# Carl Hazen: Destroyer of Carriages



## Meadow Beaver (Mar 22, 2009)

I had to put this on here, I was just shocked that Carl kept ramming the car into that snag until it would bearly go. I'm sure Jay didn't let that one go so easily.


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## wvlogger (Mar 22, 2009)

woder why he did not stop? surely he seen the mainline drum not rolling:jawdrop:


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 22, 2009)

And he was hitting that snag really hard.


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## wvlogger (Mar 22, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> And he was hitting that snag really hard.



i would think it would have broke the sang with a hit that hard


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## AOD (Mar 22, 2009)

And I thought Leyland broke a lot of stuff. 

Bring back Ritchie and Melvin, the only yarder operators that knew what the helvate they were doing.


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 22, 2009)

I think Carl has been under the influence of Bill Simmons and Jack Daniels a little too long.


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## Jkebxjunke (Mar 22, 2009)

I guess he is of the school... if you cant find it .. grind it... or if it gets stuck .. give it more power or if you cant jam it... ram it....


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 22, 2009)

Just like the captain of the Titanic, they told him it was an "unsinkable" vessle but he found a way.


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 22, 2009)

Carl comes from the school of "Ritig", run it till its garbarge.


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## Rookie1 (Mar 22, 2009)

Ill bet there was more to it then we seen.That guy semed to be a better operator last year.


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 22, 2009)

He probably thought it wasn't that sturdy, but i thought after the 2nd or 3rd hit he would have said fall it.


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## forestryworks (Mar 22, 2009)

cut the snag first... doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 23, 2009)

forestryworks said:


> cut the snag first... doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out



EXACTLY


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## Humptulips (Mar 24, 2009)

It is not the engineers place to stop or go ahead on a line. His job is to obey the whistles. Any blame has to go to the rigging slinger or hooktender. You get a go ahead you do just that. The engineer cannot or should be expected to see what's happening out in the brush. In fact an engineer that decides to pull rigging from the seat of the yarder will be tramped pretty quick.


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## 2dogs (Mar 24, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> It is not the engineers place to stop or go ahead on a line. His job is to obey the whistles. Any blame has to go to the rigging slinger or hooktender. You get a go ahead you do just that. The engineer cannot or should be expected to see what's happening out in the brush. In fact an engineer that decides to pull rigging from the seat of the yarder will be tramped pretty quick.



I aggre. Having the carriage or skyline move when it is not supposed to is deadly and I have only worked with small wood. I can't see a maveric working the seat of a yarder. The crew would demand he be fired or they would walk off.


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## slowp (Mar 24, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> It is not the engineers place to stop or go ahead on a line. His job is to obey the whistles. Any blame has to go to the rigging slinger or hooktender. You get a go ahead you do just that. The engineer cannot or should be expected to see what's happening out in the brush. In fact an engineer that decides to pull rigging from the seat of the yarder will be tramped pretty quick.



This is true. I saw a brand new carriage repeatedly slam into the tail tree because the rigging crew was slow to hit the bugs. It was a nice day and they might have wanted to go fishing early? 

Then I've seen, from behind a BIG stump, the same crew puposely knock over a tree that was in the way. It was quicker than sending a saw up. (downhill yarding setup). I slapped some paint on the tree and they bucked it up and sent it in.


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 24, 2009)

Yes, Jesse is to blame as well. He just stood there while he rammed into the snag.


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## pickwood (Mar 25, 2009)

First rule in any equipment operating is to use common sense- second rule, when in-doubt stop what you are doing. He followed neither rule!


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## Humptulips (Mar 25, 2009)

pickwood said:


> First rule in any equipment operating is to use common sense- second rule, when in-doubt stop what you are doing. He followed neither rule!



An engineers responsibility is to follow the signals. How do you expect him to blindly know what's going on over the hill? He should be watching his drums. The man with the whistle (slinger or hooker) is his eyes and it's best if he follows his signals. Sure I have had engineers stop pulling when they thought they were about to break something but thats usually a line. How the heck is he going to see the carriage when it's off the landing or tell what's happening by feel. Bottom line is the slinger or if he was around the hooker gets the blame. They could have stopped him. Another thing while watching it it looked like it did stop but it sounded like the crew spit some slack out of the Bowman. This would cause the carriage to surge ahead and bang the snag. Whatever happened don't blame the engineer. He followed the signals and that's all you can expect of him.

And for those of you that don't know, things get broke when you're yarding logs. Better expect it. If you don't know this you probably never spent any time on the rigging. Those Bowmans are built flimsy to save weight. Not unusual to break one down. Like they say "sit happens" and the next time the rigging crew will probably cut that snag close to the line.


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## slowp (Mar 25, 2009)

pickwood said:


> First rule in any equipment operating is to use common sense- second rule, when in-doubt stop what you are doing. He followed neither rule!



Do you hear those whistles? The toot noise? That is what the yarder engineer pays attention to. On the ground around here, we have a lot of places where you can't see over from the landing. The technical term is Blind Lead. How is a yarder engineer supposed to know what is going on if he can't see? So he's gotta listen for the guys in the brush telling him via the whistle. 

