# My kickback experience...



## EdenT

Hiya all,
haven't been on here for a few years, but thought I might share my recent kickback experience as a possible learning experience for others.

Prior to this I have experienced minor kickbacks. The sort you can control simply by armstrength. The sort that lull you into beleiving you have been gifted with the strength and reaction speed to control any kickback. Boy was I wrong.

I was in an EWP at about 5 metres, removing some cypresses (12) lining a driveway. We only had 8 hours to do the job so I was going as fast as I could to maintain a tree per 40mins pace. Each tree should really have been done in an hour. In the basket I was using a 200t to remove branches and then a 460 to block down to about 2m (6') so the ground crew could fell and deal with the trunks.

I was on to my 5th tree when the accident happened and was fairly hot and breathless by this time. Plan was to finish this tree and then have smoko. I had one branch to go and it had two smaller branches coming off it quite close together, so it formed a letter 'K' shape. At that point my 200 ran out of petrol so rather than going down and filling it up I decided to use the 460 to knock of these last branches. I start it, move towards the lower leg of the 'K', when I suddenly hear this ripping sound, accompanied by a sickening pain in my right forearm. I look at my forearm which is wide open with all the muscles and tendons exposed. Somewhat dazed and wondering where my chainsaw has got to I look up to see it cartwheeling away about a metre in front and above me. I watch it plummet to the ground then grab my arm and start heading down myself. My crew wraps me up and off we go to hospital for a heap of drugs and sewing.

What actually happened was as the chainsaw touched the lower branch, it pulled forward bringing the kickback quadrant into contact with the upper leg of the 'K'. This accelerated it upwards where the kickback quadrant contacted the primary branch accelerating it still more. It is important to understand that the chainsaw rotates, not about your elbow as a minor kickback might lead you to think, but about it's own drive sprocket. Also a 460 at full revs with a double kickback rotates insanely fast. Far too quick for you to see, let alone react to. The force of the handle being yanked out of my hand caused muscle injuries in my kneck and shoulder that still give me trouble months later. The main problem is that the bar and chain is suddenly and violently where the handle used to be.

Fortunately, despite the multitude of bad decisions and errors I made, I did at least have a good offline cutting stance and that probably saved me from a potentially fatal injury. The other thing I had in my favour was a well maintained saw with an operative brake. The inertia brake kicked in so by the time the saw hit my arm it was more like an axe blow and so I got to keep my arm.

Anyhow I actually went back to work 3 days later so in the scheme of things I got off pretty lightly. It knocked my confidence a whole heap and things are still fairly sore as a result of the accident. I certainly learned a few lessons from the experience, hope you can too. 

Stay Safe


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## lone wolf

EdenT said:


> Hiya all,
> haven't been on here for a few years, but thought I might share my recent kickback experience as a possible learning experience for others.
> 
> Prior to this I have experienced minor kickbacks. The sort you can control simply by armstrength. The sort that lull you into beleiving you have been gifted with the strength and reaction speed to control any kickback. Boy was I wrong.
> 
> I was in an EWP at about 5 metres, removing some cypresses (12) lining a driveway. We only had 8 hours to do the job so I was going as fast as I could to maintain a tree per 40mins pace. Each tree should really have been done in an hour. In the basket I was using a 200t to remove branches and then a 460 to block down to about 2m (6') so the ground crew could fell and deal with the trunks.
> 
> I was on to my 5th tree when the accident happened and was fairly hot and breathless by this time. Plan was to finish this tree and then have smoko. I had one branch to go and it had two smaller branches coming off it quite close together, so it formed a letter 'K' shape. At that point my 200 ran out of petrol so rather than going down and filling it up I decided to use the 460 to knock of these last branches. I start it, move towards the lower leg of the 'K', when I suddenly hear this ripping sound, accompanied by a sickening pain in my right forearm. I look at my forearm which is wide open with all the muscles and tendons exposed. Somewhat dazed and wondering where my chainsaw has got to I look up to see it cartwheeling away about a metre in front and above me. I watch it plummet to the ground then grab my arm and start heading down myself. My crew wraps me up and off we go to hospital for a heap of drugs and sewing.
> 
> What actually happened was as the chainsaw touched the lower branch, it pulled forward bringing the kickback quadrant into contact with the upper leg of the 'K'. This accelerated it upwards where the kickback quadrant contacted the primary branch accelerating it still more. It is important to understand that the chainsaw rotates, not about your elbow as a minor kickback might lead you to think, but about it's own drive sprocket. Also a 460 at full revs with a double kickback rotates insanely fast. Far too quick for you to see, let alone react to. The force of the handle being yanked out of my hand caused muscle injuries in my kneck and shoulder that still give me trouble months later. The main problem is that the bar and chain is suddenly and violently where the handle used to be.
> 
> Fortunately, despite the multitude of bad decisions and errors I made, I did at least have a good offline cutting stance and that probably saved me from a potentially fatal injury. The other thing I had in my favour was a well maintained saw with an operative brake. The inertia brake kicked in so by the time the saw hit my arm it was more like an axe blow and so I got to keep my arm.
> 
> Anyhow I actually went back to work 3 days later so in the scheme of things I got off pretty lightly. It knocked my confidence a whole heap and things are still fairly sore as a result of the accident. I certainly learned a few lessons from the experience, hope you can too.
> 
> Stay Safe


