# Foresters: What's Your Job Really Like?



## Matt59 (Mar 27, 2013)

Hey Everyone, 

I forget how I happened upon this site a few weeks ago but I became a member due to some questions I want to ask.
I got out of the Marines last year and am in my second semester at community college. It's starting to get to that time where I have to pick a major. I've been thinking about Forestry/Forest Management. 
I'm an outdoorsman and spend all the time I can in the woods and I care about conservation and managing our forests. I enjoy hard work and being outdoors. I don't care about being cold, wet, muddy, etc, I like to get dirty and feel like I did a hard day's work. Logging would be cool but there isn't much opportunity for that here in Godforsaken Suburban MD...I have thought about being an arborist or a wildland firefighter before too and they both appeal to me as well.
I really don't like being in school, I'd rather work, but I understand the importance of education and I'm on the GI Bill so I might as well take advantage of it now. I wake up every morning before school and wish I was going to work with my hands instead of sitting in class with 25 immature, undisciplined kids (have to stop myself from ranting), but tell myself I should plow through school now so I don't regret it 20 years down the road.
I know I definitely don't want to work inside or have to wear a suit and shiny shoes to work the rest of my life, so I've been thinking a lot about careers lately. I want to work outside, with my hands. I like environmental-type science but I don't want to spend my life in a lab either. I've picked up woodworking lately and am doing two carpentry classes at school, so I'm becoming aware that whatever I do for a living should involve wood, work, and being outdoors.

Anyway, I've read the basic "What does a Forester Do?" pages on the internet but I know that that information is never really accurate.
So, what's a forester's job really like? Do you enjoy it? What do you dislike about it? Would you recommend it as a career?

Thanks for the input. I've learned a lot from this site lately and I appreciate any comments and feedback.


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## Natty Bumppo (Mar 27, 2013)

Offhand, I can think of 3 kinds of foresters: the government kind, the logging business kind, and the utility company kind. I mostly work with the government kind (I'm a biologist). NRCS foresters work with private landowners, offering advice and plans for establishing and managing timber. State agency foresters do 2 kinds of work in my state: working with private landowners, giving advice and developing plans for tree establishment and timber management; or managing state owned conservation areas. On state lands they inventory timber tracts, develop management plans, execute timber sales, etc. They may also supervise a work crew, and be involved with both prescribed burning on state lands and helping fight wildfires. 

Utility companies hire foresters to keep the rights-of-way clear of trees. They work with easements and supervise either an in-house crew or contractors that do most of the cutting. Simple enough in rural areas, a pain in the a** in urban areas. Don't work with any U.S. Forest Service foresters or timber company foresters, so I can't say much about their jobs. There's a lot more to it than that, especially all the little things, but that's kind of a big picture perspective. 

As I indicated, I'm not a forester. Maybe someone who is can chime in and offer a better job description.

Good luck with the education and job search. If you're school offers S130/S190 wildland fire class, take it. With that and a pack test, you can get red carded and be eligible to fight fires with the fed's. There's also an S212 wildland fire chainsaw class (S130/190 would be a prerequisite to that). All fallers working on wildfires need to go through that class and be certified. If you're interested in pursuing forestry and have an interest in wildfires and chainsaws, those would be some good classes to get under your belt. In Missouri, they host the Midwest Wildland Fire Academy for a week or 2 each summer. They offer the above classes as well as a lot of others. Maybe there's something similar around MD.


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## Matt59 (Mar 27, 2013)

Thanks Natty Bumppo. I've done some searching for wildland fire jobs on usajobs.gov. Many of the ones I've looked at list prerequisites of previous fire experience or college credits in agriculture/forestry/soil conservation etc. Another reason to stay in school. My school doesn't offer those classes but I'm doing some reading on them now. If I'm reading this right, a person can get their red card without actually being hired by an agency/department? So it's kind of like individual certification or training to get yourself qualified to actually get hired?


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## madhatte (Mar 27, 2013)

Fingers crossed that this turns into as interesting a thread as I think it could. We definitely have a few very different perspectives on forestry represented here. 

Myself, I come from a forestry family. I grew up around foresters... the industry research kind. They're a rare breed now, but that wasn't always the case. As a youth, I wanted to be either a photographer or a pro skateboarder. It wasn't until college that I found myself interested in plants, and it wasn't until I got thrown out of my second (of three) senior years in college that I discovered that a plant nerd with no degree can't get a job doing plant nerd stuff. So, I ended up in forestry. 

Turns out, I liked it. I worked for 3 years as a contractor doing inventory and survey work all over the Pacific Northwest, for both private and public agencies. The travel was awesome and watching the seasons change has always been one of may favorite parts of the work. However, the ass fell out of contracting in the late '90's and I found myself with more expenses than prospects. SO, I did a hitch in the Navy, largely to get the GI bill and finish college. That brings us to late '06. 

My first job after school is the one I have now. I've been here since May '07. This is how a year in my job generally goes, starting today. This week we are planting. We'll put about 75,000 trees in the ground in a week, using a contract crew. Myself and my co-workers do the QA inspections. We also load and unload all the bagged seedlings from the truck and cooler. Next week is some training. Last year I was fortunate to get training on some inventory software. This year I will be studying Variable Probability Sampling. When I get back, we'll be doing the annual re-cert for our Red Cards. We usually see our first fire about this time of year; as it happens, that was yesterday. It was not a big deal and required no action. This is often the case until well into June. 

Throughout the year I do a lot of GIS work. Not only do I make maps of sale units, roads, fires, and wetlands, but I have also done some interesting analyses using LIDAR data. These are not techniques I'm formally trained in, but rather things I have taught myself because there was something in particular I wanted to understand. Usually this kind of proactive approach pays dividends. 

