# Questions about logging and/or clearing several acres on my land...



## WATYF (Jul 10, 2010)

Hi there. I recently purchased some raw land, mostly wooded. I'm looking to put a cabin up and I'd like to clear maybe 5 or so acres (possibly more).

My question is... should I have it clear cut (logged) or just cleared (bulldozed)? Are there certain advantages/disadvantages to either option? Obviously, if I get it clear cut, I can sell the timber and that would make me money, but if I just clear it, then the timber isn't any good, and so it costs me money. But will the clear cutting, it leaves stumps behind. I'm trying to find a picture of land that has been clear cut so I can see what that looks like. Does anyone have any?

Also, does clear cut land just grow right back in a few years? Or is that true of cleared land as well?

Any help is well appreciated. Thanks.

WATYF


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## 2dogs (Jul 10, 2010)

Can you post a pic of the land as it is right now? There are members from your state tha could answer some of your questions.


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## WATYF (Jul 10, 2010)

Sure... let me see if I can dig some up. I don't have many pictures of just the trees, but I'm sure I have some with the area I'm looking to clear in it.

Just FYI, it's in a very "hilly" region of Missouri (St. Francois mountains), and the area I need cleared is on a slope. I don't know if that makes a difference.


WATYF


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## wvlogger (Jul 10, 2010)

Oncei see pics i will know more. Generally if you want tobuild you clear out double the area of the structure.(and i meen clear) then you go from there


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## WATYF (Jul 10, 2010)

Here are some pictures.

The first picture shows a portion of the land needing to be cleared. The vantage point is from the bottom of the hill. Everything to the right of the "road" will be cleared.

The second picture shows more of the land to the right of the "road". Again, this is taken from the bottom of the hill looking uphill.

The third picture shows the site for the cabin.

The fourth picture (taken in early spring before the leaves grew back) is taken from up the hill looking down. From this vantage point, everything to to the *left* of the road will be cleared.

The last picture is also taken from further up the hill looking downward towards the valley (you just can't see the valley through all the trees). This shows a larger portion of what must be cleared.


I should clarify... I'm not just looking to clear out space for a cabin. I'm looking to clear out a view as well. I want the cabin to be up the hill looking down at an unobstructed view of the valley (because I will be building a small lake there). Also, when you're at the cabin spot looking down towards the direction of the valley, you are facing west, so clearing out everything between the cabin and the valley will allow me to not only see the lake, but also to see the sunset over the neighboring mountain top.

WATYF


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## Metals406 (Jul 10, 2010)

WATYF said:


> Here are some pictures.
> 
> The first picture shows a portion of the land needing to be cleared. The vantage point is from the bottom of the hill. Everything to the right of the "road" will be cleared.
> 
> ...



Your best bet, is to have a well planned, thought out attack.

An excavator will be the best tool to clear, dig, and move logs. It looks awful rocky there as well, so I would want a shovel -- at least -- 30,000 pounds.

You can rent a 15 ton shovel for around $7,400 a month. That gives you 30+ days of time (unlimited hour usage) to do your thing. If you are diligent, and a decent operator, in that time you can:

Clear and deck all timber, dig said pond, punch in or improve all roads, dig and prep cabin site, septic, water and power.

Figure in at least another $2,500 for diesel.

In 2008, I put over 400 hours on a Cat 312 CL in 34 days. The site was heavy granite, and hard digging. In that time, I removed all the trees, punched in a 1/2 mile driveway, improved existing roads, dug the foundation, built a rock wall with the spoil, punched in power water and septic, and various other property improvements.

Long story short, you can get a lot done with a shovel, in a short amount of time. And as you can see, the site was not short of freaking granite rock. This was just the home site and doesn't show the driveway and other projects.


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## Steve NW WI (Jul 10, 2010)

There's a ton of work there, and what looks to be some revenue as timber or at least firewood depending on the market in your area.

If you're going the DIY route, I'm with Metals, rent/lease an excavator, preferably one with a thumb attachment. Leave stumps 3-4' high so you can get some leverage on them.

