# vermeer 352 and rg50



## ROLLACOSTA (May 2, 2005)

I am seriously going to purchase a new diesel stump grinder soon ,but the trouble is which one to go for  .I like the 352 and the rg50 though i have not had a demo of either yet ,i have seen and run them and took them for a walk ,but i haven't cut a stump with either yet ,my main concern is HOW STABLE ON ROUGH GROUND ARE THEY? i have been told that both the rg50 and 352 MUST be used with the extra wide wheel's,how true is this ?

i will also get a demo of a tracked carlton ,but from what you guy's have said about the wheeled 4400/4 i won't even bother with this machine


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## Dadatwins (May 2, 2005)

I demo the vermeer and was not thrilled with the stability of the unit. The one I demo had the three wheel setup, four wheel is available but do not think it would help. Seemed to me to have a lot of top weight. Had nice power on level ground grinding but the stability issue pulled me away. The Rg-50 is really nice machine, nice low center of gravity for turns and hills IMO just out of my price range this year. I will look at it next year. The rg-50 I have seen was set up with dual standard wheels and looked to run fine on a slope. Not sure how much the wider wheels will add to width of unit but if gate access not a problem, I would think the wider the better. I use a Carlton 7500 tow behind at work and it has plenty of power for street tree grinding. We have a carlton 2700 4 wheel with a Kawasaki engine, but my Rayco 1625a runs circles around it. The carlton is just to heavy in my opinion. As for anything with tracks, stay away if you are doing residential and care about tearing up turf. Good luck.


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## Lumberjack (May 2, 2005)

we have the RG rolla. 

It is much more stable with the outside wheels on (and it bounces less due to the weight being over 4 tires) but it is far from unstable IMO with the outside tires off (to get the 36" width).

When side hilling we normally swing the wheel uphill. The RG50 is of the size that you can man handle the machine (like in mud you can push it through normally and then use your weight.

I say (as always) get the RG50.


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## ROLLACOSTA (May 2, 2005)

thank's guys for your replies ..Dada was you looking at the vermeer 352 deisel model ???..Lumber i have a 7' oak stump to grind out to a depth of 8'' below ground ,how long do you reckon the rg50 would take to do a stump that size ??

i think IF i whent track's id need a dozen or so 8'x4' plywood boards


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## Dadatwins (May 2, 2005)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> thank's guys for your replies ..Dada was you looking at the vermeer 352 deisel model ???


Yes, diesel engine is the only thing available on the 352 I think. Nice unit , and seemed to have plenty of power just like the stability of the Rayco better. Bandit has a nice looking unit also, no info on the site yet think they are still prototype, not sure if they are available 'across the big pond' either.  
http://www.banditchippers.com/index.php?option=com_models&task=view&itemId=15&lineId=26&modelId=33


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## juststumps (May 2, 2005)

have a 2004 vermeer 352,,,they do make a gas 352,, get the deisel,, PROS...10k less than a RG50,,,, lighter,towing,, lawns!!! 36" sweep... CONS,, it's top heavy, gotta watch out on slopes... turn the cutter up hill for balence....rayco has a 70" inch sweep,,,[MAJOR PLUS] 35 hp vs 48hp for the rayco.... but it's $10,000 more.....so you gotta take two stabs at the stump......it's pain... but $10,00 is a lot of stumps


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## juststumps (May 2, 2005)

meant $10,000.....still have to push the thing trough mud.....they do get stuck easy,,in sloppy ground...had a run of really big stumps... wish had a rayco T275....


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## Lumberjack (May 3, 2005)

7' stump 8" below the ground. How high is the stump? Is it hollow or solid? The biggest stumps (done I believe) where an honest 10' in diameter at the cut. A 7' stump isnt a very common place, at least around here. Its been a WHILE since I ran the RG50. It will grind a 3' oak stump under a foot high, 10-12" deep in under 20 min I would think. I will ask my dad and see if he can give me more solid times. I can tell you that a RG85 will grind the same 3' stump in under 8 minutes, I am trying to be conservative with the times as to not put foot in mouth, or give you unaccurate info.


The short swing of the vemeer is a turnoff to us, and I cant remember but is the vemeer cutterwheel ran off hydraulics? Thats a MAJOR plus if it is. I dont really keep up with any models other than Rayco, havent found any that would suit us better based off the specs.

I checked out the 352. Here is what I pulled from looking at the design and specs for under 5 min. 
I WOULD NOT recommend it. 

No operator shield, either you will be hit with stuff or you CANNOT see. No two ways about it, I wouldnt run a machine like that I dont believe.

It is around 600 pounds lighter than the RG50, but on smaller diameter and width (I am guessing on the width) than the RG50 which I believe is a moot point. 

The exhaust comes right out around your face, even if its facing away, you will feel it and smell it on windy days for sure (we can on our RG85). 