The whistle is controlled by a guy down in the brush setting chokers. He's the one in control. If you can see, there's a little red rectangle thingy on a belt around his waist. That's the bug and he pushes on a metal flat bar which contacts something radioish, and that causes a whistle up at the yarder to blow. There's a whole system of codes. Short bursts and long bursts. Some motorized carriages also make noises, they sound more like a Chevy pickup horn. Look up *Talkie Tooter *to learn more.

The red thing on the side of the guy on the left is what they use. The middle guy also has one on.


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## Metals406 (Mar 25, 2009)

A Christy carriage, or Shotgun Carriage Can handle more abuse like that... Can't do that with a power-slack carriage (like an Eagle or Maki).

We never used the Talky Tooters... Only radios. And the boss/owner ran the yarder, so he would pick up the turn if it was line of site (sometimes). He would just pick-it-up when you ran clear. When you were too far away from the yarder, or over a crest, then you used the radios more.

Commands were fast and simple:

_"Pick it up"_--meant it was all his, and he could give it the berries!

_"Pick it up easy"_--used when you were trying to do something with the turn... Like _"roll-on"_, _"face-on"_ or the like.

_"Hold!"_--means everything stops instantly.

_"Slack the sky"_--used to move the stop, when using a Christy Carriage.

I liked the radios, because you could relay more information to the yarder with them, as apposed to "Beep, beep, beep"... To each his own I guess? It probably has to do with the fact, that that's how I was trained, and we never used the Talky Tooter... If I used them for a while, I might like it.

But a good example of a radio working way better, is when Leland sent that tree back down the hill. It was a rare set, when we couldn't see the mast of the yarder. If that would have happened on our crew, we would have radioed instantly, and the tree wouldn't have made it 10 feet.


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## Humptulips (Mar 26, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> A Christy carriage, or Shotgun Carriage Can handle more abuse like that... Can't do that with a power-slack carriage (like an Eagle or Maki).
> 
> We never used the Talky Tooters... Only radios. And the boss/owner ran the yarder, so he would pick up the turn if it was line of site (sometimes). He would just pick-it-up when you ran clear. When you were too far away from the yarder, or over a crest, then you used the radios more.
> 
> ...



Truth is the crew could have stopped that just as fast or probably faster with a radio whistle. A stop is just a squeeze of the hand away and a long whistle gets the engineers attention fast.
There is a signal for everything and it's faster to blow the whistle then to say it in words. Sideblocking with a slackline and need to slack the skyline while tightlining with the skidding line and haulback while skinning it back? There's a whistle for that.
Trouble with a radio the engineer can talk back. I don't need that, just do what I say.


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## 2dogs (Mar 26, 2009)

Is it legal to use just a radio in Oregon or Washington?


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## Metals406 (Mar 26, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> Truth is the crew could have stopped that just as fast or probably faster with a radio whistle. A stop is just a squeeze of the hand away and a long whistle gets the engineers attention fast.
> There is a signal for everything and it's faster to blow the whistle then to say it in words. Sideblocking with a slackline and need to slack the skyline while tightlining with the skidding line and haulback while skinning it back? There's a whistle for that.
> Trouble with a radio the engineer can talk back. I don't need that, just do what I say.



Like I said... I ain't never run with one of them fancy noise makers (would be fun to try). I'd say a radio whistle or just a voice would be neck and neck though. You'd have your hand on the mic pretty much all day... It don't take but a half a second to key the mic and say 'hold'.

Our operation was very efficient with radios.


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## slowp (Mar 26, 2009)

2dogs said:


> Is it legal to use just a radio in Oregon or Washington?



Well, the Talkie Tooters are technically radios. Some also come with radios for talking on them. Most outfits run both. You'll see them with the little walkie talkies strapped to their chests too. But, the yarder is pretty loud and the whistle is louder. Everybody can hear the whistle, even the chaser. It is safer that way. 

Now, there's a father son crew, and that's all they are, and they use radios. But the batteries don't last. They were logging some short roads so they waved and did hand signals. and sometimes yelled like the boat guy except the son yelled back at the dad too. They realized that they'd have to find a talkie tooter system for later on in the unit, when the skyline roads got longer.


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## Metals406 (Mar 26, 2009)

slowp said:


> Well, the Talkie Tooters are technically radios. Some also come with radios for talking on them. Most outfits run both. You'll see them with the little walkie talkies strapped to their chests too. But, the yarder is pretty loud and the whistle is louder. Everybody can hear the whistle, even the chaser. It is safer that way.
> 
> Now, there's a father son crew, and that's all they are, and they use radios. But the batteries don't last. They were logging some short roads so they waved and did hand signals. and sometimes yelled like the boat guy except the son yelled back at the dad too. They realized that they'd have to find a talkie tooter system for later on in the unit, when the skyline roads got longer.



