# Escape route feedback



## sierratree (Dec 2, 2010)

O.K. Folks. What's everyone's motus operandi when using their escape route? : Just run and boogie or face your danger as you leave? Thanks.


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## forestryworks (Dec 2, 2010)

sierratree said:


> O.K. Folks. What's everyone's motus operandi when using their escape route? : Just run and boogie or face your danger as you leave? Thanks.



As somebody once told me, "Always face your danger when falling timber."


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## 371groundie (Dec 2, 2010)

im not coordinated enough to run backwards. i do what the deer do, three quick bounds and look back. take more bounds as neccesary.


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## Slamm (Dec 2, 2010)

While back a cutter, was found dead in the woods with a branch stuck through his back, pinning him to the ground. Maybe he could have dodged it, maybe not, but I think his odds or chances would have been a lot better had be actually seen it coming.

I learned when fighting bulls that its better to face them head up, than try to run from them, by turning around, and dodging flying debris has several similiar points to it, LOL.

I will say that it might be okay to turn tail and run if you have a nice big tree to "tuck behind", that is nearby, but then get turned and check everything out pretty quickly, and check that there aren't any interlocking branches between the two.

Sam


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## slowp (Dec 2, 2010)

I'm not a faller, just an observer. I would say it depends on the situation.
This snag was 11 feet in diameter. The guy who took the job of cutting it is on the cover of Madsen's catalog. I was not there, but saw his TWO cut out escape routes. 







Here is a picture of how he prepared his escape route. And for good reason.
I would guess he used the _Run Like Hell _technique for the snag.





I don't think it is very wise to count on taking cover behind another tree when falling in our timber. Other trees tend to break off when hit by a falling tree, or spring back, or have the branches shear off. But I'm not a faller.

Here's a video of a production faller. He doesn't go far from the tree in this case. 

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I am down in the rigging quite often. I always have a stump or hole picked up to dive into or behind, or a tree to take cover behind. A hooktender told me to get back to where you feel safe, and then take a ten steps more.
Good advice. Things get to flying during yarding too.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 2, 2010)

Sometimes all you can do is cut and run for your life, like this scary Rock Maple I dumped. The smell of veneer was just too strong! Lol
John

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## bitzer (Dec 2, 2010)

It just depends. I usually face it unless its really ugly. I've had to duck several that would have gotten me if I wasn't looking. It just depends and experience will tell you when. 

Great advice Cody!

Nice clip John. That scene looks eerily familar.


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## banshee67 (Dec 2, 2010)

slowp said:


> I
> This snag was 11 feet in diameter. The guy who took the job of cutting it is on the cover of Madsen's catalog. I was not there, but saw his TWO cut out escape routes.
> 
> 
> ...



anymore pics or videos of him cutting the monster snag? id love to see


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## 380LGR (Dec 2, 2010)

You go as fast as you can away on a planned escape rout at a 45 degree angle from the falling tree.


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## Slamm (Dec 2, 2010)

380LGR said:


> You go as fast as you can away on a planned escape rout at a 45 degree angle from the falling tree.



Everytime? No matter what? Go 45 to the left or right?

Thanks,

Sam


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## hammerlogging (Dec 2, 2010)

To the right, just don't trip over that textboook.


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## 056 kid (Dec 2, 2010)

sierratree said:


> O.K. Folks. What's everyone's motus operandi when using their escape route? : Just run and boogie or face your danger as you leave? Thanks.



I would not advise running like a chicken, if for nothing else than it making you really tired. . .

Most of the time, if you face a tree in a reasonable direction, you will be fine at a relatively close distance to the stump. There are situations which call for vacating the area. Best thing you can do is to have it all planned out. Like "take 10 paces to said area then observe the tree falling" Its something that differs form tree to tree, so as long as you arent completely zoning out as the tree commits, you should be able to judge what needs to be done. . .


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## Tzed250 (Dec 2, 2010)

.

Depends on what's going on up top...

.


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## lfnh (Dec 2, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Sometimes all you can do is cut and run for your life, like this scary Rock Maple I dumped. The smell of veneer was just too strong! Lol
> John



Good post. Actions speak more than words could ever describe.

If there's no good way out, leave it.


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## atvguns (Dec 3, 2010)

I usually run till I am out of breath which equals approximatly 25 feet:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 3, 2010)

hammerlogging said:


> To the right, just don't trip over that textboook.



Lol, now that was funny! LMFAO.