Wow, do you think being tired and in a rush caused this? Heal well friend.


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## gary courtney

hope your doing good.makes me squirm


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## derwoodii

EdenT said:


> Hiya all,
> haven't been on here for a few years, but thought I might share my recent kickback experience as a possible learning experience for others.
> 
> Prior to this I have experienced minor kickbacks. The sort you can control simply by armstrength. The sort that lull you into beleiving you have been gifted with the strength and reaction speed to control any kickback. Boy was I wrong.
> 
> I was in an EWP at about 5 metres, removing some cypresses (12) lining a driveway. We only had 8 hours to do the job so I was going as fast as I could to maintain a tree per 40mins pace. Each tree should really have been done in an hour. In the basket I was using a 200t to remove branches and then a 460 to block down to about 2m (6') so the ground crew could fell and deal with the trunks.
> 
> I was on to my 5th tree when the accident happened and was fairly hot and breathless by this time. Plan was to finish this tree and then have smoko. I had one branch to go and it had two smaller branches coming off it quite close together, so it formed a letter 'K' shape. At that point my 200 ran out of petrol so rather than going down and filling it up I decided to use the 460 to knock of these last branches. I start it, move towards the lower leg of the 'K', when I suddenly hear this ripping sound, accompanied by a sickening pain in my right forearm. I look at my forearm which is wide open with all the muscles and tendons exposed. Somewhat dazed and wondering where my chainsaw has got to I look up to see it cartwheeling away about a metre in front and above me. I watch it plummet to the ground then grab my arm and start heading down myself. My crew wraps me up and off we go to hospital for a heap of drugs and sewing.
> 
> What actually happened was as the chainsaw touched the lower branch, it pulled forward bringing the kickback quadrant into contact with the upper leg of the 'K'. This accelerated it upwards where the kickback quadrant contacted the primary branch accelerating it still more. It is important to understand that the chainsaw rotates, not about your elbow as a minor kickback might lead you to think, but about it's own drive sprocket. Also a 460 at full revs with a double kickback rotates insanely fast. Far too quick for you to see, let alone react to. The force of the handle being yanked out of my hand caused muscle injuries in my kneck and shoulder that still give me trouble months later. The main problem is that the bar and chain is suddenly and violently where the handle used to be.
> 
> Fortunately, despite the multitude of bad decisions and errors I made, I did at least have a good offline cutting stance and that probably saved me from a potentially fatal injury. The other thing I had in my favour was a well maintained saw with an operative brake. The inertia brake kicked in so by the time the saw hit my arm it was more like an axe blow and so I got to keep my arm.
> 
> Anyhow I actually went back to work 3 days later so in the scheme of things I got off pretty lightly. It knocked my confidence a whole heap and things are still fairly sore as a result of the accident. I certainly learned a few lessons from the experience, hope you can too.
> 
> Stay Safe



crikey fast an't it,,, i had a bar come into my head but the auto inertia brake saved me pretty face,,,  good the hear your ok and nice to see you back about edent the place is much the same apart from site look changes due to web hackers


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## Scott Fitzner

It's good to know you are back at work. Thanks for sharing! I'll think about your post the next time I start a saw.


