# Rope vs Steel Skidder Cable



## Termite (Dec 5, 2012)

This is my first post in the logging forum. I am not a logger. Well only on my own property. I do have friends who log but don't use computers. Anyway, Slamm mentioned he used a rope instead of steel cable on his 540 skidder. Does anyone else use rope. I PM'ed Slamm but he's been off line. My logger friend is in need of new cable and was interested the practicality of rope.


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## epicklein22 (Dec 5, 2012)

You are thinking of Amsteel blue. Supposedly stronger than cable..... I don't know anyone around here using it.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 5, 2012)

the ahmsteel blue is the wire replacement I've most heard of... never used, probably never will, (mostly cause I'm stubborn, and cheap) 

Its apparently lighter, and just as strong as steel, and they say its got as much friction resistance? not sure how much of any of that I believe (well it is lighter). The problem I have with it is its really Gods ****** expensive, and I'm not convinced about its friction resistance, or how it would behave if caught in the fairleads or with some choker sliders hanging off it.


The guys who run it love it...


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## Slamm (Dec 6, 2012)

Amsteel Blue is the only thing I will use or would use and once you use it .............. even if you have to pay for it, you won't ever go back to steel cable, its just too hard on the machine and the operator to be an efficient choice. Steel is a cheap choice, but not the efficient choice, and efficiency is key to making money in logging, because you can't make your money faster and easier with the Amsteel.

For a first time buyer there is really no risk other than what's in your head about the Amsteel. Its stronger than steel cable, its so light it floats on water, it takes maybe 15 minutes with a pocket knife and some electrical tape to splice it. You never can ruin a whole length of rope with a break in the middle or fraying ............ there isn't any fraying of the rope to cut your body parts, blah, blah, blah.

Here is the CON:

Its initial cost is more than steel.

This offsets that CON:
Over its long lifetime, its cheaper than steel or at absolutely worst its the same price with regards to its life span and being able to splice it to a newer shorter length.

Its just a no brainer to anyone that uses it for pure cable skidding.

Sam


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## Slamm (Dec 6, 2012)

Termite said:


> This is my first post in the logging forum. I am not a logger. Well only on my own property. I do have friends who log but don't use computers. Anyway, Slamm mentioned he used a rope instead of steel cable on his 540 skidder. Does anyone else use rope. I PM'ed Slamm but he's been off line. My logger friend is in need of new cable and was interested the practicality of rope.



I pm'd you my phone number for your friend to call several days ago.

Sam


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## eagle nest (Dec 6, 2012)

Hi would anybody have any pictures of the amsteel blue rope spooled on to the winch on a cable machine that they are using. Thank you.


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## Slamm (Dec 6, 2012)

Read about it on this page of my thread:

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/147985-2.htm

Here is some more that I wrote:

Amsteel vs Swedged cable in the abrasion department only, would not win any battles, but if that was the only way you measured a skidder cable's ability to ease your life then I think you would be short changing the concept.

In a situation like a winch on a grapple skidder ...... like my 540B Grapple. I will probably always, use steel cable, because in the few instances that I do have to use the cable on the grapple skidder, the cable will be scraping against the grapple and it is not cost effictive per use.

But for a cable only skidder, it is wonderful. There is a study around:

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~jnz6/Synrop...nch Line.pdf

http://www.orosha.org/pdf/grants/osu...potentials.pdf

In these reports or studies, they expound on the benefits to the human body, as in less fatigue and such, and those attributes are great, but the real benefit from running Amsteel is to the skidder itself. You see the amsteel after it has been pulled and stretched a few times, has a few very nice benefits.

1. You can just drop logs of any size down and never worry about crow's nesting of the cable of any kind. This is because it is so light that the winch spool doesn't have enough inersia to keep on spinning, after the log is on the ground, or it doesn't have the spring that steel does. I don't believe in the spring part though, because when it breaks it is a little more exciting than a steel cable in my opinion.

2. This second benefit is directly related to the first one. When you get to your next log and pull out some cable to attached to the next log. When you start to pull you don't have to clutch the machine forward to take out the crows nest and relay the cable correctly, so as to not damage the steel cable. You see the Amsteel doesn't seem to care how it is sitting on the winch spool, and only maybe twice in 2 years have I had to hook it up to a tree and pull it loose, because it got stuck within itself, like steel will do if not properly respooled each time.

3. The above two benefits take a lot of stress and abuse off of the transmission and winch, either for dry runs of pulling forward to de-spool the cable and then respool it correctly, not to mention the time wasted for the above practices that must be adhered to with steel cable or your steel cable will be broken by the day's end, or seriously damaged and won't last the week.

4. Another thing is the practice of dropping the logs, by releasing the winch and then quickly re-engaging the winch brake to prevent the crows nesting. This re-application of the winch brake is completely not needed anymore, and that is with the drag set to complete free-spool, for easier pulling out of the cable.