The radio system we used wasn't cheap (like the little FRS/GMRS radios)... It was the same type as fire or police used, where you have to purchase the band... The range was measured in miles, and the batteries lasted all day. When we were on Calico creek (somewhere around 8,000 feet) we caught skip from Idaho... They (whoever it was) had purchased the same band, but were far enough away usually, that it didn't matter.

There was a loud speaker on the Yarder that was hooked to the radio system (and a good sized speaker in the cab)... When someone talked it blared across the landing (just like on a utility rig). The Yarder also blew it's airhorn twice whenever it was picking-up a turn or moving any of the rigging.


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## slowp (Mar 26, 2009)

The whistles sure are loud. I was on the other side of a ridge across from a yarder, and I could still hear it. 

If you listen closely during the show, you'll hear the whistles blowing for stop and go while the narrator claims it is broke down or that everyone is down and waiting for the tree to be rigged. One time I could hear the carriage noise while they supposedly were shut down and waiting.


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## Metals406 (Mar 26, 2009)

slowp said:


> The whistles sure are loud. I was on the other side of a ridge across from a yarder, and I could still hear it.
> 
> If you listen closely during the show, you'll hear the whistles blowing for stop and go while the narrator claims it is broke down or that everyone is down and waiting for the tree to be rigged. One time I could hear the carriage noise while they supposedly were shut down and waiting.



LOL!! Been in the woods too long??


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## 2dogs (Mar 26, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> The radio system we used wasn't cheap (like the little FRS/GMRS radios)... It was the same type as fire or police used, where you have to purchase the band... The range was measured in miles, and the batteries lasted all day. When we were on Calico creek (somewhere around 8,000 feet) we caught skip from Idaho... They (whoever it was) had purchased the same band, but were far enough away usually, that it didn't matter.
> 
> There was a loud speaker on the Yarder that was hooked to the radio system (and a good sized speaker in the cab)... When someone talked it blared across the landing (just like on a utility rig). The Yarder also blew it's airhorn twice whenever it was picking-up a turn or moving any of the rigging.



That is what we use. The speaker on the yarder is deafening when you run it.


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## Metals406 (Mar 26, 2009)

2dogs said:


> That is what we use. The speaker on the yarder is deafening when you run it.



Yup! That setup is plenty loud for everyone to hear... All the equipment had it like that, so everyone was abreast the situation.


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## Humptulips (Mar 27, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> The radio system we used wasn't cheap (like the little FRS/GMRS radios)... It was the same type as fire or police used, where you have to purchase the band... The range was measured in miles, and the batteries lasted all day. When we were on Calico creek (somewhere around 8,000 feet) we caught skip from Idaho... They (whoever it was) had purchased the same band, but were far enough away usually, that it didn't matter



That right there is a serious safety problem. You don't want someone from another side saying to go ahead on it while you're in the middle of things setting chokers or fighting a hangup.
Also they may be loud but when I'm hooking I want to be able to keep track of what's going on a couple of thousand feet away on the back end without keeping a radio to my ear. I've got work to do but I also need to keep track of what's going on. I've worked many a show where you couldn't understand what someone yelled from the landing with the equipment shut off. Whistles come through loud and clear.
I can see the two way radio becoming a BS session much like what happens with CB radios. Talkie tooters are all business and they're tough to. To top it off those motorized carriages don't speak english.
I like the talkie tooters. Guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks.LOL


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## Metals406 (Mar 27, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> That right there is a serious safety problem. You don't want someone from another side saying to go ahead on it while you're in the middle of things setting chokers or fighting a hangup.
> Also they may be loud but when I'm hooking I want to be able to keep track of what's going on a couple of thousand feet away on the back end without keeping a radio to my ear. I've got work to do but I also need to keep track of what's going on. I've worked many a show where you couldn't understand what someone yelled from the landing with the equipment shut off. Whistles come through loud and clear.
> I can see the two way radio becoming a BS session much like what happens with CB radios. Talkie tooters are all business and they're tough to. To top it off those motorized carriages don't speak english.
> I like the talkie tooters. Guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks.LOL



There's the rub... Our crew always got screwed out'a the Maki, so we always had the Christy carriage.

I guess you'd have to hook with a radio to understand it's not dangerous, or cumbersome. The handhelds are plenty loud, and you wore them on a chest harness. I've used those radios in three different jobs: Logging, working with a helicopter while seismographing, and on the FD. 

You'll Notice that the Heli crew out'a Missoula MT (on Axmen) uses a radio to hook... That's just like what we did.
There were aways two hookers in the brush, and only one had the radio... He called the ball. There was no chitty-chatter allowed on them, other than work... The other crews used a different channel. That skip from Idaho was a one time deal... And didn't cause any trouble.


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 27, 2009)

Basic miscommunication with Carl and Jesse, thats what it comes down to.


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## slowp (Mar 27, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> Basic miscommunication with Carl and Jesse, thats what it comes down to.



I'd say more of a scripting by the writers/producers of the show.


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## Meadow Beaver (Mar 30, 2009)

Your right the damage probably wasn't that severe.


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