It does NOT a hydraulic cutterwheel, very nice feature. I have never seen the purpose in the huge thing at the end of the cutterwheel, hell rayco's small one gets in the way, that thing there is HUGE. 

It has a 40" swing arc BTW (RG50 is 67"). 

It looks to have a much higher C.O.G. than the RG 50, so side hilling looks to be an issue.

The RG 50 cutterwheel can reach 8" higher (good thing) and 1" lower (basically insignificant).

The 352 is 4" longer, insigificant in theory, but isnt this suppose to be compact? I cant say 4" would have ever kept us from a stump but I think the 352 could be more compact.

RG50 has 49 hp which is around 43% more HP than the 352, which I say is significant. There is loss in the hydraulics over direct drive but we will never use a self propelled machine that doesnt have hydraulic drive.

This is IMHO, I get nothing from rayco or anyone to say these things or think this way.


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## ROLLACOSTA (May 3, 2005)

juststumps said:


> meant $10,000.....still have to push the thing trough mud.....they do get stuck easy,,in sloppy ground...had a run of really big stumps... wish had a rayco T275....



JUSTSTUMP'S is the 352 unstable even with the extra wide wheel's attached ??


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## ROLLACOSTA (May 3, 2005)

whilst i'm on the subject ,have any of you guy's got any experience with these new Bandit stump grinder's . They look a bit like Carlton's to me.


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## Lumberjack (May 3, 2005)

They look alot like carltons to me. If it aint got an operator shield (the Alpine Magnum excluded as well as the 2 wheel machines) then it really doesnt have a good standing with me.

Hydraulic drive is "it" for "us".


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## juststumps (May 3, 2005)

rollacosta,,,the 352 has dual wheels on the front standard...you have to lift the 352 up,,, take the duals off to get in a 36" gate... use the wheel to lift it, take the outer wheels off,,,3 bolts on each...put them back on after getting thru the gate....it is top heavy....it's about 50"s wide, with the duals,, 35 with out...rg 50 comes with single wheels, 35"... duals are an option... wide hi float tires are an option...lumber jack said no shield..true,, gotta wear ppe...work by feel...rg, you see,,bigger ,sweep..10K???? for me not right now...352 has 35 hp,,, rg 50 has 48, super 50 has 60hp... vermeern is direct drive,, rayco is hydro...vermeer says there is a loss in hp with the hydro.. so 35 hp =48 hp.. i really dont believe that...so ,,it was a money thing...


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## juststumps (May 3, 2005)

rolla, i don't think i replied to your Q..it's all on how you drive it.. i wouldn't drive it laterally on a steep slope, and start swinging the cutter around...i'd only do that facing up hill... the 352 is top heavy..


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## Lumberjack (May 3, 2005)

Our RG50 came standard with duals. 

There is a loss with using hydraulics, its nowhere near 14 hp. The super 50 has 50% more torque also. HP ratings are important, but so is the underlying torque band (hp is a mathmatical representation of torque at a given RPM).

10k aint nothing when it comes to getting the right equipent. Spend now and be happy later.


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## Liston (May 4, 2005)

*Don't knock it*

Don't knock it till you've tried it, SP7015trx 

Give us a call back to talk Diesel grinders. There is a difference.


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## Thor's Hammer (May 4, 2005)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> 5 years ago we put an old 35hp rayco on a kubota undercarrige, just to see if it was a good idea - the whole thing cost me about £3000 including our labour. I'll say this, i would NEVER go back to a wheeled grinder after having tracks. carry a few ply boards if you want to turn the machine, but other than that they dont leave a mark on grass and float through mud. i put the controls on a cable remote, but i suppose i would do it with a radio remote now.
> if you want serious grinder advice, talk to ian gilbert at gristwood and toms - the guy is the don when it comes to stumps, and a proper diamond geezer


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## Liston (May 5, 2005)

*Grinders*

Totoly agree with that advise, talk to Ian he knows a good grinder when he see one  

Also with the new turf tracks fitted as standard equipment on Carlton ground imprints are less damaging in a stright line.


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## ROLLACOSTA (May 6, 2005)

Had a demo today of the 352 ,not a bad machine but it does have several very annoying point's 1,POOR VISABILITY [control's to cutter wheel] no remote option 2,RADIATOR SUCK'S UP ALL THE CR*P BIG TIME EVEN WITH THE MESH SCREEN 3,THE MOST IRATATING THING IS THE 40'' CUTTING ARK WAY TO SHORT IMO 4,ITS ALSO A LOT SLOWER THAN I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE 45 MINS FOR A 48'' POPLAR STUMP ground 6'' below [cut very low to the ground]

GOOD POINT'S 

deisel engine

back up service 

price

build look's fairly strong

and the machine is imo fairly stable


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## ROLLACOSTA (May 6, 2005)