Summer brings fire, which is another duty in this job. We usually have a seasonal crew of 14. This year, due to budget wonkiness, probably not. Should be interesting. We get lots of small fires but only occasionally a big one. Last year's biggest was ~2000 acres of grass and woodland and took us 5 days to get contained. 

Timber sales are our bread and butter. We begin with a suggested area of interest; usually this is an area either known to be overstocked or an area that was last entered >10 years ago. We seldom do clear-cuts, opting instead for very targeted variable-density thins. After reconning the area, we do a volume cruise to get an idea what's in the unit. Then we do the preliminary review. This is a paperwork process and is where the bunny huggers and fish ticklers get their first crack at our plans. We address their concerns before moving on. Next, we determine the actual area for the sale and bound it out. Then we mark it for harvest. Marking is a time-consuming process whose importance can't be overstated. Once marked, there is some tricky math to figure out final volume to harvest, and the finished sale paperwork is passed out for a second review. Again, all stakeholder concerns are addressed. Finally the unit is sold, the roads prepared for hauling, and the trees harvested. Once closed out, the sale area is replanted as necessary, and left to grow for a few years before the cycle starts over. 

Here are a few of my auxiliary duties, as well. I keep a database of timber thefts and dump sites, one of invasive species, and another of vehicles and equipment conditions. I maintain all of our small engines. I maintain all of our field computers and their software. I was recently certified as a COR (contract officer's representative), the only task I have, other than fire, which could get me arrested if I do it wrong. I do market research, both for tree stuff and equipment. Supposedly we'll soon be taking over our own sale administration as well. Should be interesting. I never go anywhere without a GPS, or a saw. Knowing the rules is a full-time job, as well. 

Every day is busy, and I never know what to expect. I don't bother much worrying about the weather. I like what I do and can't imagine doing anything else. My only real complaint is that there aren't more hours in the day. Budget stuff chafes, but is well beyond my control, so if I ##### now and then, I'm just letting off steam. This is very cool work, if you are into it, and can find the job. Don't do it if you don't love it. Spend a season or two out there doing different things before committing. Ex-military folks tend to do well in forestry because they are used to change and adapt quickly to new rules.


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## Jacob J. (Mar 27, 2013)

I can give you the full-time fire perspective. I'm an operations specialist with a DOI network that encompasses several different areas. Like Madhatte, I rarely know for sure what a new day will bring. One minute I can be doing fuels reduction with my crew, then called away for a technical rescue/car crash/medical response/wildfire. Summer before last, I was IC (incident commander) on a large technical rescue where a young man had fallen off a cliff and was trapped in a group of rocks and trees overhanging a 600' drop to the valley floor. It took us 4 hours to rescue him and he was in a coma for three weeks but made a full recovery. A few days after that, I was on a large fire in northern California prepping for a 1700-acre burn out in heavy timber. 

Sometimes you'll be camping out under the stars; sometimes you'll be making a hooch in the rain. It can be blistering hot and dusty, or freezing cold and wet. You can start the day off on the valley floor in good weather and that night end up on a mountain top and have it start snowing on you. You can go from a large fire in central New Mexico to an isolated wilderness fire in northern Montana. As in the military- there's a lot of "hurry up and wait" in fire fighting. There's also a lot of feast or famine in this job. Some years are really slow, and some years there's so much activity you're going non-stop from April until Thanksgiving. There's lots of preparation too- physical and mental fitness, equipment, training, overall program readiness, project work, prescribed fires, etc. 

This year, two of my main projects are prepping nine units for burning which comprise 4000 acres, and falling up to 900 snags of all sizes in a hazard tree contract with the Forest Service. Definitely get your education- a small investment in that now will pay big rewards in the future.


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## Gologit (Mar 27, 2013)

Good thread. We need Slowp in here, too.


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## Matt59 (Mar 27, 2013)

Thanks madhatte and Jacob J. The way you two put it, it sounds like it's a very busy job with a broad range of things you do. I like the sound of that.
I'm staying in school for sure right now. Community college is what it is...but I'm going to try to transfer to NC State next year. 
As for now, I'm looking for a summer job, preferably involving trees, chainsaws, axes, hard labor, or any combination of those.


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## KenJax Tree (Mar 27, 2013)

I can't believe nobody has mentioned anything about 7-11 coffee and donuts yet:msp_biggrin:


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## Gologit (Mar 27, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> I can't believe nobody has mentioned anything about 7-11 coffee and donuts yet:msp_biggrin:



That's LOGGERS...foresters have croissants and cappuchino at some place with real linen tablecloths and snooty waiters. 



I'll go stand in the corner now, with my Donettos and 7-11 coffee, and try to look contrite.


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## slowp (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm kind of slow at thinking so there will probably be bits to add later. 

I retired 2 years ago after 32 years with the Forest Service. I stumbled upon forestry after actually finding out that I liked a botany class. I have a 2 year degree, it was what I could afford. My background is Timber except for 5 years on the darkside as an engineer tech--roads.

Now, this was the failure of most of my fellow classmates. Are you good at math? There is a lot of it to do in forest work. It is easier now, the computer does a lot of it, but I imagine you still need a good background to get through school. I almost didn't make it.

Sounds like you will actually want to get out in the environment. It isn't a park, and you won't be walking on trails. A lot of folks can't handle it, kind of like logging, you will fall down, trip and get banged up sometimes. Timber people usually wear out their knees, feet, and or ankles if they stay in a job that is more fieldwork. My feet went bad and I also turned an ankle black a couple of times, landing on it wrong.