To get to finished status, you're gonna need more "stuff" as well. I'd recommend a 60-100hp farm tractor with loader and grapple, for moving logs, piling brush, and landscaping. I'd consider buying rather than renting this one, as it's something you can make use of after the project is done doing upkeep on the property. MFWD (front wheel assist) is great if you can afford it, but 2wd works if you have a rig with some weight to it. (Note that I said farm tractor above, and not the cutesy overgrown lawn mower "compact" tractors.) Deere, CaseIH, New Holland, and Massey all make good stuff, just go with what you have a good dealer for. If you keep it in decent shape and decide you no longer need it when you're done, depreciation ain't too bad unless you buy new. Judging by the steepness of your land, make dang sure whatever you get has a ROPS (roll bar), wear your seatbelt, and set the tires as wide as they'll go.

Get a couple old hay wagons. Strip the bed off one and make a log rack for carrying logs to a landing. Leave the flat rack on the other for carrying logs, rocks, brush, whathaveya.

Once it's all cleared, you're gonna need something to work and smooth the ground for seeding. A disk is probably what you're gonna want there, it's probably not going to do as good of a job smoothing as a tractor driven tiller, but rocks will tear up a tiller in no time and they can get expensive to fix. You should be able to rent a grain drill to put down grass seed with a cover of oats to help prevent erosion before the grass comes in, possibly spread straw over the whole works as well.

Sound like a lotta work? Call a couple logging companies and excavators and get quotes and let them do it.

If not, keep us posted. It looks like a heck of a project, and one that could be about as fun as hard work gets.


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## WATYF (Jul 10, 2010)

OK, so you suggest that I completely clear it with a dozer (or similar) instead of just clear cutting it? Is there any way to sell all the felled trees when doing that?

Also, yes... it is very rocky. These mountains have very large amounts of rock at the surface. You can see an example in the picture I've attached to this post... right in the middle of the area that needs to be cleared is this large rock field (and the picture only shows a portion of the rock field).

Btw, I am utterly incompetent when it comes to these matters, so I won't be doing this myself. Either way, I will have to hire someone to do the work. My main concern is whether I should clear it entirely, or just clear cut so I have a view.

WATYF


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## slowp (Jul 10, 2010)

You really need to talk to your local people. Are there any restrictions? Zoning? Do you need a harvest plan? What product do any mills around there want? Who logged and has a good reputation? That last part is very important. Check their references. Make sure you communicate exactly what you want. A contract of some sort might be nice to have.

The stumps are not a problem. If you want them out of the way, just cut them a bit higher than normal so they can be pushed or pulled out. 

Maybe I'm a tree hugger at heart, but I tried to leave as many trees as possible around my house. We don't have much of a wildfire problem and I like the greenery, not to mention the privacy. The trees left are all pretty wind firm, with good crowns to block the wind. 

Your ground is rocky, so getting trees growing again where you want them might be a problem. Local people would know.


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## WATYF (Jul 10, 2010)

OK... so if I do have it logged, then I should have them cut the stumps higher, so they're easier to pull out later. That's good to know. Thanks.


WATYF


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## catbuster (Jul 10, 2010)

I'd have it logged, then use a cat with a root rake to pop all the stumps and grade everything.


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## forestryworks (Jul 10, 2010)

slowp said:


> You really need to talk to your local people. Are there any restrictions? Zoning? Do you need a harvest plan? What product do any mills around there want? Who logged and has a good reputation? That last part is very important. Check their references. Make sure you communicate exactly what you want. A contract of some sort might be nice to have.
> 
> The stumps are not a problem. If you want them out of the way, just cut them a bit higher than normal so they can be pushed or pulled out.
> 
> ...



Yup, you got some good advice from Slowp here.

Call your local forester and tell him what your plans are. He will then tell you what your options are as far as logging the wood goes. He may even have other ideas.

Do this first. Just my opinion.


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## 2dogs (Jul 11, 2010)

In my area of California you would start 100K in non-refundable plan check fees. Then you would go through 5 year or longer permit process with another 100K in fees. Fish and Game will make you forfit your 4th Amendment rights to unlawful search and seizure. You will be subject to unannounced inspections of your entire property for life. Your pond is potential habitat for endangered species, yes there are always endangered species to be found or created, so the county will be taking air photos looking for violations every year. Your property taxes will be about 1 1/2% of your assesed value and will be doubled every 10 years by school bond measures. You will be paying for metered water even though you are on your own well and you will pay for testing every two years. Oh, and unless your parcel is over 40 acres you can't cut any timber. Likely you will have to pay for a complete biotic survey where every tree will be counted and plotted.