NEXT demo RAYCO...RG50 though to be fair this machine is much bigger and more powerfull so not realy a like for like machine [plus it's a lot more exspensive]


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## P_woozel (May 6, 2005)

I like the RG50 tthough I dont think its stable at all I wont run it on a double fall line withhout the duals on, if you take them off when going thru a 36" gate if there is any variance in ground level it will pivot easily into gate. Thhe machine aint light weighs a ton and its long so fitting thru that 3' gate is only part of the battle. I get the thing stuck frequently in poorly drained yards with the heavy glacial till, that rig just jiggles the crap until its high centered in thick soup. Keep a winch handy. But it does grind well, wish it had remote, and better flaps for shin protection, compared to vermeers tracked 50hp rig its way better.


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## juststumps (May 8, 2005)

10k aint nothing when it comes to getting the right equipent. Spend now and be happy later.

lumberjack, send me a check... if 10k is'nt nothing to you,,,write me a check,,throw a couple more zeros in for laughs!!!!


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## Lumberjack (May 9, 2005)

juststumps said:


> 10k aint nothing when it comes to getting the right equipent. Spend now and be happy later.
> 
> lumberjack, send me a check... if 10k is'nt nothing to you,,,write me a check,,throw a couple more zeros in for laughs!!!!




If your job is going to be just stumps, like your handle, then 10k is nothing. We have done stumps part time for going on 7 years and we have a RG50 and an RG85. 

If it doesnt make sense to go with the best, most effecient (for us) equipment, then you arent goint to be in buisness very long.

10k isnt much when conservatively we have done at least 250k worth of stumps in the last 7 years. There is a reason we have been in the stump grinding buisness longer than anyone else in our area. Part of that is from having great equipment.

I recently did a job clearing a vine infested hedge row. I could have done the whole job with my regular saws but I decided it would be smarter to buy a power pruner. At only 600 bucks its a far cry from 10 grand but the idea remains, I spent the money on that job (only a portion of the total job price) and since then the power pruner has made me around 1 grand in work savings alone, excluding the hedge row I bought it for.

Buying quality equipment that you will use as your PRIMARY source of income is a no brainer. 10k is piss in a pot, money doesnt go near as far as it used to. If all goes well tomorrow, me and my little 2 man crew (we are a man short) will bring home around 1.6k tomorrow night. 1/3 of which will come from the RG85 because the doctor had to have his stuff ground tomorrow.

And I am sorry but no check will be written, we have spent around 30 grand in the last month, and we are about at our limit for now.

Buy the best, work hard, be the best. Its a circle, for us at least.


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## stumpy66 (May 9, 2005)

i Think you are not judging like with like, the 352 is aimed, i think, at the likes of the 1625/1631, they have similar sweep etc. The 352 is really an very good entry level desiel machine aimed at those who want the advantages of desiel over thirsty throwaway petrol units at a reasonable price. The RG 50 is a step up...no comparison.


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## Lumberjack (May 9, 2005)

And if your going to be doing this as a professional wouldnt you want a professional machine?

I made 500 this morning so far from 2.25 hours of grinding. High price because the guy didnt clean up the stuff before asking for a bid, woulda came down on the price but then he didnt move the construction items from around some of the stumps.

Professional grade for professional work.


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## Lumberjack (May 9, 2005)

Mek, what vemeer grinder do you have?


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## ROLLACOSTA (May 10, 2005)

Lumberjack have you got 'command control' on your Rayco stump cutter's ,i have been on the phone today to our one and only rayco dealer in the UK .He tells me the RG50 now doe's not come with this option 'command control' the reason for this he said is because 'command control' slows the operation of stump grinding down too much


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## juststumps (May 11, 2005)

groundie on the side,, grinder on the side... got a 5x8 job...i get 75 to 100 per hour..kinda shoting myself in the foot getting a machine that is more costly. and will do it faster...as a part timer.....if your running every day,and can pay for the machine...go for the biggest...that doesn't fit my need right now.....or budget...i have three 48" at 1 foot stumps coming up...i'd love to have a rg50/rgsuper50/rg85/or a sc60tx, to do this job....but i don't.. so it might take me six hours to do the job....it's just a something to do thing..got paid to help take the trees down, and i'll get $500 to take stumps out....i;m happy with that..


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## Lumberjack (May 11, 2005)

Rolla, sorry for delaying, i responded somewhere??

Anyways, the RG85 has it. It has to be adjusted to make it work properly from what I understand. We have never used it, a good operator is better than any computer or hydraulic machine.


So yes we have it, no we dont use it. Never have or wanted too either.


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## ROLLACOSTA (May 11, 2005)

thank's Lumber you have answered my question ,now for one other lol why do you say you would only ever have huydraulic and not belt's like a carlton ??