When I started, we got grunt jobs like tree planting and then timber marking. Timber marking still exists in places. You get to carry paint in a pack or vest and paint stripes and dots on trees. Up and down the hill, day after day after day...it can get old sometimes, but then you will come across something cool that most folks won't see, like an old cabin, or corral or dead critter (look out for cougars and bears--run away!might be hollered by a mischevious crewperson.:msp_biggrin

I even got helicoptered into places to take plots, but we always had to hike out, the helicopter was on call in the afternoons to go to fires. So, be prepared to buy spendy boots...probably not the Chippewas. :msp_rolleyes: I'd encourage you to go get fire qualified. Fires can break up the monotony if you are marking timber day after day after day, but sometimes they won't let timber people go because timber people have a specific quantity of work that must be completed by a certain time--a TARGET. 

I worked my way into timber cruising, and then got into a most interesting field...sale administration. I found out that I really liked butting heads with loggers and working through problems to get trees on the ground and up on trucks. However, if you want to do that, you'll need to learn how different logging systems work, and be prepared for phone calls at home at night needing you to be up on the unit at dawn.
Some guys won't do that, and they still can have the job, but they won't get much respect or cooperation when a little bit extra effort is needed other than what is required from the loggers. This job is great if you hate to plan ahead and have a definite schedule. 

You also have to be prepared to say NO. You'll have begging, whining, sniveling guys trying to cut corners and you'll need to say NO again and again and again...There are very bad, conniving loggers out there that cannot be trusted, but there are some very professional excellent ones. In fact, there seems to be fewer of the bad ones around. I think the competition weeded a lot of them out. You'll have to--when it is safe and the logs won't roll like in a thinning, walk and hop and crawl through the fell and buck to go mark a tree that needs to come down, and also to check the work. Out here, you'll have to go down to the bottom of a unit and beyond to look at and give the OK to use trees for rigging purposes. And maybe again if minds change. Then you will also grab some paint and mark out skyline corridors or skid trails for machinery. More paint.

Now, if you can, go for a BS degree. Otherwise, when you are in on the planning process, some folks won't think you are competent. That is in some places. There are places where the planning people work well together to get out a project, and there are places where team members have personal agendas and deliberatly will stall things. I've been at both kinds of places. 

The Forest Service, being Federal, offers the ability to see different parts of the country. But, being Federal, they also have a lot of BS to deal with, like the current budget business. 

I can't write anymore right now, my brain is starting to hurt. Must be from all the paint fumes inhaled over the years.


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## slowp (Mar 27, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> I can't believe nobody has mentioned anything about 7-11 coffee and donuts yet:msp_biggrin:



If you deal with the logging side of things, you have to be able to eat while driving and also drive with calks on. There isn't time to dawdle at mini-marts. Oh, and the ability to back up for a few miles while the MACK truck bulldog is an inch away from your radiator is also a good skill to have.


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 27, 2013)

Gologit said:


> That's LOGGERS...foresters have croissants and cappuchino at some place with real linen tablecloths and snooty waiters.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll go stand in the corner now, with my Donettos and 7-11 coffee, and try to look contrite.



ever have a logger burger ?


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## Matt59 (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm decent at math. By decent, I mean I'm breezing through the lowest level math courses at CC right now. Thats what happens when you don't take an entrance exam...Math teacher and I looked at the program reqs. for Forest Management at NC State. It's a lot of math, but I can get it done. Chemistry is what scares me, but heck, I'll make it work. 

As for the physical side, I know I can do it. 4 years in the infantry patrolling from the swamps of eastern NC to the wasteland of southern AFG with a ton of gear, ammo, water, weapons, and body armor showed me what I can do as far as humping weight...it also made me hate my life at times though I know, thats not a lifetime of logging in the PNW mountains, but it's still enought to prove to myself my body's capabilities.

I appreciate your honesty slowp, and everyone elses too. This is really looking like something I'd love to do. That's what matters to me now. Yeah, money and benefits and that stuff will matter when I have a family to support. But right now I just want to get into something that really satisfies me.


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## madhatte (Mar 27, 2013)

Matt59 said:


> Community college is what it is...but I'm going to try to transfer to NC State next year.



Community colleges are often a great bang for the buck. You'll get all of the "ENG 101" type classes out of the way, same as at any other school, but with much smaller classes and for way less money. For the first two years, you can hardly do better. Also, it's often easier to transfer to your school of choice as a Junior than it is to be accepted as a Freshman. 



slowp said:


> Oh, and the ability to back up for a few miles while the MACK truck bulldog is an inch away from your radiator is also a good skill to have.



It's good practice for when there are TWO of those Mack bulldogs all up in your grill. I've ditched the truck a couple of times getting out of the way of somebody coming out with a load on when I was on the wrong channel on the CB, which often happens when you're crossing ownerships. The Oregon Coast Range is a good place for that kind of adventure. Remember: downhill and loaded ALWAYS has the right-of--way.


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## slowp (Mar 27, 2013)

madhatte said:


> It's good practice for when there are TWO of those Mack bulldogs all up in your grill. I've ditched the truck a couple of times getting out of the way of somebody coming out with a load on when I was on the wrong channel on the CB, which often happens when you're crossing ownerships. The Oregon Coast Range is a good place for that kind of adventure. Remember: downhill and loaded ALWAYS has the right-of--way.



Always assume that there is a truck with a broken radio on the road. The place called Crewbus Corner is named for a reason.


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## slowp (Mar 27, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> ever have a logger burger ?



Those are served at the Huff and Puff.


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## forestryworks (Mar 27, 2013)

Matt59 said:


> I really don't like being in school, I'd rather work



My grandpa always told me, "you got plenty of time to spend the rest of your life working."