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## Fubar

+1 for the genius who invented the life and limb saving chain brake ..


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## MontanaResident

Fubar said:


> +1 for the genius who invented the life and limb saving chain brake ..


 
Ditto+ on the chain brake.

When **** happens it happens fast. Glad this wasn't as bad as it could have been.


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## greg storms

thanks for sharing. Heal well. I learned much from your experience!


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## Brushwacker

Ya, it makes me squirm hearing your accident also. Glad for you it wasn't worse and you are still going. 
I will try to learn from your hard lesson. Thanks for sharing.


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## New Hampster

Glad to hear you're relatively ok and will heal. It's like a pitcher taking a fast ball to the side of the head. It takes a lot of time to get over that mentally.
Every accident I ever had was the result of rushing. Not working within my own time comfort and pace. Allowing a boss to guilt, shame and pressure me into rushing or
having the mental frame of getting everything completed in the standard/rigid 8 hour day. Time is an @$$hole and it hates you. 
I am no longer a slave to the clock and refuse to be. The only time I rush, is if there's fire or a dog chasing me. To me this is another reminder of my resolve.
I actually find I get more done if I don't cave in to pressure, worry and rushing. 
Take YOUR time, not someone else's. Rushing is a dead man's game.

By the way, what happened to your 460?


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## skipster

I'm a beginner,and just overcoming my initial fear of saws, but I have begun to read about incidents like yours, to keep myself wary.
I have friends who have become a little overconfident with their chainsaws,and i dont want to fall into that trap.
thanks for posting this kind of thing.


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## Odog

Man Sh&$ happens in a hurry, I took one to the face about 11 years ago, cut half my nose off. I was notching a log and the piece I was cutting broke out causing a quick violent kickback. The saw was only 4 days old and the inertia break didn't activate, the ER doc told me he didn't know where to even start, but a plastic surgeon cut a patch out of my cheek and grafted it in. Luckily my nose had been broken enough times that the cartalige had grown with a curve, so he shaved a piece of that to shape my new nostril. I was back at work a week later. Ive got a pretty good scar, but I'm still as handsome as ever.


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## rob*wood-cutta

skipster said:


> I'm a beginner,and just overcoming my initial fear of saws, but I have begun to read about incidents like yours, to keep myself wary.
> I have friends who have become a little overconfident with their chainsaws,and i dont want to fall into that trap.
> thanks for posting this kind of thing.


never become complacent. No matter how small of a saw or how comfortable you get with it. I'm a young guy but I've learned that the profession that I'm in is a very dangerous one. And these chains songs are absolute monsters.


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## Topbuilder

"Time is an @$$hole and it hates you. 
I am no longer a slave to the clock and refuse to be. The only time I rush, is if there's fire or a dog chasing me."

Nice quote. Being self employed there is still an unseen force pushing me to fight time, for no good reason. 
Thanks to OP.


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## PhilKawasakiuser

I am now finished wondering if I made the right decision spending the 20 dollars to fix the chain break on my very usable Husqvarna 45 mid sized homeowners saw. Ive never had a hard kickback and have only gotten relatively dangerously stuck in a tree once 30 ft off the ground doing something I probably had little to no business doing on a mistletoe infested mesquite tree. I used a small top handled saw and locked the break before going up. It didn't feel to stupid since I was easily able to restart it without heading back down. A neighbor of mine dropped his brand new MS250 which was a replacement for his eager beaver he got sick of looking for parts for. I wonder what the store thought when they saw a saw that wasn't even done being broken in broken?


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## PhilKawasakiuser

Probably they thought another customer needing a saw... again


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## unclemoustache

OK, so I have a technical question here - It's my understanding that the brake stops the chain as soon as the saw begins to rotate in a kickback, but it sounds like you got something of a cut as well as the 'axe blow.' Does it take a bit of time for the chain to stop, or does the brake just not work that quickly?