45 degrees sometimes bad. I've seen fencerow hardwood trees drop as planned, but due to large lower limbs simply flopped over several feet to left or right of the stump because that bigger lower limb never broke.
So I learned to get back from the stump and not sideways unless all else was obvious.
John


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## joesawer (Dec 3, 2010)

Some good advice here. And some not so good. lol
I rarely run from a tree, but it is much more often that i take just a few calm steps, sometimes a few fast steps, and sometimes run like hell!!!


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## tlandrum (Dec 3, 2010)

i have actually had to dive under the skidder when a tree top broke out on the backlash and no way to get away from it other than under the skidder. not really a good feeling but the others there on site said it was funny to see me diving under there.


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## madhatte (Dec 3, 2010)

Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do, especially with "compromised" stems. Watch it tip, and go where the butt isn't gonna. Eyes up. You know where the saw is. You can't say the same of branches and tops.


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## The Count (Dec 3, 2010)

so basically you need strong and fast legs to match the saw....


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## slowp (Dec 3, 2010)

banshee67 said:


> anymore pics or videos of him cutting the monster snag? id love to see



Not that I know of. That wasn't a very good place to be during the cutting.
The butt basically exploded. It might have been safer to use explosives.


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## Slamm (Dec 3, 2010)

hammerlogging said:


> To the right, just don't trip over that textboook.



LOL, I was just wondering, as he wasn't specific on what direction, we are to take with each tree. I kinda like the concrete rule of run at a 45 away, and now you have simplified it even more with a single direction, LOL. 

Do we have an exact speed with, which to carry ourselves???

Do we just walk away, canter, lope, frolic, sidle, run like hell? Some one give me an exact speed and then maybe an exact distance and that should be it, LOL.

How about throwing the saw, do we throw the saw? Where and how far?

Thanks, just here to learn,

Sam


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## ChainsawmanXX (Dec 3, 2010)

alot of the times when falling in the woods, i like to stand somewhat next to the tree if its hardwood (Oak, Hickory what not) less chance of barberchair, but for maple and cedar ill step back a couple of steps... but one time i was falling a fair sized cedar stepped back a couple of steps and a grape fine came and smacked me across the head. so i guess if i was turned around running from the tree i would have seen it. BUT WATCHING THAT TREE FALL IS MAGIC! =D


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## Slamm (Dec 3, 2010)

ChainsawmanXX said:


> alot of the times when falling in the woods, i like to stand somewhat next to the tree if its hardwood (Oak, Hickory what not) less chance of barberchair, but for maple and cedar ill step back a couple of steps... but one time i was falling a fair sized cedar stepped back a couple of steps and a grape fine came and smacked me across the head. so i guess if i was turned around running from the tree i would have seen it. BUT WATCHING THAT TREE FALL IS MAGIC! =D



Just asking, how does standing next to the tree watching it fall over make it less likely to barberchair?

Sam


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## ChainsawmanXX (Dec 3, 2010)

Slamm said:


> Just asking, how does standing next to the tree watching it fall over make it less likely to barberchair?
> 
> Sam


 What i ment is in Oak, Hickory hardwoods there is a less chance of them barbercharing then Pine, Maple etc. lol sorry Im not the best at puttin words together.


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## Slamm (Dec 3, 2010)

ChainsawmanXX said:


> What i ment is in Oak, Hickory hardwoods there is a less chance of them barbercharing then Pine, Maple etc. lol sorry Im not the best at puttin words together.



Ah yes, I wasn't quite following what you were saying.
Sam


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## Oldtimer (Dec 3, 2010)

Ya cuts the tree, ya KNOWS DAMN WELL WHERE IT'S GONNA GO, and DAMN WELL WHAT IT WILL DO WHEN IT WILL HIT trees/rocks/stumps/hillsides/skidders/powerlines/whatever...
Then ya takes a few steps in the proper direction, THEN ya watches the tree until it's well on it's way, THEN YA LOOKS UP FOR INBOUND DEATH.


Beavers don't have a planned escape route. They step aside and watch.


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## teatersroad (Dec 3, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Sometimes all you can do is cut and run for your life, like this scary Rock Maple I dumped. The smell of veneer was just too strong! Lol
> John
> 
> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/X9Co0ieERww?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/X9Co0ieERww?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>



that made me laugh.

hope I don't die cutting timber, but for the life of me I can't think of a way I hope I do die (edit> well maybe laying in the grass, listening to the birds sing, nodding off and crossing over in some opium stupor would be an easy way to take it). gotta think in most cases it's a shorter leap out of the way sideways than longways, face your danger and watch your step.. I guess.