Do your schooling now while you've got the financial aid of the GI bill. Get a bachelors, too. It will give you more opportunities for when you are too old to hike up steep sidehills. A bachelors will give you more opportunities for permanent jobs over seasonal work. Competition is fierce, so make good grades!

I've got an associate of applied science in forestry and a bachelor of science in natural resource management. I'm glad I finished both degrees. 

And remember this, school is a full time job, just like anything else. Form a good academic ethic, it usually translates to a good work ethic later.


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## Matt59 (Mar 27, 2013)

forestryworks said:


> My grandpa always told me, "you got plenty of time to spend the rest of your life working."
> 
> Do your schooling now while you've got the financial aid of the GI bill.
> 
> And remember this, school is a full time job, just like anything else. Form a good academic ethic, it usually translates to a good work ethic later.



I have to keep reminding myself of that, and of the fact that if I don't finish this now I probably never will. Also, I guess I could go out now and find some work, but without a degree there's a big chance I'll be stuck doing that same thing forever without chance of promotion, advancement, etc. 

This young buck just needs a kick in the pants every once in a while, I suppose!


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## madhatte (Mar 27, 2013)

Matt59 said:


> This young buck just needs a kick in the pants every once in a while, I suppose!



This crowd is _all about_ the constructive mutual pants-kicking.


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## Gologit (Mar 27, 2013)

Matt59 said:


> This young buck just needs a kick in the pants every once in a while, I suppose!



 Ask and ye shall receive.

You've had some great advice here from people who know what they're talking about. Grab that education while you can.

And when you become a forester remember to treat the loggers nicely. They deserve it.


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## slowp (Mar 27, 2013)

If you bake cookies and bribe the loggers, they will sometimes promise and keep the promise not to harass the extremely young men who want to see if they want to work as foresters and are out for the day following along. Cookies also encourage good work, and act as a reward for pulling the forester's pickup out of the snowy or muddy or dry ditch. 

One of the best parts of working on the logging end is that you meet some unique and eccentric characters.
Those are getting to be rare and endangered. 

View attachment 287153
View attachment 287154


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## Matt59 (Mar 27, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Ask and ye shall receive.
> 
> You've had some great advice here from people who know what they're talking about. Grab that education while you can.
> 
> And when you become a forester remember to treat the loggers nicely. They deserve it.



I admit I kinda envy you guys. Not many chances to do anything that resembles logging over here, about 40 miles from the White House! I fired up the saw today and cut a chunk out of an an big old fallen tree, though. I was getting tired of having to set my bow and target block down and slide over the log on my way out to the power lines to shoot. And I did fell a few black birch and buck and limb a big cherry over spring break, on family land in NY. 
Thanks to everyone for the advice. I've found a lot of good information on here lately and I can tell the folks here really know what they're talking about.


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## HuskStihl (Mar 27, 2013)

Gologit said:


> That's LOGGERS...foresters have croissants and cappuchino at some place with real linen tablecloths and snooty waiters.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll go stand in the corner now, with my Donettos and 7-11 coffee, and try to look contrite.



I don't know Bob personally, but "contrite" sounds just about right:biggrin:
The foresters taking the time to share their experiences with our young Marine makes me proud to be an AS member.


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## mitch95100 (Mar 28, 2013)

I got my ears peeled and my mouth zipped... im looking at this field also, ill be lurking

Sent from me to you using my fingers


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 28, 2013)

Some good advice in this thread

As a forester I'll say my job's awesome. I get to spend plenty of time out in the bush (probably spent ~3 days in the office the past 2 weeks) and there's plenty of variety in the job. Can't complain about the ute and phone that come with the job either, although the pager and Easter standby aren't so flash.


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## Gologit (Mar 28, 2013)

Matt59 said:


> Thanks to everyone for the advice. I've found a lot of good information on here lately and I can tell the folks here really know what they're talking about.



OlympicYJ would be a good one to listen to also. He's going through forestry school right now and he could give you some insight about that.


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## hardpan (Mar 28, 2013)

Matt
I sense you are not 100% dedicated to the school route. I am not a forester, nor have I ever known one but if I had it to do over I would likely consider that direction as for the past 50 years it is the place I most want to be and work. I was an engineering student but did not finish because I needed money, a job. That was 40 years ago and since then I have passed through many different, sometimes miserable jobs and made some mistakes I'm ashamed of but the biggest mistake of my life was not finishing school. For you today, school is job 1. Don't find yourself someday looking for a time machine.


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## slowp (Mar 28, 2013)

The Forest Service has a program for students. The acronym changes, so I won't try to do it. Maybe they changed and call it an internship? You might want to check on it. I don't know if they pay any tuition, but they will hire you during the summers and then you are kind of sort of guaranteed a permanent position somewhere--you won't have a choice of the location.

You'll also get veteran hiring preference. 

However, the Forest Service is a HUGE bureauocracy, with all the good and the bad that comes with that.


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## Matt59 (Mar 28, 2013)

hardpan said:


> Matt
> I sense you are not 100% dedicated to the school route. I am not a forester, nor have I ever known one but if I had it to do over I would likely consider that direction as for the past 50 years it is the place I most want to be and work. I was an engineering student but did not finish because I needed money, a job. That was 40 years ago and since then I have passed through many different, sometimes miserable jobs and made some mistakes I'm ashamed of but the biggest mistake of my life was not finishing school. For you today, school is job 1. Don't find yourself someday looking for a time machine.



I understand. I'm not quitting. I do have to remind myself, when I start wishing I could go out and work instead of go to school, that school is prep for my future and if I quit I'm just setting myself up for failure.