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## Metals406 (Jul 11, 2010)

2dogs said:


> In my area of California you would start 100K in non-refundable plan check fees. Then you would go through 5 year or longer permit process with another 100K in fees. Fish and Game will make you forfit your 4th Amendment rights to unlawful search and seizure. You will be subject to unannounced inspections of your entire property for life. Your pond is potential habitat for endangered species, yes there are always endangered species to be found or created, so the county will be taking air photos looking for violations every year. Your property taxes will be about 1 1/2% of your assesed value and will be doubled every 10 years by school bond measures. You will be paying for metered water even though you are on your own well and you will pay for testing every two years. Oh, and unless your parcel is over 40 acres you can't cut any timber. Likely you will have to pay for a complete biotic survey where every tree will be counted and plotted.



Sounds like a wonderful place to live. . . If you like Socialist, Nazi, Marxist, no freedom land.


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## komatsuvarna (Jul 11, 2010)

Id have the area logged if permited. Then clean up the mess. Wont take as long to clean up like this, and the brush pile wont be as big.


Metals406, There proud of them excavators out there huh? Same size is about half that here. Heck, a 200 size machine( 320 cat ) is 4400.00 a month here. Come to think of it, I rented a 330D cat last year to do a deep(20/24 ft)sewer job and it was just 6400.00 a month.


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## Metals406 (Jul 11, 2010)

komatsuvarna said:


> Id have the area logged if permited. Then clean up the mess. Wont take as long to clean up like this, and the brush pile wont be as big.
> 
> 
> Metals406, There proud of them excavators out there huh? Same size is about half that here. Heck, a 200 size machine( 320 cat ) is 4400.00 a month here. Come to think of it, I rented a 330D cat last year to do a deep(20/24 ft)sewer job and it was just 6400.00 a month.



It was rented in Eastern Washington State. . . Right from Western States Cat. It wasn't a screaming deal, but at the time I still saved my friends thousands by doing the esco instead of another contractor.

After I got to digging, I could have used a 330 or bigger. . . Them granite boulders were terrible. I walked one out'a the ground that was the size of a VW Bus.


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## WATYF (Jul 11, 2010)

2dogs said:


> In my area of California you would start 100K in non-refundable plan check fees. Then you would go through 5 year or longer permit process with another 100K in fees. Fish and Game will make you forfit your 4th Amendment rights to unlawful search and seizure. You will be subject to unannounced inspections of your entire property for life. Your pond is potential habitat for endangered species, yes there are always endangered species to be found or created, so the county will be taking air photos looking for violations every year. Your property taxes will be about 1 1/2% of your assesed value and will be doubled every 10 years by school bond measures. You will be paying for metered water even though you are on your own well and you will pay for testing every two years. Oh, and unless your parcel is over 40 acres you can't cut any timber. Likely you will have to pay for a complete biotic survey where every tree will be counted and plotted.



Damn dude... If my state went that way, I'd move. Just to make you feel worse, I pay about 70 bucks in property taxes on 65 acres, and there are no restrictions or laws or any other such nonsense for what I'm doing. I don't even need to let them know. Not even for the cabin (once I build it) or the lake. Hell, I'm allowed to put a septic tank in myself if I want. 

WATYF


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## WATYF (Jul 11, 2010)

forestryworks said:


> Yup, you got some good advice from Slowp here.
> 
> Call your local forester and tell him what your plans are. He will then tell you what your options are as far as logging the wood goes. He may even have other ideas.
> 
> Do this first. Just my opinion.



So, I talked to a couple locals today. One does "clearing" and one does "logging". The "clearing" guy told me that it's easiest to just pay to have it all cleared out (although, that'll cost several thousand). He said if I log it first, then it costs even more because stumps are ten times harder to get out then full trees. The "logging" guy said he can cut a pretty decent amount down and then you can bring a skid in and just push what's left into a pile and burn it (or something to that effect).