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## cantoo (Dec 3, 2010)

yukonsawman, that tree sure looked to come down fast. I try to cut really slow and delicate when I am finishing cutting and look up, as soon as I see the tree start to lean I stop cutting and start my escape. I sometimes even stop cutting and wait a few seconds to see if it is doing something it shouldn't be doing. This gives me a little more time to get away to a safe spot.


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## D&B Mack (Dec 3, 2010)

I just go to my happy place...well, it works at the dentist at least. :hmm3grin2orange:

Personally, I don't like the theory of "Do this". Every situation is different. But always watch the top, study/observe the tree, and do what is necessary to stay safe. That's what I tell my guys at least, then I watch the running of bulls as trees start dropping.


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## LumberjkChamp (Dec 3, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Beavers don't have a planned escape route. They step aside and watch.



Funny you should mention beavers. I was sort of pondering the same thing a while back. Then again, why would they plan an escape route when they set the tree up to go astray right from the start? They use the "face it all around" cut. I wonder how many "buy the farm" on account of their reckless cutting?


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## 380LGR (Dec 3, 2010)

hammerlogging said:


> To the right, just don't trip over that textboook.



No but i did stay at a holiday inn last night....


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## Rounder (Dec 3, 2010)

hammerlogging said:


> To the right, just don't trip over that textboook.



Lol, I just spit up a little beer over that one - Sam


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## slowp (Dec 3, 2010)

And another one. I think I owe him a pie.  

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## Gologit (Dec 3, 2010)

slowp said:


> And another one. I think I owe him a pie.



Huckleberry? I'll start watching the mailbox.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 3, 2010)

slowp said:


> And another one. I think I owe him a pie.


 Cool vid, It's impossible to get sick of it.
John

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## Gypo Logger (Dec 4, 2010)

cantoo said:


> yukonsawman, that tree sure looked to come down fast. I try to cut really slow and delicate when I am finishing cutting and look up, as soon as I see the tree start to lean I stop cutting and start my escape. I sometimes even stop cutting and wait a few seconds to see if it is doing something it shouldn't be doing. This gives me a little more time to get away to a safe spot.



I had most of the cut done already before I completed the cut for the vid.
That one got sized up many times before I tackled it. Note I dropped the saw after running about 20 ft. Lol

The stump is not a safe place to be, especially when felling uphill. Even running 45 degrees is not safe either as in this vid.
John

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## dingeryote (Dec 4, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Cool vid, It's impossible to get sick of it.
> John
> 
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LOL!!

Just had to get that last jab and rake on the hinge corner.
Boots were already three steps away, waiting for the rest of the guy to catch up! :hmm3grin2orange:
I gotta get me some of them boots.:biggrinbounce2:

I have had those little cartoon puffs of dust shoot outta my boots a time or two, and even left a Dinger imprint on a tree for watching one way and scootin' another. 

Throwbacks ,and the Butt going all crazy from tops rolling off other trees are what creep me out the most.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 4, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> LOL!!
> 
> Just had to get that last jab and rake on the hinge corner.
> Boots were already three steps away, waiting for the rest of the guy to catch up! :hmm3grin2orange:
> ...


 Ya, lol, those throwbacks get many a faller. It's fine if you're clearcutting, but another this all together when trying to steer them thru other trees.
I think I wore out those boots! lol
John

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## Oldtimer (Dec 4, 2010)

You guys out there chopping large wood with no helmet....I can't abide not wearing a mellon protector.


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## 48"BAR PINCHER (Dec 4, 2010)

GOL teaches a MINIMUM of 15 feet from the stump after cutting the trigger before the tree impacts the ground on preferably a 45degree angle on the safe side of the tree. This is a great guidline but obviously is not always possible. Some trees only have a side that is not as dangerous as the rest but none safe! They came up with this distance by using insurance co statistics that showed that approximately 90% of all felling accidents occur within 10 feet of the stump. When you bore cut and use a trigger there is usually no need to run but a good fast walk sideways while watching the tree on a predetermined and cleared escape route works for me. Ditto whoever commented on the collateral shrapnel that get dropped by neighboring trees. That is often the more dangerous stuff than the tree you are felling.
I'll quietly stand by for a bit while you west coasties throw a GOL ####storm at me


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## Gologit (Dec 4, 2010)

48"BAR PINCHER said:


> GOL teaches...
> 
> I'll quietly stand by for a bit while you west coasties throw a GOL ####storm at me



Hey, no problem. Nobody out here takes GOL seriously anyway. Most of us who make our living in the woods recognize the fact that GOL only impresses people who don't know any better.

