak etc... Getting the additional winch and plumbing would be the trick. Would a shotgun carriage be the best choice? I have alot of climbing experience, ROW clearing, so rigging trees would be no problem. I have a good, well equipped shop. So fabrication should be no problem. With no shovel (we have a Ramer knuckleboom mounted on a C 70 single axle) would it be hard to clear the landing? Only other available equipment are a D4H LGP, a 450E with a winch, and a 440B.


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## HuskStihl (Dec 22, 2013)

I have absolutely no idea what allay'all are talkin' bout, but you're all very generous with your time and knowledge


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## slowp (Dec 22, 2013)

But the strawline comes in sections, so you can pack a coil or two at a time, hook them together and hook it to the skyline or mainline and the yarder does the hefty work. That's where you need an experienced hand, to lay that out ahead of time and reduce the shut down time. 

Picture time, here is a hooktender about to pack a coil uphill and get the strawline strung out ahead of time. They were going to downhill yard



And here's a crew feeding it down the hill for uphill yarding.


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## KYLogger (Dec 22, 2013)

I really appreciate the pics and input!


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## northmanlogging (Dec 22, 2013)

ebay there is a braden for 3500 with 1000' of 5/8, a gearamatic 11, that might do ya and a few others for around the same price, just search for a hydraulic winch and ignore pretty much all of the mile marker stuff.

Setting up the landing is tricky, the spar tree needs to be far enough from the edge to still have solid support, and then be tall enough to get some lift over the edge, This is where a dedicated tower really shines, good spar trees are hard to find... even out here... just use lots of guy lines if you can...

If you can dig up an old christi carriage that would be the way to go, other wise a simple shotgun carriage always works. Never seen the inside of a christi so I couldn't tell ya how they work, although the bull prick is what releases the haulback to be pulled out by the ground crew, and I think it holds the carriage in place until the haulback releases it to go up the hill. Probably just some sort of cam action thing...

from there its a matter of putting the log loader close enough to grab logs as they come in and clear the shoot, but not so close as to be in the way, then push the road up to where trucks can back in to be loaded, You'll find out real quick why we have piggy back trailers out here, on steep ground you don't have the option of building a loop road, you will have to turn the trucks around and back them into the loader. If your using a tree you'll have to work the guy lines around the road, so they don't get in the way of the loader or the trucks.

I would still advice you to look into picking up a used koller, they have all the bells and whistles to make yarder logging easy, modifying a skidder works but its by no means the best way possible. The small yarders also come with a dedicated tower, that will be 10 times safer than any spar tree.

Used I've seen em from 16k up to 60k, although there is a skagit bu-80 near hear for 38k or so... then you would have a full blown yarder, with lots of ponies and lots of big drums, and lots of **** to go wrong...

And really you should come out and see a full yarder operation, spend a few days poking around and asking questions, while its standard to be cagey and suspicious of anyone coming around asking questions... someone on here should be able to put you in touch with a crew willing to humor you for a few days, that and it is pretty out here...


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## KYLogger (Dec 22, 2013)

Thanks alot! I know I can "rig" something up that would work for a situation in a pinch but I think a dedicated tower is the way to go as well. Here is something I think would fit the niche perfectly. http://www.mylittlesalesman.com/ForSale/Details/474135/1976_ECHO-OTHER-Yarders


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## slowp (Dec 22, 2013)

This is a good site.

http://www.vannattabros.com/iron15.html


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## hammerlogging (Dec 23, 2013)

I have worked with and around several cable systems, jammers, medium(big to us) and smaller yarders, skylines out between 1200' (small) to 2300' (big.. for us) Jammers too. real modern ones, not the old truck ones. I am a firm believer in their operational advantages and economic advantages. The knowledge of someone like Humptulips is extremely valuable.

The challenges are just what the lit says. Appalachian timber is mostly suited to smaller yarders, rarely woupld you need to hang a skyline out more than 1600 feet and you'd usually only be yarding in the 1200' or less range. You have to think about volume per setting, settings per day, volume per day, and crew size. If you are running 5 mbf/acre and 7 mbf/ setting and you need 10 mbf to break even, you'll have to reset every day within working hours to get your volume. I've cut 15 mbf/acre plus, but I've also cut plenty "thinnings" as low as 4. (high grading junk stands) If you cost Y to log and there is no reason not to put billy bob on it with his 27 year ol dozer for X, who doesn't know his operating cost anyhow, why would a mill choose you? Maybe there are some places where a premium is there- FS ground, intelligent long term private landownerships, sensitive sites, but mostly, in Appalachia, its do as you please whenever, wherever. So, cable remains an undeveloped asset.

I could talk to you all day about this, and am still committed to making cable a more present alternative in this region. But, its not an easy path, but I hate dozers. Even if they end up subsidizing my yarder exploits....