Also it is extremely light, you can pull out 130 feet and hold the whole rope up level with your shoulder with one hand, with steel cable you cannot hold 40' up off the ground, LOL, so it just drags around behind you, through the woods.

Splicing this stuff is very easy, a little kid could do it. Just figure the first splice will take 1 hour and there will be cussing, while you read the directions and then the next splice will take about 15 minutes, and the next one 10 minutes and then about 5 or less minutes after that, and it is a peaceful operation. Not hammering some cable cutter that may or may not cutt it off in a few whacks. Then finding something to anchor the knot with and in and out of the skidder several times trying to get the anchor knot correct and tight, then trimming the excess steel cable off later.

If you buy 100' feet of Amsteel and damage the rope in the middle, you can just splice it and move on. With Steel cable, that cable is now half the length and you have just wasted 50+ feet of cable, because you can't do a mid-splice. With Amsteel you would have only lost about 4' .... just enough to splice it again.

More feet of Amsteel will fit onto the same winch than the same claimed size of steel.

That is why I like it, and I feel its benefits far out weigh any negatives related to it.

My opinion,..............................




Okay I finally found the post, below is the page where I show how I install the Amsteel on a 540B skidder:

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/147985-27.htm

Sam


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## northmanlogging (Dec 6, 2012)

I like that someone is finally willing to admit that it don't just "lay right down" when it breaks, if it stretches at all it will snap back... I wonder if the problem with cable supposedly snapping around is from the fiber core stuff? Personally never seen it happen with steel core cable.

Not to be a jerk but a determined guy/gurl could splice two pieces of cable back together, it just takes 20 some odd hours and allot of creative swearing... and you end up losing around 20 feet or so to do it where it will wind around the drum nicely... there is easier ways but they tend to do funny things on the winch drum and in the fair leads...


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## Humptulips (Dec 7, 2012)

Assuming 3/4 or 5/8 cable you should be able to put a short splice in it and lose no more then 6 feet. Take maybe a half hour.
Have to say though I never heard of anyone long splicing cat lines.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 7, 2012)

ah you read through the rambling... yes a short spice would work but it can put a funky bubble in yer line, not a big deal but still kind of a pain, less of a pain than a long splice in the end though...
the point is you can splice cable... the guys at the log shows do it in something like 5 minutes


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## Humptulips (Dec 7, 2012)

5 minutes? Maybe an eye splice not a long splice. I think I would prefer a short splice over a long splice in a cat line. When's the last time you broke one in the middle though? Always been my experience they wear out on the end.


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## redprospector (Dec 7, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> 5 minutes? Maybe an eye splice not a long splice. I think I would prefer a short splice over a long splice in a cat line. When's the last time you broke one in the middle though? Always been my experience they wear out on the end.



I don't remember ever breaking one in the middle. Like you said, always nibbling 5 or 10 foot off the end (now watch, the next three will break right in the middle).

Andy


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## northmanlogging (Dec 8, 2012)

The log show dudes usually do an eye splice... the short splice I'm thinking of is basicaly two eye splices in parallel, a long splice involves winding individual strands along the length and tucking in some archaic series I never did understand real well, i.e. time consuming. Besides its the last few feet of a winch line that gets the most abuse anyway, that's why its more likely to break off there. If'n we where all more responsible... we would flip the winch line when it got to a "half life" and then abuse the other end until it falls off and worry about buying a new one then... but how often does that really happen.

Don't remember snapping a line in the middle but I imagine it would take some rather drastic circumstances to achieve that goal... I would think the choker would go first,


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## Humptulips (Dec 8, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> The log show dudes usually do an eye splice... the short splice I'm thinking of is basicaly two eye splices in parallel, a long splice involves winding individual strands along the length and tucking in some archaic series I never did understand real well, i.e. time consuming. Besides its the last few feet of a winch line that gets the most abuse anyway, that's why its more likely to break off there. If'n we where all more responsible... we would flip the winch line when it got to a "half life" and then abuse the other end until it falls off and worry about buying a new one then... but how often does that really happen.
> 
> Don't remember snapping a line in the middle but I imagine it would take some rather drastic circumstances to achieve that goal... I would think the choker would go first,



No, that is not a short splice. That would be a #### splice (the C word the ladies don't like to be called). A short splice is more like a long splice except you don't roll the strands out in pairs.
Three pairs at one end and three pairs at the other. I realize that is as clear as mud but I don't know how to explain it better.
Hmm, You split each end in two, 3 strands and 3 strands. Match the cores and roll the three strands from one end along with three from the other end down the line. Same with the ones you left behind.You end up, on each end with three strand passing the other three. Seperate them and cross them. Then you tuck them each three times and the tucks all come close together. Repeat on the other end.
Best I can do for explantion.