That being said I'll admit that GOL has some good information and ideas. They're just not applicable to any kind of real world situation that we might deal with .

GOL is a great tool for someone with little or no practical experience, a total and unquestioning trust that the application of certain techniques will always and without fail produce the desired results, the ability to dismiss without examination any other methods than those taught by GOL, and to look upon those of us who choose not to believe in the teachings of GOL as some kind of unwashed heathen. GOL devotees tend to get all glassy eyed and speak in hushed and reverent monotones when discussing their teachings and their beliefs.
You know...kinda like Jehova's Witnesses with chainsaws.

Couple all of that with the tendency to over-think even the simplest of tasks, a very limited methodology, the herd instinct of a lemming, and you have the perfect candidate for a GOL course.

But, like I said, that's okay. Those of us who know what we're doing are used to those that don't.


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## LumberjkChamp (Dec 4, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Hey, no problem. Nobody out here takes GOL seriously anyway. Most of us who make our living in the woods recognize the fact that GOL only impresses people who don't know any better.
> 
> That being said I'll admit that GOL has some good information and ideas. They're just not applicable to any kind of real world situation that we might deal with .
> 
> ...



Great post. Very well articulated. Got some rep. coming your way for it.

I do, however, have a question. Is GOL a good course to learn basic saw handling skills? I have heard about and done some limited reading on GOL and I think like you mentioned in your post it may be geared more toward the person with limited to no experience in the woods. Can you elaborate more on your opinion of GOL's basic power saw handling practices?


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## Gologit (Dec 4, 2010)

Lumberjkchamp...Now you've done it...you've forced me to say something _nice_ about GOL. 

From what I understand from having talked to people who've taken the course, their safety training is really pretty good. Apparently they place a real emphasis on safe saw handling...as they should. They're big on PPE and that's another plus.

Too many people just go buy a saw and start cutting. Some of them get away with it. The others get stitches, a prosthetic device, or a memorial service.

If a person doesn't have the chance to work with an experienced hand in the woods I'd say that some kind of formal safety training would be a good idea. GOL might be the only option for some people. If nothing else it might teach a beginner how not to hurt himself with a saw.

But look at it the same way as when you learned to ride a bike...at first you use the training wheels. Later on on, when you get your balance, you can make up your own mind how to ride.


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## hammerlogging (Dec 4, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Lumberjkchamp...Now you've done it...you've forced me to say something _nice_ about GOL.
> 
> From what I understand from having talked to people who've taken the course, their safety training is really pretty good. Apparently they place a real emphasis on safe saw handling...as they should. They're big on PPE and that's another plus.
> 
> ...



Exactly.


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## forestryworks (Dec 4, 2010)

They don't teach looking up a whole lot. You have to look up to know what is going on.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 4, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> You guys out there chopping large wood with no helmet....I can't abide not wearing a mellon protector.



Hello Oldtimer, most guys wear hardhats because they'd get fired if they didn't.
That doesn't mean the oldtimers wear wrong or indifferent because they didn't.
They just weren't in vogue then.
Ironicly I can't go anywhere without a seatbelt.
Injuries aren't caused by the lack of hardhats anymore than headaches are caused by the lack of aspirin.
At least if I get hit on the head I won't hear it because of my stupid looking hearing protection. Lol
Gypo

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## 48"BAR PINCHER (Dec 4, 2010)

Cool. I stood by a little while. Unfortunately you GOL nay sayers are not only flat out 100% wrong but folks that want to cut wood for a living and live for a long time to tell about it do follow their general practices. Not saying here that all of you nay sayers are wrong....just most of you. I used to cut like most do for years then I wised up. Second you are all completely off base here slamming GOL and are taking the original question of this thread to a borderline hijack. The question was about how far to get away from the stump roughly. Not how to slam GOL and not answer the man's question. Third is several states require some form of this kind of training for their own employees and company w/c insurance policies. Fourth is most colleges that currently teach logging practices (Paul Smith's, Univ of Wisc, to name 2) base alot of their cirriculum around GOL practices. If you all are so worried that it's for j-off novices and happy homeowners, maybe you should let these schools and GOL know that they are all stupid and unsafe for teaching your future helpers and employees such ridiculous, wasteful, unproductive, unsafe habits to this generation and a few to come and you all should be hired on immediately as professors to teach them the right way to do things.
Now that I hijacked this thread myself, I'll let the ####storm continue:yoyo:


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 4, 2010)