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## Matt59 (Mar 28, 2013)

slowp said:


> The Forest Service has a program for students. The acronym changes, so I won't try to do it. Maybe they changed and call it an internship? You might want to check on it. I don't know if they pay any tuition, but they will hire you during the summers and then you are kind of sort of guaranteed a permanent position somewhere--you won't have a choice of the location.
> 
> You'll also get veteran hiring preference.
> 
> However, the Forest Service is a HUGE bureauocracy, with all the good and the bad that comes with that.



I applied for a temporary Forestry Technician (Trails) job in NC for the summer. This was about 2 months ago, on usajobs.gov. The Forest Service recieved my application, resume, and the documents I had to send in for claiming veteran's preferance, but I haven't heard anything since then. I'm guessing that the FS is cutting a lot of temp/seasonal jobs due to budget cuts and that may affect my chance of getting hired.

But, do you think it would be a good idea to contact the FS or the actual park I applied to work in, to at least show that I care about getting the job or to get my name in there?
I'm aware of the basics of the Federal hiring process vs. private sector hiring process. If I don't get this job, it's not a big deal; I've applied to several more non-government jobs. It would be good to get a little experience working with the FS though.


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## Gologit (Mar 28, 2013)

Matt59 said:


> I understand. I'm not quitting. I do have to remind myself, when I start wishing I could go out and work instead of go to school, that school is prep for my future and if I quit I'm just setting myself up for failure.



Well, maybe not _failure_, but your choices will sure be limited without an education. You're going about it the right way.

Without an education you might get stuck with being a logger.  I tried going to school after I got out of the Army but I had kids to feed and there was plenty of work for a faller if you knew what you were doing.

Most of the guys I started out with were either dead or crippled by the time they were in their fifties. Logging is very unforgiving. Take a look around, you see a lot more old and active foresters than you do old and active loggers.

I liked logging and I still do but if I had it to do all over again...well, I'll spare you any more "old guy lectures". 

Best of luck to you.


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## Matt59 (Mar 28, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Well, maybe not _failure_, but your choices will sure be limited without an education. You're going about it the right way.
> 
> Without an education you might get stuck with being a logger.  I tried going to school after I got out of the Army but I had kids to feed and there was plenty of work for a faller if you knew what you were doing.
> 
> ...



Failure wasn't the right word. Limited, as you put it, is right. 

I don't mind the "old guy lectures." I'm only 23, but I like to think that I'm at least smart enough to listen to the "old guys" and learn from their experience and advice. I'm still full of p*ss and vinegar and a bit hard headed but I'm learning to think about the future instead of the right now. 

Thanks again for all the advice in this thread. This has been really helpful and has helped me recharge and look at school differently, too. 
Anyway, I'm off to class now--Natural Science of the Chesepeake Bay, and Advanced Framing tonight (building rooves tonight!).


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## stltreedr (Mar 28, 2013)

*From the utility forester side*

You will spend less time enjoying the great outdoors than you think, and more time behind the desk polishing budget numbers, filling out reports, talking to the boss, customers, contractors. 
I have been working for the utility for 10 years now. I'm sure it varies from place to place, but we take care of all aspects of maintaining utiity ROW's...Except for the part of actually getting your hands dirty. It sounds to me like you want to actually WORK. I started my own business for that part, work at the utility to pay the bills.

It's a good thing to be over educated...because you won't be young forever. I see some of these guys retiring at 60 from working in trees, and they are all but shot. 

Being the first in my family to earn a degree, I am a huge advocate of higher education, do as much as you can and then go back for more. You will never regret earning a degree and noone can take it from you.


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 28, 2013)

First off. Thank you for your service!!!

Bob thanks for the kudos, I'm a bit late to the party so most of what I'm gonna be contributing are some probably not so hilarious quips and observations as allot of the major stuff has been covered.



Gologit said:


> That's LOGGERS...foresters have croissants and cappuchino at some place with real linen tablecloths and snooty waiters.
> 
> 
> I'll go stand in the corner now, with my Donettos and 7-11 coffee, and try to look contrite.



Hey 7-11 works but Safeway has better selection.... I won't have the luxury of any of that as I found out yesterday I will be in Beaver just north of Forks instead of Port Angeles. Oh well I'm still happy and less distractions to blow money on. Be right by the mill/office on Lake Pleasant :msp_biggrin:



trx250r180 said:


> ever have a logger burger ?



Yupp, High School had the logger burger and I've sampled a few logger burgers from other places around.... Camp 18 is the Shizzle...



slowp said:


> If you bake cookies and bribe the loggers, they will sometimes promise and keep the promise not to harass the extremely young men who want to see if they want to work as foresters and are out for the day following along. Cookies also encourage good work, and act as a reward for pulling the forester's pickup out of the snowy or muddy or dry ditch.
> 
> One of the best parts of working on the logging end is that you meet some unique and eccentric characters.
> Those are getting to be rare and endangered.
> ...



Snoose works good too! And you don't have to chew either. Lol If you fight fire Buy many logs of chew and sell it by the can for triple the amount or more. Guys gotta have their fix on a fire and never bring enough so my buddies tell me.

Slowp is right though. If you're working with loggers you have to earn their respect. This doesn't mean through bribery (although cookies would be awesome, hell they could prob bribe me with cookies if they screwed up a log) but just doing your job fairly and humbly as a young guy will get that respect. 

Ok so for school. If you go the two year route and you know which 4yr you want to go to. Take classes that you know will transfer. Also take your Biology (at least first class for second you should really go with botony which may only be able to get at the 4yr), Chem, Physics, Math, and English. Get the AA as usually if you just transfer with credits you will still have to do a bunch of BS classes at the 4yr. Get it out of the way in CC by getting an AA and that should meet the core requirements of the 4yr degree. Sometimes if you just transfer individual credits they won't except them as equivilant except fo higher level science classes like chem. So by getting the AA they accept the whole thing. Then by having all the bio and chem and such as extra with your AA you will be going to strait degree specific courses. This is ultimately cheaper and quicker/easier in the long run.