That archaic series of tucks you mentioned on a long splice is very simple really. Once the strands are crossed just remember you tuck the strand under the two strands the strand you are tucking comes out from between so strand you are tucking drive your spike under the two on either side of it. Poke it under with the lay not against.

Next lesson a rolled in long splice.:msp_scared:


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## Guswhit (Dec 12, 2012)

View attachment 267314
View attachment 267315
View attachment 267316


I used the Amsteel Blus on my new skidder attachment I made. So far I think it is great! It is very lite when reeling it out for log hooks. Only could afford 100' this time, but don't really want to pull any farther.


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## DavdH (Dec 12, 2012)

now that is a skid trail,


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## Slamm (Dec 13, 2012)

Guswhit said:


> View attachment 267314
> View attachment 267315
> View attachment 267316
> 
> ...



What kinda end splice is that?

Do you have a metal guard on the inside of the eye? If so, its not really necessary, I've never broke one there. They always break where the end of the splice meets the main line again, but never at or around the eye itself, typicall 1 foot or fid length from the eye.

Sam


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## Guswhit (Dec 14, 2012)

Slamm said:


> What kinda end splice is that?
> 
> Do you have a metal guard on the inside of the eye? If so, its not really necessary, I've never broke one there. They always break where the end of the splice meets the main line again, but never at or around the eye itself, typicall 1 foot or fid length from the eye.
> 
> Sam



The line came with a metal guard on the end. I did not see a reason to remove it. I just used a small clevis to attach one of my chokers.


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## BERN-TIMBER (Dec 26, 2012)

Slamm, what size amsteel are you running? And after looking through some of your pics I cant tell what kind of mainline setup you are running. I looked in to rope a few different times but was always told by the dealers that it would not take the abuse of friction caused by running 5-6 sliders. I cut a variety of woods here in PA, from big logs that I can only grab one at a time to pulp in clearcuts where I haul as many as 8 sticks out. Do you run numerous slides and hook them up all at once or do you try to always straight line pull and limit the friction. Its nice when you fan a hitch out right to run cable out, hook up 5 or 6 and go. Id be upset burning holes through 4 dollar a foot rope.


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## mad murdock (Dec 26, 2012)

How does the unimog do in the woods? How much can you drag at once?


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## mad murdock (Dec 26, 2012)

Couple questions about the synthetic rope: 1. Did you have to polish the arch roller and fair leads to avoid abrasion? 2. Do you use the regular steel slides to attach the chokers to the mainline? 3.what kind of nubbin or feature do you use on the end?


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## Guswhit (Dec 26, 2012)

mad murdock said:


> How does the unimog do in the woods? How much can you drag at once?



I have not been out very much yet, only about 8-9 hours all together. So far it is doing better than I anticipated! I do have chains for the unimog but have not put them on or been out to the timber since it snowed this year. I only have one choker on my line and it is not a slider so I can not tell you how those work. A couple of my pulls have been logs in excess of 24 inches and been 35-40 feet long. I am able to get them pulled up to the back and then use my hydraulic sprague to lift the end up which gives me added traction and it has just walked right out. I do expect issues, like slippage once the snow is on hte ground but the logs should slide out and across the ground easier also. Broke a hydraulic line the other day and with the holidays here, I haven't had time to repair it yet. Not complaining, since I'm sure that the line was original equipment from 1984.

I work part time in a welding/fabrication shop also and my boss and myself fabbed my double roller sheave on the rear and I run no fairlead. The paint on them wore off in just a few feet of pulling. My line came equiped with an eye and metal guard in it that I just put a shackle in to attach the choker to.


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## mad murdock (Dec 26, 2012)

Guamos for the feedback! Tules unimogs are neat machines. I have been thinking about switching to synthetic rope when it comes time to respool the mainline on my skidder. Looks like neat stuff. I wonder if anyone has ever setup a high lead operation with it? Oh the possibilities! With such a drastic weight reduction there are a lot of things you could do. I think all inwould need is 9/16" mainline for my gearmatic 8A winch on the old Garrett


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## singinwoodwackr (Dec 26, 2012)

mad murdock said:


> Couple questions about the synthetic rope: 1. Did you have to polish the arch roller and fair leads to avoid abrasion? 2. Do you use the regular steel slides to attach the chokers to the mainline? 3.what kind of nubbin or feature do you use on the end?



1, yes, burrs, nicks, etc will tear up the rope.

to the question of what happens when this stuff breaks...It does not just 'drop' in line; it will snap back directly to where it is tied in. Ie, if the break is near the winch the rest of the line will shoot directly back to the log and bunch up there. (got a vid of this somewhere...)