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## Lumberjack (May 11, 2005)

No problem with the questions rolla. It may be easier for us to talk on IM rather than here, answer them faster and more completely. The phone would be the best (other than in person) but I dont have worldwide free (free, haha) long distance (only in North America).

If you can download AIM from www.aim.com and get a screen name, we can setup a time to talk more in person. My screen name on AIM is ctrarborist.

I am certain that the rayco is the best option out there at this point. Its not as much a brand thing as its a spec and performance thing. Hydraulics are better than a belt for many reasons, some are my opinion, others are facts. I will list them here, you can ask about them here (but AIM would be easier for me).

1: Less stress on the motor due to pressure release valves in the system.
2: Speed of cutter wheel is variable to the motor RPM due to the variable displacement pump, good when grinding roots or gravel (high motor RPM, slower cutter speed)
3: Less overall mantience. The polychain lasts for MANY hours, and change the fluid every 250 hours.
4: You can see what your grinding better because you dont have the motor and belts in the way
5: You can stall the motor, but with hydraulics you have a second or two to pull out and let the RPM's build back up
6: The V belts are annoying and either the clutch will wear out or the belts will sooner (if the engine slides)
7: The engine doesnt move with the cutterhead, and there is no clutches to wear out
8: Hydraulic pump and motor life its very long. 


Probably some more I am leaving out.

Another question rolla. Whats your buisness plan? Another 5 and retire or keep working as long as you can?


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## mtcates (May 11, 2005)

I have used the 4400-4 Carlton for over 3 years now and I don't see a problem with the belt drive. I got over 500 hours on the first belt and I may have adjusted it 10 or so times over that 500 hour life. I tend to think that this is very reliable and maintenance free. It takes like one minute of my time to tighten the belt and even to replace it took all of 15 minutes. Whats the big deal???????? I do about 100 grand a year with this machine and it has performed wonderful. By the way, Carlton uses a polychain to drive the wheel. The v-belt drives the poly chain. On the 4400-4, the motor doesn't tilt as you raise and lower the cutter wheel. A friend of mine has a vermeer 50tx with a direct shaft drive and my Carlton will easily out perform his machine. There are many people that are biased towards there machine brand and have never really tried any other machine. I think all machines will get the job done. Some machines have more or different options but if the end result is the same then thats what it's all about. A wise Business man in the tree industry that I know told me that having the biggest and the best equipment is not where its at, but rather having the tools to get the job done and if its paid for that makes it all the better.


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## ROLLACOSTA (May 12, 2005)

Thank's Lumber for your in depth post


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## Lumberjack (May 12, 2005)

No problemo. Got any more questions? We changed the fluids in the RG85 last weekend as per regular maint.

What kind of teeth does the carlton use? We are very pleased with the super tooth from Rayco. We also retip them once or twice, saving money.


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## ROLLACOSTA (May 12, 2005)

CARLTON comes with a choice ,green teeth,rayco super teeth [lol] ,or the old finger bar teeth as i call them...must admit i do like the super teeth myself


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## juststumps (May 12, 2005)

reason i got a 352.....local tree company trashed their old grinder...(was a gas 252)..... they got a vemeer 352... if it's good for a company with five 3 man crews.. it's good enough for me!!! just saw on the news,, my regular jobs is working for amtrak,,a bridge is on fire,,,, no trains running..might have to railroad this weekend,, instead of making wood chips!!


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jun 2, 2005)

juststumps ,by late friday afternoon or monday morning i will be the proud owner of a 352..I got a great trade in price for my 252, plus an all in all great deal .

I had another demo and i liked the machine a lot better second time around , i also think like you the price differance is lot to consider [compared to other machines].

can't wait to give her a go on a few big stumps booked in for next week 4x36'' oak stumps...


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## Liston (Jun 3, 2005)

If you want good deal on 352 then give us a call as I have 2004 machine coming in on trade in for a Carlton 4012 Diesel.

Sold 4012 to this guys brother this year and he said it was night and day differance when they used machines on same site contract so he's ordered a Carlton diesel.


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## a_lopa (Jun 3, 2005)

personally id prefer belts over hydraulic,there cheaper in the long run.


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## Liston (Jun 3, 2005)

*Belts vs hydro*

Hydraulic hp always depends on flow so as the hydraulics get worn then power drops over time.
Belts work or slip thats simple and whats the cost of a belt compared to a pumps & motor.


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## a_lopa (Jun 3, 2005)

4k for a pump and splines or $200 for belts i know what id have.


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## Lumberjack (Jun 3, 2005)

We have logged 1700 hours on our RG85 without any hydraulic pump/motor issues. A lopa, your qoute on the price is way to general to carry any weight.

For example, I know that when we priced a pump for our RG50 (the main, varialbe displacement pump) it would be 5k, that was 6 years ago, we were just checkin. No problems with it either, another 1500 plus hours there.


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