Also here's a tip. Do a minor in a related field. This can help broaden the scope of jobs you qualify for or like me make you even more qualified for a specific one. I'm getting a BS in Forest Resources with a minor in Forest Operations. I wan't to work specifically as an operations forester so this is why I took this route. Folks like madhatte are generalists. Meaning they do it all. Folks like slowp and I are more specialized and fulfill a certain niche job. The different systems have their merits and downfalls that I won't get into but I will say go general on your education until you either gain the experience to know what specialty you may want to move towards or until you get your degree and start working and then discover your niche... everyone has one even if they are a generalist.

Oh and do internships!!! Experience before you finish school is key!

My 2 cent's if someone mentioned something I just did I apologize. I sort of just sped read through the thread.

Good luck and stick with it. I hear ya on getting tired of school. I'm burnt out and senioritis is kicking in even though I have a yr and a semester left. lol

Best wishes,

Wes

Oh and stick around. Lot's of good knowledge to be had here!!


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## madhatte (Mar 28, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> Snoose works good too! And you don't have to chew either. Lol If you fight fire Buy many logs of chew and sell it by the can for triple the amount or more. Guys gotta have their fix on a fire and never bring enough so my buddies tell me.



100% solid advice; worked on the boat, too, for the same reasons. 



OlympicYJ said:


> So by getting the AA they accept the whole thing. Then by having all the bio and chem and such as extra with your AA you will be going to strait degree specific courses. This is ultimately cheaper and quicker/easier in the long run.



That's really what I meant to say; thanks for the clarification. This is by far the most cost-effective way I know of to get an education that will serve you in the woods.



OlympicYJ said:


> Also here's a tip. Do a minor in a related field.



Now, as a Generalist (can't argue with that term at all), I have to recommend the exact opposite. I did my minor in Photography. Turns out an Arts background has helped me quite a lot -- my maps, especially, are much more useful than many made by others I work with. Simple, fundamental stuff like the Color Wheel will not generally be addressed in a Science or Technology curriculum. It's very important in communication. My Navy experience in Engineering has also been useful -- working with pumps and valves is pretty easy step-by-step, but understanding systems schematically means learning new systems is much easier. My training has been so diverse that it wouldn't make sense as an actual career path, but has worked well for me, even if only by dumb luck. Also, don't discount the importance of hobbies. They serve a bunch of functions, but the two most important, I think, are these: they give you an alternate world to live in when you're not at work, which helps keep things from getting tedious, and they can occasionally offer supplementary skills that come in handy at unexpected times. Follow your instincts -- you know yourself best. 



OlympicYJ said:


> Oh and do internships!!! Experience before you finish school is key!



ABSOLUTELY. I did an internship with Weyerhaeuser in '95 which really solidified my idea that "The Woods" was where I wanted to work. I hadn't figured out exactly which agency or role I wanted to pursue, but it's rare for anybody to know that before they actually "get there".


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## wowzers (Mar 28, 2013)

I'll respond a little later but my path so far has been Marines>TechSchool>Park Service>Four Year School>Logger>Industry Forester.


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 28, 2013)

You are right nate! I should have said the minor doesn't have to be related but something that could be applicable to your career. I thought about using you as an example as to your niche is def GIS and related areas, or that's what it seems lol

Your experience (which internships get you and early career experience) defines your career later in life. I don't know if that's the best way to articulate it but what hatte has said is basically the same.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned but forester duties as far as generalists and silvicutural foresters changes with the seasons as there are projects that go by season. Slash burning, planting, roadside spray, etc. Working as a specialist it tends to be the same over and over sometimes and catastrophic events such as heavy rain events will liven things up because your in oh shate mode trying to minimize sediment delivery. Or any applicable oh shate moment. lol

I hear ya on the internship thing. I knew I wanted to work in forestry but doing my first internship solidified it 100% and after that I was able to identify where I wanted to specialize in.

Wes


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## dhskier2 (Mar 28, 2013)

slowp said:


> The Forest Service has a program for students. The acronym changes, so I won't try to do it. Maybe they changed and call it an internship? You might want to check on it. I don't know if they pay any tuition, but they will hire you during the summers and then you are kind of sort of guaranteed a permanent position somewhere--you won't have a choice of the location.



Gone are SCEP, STEP, & HEP-C... Now it's just Pathways. And you can look for positions on USAjobs by adding "pathways" as a keyword to your search options.


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## Matt59 (Mar 29, 2013)

Wowzers- Looking forward to hearing from you. I have a few more vet friends in college with the same interests as me. Every time we get to having a few beers, the conversation always gets to "what job would you do right now if you weren't in school?" Seems like roughneck, logger, and bounty hunter always come up. A while ago I thought I thought about getting into a carpentry apprenticeship, but decided to take a few classes at CC to learn some skills instead. A few credits count as my elective, the others may not count for anything when I transfer and it may 'waste' GI Bill tuition, but I've had a real good time learning and building, and it breaks up the monotony of the class schedule.

Wow. Lots of good information here. 
I'm on track for the Gen.Ed AA right now but will sit down with an advsior before I actually declare a major next year. I haven't even thought about a minor yet but will definitely keep that in mind. Internships seem to be important across the board for any college grad, too. 
As far as what specialty I want, I'll keep my eyes and ears open and listen to you all talk about your different jobs to give me an idea about what I might like to do. 

By the way, all this talk about dip makes me want to crack open a can of fresh cope but I quit that little while ago and can't bear to get off the wagon!