I've never had any kickback incident. I'd like to say that it's because I'm always careful, but that just wouldn't be true.  Still, I hope I manage to keep that record for many years to come.


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## GMwoodchuck

unclemoustache said:


> OK, so I have a technical question here - It's my understanding that the brake stops the chain as soon as the saw begins to rotate in a kickback, but it sounds like you got something of a cut as well as the 'axe blow.' Does it take a bit of time for the chain to stop, or does the brake just not work that quickly?
> 
> I've never had any kickback incident. I'd like to say that it's because I'm always careful, but that just wouldn't be true.  Still, I hope I manage to keep that record for many years to come.



First of all let me start by thanking the OP for sharing his kickback accident with us. As he stated , I also have operated on the assumption that I was blessed with cat like reflexes and I could control any saw in a kickback situation even after my own experiences.

Uncle, The chainsaw brake engages only when the saw rotates up far enough for the brake handle to contact the operators wrist and to move it forward. So if the "danger zone" of the bar is contacted i.e.. (the top half of the bar nose) the saw wants to usually push back and up to the left, the chain brake stops the chain instantly but the kinetic energy of the spinning chain doesn't just stop, it then transfers to the brake/clutch causing the saw to actually move toward the user even faster pivoting in the hand that is gripping the top handle, that would cause the ax type blow that the OP described. I hope this helped. Be safe


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## unclemoustache

I see. That makes sense. Thanks.


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## Odog

My kickback happened so quickly that I don't know what happened. All I know for sure is the chain kept rotating and hooked my nostril and ripped and the right side was ripped off.


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## norcalian

Brushwacker said:


> Ya, it makes me squirm hearing your accident also. Glad for you it wasn't worse and you are still going.
> I will try to learn from your hard lesson. Thanks for sharing.


Slow is smooth smooth is fast. Work efficiently and carefully!


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## norcalian

lone wolf said:


> Wow, do you think being tired and in a rush caused this? Heal well friend.


 If it "had" to be done in 8 hours they would of"had" to pay for two climbers and a safe worksite.


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## SuperGreg

Hey all, newbie here. I realize this thread is a bit old, but if the OP is still around I'm curious what you were wearing at the time? I've seen chaps (and plan on buying some) but are there some that cover the arms as well?


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## In4apenny

You can get cut resistant sleeves. Resistant being the operative word, they are not cut proof. They're also extremely hot in the summer months so I only wear them in cold weather. Shame on me.


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## rarefish383

SuperGreg said:


> Hey all, newbie here. I realize this thread is a bit old, but if the OP is still around I'm curious what you were wearing at the time? I've seen chaps (and plan on buying some) but are there some that cover the arms as well?


Greg, the best safety gear, is safe work methods and knowledge. We can recommend a lot of gear, but there reaches a point where you would look like a medieval knight with so much gear on you can't work in a safe manner. Protecting major arteries is always a good thing. In most dangerous job situations it's the rookie and the old guy that gets complacent that get hurt. In the above case, learn from the info given. Don't work at a forced pace! Don't look for a magic gear. You read where a pro got bit on the arm, so you ask about gear to protect your arm from the bite. You didn't ask how to avoid the bite. Your a newbie here, are you a newbie to the industry also? Are you just a weekend firewood scrounger? We don't know enough about you to advise you in a proper manner. Safety gear is important. A safety based lifestyle is more important. Since you live out there where the BIG trees are, consider this. If a twig 2' long, the thickness of a pencil, falls 100 plus feet, and hits you in the head, it will probably come out the bottom of your boot. Live safe, be safe, Joe.


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## Ryan'smilling

unclemoustache said:


> OK, so I have a technical question here - It's my understanding that the brake stops the chain as soon as the saw begins to rotate in a kickback, but it sounds like you got something of a cut as well as the 'axe blow.' Does it take a bit of time for the chain to stop, or does the brake just not work that quickly?
> 
> I've never had any kickback incident. I'd like to say that it's because I'm always careful, but that just wouldn't be true.  Still, I hope I manage to keep that record for many years to come.