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## hammerlogging (Dec 23, 2013)

The machine you posted is an ecologger. Yes, its appropriate for this region. Here downhill, even from opposing slopes, would be a real advantage as there is rarely access from above. this means a haulback, at least. I think an ecologger 2 has a haulback.

Yoders are generally well suited to be paired with a real yarder to pick up corners. They are generally minimum 35k pounds but more often are in the 50 ton range, once outfitted. thats oversize and overweight. just so you don't need guylines. How are you going to get that across those last 2 bridges into the job, and are you going to build the road to landing for this machine? No. 

Also to consider, rarely will a haul truck make it to the yarder, which means you will have to swing stems to a real landing witha skidder or something. We just dont have the infrastructure, unless you're in coal or gas country, mayube you are, in which case, youn have a real advantage.


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## KYLogger (Dec 23, 2013)

I appreciate your insight and knowledge Hammer, I know well of what you speak. Especially is western NC as anything like east central KY. Gotta love the "Billy Bob" mentality! I am one of those dozer and skidder outfits, and will probably always have that side of my operation going. I can also relate to the do whatever, whenever practices. For the most part if a landowner sells timber around here they NEED the money, care of the land is an afterthought (if thought of at all) I truly believe there is a place for cable jobs an I believe that it can be profitable. There is just alot to consider......


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## KYLogger (Dec 23, 2013)

Not in coal or gas country. So that counts out good haul roads. I had not considered the weight class machine it would take for an effective yoder. And haul road building to the tops of most hills in this area would be wholly impractical for the volume of timber per set. It is very hard to come across the Eco Loggers it seems. More discussion on this matter is warranted.


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## slowp (Dec 24, 2013)

Sounds like a mainline and haulback come with it. A Christy carriage needs the help of gravity to work, but you probably know that. 
I found this.


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## KYLogger (Dec 24, 2013)

I saw that one too. It needed a little TLC, but unfortunately it was headed for the big scrapyard in the sky!


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## wowzers (Jan 13, 2014)

Not sure if your still looking but the FS came out with plans for a couple of mini yarders. You can write the people in Missoula and they will mail you a free set of tech drawings for their Bitteroot and Clearwater yarder.


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## wowzers (Jan 13, 2014)

Here are some pics of them. I bet slowp could tell you more about them.


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## KYLogger (Jan 13, 2014)

Great! Thanks, I like shop built projects anyhow. Good wintertime work!


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## northmanlogging (Jan 13, 2014)

I was pondering my gyppo yarder, if I reconfigure it and switch my haulback to 3/8 I can get 500+ feet on it. I would still have to have the main line shackled in but I can probably man handle 4-500' of 1/2" around its only 200#s could maybe use the haulback as a crappy strawline, and get some real range out of it.

I was originally worried about snapping lines and whatnot, but really it just needs to be faster and have a better reach. 3/8 has a breaking strength of 12000#s and the winches are only rated to 8k. Anyway still need a better motor and something resembling a real clutch.

Or there KY... the big winch on mine is just the larger deuce and a half winch (half track?) its drum is 12" wide and 12" in diameter, with a 6" barrel, I figure a guy could easily rig one on to the back of a skidder with a hydraulic motor to turn it and be in business, the whole thing is maybe 20" long and a little over 14" wide.

Damn it now you guy's got me engineering again... few 100 feet of 2" 1/4 wall tubing, some welding, couple of burly come-a-longs for guy lines, derelict car trailer, 2-3 cylnder diesel out of a boat with the sail drive thingy... some corrugated roofing... couple cans of cat yeller... hot damn it would look almost like the real thing...


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## KYLogger (Jan 13, 2014)

Our thought process has seem to have gone the same direction. I am thinking an Onan or Perkins diesel, a 12' tandem axle trailer. I like the idea of a divorced t case for the drums. I think I am gonna send off for the plans on the Bitterroot, and engineer it a little heavier duty. I was trying to figure out the guy line situation and the only thing different I could come up with than you was the mandatory Barley after the burly come a long cranking of course!


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## northmanlogging (Jan 13, 2014)

I have a pair of hand crank boat type winches, with cam locks and the whole works... have 5/16 galvey on em now, perhaps a couple of those *****'n chain come-a-longs shackled to the guys wouldn't be so bad, and you would only need to do the guys once a week or so for full time production. Other then a daily tightening...


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## OlympicYJ (Jan 16, 2014)

Here's a christy yarder on a freightliner for sale out of Dallas, OR.

http://www.mylittlesalesman.com/ForSale/Details/875767/0_Christy-Yarder-Yarders


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## OlympicYJ (Jan 16, 2014)

Couple of Kollers for sale too. http://www.mylittlesalesman.com/Inventory/Index/1/125/0/0/New-and-Used-Yarders-For-Sale?p=1


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