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## madhatte (Mar 29, 2013)

dhskier2 said:


> Gone are SCEP, STEP, & HEP-C



We hired 80% of our seasonal crew through STEP the last 3 years. This year, yeah, it's pretty sketchy, but don't declare STEP "down for the count" just yet. It's a good program, a proven performer, and may survive.


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 29, 2013)

Matt59 said:


> Wowzers- Looking forward to hearing from you. I have a few more vet friends in college with the same interests as me. Every time we get to having a few beers, the conversation always gets to "what job would you do right now if you weren't in school?" Seems like roughneck, logger, and bounty hunter always come up. A while ago I thought I thought about getting into a carpentry apprenticeship, but decided to take a few classes at CC to learn some skills instead. A few credits count as my elective, the others may not count for anything when I transfer and it may 'waste' GI Bill tuition, but I've had a real good time learning and building, and it breaks up the monotony of the class schedule.
> 
> Wow. Lots of good information here.
> I'm on track for the Gen.Ed AA right now but will sit down with an advsior before I actually declare a major next year. I haven't even thought about a minor yet but will definitely keep that in mind. Internships seem to be important across the board for any college grad, too.
> ...



Sounds like you've got a good plan going! That's the way to do it. Things are just now starting to pick up a little. Should be some good posts in the upcoming months. I'll try the best I can to post up interesting operations stuff if I get any as I'm sure is the same for others.

Stay on the bandwagon for sure! I'm trying to slowly quit myself so I know what ya mean! I'll just enjoy one for ya here lol

Wes


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 29, 2013)

Whats the go with the 2 and four year degrees? I did a four year bachelors, the only option at uni here, and it covered all of the bases reasonably well. Is the two year education just the basics, or do you simply focus on one specific part of forestry?


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 29, 2013)

There are two options really. An AA is an Associates of Arts. Basicaly half a Bachelors of Arts. But yes an AA basically covers the first two years of A Bachelors degree. You can get an AAS or Associates of Applied Sciences in forestry otherwise known as a technical degree. A person such as myself that has one of these is known as a forest technician and is mostly now days only qualified for field type work as opposed to making actual management decisions. They were quite popular back before and after the 60's but I'd say 70's till now were falling in favor of 4 year Bachelors degrees in forest management.

For higher level jobs it's still a BS in forestry and to move way higher include an MBA in there. Tech degrees are becoming popular again as for field work people are realizing a Bachelors is overkill. If you have a Tech degree and a BS you are generally a more favorable hire because you have a better technical background than someone coming strait out of a 4yr degree program start to finish.

Wes


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 29, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> There are two options really. An AA is an Associates of Arts. Basicaly half a Bachelors of Arts. But yes an AA basically covers the first two years of A Bachelors degree. You can get an AAS or Associates of Applied Sciences in forestry otherwise known as a technical degree. A person such as myself that has one of these is known as a forest technician and is mostly now days only qualified for field type work as opposed to making actual management decisions. They were quite popular back before and after the 60's but I'd say 70's till now were falling in favor of 4 year Bachelors degrees in forest management.
> 
> For higher level jobs it's still a BS in forestry and to move way higher include an MBA in there. Tech degrees are becoming popular again as for field work people are realizing a Bachelors is overkill. If you have a Tech degree and a BS you are generally a more favorable hire because you have a better technical background than someone coming strait out of a 4yr degree program start to finish.
> 
> Wes




Thanks for that.
From what you've said there I get the impression you can go through the four year degree with no real world experience required, which seems less than desirable from an employers perspective.
The degree I did is a BForSc, as opposed to a regular 3 year BSc. Because it's a 'professional' degree, and the school of Forestry was under the umbrella of the College of Engineering we had to do a minimum of 90 days work experience within the industry as a requirement to graduate. I reckon it was one of the most important parts of the course.


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 29, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> First off. Thank you for your service!!!
> 
> Bob thanks for the kudos, I'm a bit late to the party so most of what I'm gonna be contributing are some probably not so hilarious quips and observations as allot of the major stuff has been covered.
> 
> ...



you will be driving right by my work by the sounds of it ,small world


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 29, 2013)

StihlKiwi said:


> Thanks for that.
> From what you've said there I get the impression you can go through the four year degree with no real world experience required, which seems less than desirable from an employers perspective.
> The degree I did is a BForSc, as opposed to a regular 3 year BSc. Because it's a 'professional' degree, and the school of Forestry was under the umbrella of the College of Engineering we had to do a minimum of 90 days work experience within the industry as a requirement to graduate. I reckon it was one of the most important parts of the course.



No problem! Now that would be awesome if 4yrs here did that! I had to do 250 hrs minimum for my 2yr tech degree. After this summer I'll have 4 internships under my belt so theoretically a full years worth of experience by the time I graduate.



trx250r180 said:


> you will be driving right by my work by the sounds of it ,small world



Well it might be even smaller than you think cause I'ma guess that you work in the Beaver mill?


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 29, 2013)

OlympicYJ said:


> No problem! Now that would be awesome if 4yrs here did that! I had to do 250 hrs minimum for my 2yr tech degree. After this summer I'll have 4 internships under my belt so theoretically a full years worth of experience by the time I graduate.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it might be even smaller than you think cause I'ma guess that you work in the Beaver mill?



,i actually have an auto salvage yard west of port angeles ,you will be driving right by my place on 101 on your way to beaver


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 29, 2013)

Ah gotcha. Was thinkin farther south! I might have to drop by and peruse through! 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Twindad (Mar 31, 2013)

I'm not sure that I have a lot of new information to add that hasn't been covered yet, but I'll throw my two cents in anyway. First of all, thank you for you service to our nation. It definitely sounds as if you have your priorities straight. Finish your education and gain as much and as diverse experience as you can. Any skills you can pick up now may prove valuable down the road.
I'm a forester on the land management side, and I love my job. I can honestly say that there are very few times when I'm doing the same thing on two consecutive days. Prescribed fire, timber cruising, sale admin, reforestation, rec development, wildlife habitat improvement, research, educational tours, and far too much more to list here. There's office work involved, but I usually have the flexibility to do it during crappy weather. 
I got into forestry because I love the outdoors. I also took advantage of the GI Bill and it got me where I am today. Good luck.