I don't think they are bashing GOL as such, they are just indicating that GOL is nothing more than a primer. It's hard won experience that makes a faller.
However, it's frustrating to see someone freshly emerge from a timber felling workshop that they paid good money for and they assume their a "faller".
Most naysayers are looking at this GOL from a professional point of view.
I suspect that most GOL graduates don't even get a job in the woods and just want to work in their own woodlot and there is nothing wrong with that.
As soon as I see someone do the "nutcracker" start, you can tell they went to GOL or read a book. Lol
John


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## forestryworks (Dec 4, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I don't think they are bashing GOL as such, they are just indicating that GOL is nothing more than a primer. It's hard won experience that makes a faller.
> However, it's frustrating to see someone freshly emerge from a timber felling workshop that they paid good money for and they assume their a "faller".
> Most naysayers are looking at this GOL from a professional point of view.
> I suspect that most GOL graduates don't even get a job in the woods and just want to work in their own woodlot and there is nothing wrong with that.
> ...



I'm out of rep, but good post John.


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## teatersroad (Dec 4, 2010)

48"BAR PINCHER said:


> Cool. I stood by a little while. Unfortunately you GOL nay sayers are not only flat out 100% wrong but folks that want to cut wood for a living and live for a long time to tell about it do follow their general practices. Not saying here that all of you nay sayers are wrong....just most of you. I used to cut like most do for years then I wised up. Second you are all completely off base here slamming GOL and are taking the original question of this thread to a borderline hijack. The question was about how far to get away from the stump roughly. Not how to slam GOL and not answer the man's question. Third is several states require some form of this kind of training for their own employees and company w/c insurance policies. Fourth is most colleges that currently teach logging practices (Paul Smith's, Univ of Wisc, to name 2) base alot of their cirriculum around GOL practices. If you all are so worried that it's for j-off novices and happy homeowners, maybe you should let these schools and GOL know that they are all stupid and unsafe for teaching your future helpers and employees such ridiculous, wasteful, unproductive, unsafe habits to this generation and a few to come and you all should be hired on immediately as professors to teach them the right way to do things.
> Now that I hijacked this thread myself, I'll let the ####storm continue:yoyo:



do you cut in that wind?


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## Gologit (Dec 4, 2010)

48"BAR PINCHER said:


> ... If you all are so worried that it's for j-off novices and happy homeowners, maybe you should let these schools and GOL know that they are all stupid and unsafe for teaching your future helpers and employees such ridiculous, wasteful, unproductive, unsafe habits to this generation and



A couple of years ago I was opening up roads and waterhole access on a fire. We were getting clobbered and I needed some help fast so I borrowed a couple of guys from a thinning crew that was camped nearby. Their foreman told me they were the best two fallers he had and that they'd both had the entire GOL course and some college classes besides.

If what they showed me that day was an example of what GOL teaches in the way of cutting techniques I hope to never see it again. It was a straight chop and drop, lay didn't matter...neither did lead. We were just pushing the stuff off the side of the road so the water tankers could get in.
My two GOL guys started out badly and stayed that way most of the morning. They were either hung up, broke down, complaining about the steep ground and brush, falling down and whining about it, out of gas in the back cut, or falling stuff on each other. I told them to stay two tree lengths apart and one of them wanted to know where the measuring tape was. I was spending more time cutting them out than I was on my own stuff. I gave them a quicky class in the Humboldt face but they still went back to bore cutting when they had a chance. And slow? You never saw slow like those two guys.
We got a little break about noon and I took them back to their camp. I told their foreman if that was the best they had I felt darn sorry for him. I raided a convict crew and got a couple of their guys to help me finish the day. They'd learned to cut from the guards and the other convicts and they did a fine job.

So...if I had depend on future GOL and college students for employees I'd probably give them a good leaving alone. They know a lot I guess...but they're useless in the woods unless they've had some real world practical experience.

The "I know what I'm doing 'cause I got a piece of paper that says so" attitude doesn't make it in the woods. Never has. Never will.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 4, 2010)

Gologit said:


> A couple of years ago I was opening up roads and waterhole access on a fire. We were getting clobbered and I needed some help fast so I borrowed a couple of guys from a thinning crew that was camped nearby. Their foreman told me they were the best two fallers he had and that they'd both had the entire GOL course and some college classes besides.
> 
> If what they showed me that day was an example of what GOL teaches in the way of cutting techniques I hope to never see it again. It was a straight chop and drop, lay didn't matter...neither did lead. We were just pushing the stuff off the side of the road so the water tankers could get in.
> My two GOL guys started out badly and stayed that way most of the morning. They were either hung up, broke down, complaining about the steep ground and brush, falling down and whining about it, out of gas in the back cut, or falling stuff on each other. I told them to stay two tree lengths apart and one of them wanted to know where the measuring tape was. I was spending more time cutting them out than I was on my own stuff. I gave them a quicky class in the Humboldt face but they still went back to bore cutting when they had a chance. And slow? You never saw slow like those two guys.
> ...