GMwoodchuck said:


> First of all let me start by thanking the OP for sharing his kickback accident with us. As he stated , I also have operated on the assumption that I was blessed with cat like reflexes and I could control any saw in a kickback situation even after my own experiences.
> 
> Uncle, The chainsaw brake engages only when the saw rotates up far enough for the brake handle to contact the operators wrist and to move it forward. So if the "danger zone" of the bar is contacted i.e.. (the top half of the bar nose) the saw wants to usually push back and up to the left, the chain brake stops the chain instantly but the kinetic energy of the spinning chain doesn't just stop, it then transfers to the brake/clutch causing the saw to actually move toward the user even faster pivoting in the hand that is gripping the top handle, that would cause the ax type blow that the OP described. I hope this helped. Be safe



Sorry to dredge up the past, but I followed a link to this thread and thought I'd add a response to the question here. I think the answer given above is incomplete in that it fails to mention that the chain brake is designed to activate EITHER from contacting the operator's left hand/wrist OR automatically in the case of kickback. The brake handle has enough inertia that when the saw accelerates so quickly as a result of the kickback the brake handle moves forward and the brake engages. The resistance of the brake handle to become in motion is supposed to trigger the brake. It's not a guarantee that it'll work, but that's how it's designed.


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## jomoco

Glad it wasn't far more serious Ryan.

I'd say the transition from 200t trimsaw to rear handle bucking saw, bit you.

Heal well n acclimate quicker next time!

Jomoco


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## Fubar

not that i am a expert {far from it } , but i have used chainsaws since i was 12 or 13 , i have done some pretty dangerous **** with a chainsaw , plunge cuts , back cuts, sawing with the tip , i test the brake before every session , but like said here it is not a guarantee it will work , i use to work for a lineman service clearing the right of way for power lines , even then i always took a few seconds to mull over what is going to happen when i plunge that saw into the log, i also did house construction and vinyl siding , i used a small top handle saw with no brake to do plunge cuts and gables with on a walk board 30 feet in the air , now i am retired and i take even more time , kickback is the law of physics at work , the more powerful the saw , the longer and wider the bar {especially at the tip } the more aggressive the chain cut = the more severe the kickback , and from what i have seen personally , even if the chain brake stops the chain , a properly sharpened chain it will still cut you to the bone , i was cutting logs for a saw mill with the then new chain brake equipped .046 and like said here i was sawing one second and then bam , the brake engaged , it ripped free of my right hand and pivoted straight back hitting me in the right hand , cutting through my thick leather glove and half way to the bone , remember the chain was stopped before it hit my hand , i am glad my face wasn't in the way , it made me more ever mindful about cutting from the side , i know its tiring and uncomfortable position to a already physically demanding job , i hate to think what would of happened without that chain brake .


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## PhilKawasakiuser

In4apenny said:


> You can get cut resistant sleeves. Resistant being the operative word, they are not cut proof. They're also extremely hot in the summer months so I only wear them in cold weather. Shame on me.


Here in the desert valley I consider all the months to be hot. I have actually have a pair that I used the food saver vacuum sealer to preserve along with the receipt, original packaging, which are still unused. I use my hardhat, hearing protection and mesh face forester brand face mask much more I've only had the chaps now a couple years and have had them on craigslist for sale for 4 months. I have never had a real hard kickback experience but witnessed a close family member about to possibly have one not long ago. He was about to begin cutting with one hand on the saws handle which was above his head and the bar nose pointing down. This ment his wrist was totally limp and his other hand was holding his cigarette. The chain was also put on backwards and completely worthless anyways. It was a corded electric chainsaw and the cord was about to trip him wrapped around his leg. Also the cord was hanging on what he planned to cut. I am glad I was there and able to unplug it and tell him what he was doing wrong before a accident occurred. He has no real experience other then getting the bar stuck and pinched within a couple minutes a decade ago. If you are around a newbie with the beginnings of Alzheimer symptoms please watch and give them advice or better yet do the cutting for them. On a completely different not or having to do with what I I know I have done and am still doing wrong I think I am supposed to lower the rakes occasionally on my used chains but honestly I have only done this once in my life and resharpened a chain a hundred time or more. I only resharpen by hand also which I feel is the most cost effective way for me since I am not working on a long one or in much of a hurry. Also I don't want to spend the money on a more sophisticated sharpener. I just got several stihl brand carbide chains and am wondering if anyone who has used these can clue me in on when to use them and when to use the normal chromed ones. Also about how to go about resharpening them when they actually get used. I have 2 for my pole saw and 3 for my 011avt 55dl. All together I paid $84.99 for the 5 of them after shipping. Never used carbide chains but the price was right as was timing.