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## Matt59 (Mar 31, 2013)

Twindad said:


> First of all, thank you for you service to our nation.



Thank you for yours as well.


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## wowzers (Mar 31, 2013)

If I was you I would look at Haywood Community College in Western NC. If you're unable to relocate I believe there is another tech school in Allegheny MD. However Haywood is SAF accredited which makes a quite a bit of difference when you get out in job land. Unfortunately as much as it pains me to say it, I would then look at finishing your bachelors at a four year school. Most any private company now is requiring a BS. It will definitely suck for you because tech school will put you far ahead of most junior level bachelors student but it will be worth it in the end. I 

I'm not sure of your desired career direction but I'll echo the statement that internships will define your career direction. I came out west with the idea of getting on a wildland fire crew. My western career path couldn't be farther from that. I still get out to the woods a fair bit, but I also spend an incredible time screwing around on some sort of excel spreadsheet. I will also say that there are only a few days (single digit temps and chest deep snow) that I don't miss logging!

If you have any questions shoot me a PM.


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## Matt59 (Apr 1, 2013)

Wowzers-

I'm going to stay in community college here in MD then transfer to a 4-year for the bachelor's degree. It seems like the best path for me right now. As for careers or specialties, I really only know as much as the helpful people on here have told me, so I'll keep reading and keep working. I will definitely keep on the lookout for internships, too.


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## Gologit (Apr 1, 2013)

Matt59 said:


> Wowzers-
> 
> I'm going to stay in community college here in MD then transfer to a 4-year for the bachelor's degree. It seems like the best path for me right now. As for careers or specialties, I really only know as much as the helpful people on here have told me, so I'll keep reading and keep working. I will definitely keep on the lookout for internships, too.



I don't know how far you'd be willing to travel but Sierra Pacific Industries has internships every summer. 2013 is already staffed but it might be something for you to keep in mind.
They have almost 2 million acres of timber land in California alone plus holdings in other states.


Sierra Pacific Industries: Growing Forests for Our Future


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## wowzers (Apr 1, 2013)

Gologit said:


> I don't know how far you'd be willing to travel but Sierra Pacific Industries has internships every summer. 2013 is already staffed but it might be something for you to keep in mind.
> They have almost 2 million acres of timber land in California alone plus holdings in other states.
> 
> 
> Sierra Pacific Industries: Growing Forests for Our Future



They hire a pile of people every year. In fact I managed to snag one of their interns for our program this coming season.


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## Matt59 (Apr 1, 2013)

hI've been checking out their page. Looks like they have a summer employment opportunity for an assistant wildlife biologist, but it requires college credits in bio, forestry, etc. The wildland fire jobs I was looking at on usajobs also required the same thing, or previous experience. I just landed a summer job with a tree service in NC, though. I'd love to move out west...but a certain young lady has me tied down out here. It's on my "plan b" though, just don't tell her that.


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## Gologit (Apr 1, 2013)

Matt59 said:


> hI've been checking out their page. Looks like they have a summer employment opportunity for an assistant wildlife biologist, but it requires college credits in bio, forestry, etc. The wildland fire jobs I was looking at on usajobs also required the same thing, or previous experience. I just landed a summer job with a tree service in NC, though. I'd love to move out west...but a certain young lady has me tied down out here. It's on my "plan b" though, just don't tell her that.



Okay, we'll keep quiet. :msp_biggrin: SPI usually starts listing their summer jobs and internships well before the first of the year that they're hiring for.


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## Matt59 (Apr 1, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Okay, we'll keep quiet. :msp_biggrin: SPI usually starts listing their summer jobs and internships well before the first of the year that they're hiring for.



If I ever catch her on ArboristSite, there will also be pigs with wings and the devil eating an ice cream cone.

Looks like most of these internships out there require college credits in the field. So they're a no-go for me right now but something to do in 3 years or so.

Anyone on here familiar with the Forest Service's hiring process? Several months ago I applied for a temporary Forestry Tech (Trails) job. I got a message that said my application and documents were recieved, but I haven't heard anything since then. Just wondering if I'm not going to get that job or if budget cuts and red tape are to blame.


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## slowp (Apr 1, 2013)

A phone call to where you applied may be in order.


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## Matt59 (Apr 1, 2013)

slowp said:


> A phone call to where you applied may be in order.



Gotcha. Now that I think about it, that would have been a good thing to do a month ago at least...Oh well. I'll give them a call tomorrow to check on the status of my application. It won't hurt even though I got this other job today.


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## OlympicYJ (Apr 2, 2013)

wowzers said:


> They hire a pile of people every year. In fact I managed to snag one of their interns for our program this coming season.



Well you guys snagged two SPI interns! lol Both are good guys. Know one a lil better than the other. We need to get together sometime. Next time I'm up your way I'll have to give ya a call and see if you're home. Got that internship on the west side I told ya about.



Matt59 said:


> If I ever catch her on ArboristSite, there will also be pigs with wings and the devil eating an ice cream cone.
> 
> Looks like most of these internships out there require college credits in the field. So they're a no-go for me right now but something to do in 3 years or so.



Not necessarily. Most just require that you are at the very least enrolled in a forestry program. They do however prefer that you do have some forestry related classes.


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