 Good post and right on the money.
Can you imagine my frustration when I was hired on a road widening crew with 2 "certified fallers". They both thought their chit didn't stink and that I was there to pack their gas and limb their trees.
The first faller was getting 64 $/hr, the second faller was getting 48$/hr, I was getting 24$, because I wasn't certified. These so called fallers used every excuse in the book not to work, their favourite being the wind was too strong.
I was humble at first, but when they tried to boss me around, I told them to go sit on a stump and I'd do the whole job alone. BTW they were afraid of my 372 and prefered their limp wristed 365's with 28" bars. They even asked me how to file!
The safety chit was over the top and after I dumped many trees the big honcho safety guy came around and said because I wasn't certified I couldn't cut anything bigger than 6" dia. Both these guys got fired for various reasons.
If a guys any ####### good he's workin for himself.
So the jokes on me, had I gone to GOL and graduated, then I'd be the mang and getting the 64$/hr. So who's stupid, me or the GOL graduate?
John


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## FSburt (Dec 4, 2010)

Alright I can't stand it just lurking in this thread with out putting my 2cents. I am a student of the watch the top as you move along your escape route. I have had 2 close calls with crap coming at me from above. 1st one was when I worked up north out of Orleans and we were cutting on a cable block falling hardwoods as prep before burning. Well I am cutting on a wonderfull tree called a chinquapin which was forked up about 50 feet. Well I am standing on slash that is over 5 feet deep and was perched on a couple of logs while I cut the tree, I fell the tree with the fork and low and behold one of the tops peels back and starts heading down at me. While trying to escape I fall in hole in the slash and fall back and am staring at this top headed right at me and there is nothing I could do as I was stuck to my waist in slash,the creator was looking out for me that day as I should have died but the top fell over the top of me and since I was kinda underneath the slash a bit I survived. Episode #2 was down on the Sierra where I work now I was falling fire killed pine for planting site prep and was falling this 35" dbh pine up out of the drainage. I was kinda in a quick sand type mud bogg so I standing on some limbs to help keep me from sinking in the mud and as the tree went over the lowest large limb caught a dead live oak and bent it over and threw the limb back at me. As I was escaping I took my eyes off the tree so I could see the easy areas to not get bogged down in, when I got away I turned back and bam that limb put the hurt to me right in the chest and face. Well I probably would have died again had this limb been from a green tree and heavy but since the tree was dead over 2 yrs I got a bruised chest out it. I like to see what is coming at me and always try to watch the top as am escaping. Just seen too many close calls with others that I cannot bring myself not to look. 
Check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7frdBq-4v0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEpr7KuzIDI


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 4, 2010)

Most of the time when a fatality, injury or close call happens, there is not enough known about the emotional state of the victim.
Since only one thought can occupy the mind at any one time, it's hard to say what the victim was thinking about when the casualty happened.
Falling timber is a very intimate and enjoyable experience, but if the operators mind is on other things, like marital problems, financial problems or simply being pushed or ridiculed by other crew members, this can substantialy stack the deck.
Of the eight lost time injuries I've had in the woods, most of them could be attributed to my mental state, something that is rarely talked about. So I think 50% of injuries are directly related to experience and the other 50% are related to mental state, or any combination thereof.
They're coming to take me away Haha!
John


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## coastalfaller (Dec 4, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Hey, no problem. Nobody out here takes GOL seriously anyway. Most of us who make our living in the woods recognize the fact that GOL only impresses people who don't know any better.
> 
> That being said I'll admit that GOL has some good information and ideas. They're just not applicable to any kind of real world situation that we might deal with .
> 
> ...



Very well said! Tried to rep you, but alas, I have to spread some around first!


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## coastalfaller (Dec 4, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Most of the time when a fatality, injury or close call happens, there is not enough known about the emotional state of the victim.
> Since only one thought can occupy the mind at any one time, it's hard to say what the victim was thinking about when the casualty happened.
> Falling timber is a very intimate and enjoyable experience, but if the operators mind is on other things, like marital problems, financial problems or simply being pushed or ridiculed by other crew members, this can substantialy stack the deck.
> Of the eight lost time injuries I've had in the woods, most of them could be attributed to my mental state, something that is rarely talked about. So I think 50% of injuries are directly related to experience and the other 50% are related to mental state, or any combination thereof.
> ...