So basically, I'm no better off now after having talked to them.  Obviously, I'd much rather *make* money from timbering/clearing the land than spend several thousand to have it cleared by dozer, but if I timber it and it's nearly impossible to clear all the stumps out, then I'm screwed.


Just curious, btw. How do I find a "local forester" in my area? Is that a state thing?

WATYF


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## forestryworks (Jul 12, 2010)

Try this:

Southeast Regional Office
2302 County Park Dr.
Cape Girardeau, MO, 63701
Phone: (573) 290-5730
Fax: (573) 290-5736

Always hire a forester before hiring a logger. You need to know how much sawtimber you have, how much pulpwood you got, etc. in order to see how much money you could make from logging your woodlot.


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## hammerlogging (Jul 12, 2010)

SlowP siad it right. Get someone good, with good ideas, some creative sensibility to make your project into the best.

That rock field, for instance, couldm be bedrock. Something good to know.

The logging element should go hand in hand with the clearing- push over whole tree, ground man cuts off root wad and limbs and tops, merchantable wood goes in one pile, trash in another.

Dont rush in to it, and dont trust just anyone. Loook at old projects potential contractors have done.


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## slowp (Jul 12, 2010)

forestryworks said:


> Try this:
> 
> Southeast Regional Office
> 2302 County Park Dr.
> ...



Depending on your acreage, you'll want to cruise the timber. Cruise means measuring to get a good volume estimate and what *quality * or grade of logs are there. You get different prices for different grades. 

Are the majority of your trees straight? Do the branches start high up? That's an indication of the quality. It takes an experienced person to get a good timber cruise. What scars and rot are in the stand? That's called defect and you'll get that subtracted from the volume for an accurate estimate. 

Then the logger's going to figure out his/her costs, and it may cost more if your ground is rocky and steep. That means a bit slower production. He wants to make money too. 

If the log market is like here, you won't be making much money. Fuel prices are high, logs are low, and that doesn't leave much money for profit. 

Does Missouri have a logger's association? Oregon and Warshington do. Loggers who belong have to take classes each year and some of them even manage to learn new techniques... Poking *fun* at you loggers.


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## Metals406 (Jul 12, 2010)

WATYF said:


> So, I talked to a couple locals today. One does "clearing" and one does "logging". The "clearing" guy told me that it's easiest to just pay to have it all cleared out (although, that'll cost several thousand). He said if I log it first, then it costs even more because stumps are ten times harder to get out then full trees. The "logging" guy said he can cut a pretty decent amount down and then you can bring a skid in and just push what's left into a pile and burn it (or something to that effect).
> 
> So basically, I'm no better off now after having talked to them.  Obviously, I'd much rather *make* money from timbering/clearing the land than spend several thousand to have it cleared by dozer, but if I timber it and it's nearly impossible to clear all the stumps out, then I'm screwed.
> 
> ...



Mills up here have their own Foresters. . . So I'm sure it'll be the same in Missouri. I cruised an 80 acre job with a forester from a local mill (I was bidding the job to select log it), and he was able to ballpark how much they'd pay for the wood we cruised. . . It really helped me with the bid numbers.

I wasn't kidding about having a good, well though out plan when I posted it earlier. You need to think about every aspect of your project, and figure worst case scenario for everything! If you figure worst case, you won't be disappointed if things don't go smoothly or you missed something. . . And if everything goes good, you feel good cause you came in under on your estimate.



hammerlogging said:


> SlowP siad it right. Get someone good, with good ideas, some creative sensibility to make your project into the best.
> 
> That rock field, for instance, could be bedrock. Something good to know.
> 
> ...



:agree2:


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## WATYF (Jul 12, 2010)

hammerlogging said:


> The logging element should go hand in hand with the clearing- push over whole tree, ground man cuts off root wad and limbs and tops, merchantable wood goes in one pile, trash in another.



See, this is exactly what I'd like to have done, but no one that I've talked to seems to do this kind of thing. All the loggers say "cut at the stump only" and all the clearers say "doze them over and the wood can't be used".

WATYF


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## WATYF (Jul 12, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> You need to think about every aspect of your project, and figure worst case scenario for everything! If you figure worst case, you won't be disappointed if things don't go smoothly or you missed something.



Well, right now, worst case scenario is I pay 6 grand to have the whole thing cleared, and I don't get to sell any of the wood.