I've never used AMsteel for skidding but have used it in my truck winch for many years with great success for pulling logs and vehicle recovery. Break strength is a lot higher than standard steel cable, (ex: the 5/16" cable that came on my winch was rated @ 9800#. The same diameter Amsteel is 13,700#.) At 64,400# a 3/4" rope might be overkill.

A con that hasn't been discussed yet...extreme temps on the winch drum will melt the rope but this can be averted by splicing a high-temp resistant section for the first layer on the drum. I've only had this happen once when doing a lot of winching out under stress, never pulling in...has to do with the braking action of the Warn winch.

Anyone used this stuff as a choker?

Samson's site has all kinds of info including logging specific stuff.
Samson-The Strongest Name in Rope, AMSTEEL-BLUE


my .02


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## 056 kid (Dec 26, 2012)

Stuff sounds excellent for farmer logging. Real pulling I think would render it useless.


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## singinwoodwackr (Dec 26, 2012)

056 kid said:


> Stuff sounds excellent for farmer logging. Real pulling I think would render it useless.



If you are talking abrasion the issue isn't with soft dirt/grass, brush, etc. but with hard rock. Out here we have a lot of granite in the mountains so use a 10' nylon sleeve over the rope when pulling over rocks. Most recovery gear places sell winch lines with the sleeve.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 27, 2012)

Nobody ever pays attention to the working limits of rope vs. cable, yeah yeah its supposed to break at such and such but its only safe to use up to x poundage, and there is a world of difference between the two. 

Also all rope will stretch, and when it stretches its snaps back, cable will also stretch but noticeably less, and once it stretches it doesn't really snap back, its stays stretched for the most part, that's why old cable is so hard to splice.

In my limited experience with broken cable most of the snap back is do to the load put on it, not from the "rubber band effect" of the cable, in other words a lift tree, or a spar tree has a bit of bend under it when put under load, when that load is loosened abruptly, that energy is transferred into the loose end of the cable. A skidder would be the tires causing this, not the cable.

Granted this is mostly just observation on my part, but some of it comes from reading things like the machinery's handbook, and then doing the math, and doing every thing I can to see why stuff breaks and what I can do to prevent it... (kinda nutty like that...)

The simple fact that the space rope can't be used with a realistic fair lead is reason number one while I will probably never use it, that and its over priced.


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## StihlKiwi (Dec 27, 2012)

Here's a paper on synthetic rope use in logging if anyone's interested

http://www.nzjf.org/free_issues/NZJF51_2_2006/4882A710-94A1-4548-AF63-A68333B5CDEF.pdf


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## singinwoodwackr (Dec 27, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> Here's a paper on synthetic rope use in logging if anyone's interested
> 
> http://www.nzjf.org/free_issues/NZJF51_2_2006/4882A710-94A1-4548-AF63-A68333B5CDEF.pdf



wow, good find. Have you seen anything newer? that thing is 7yrs old


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## StihlKiwi (Dec 27, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Nobody ever pays attention to the working limits of rope vs. cable, yeah yeah its supposed to break at such and such but its only safe to use up to x poundage, and there is a world of difference between the two.



Safe working limit is typically 1/3rd of the breaking strain of a wire rope, allows for dynamic loading etc when in use



> Also all rope will stretch, and when it stretches its snaps back, cable will also stretch but noticeably less, and once it stretches it doesn't really snap back, its stays stretched for the most part, that's why old cable is so hard to splice.



I thought UHMWPE rope (Amsteel etc) stretched less than the equivalent wire rope?


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## northmanlogging (Dec 27, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> Safe working limit is typically 1/3rd of the breaking strain of a wire rope, allows for dynamic loading etc when in use
> 
> 
> 
> I thought UHMWPE rope (Amsteel etc) stretched less than the equivalent wire rope?



working strength of most rope is 1-10th or 1-7th

the difference in the stretch factor is the synthetic stuff will return to its original length, where as steel once its stretched only returns a fraction of its original length. Allot has to do with core material, most cable these days is wire core, its pretty hard to compress steel. where with rope its a fiber core, very easy to compress, and then it bounces right back to where it started.


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## StihlKiwi (Dec 27, 2012)

singinwoodwackr said:


> wow, good find. Have you seen anything newer? that thing is 7yrs old



I read that at least a year ago, and when I searched for more articles then I don't think I found anything. When I get back to my place with faster net I'll have another look, there's bound to be more studies on it.


I'm sure I've heard of synthetic rope being used as strawline but I can't think of where I came across that


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## StihlKiwi (Dec 27, 2012)

Here's an article from Loggers World about a guy in Oregon running Amsteel. He seems pretty happy with it, wonder if he's still using it.

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~jnz6/Synrope_Research/Loggersworld/Loggers World Article September 2003.pdf


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