Bang on there, John.
Great thread, though, some really good posts in here. Keep it up.


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## coastalfaller (Dec 5, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I don't think they are bashing GOL as such, they are just indicating that GOL is nothing more than a primer. It's hard won experience that makes a faller.
> However, it's frustrating to see someone freshly emerge from a timber felling workshop that they paid good money for and they assume their a "faller".
> Most naysayers are looking at this GOL from a professional point of view.
> I suspect that most GOL graduates don't even get a job in the woods and just want to work in their own woodlot and there is nothing wrong with that.
> ...



Very well said again. Here in BC, fallers have to be "certified" to fall timber now. We also used to be able to break in guys who we thought might make good fallers. Now because of a few guys taking extreme liberties in the breaking in of new guys we are all forced to choose from a pool of freshly minted fallers out of a month long course. 

Much the same as what you're saying, John, alot of these guys come out of this month long course with that attitude that "now I'm a faller and I'm worth full rate!" I've yet to see one that's worth full rate right away. Don't get me wrong, some will be excellent fallers some day. But that's the key, "some day". 

I had one guy demanding full rate, saying he was now certified. I took him out with me and watched. I'll spare you the painful details, but needless to say, it didn't go well. He had his panties in a bunch insisting he's certified and therefore should make full rate. I told him that all that meant was that now he's certified to actually start learning the ropes. He didn't like that and left. I heard he tried a few other outfits and has now left the industry. Too bad really. If he would have been able to keep his ego in check he might have turned out to be a decent faller.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 5, 2010)

coastalfaller said:


> Very well said again. Here in BC, fallers have to be "certified" to fall timber now. We also used to be able to break in guys who we thought might make good fallers. Now because of a few guys taking extreme liberties in the breaking in of new guys we are all forced to choose from a pool of freshly minted fallers out of a month long course.
> 
> Much the same as what you're saying, John, alot of these guys come out of this month long course with that attitude that "now I'm a faller and I'm worth full rate!" I've yet to see one that's worth full rate right away. Don't get me wrong, some will be excellent fallers some day. But that's the key, "some day".
> 
> I had one guy demanding full rate, saying he was now certified. I took him out with me and watched. I'll spare you the painful details, but needless to say, it didn't go well. He had his panties in a bunch insisting he's certified and therefore should make full rate. I told him that all that meant was that now he's certified to actually start learning the ropes. He didn't like that and left. I heard he tried a few other outfits and has now left the industry. Too bad really. If he would have been able to keep his ego in check he might have turned out to be a decent faller.


 Good post, it's the doctorite that must be the undoing. Just like the Wizard of Oz and the Cowardly Lion.
I'm so glad I didn't GOL, I probably would have never gotten over myself. Lol
If you need any fallers down there, I'm game and I'll work and shut my mouth, as I need a job badly now, as firewood quite ain't cutting it here in the north. It would be a slice, even if I don't pan out but I'm low maintanance.
But if I do pan out, maybe I can get the certification they said they would grandfather.
And BTW, I will wear chaps and hardhat.
Thanks,
John


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## chappy2100 (Dec 5, 2010)

cantoo said:


> yukonsawman, that tree sure looked to come down fast. I try to cut really slow and delicate when I am finishing cutting and look up, as soon as I see the tree start to lean I stop cutting and start my escape. I sometimes even stop cutting and wait a few seconds to see if it is doing something it shouldn't be doing. This gives me a little more time to get away to a safe spot.



i agree... if you finish your cut slow enough you should have plenty of time to take a few steps back and watcher go.. gettin too hot and quick in the sticks is how you get hurt


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## LumberjkChamp (Dec 5, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Lumberjkchamp...Now you've done it...you've forced me to say something _nice_ about GOL.
> 
> From what I understand from having talked to people who've taken the course, their safety training is really pretty good. Apparently they place a real emphasis on safe saw handling...as they should. They're big on PPE and that's another plus.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the follow-up reply. The importance of safe saw handling and PPE cannont be over stated. 

I'll try to keep my post on topic from here on out.

To the OP:

As far as proper escape path routes, planning them before any actual tree cutting is done is one of the most important rules to follow. It shouldn't change. Too many times I catch myself starting the face without having cleared or planned my escape path(s). It is also good to have a backup path.