WATYF


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## hammerlogging (Jul 12, 2010)

Honestly, it looked like low grade sawtimber, and mostly pulpwood and sort of junky all in all-- no that there couldn't be some value hidden in there. I seriously doubt it will pay for clearing costs more than a couple pennies on the dollar, but the material DOES have value and if its just seeing that material go to waste that bothers you, thats good enough.

One problem is that it is 2 different lines of work. You're going to have to go with a clearing contractor but choose one who is more cooperative. It may take some extra work on your part, like a call to a consulting forester or a sawmill so you can find someone with a self loading truck. Or have it all decked so you can firewood it yourself.

1. excavator with thumb
2. dozer with root rake. Saves a ton of topsoil (which it looks like is pretty valuable there
Good luck.

And don't forget to buffer/ protect/ fence off your leave trees- trees and construction (especially from root damage) don't do well


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## angelo c (Jul 14, 2010)

2dogs said:


> In my area of California you would start 100K in non-refundable plan check fees. Then you would go through 5 year or longer permit process with another 100K in fees. Fish and Game will make you forfit your 4th Amendment rights to unlawful search and seizure. You will be subject to unannounced inspections of your entire property for life. Your pond is potential habitat for endangered species, yes there are always endangered species to be found or created, so the county will be taking air photos looking for violations every year. Your property taxes will be about 1 1/2% of your assesed value and will be doubled every 10 years by school bond measures. You will be paying for metered water even though you are on your own well and you will pay for testing every two years. Oh, and unless your parcel is over 40 acres you can't cut any timber. Likely you will have to pay for a complete biotic survey where every tree will be counted and plotted.



I'm sorry 2dogs I must have missed it but what part of New Jersey is this "california" in ?
Also you missed the woodlands management plan and yes we have endangered species in NJ...they are called Libertarians.

A


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## angelo c (Jul 14, 2010)

WATYF said:


> Damn dude... If my state went that way, I'd move. Just to make you feel worse, I pay about 70 bucks in property taxes on 65 acres, and there are no restrictions or laws or any other such nonsense for what I'm doing. I don't even need to let them know. Not even for the cabin (once I build it) or the lake. Hell, I'm allowed to put a septic tank in myself if I want.
> 
> WATYF



Round these parts you can't even put in a "tracking pad" without the environmental and soil conservation dept showing up. I believe a soil disturbance permit was $850. A tracking pad is an area that kind of looks like your driveway but is large 2-3" stone so that soil doesn't get on to the street.


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## secureland (Jul 15, 2010)

To the OP,

Call your county ag or forestry department and get an inventory of what you have there. This will most likely be free and give you a value of your timber. 
With this info you can make the rest of your decisions. If you can't get a government forester out, then you may be able to find a private forester that will offer a free consultation before they do a full all inclusive inventory (an honest forester can tell you in short order if you've got something or not). If they want to charge you money before they show up or give you an opinion then call the next guy. Any good forester will wait to see if there's value in the timber before they charge you, and if there is value the percentage you pay them is justified.


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## Bearcreek (Jul 18, 2010)

angelo c said:


> Round these parts you can't even put in a "tracking pad" without the environmental and soil conservation dept showing up. I believe a soil disturbance permit was $850. A tracking pad is an area that kind of looks like your driveway but is large 2-3" stone so that soil doesn't get on to the street.



California, China, New Jersey. I don't mind visiting communist states on occasion but I wouldn't want to live there. To the OP. Obviously, the stumps have to be taken out for the cabin site and any yard area but they can stay for the area that's just being cleared for a view. You'd probably be better off with a logger for that area if they think it's worth while to them.


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## lego1970 (Jul 20, 2010)

I agree with a few statements on this thread. 

Try to get a forrester to determine if any of the trees are of value. Get on University of Missouri website to get latest stumpage prices, and or woodweb site for other info such as determining board foot, etc, etc. 

Saving some trees would sure make the property look nice. (if you go this route make sure to keep heavy equipment off the root zone of the trees you want to save)

From what I could see in the pics, the Hickory's and Oak's don't appear to be big enough to be of much value, however they would still be worthy of cutting up for firewood. You probably have quite a few cords of wood there. 

Good luck.


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