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## PhilKawasakiuser

The more powerful the saw , the longer and wider the bar = the more severe the kickback , and from what i have seen personally , even if the chain brake stops the chain , a properly sharpened chain it will still cut you to the bone , i was cutting logs for a saw mill with the then new chain brake equipped .046 and like said here i was sawing one second and then bam , the brake engaged , it ripped free of my right hand and pivoted straight back hitting me in the right hand , cutting through my thick leather glove and half way to the bone , remember the chain was stopped before it hit my hand , i am glad my face wasn't in the way.
I dont think the length of the bar makes that big of a difference. Ive always heard that big saws with racing 9+ tooth drive sprockets and short bars are a extremely dangerous combination. I typically stand where the saw is not held straight infront of me but so my right or rear hand is further away from me that way if it does happen and I cant stop it hopefully it will rotate up and over without hitting me. I would think it rotates up and to the right during a kickback so being on the left which recommended by all the chainsaw manufacturers I know about I might just need to replace or resharpen the chain and maybe fix or replace the bar. Better then thousands of dental work and/or hospital bills or worse. Also don't know why the width of the bar matters since that part is where the bumpers or drivers sit and its the teeth and/or rakes that do the cutting. I don't know what .046 is in regards to but know what 404 has to do with. The lighter weight chainsaws id think should kickback faster and equally hard if not harder then a larger saw since there is less weight slowing it down at the rear. Technically the first chainsaw I owned was a top handle without a chain brake being a parts as is Stihl 015L that lasted me a good year and got the place back in descent shape along with a few other properties. I kinda miss that old thing. The flywheel was not in balance after a fin got sheared off(my fault probably giving it a early death. To many projects are first in line but maybe one day I will come across the parts and try replacing the fly, bearings and seals. I haven't replaced crankcase bearings yet.


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## PhilKawasakiuser

rarefish383 said:


> Greg, the best safety gear, is safe work methods and knowledge. We can recommend a lot of gear, but there reaches a point where you would look like a medieval knight with so much gear on you can't work in a safe manner. Protecting major arteries is always a good thing. In most dangerous job situations it's the rookie and the old guy that gets complacent that get hurt. In the above case, learn from the info given. Don't work at a forced pace! Don't look for a magic gear. You read where a pro got bit on the arm, so you ask about gear to protect your arm from the bite. You didn't ask how to avoid the bite. Your a newbie here, are you a newbie to the industry also? Are you just a weekend firewood scrounger? We don't know enough about you to advise you in a proper manner. Safety gear is important. A safety based lifestyle is more important. Since you live out there where the BIG trees are, consider this. If a twig 2' long, the thickness of a pencil, falls 100 plus feet, and hits you in the head, it will probably come out the bottom of your boot. Live safe, be safe, Joe.


IDK ive been told I have a unusually thick and hard head plus my boots have a full steal shank. At worse it would come out where the sun don't usually ever shine which would be bad news. I had to spend several extra hours on a small job on the property line which I was getting paid for by the neighbor, a 70+ and a retired computer engineer, making a easily accessible trail wide enough for me to pull the trash can down or medics to carry a strecher on which at the time was somewhat frustrating but when I was done and ended up getting another job and some other perks I realized it was actually time very well spent.


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## Orangeinthebarn

Hope you are doing well. Thanks for posting. We all need to think safety first. No job is so important that we have to work unsafely to get the job done. It doesn't matter how long it takes. I never use a 70cc above my shoulders.


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