Some have mentioned looking up at the tree while cutting. This is some very good advice. Lots of hazards in a trees canopy. Look for dead limbs and tops, hung-up branches, etc. In addition, this will also be your first indicator (the top of the tree you're cutting) that the tree is commiting or maybe doing something that you don't want it to do (like set back). Moving clouds can be deceptive. They can fool you into thinking that trees are moving when they in fact may not -watch for that. 

When planning and cutting out you're escape route assess the integrity of the surrounding trees. Are any dead or dying, do they lean on or do their branches entangle with those of the tree you plan on cutting. Often times, when the tree you are falling commits, the above mentioned hazards can cause the adjacent trees to fall or be pulled down with the one being cut. A situation like that puts the cutter in serious danger.

In addition to figuring how the cut tree will behave while falling and when it hits the ground, the above mentioned potential hazards are some of the problems I look for and consider when planning an escape route. The operatve word in this case is "some." Good advice is in this thread already, given by professionals with thousands of hours of experience. Read it twice. I have.


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## sierratree (Dec 5, 2010)

*escape route reply*

Well, o.k. All my fault for bringing up the escape route subject. Guess I opened a can of worms. Great replies and input. Thanks much.


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## Gologit (Dec 5, 2010)

sierratree said:


> Well, o.k. All my fault for bringing up the escape route subject. Guess I opened a can of worms. Great replies and input. Thanks much.



You didn't do anything wrong and there's no fault on your part. This forum is kinda like your average small town logger's
tavern...you throw out a topic of conversation or ask a question and then the fun begins. There are as many different opinions on here as there are people and there's bound to be some bickering.
Even those of us who don't agree with each other will make an honest attempt at answering your questions and giving whatever help you're looking for. The "help" just gets a little loud at times.

Welcome to AS.


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## GASoline71 (Dec 5, 2010)

Some great posts Bob... I just don't even wanna invest the time to yak with a GOL guy anymore...

"I bore cut... therefore I am safer than you..."

Gary


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## bitzer (Dec 6, 2010)

Some nice vids Yukon-John and great posts! 

Great posts too Bob! 

Since when do oaks and hickories have less tendancy to chair? 

That whole "letn em down slow and easy," trick is a myth. My boss always used to say that. Drove me nuts. I've seen him barber chair several that never should have while he was "letn em down slow and easy"

I think it was forestryworks that hit it on the head with GOL doesn't teach them to look up a whole lot. 

To me the GOL sounds like drivers ed. Formulated and mechanical for easy teaching, but damn all that #### goes out the window quick when you get into real world situations.


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## sierratree (Dec 6, 2010)

*Gol*

Gary: Don't know much about GOL.who what where when why.pros and cons, etc. Thanks.


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## Gologit (Dec 6, 2010)

Hey Gary...I Googled GOL. They have GOL hats! Thought maybe I'd order a couple and raffle them off at the next GTG...just to see what use they were put to.


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## Gologit (Dec 6, 2010)

sierratree said:


> Gary: Don't know much about GOL.who what where when why.pros and cons, etc. Thanks.



 Yup, typical FS person...wants _us_ to do the work and they'll reap the benefits. 

Do a search on here if you can stand the debates. They have a website, also.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 6, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Hey Gary...I Googled GOL. They have GOL hats! Thought maybe I'd order a couple and raffle them off at the next GTG...just to see what use they were put to.


 Bob, you are a GOL graduate aren't you, I see it in your user name. Come clean now, is this you in the pic on the right? Lol
http://www.hullforest.com/images/forestry/wood_workers/wood_workers.jpg
GOL, has made big bucks for the founder and that's what it's mainly about, but still a good thing for the newbie.
John


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## Gologit (Dec 7, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Bob, you are a GOL graduate aren't you, I see it in your user name. Come clean now, is this you in the pic on the right? Lol
> http://www.hullforest.com/images/forestry/wood_workers/wood_workers.jpg
> GOL, has made big bucks for the founder and that's what it's mainly about, but still a good thing for the newbie.
> John



LOL...John, that guy is a lot better looking than me and better color coordinated, too. And maybe just a little bit younger.

And I agree with you that for somebody with no experience it's probably a good way to learn some basic safety stuff. No argument there.

It's the "our way is the best and only way" thing that I object to. Hell, we probably use more of their techniques out here than they realize. We just don't feel that their methods are the best to the total exclusion of everything else. They aren't. Never have been. Never will be.


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## FSburt (Dec 7, 2010)

Whats up with the GOL shot of its students do you have to wear all orange and be color coordinated to attend. I wonder how hot all that gear is to wear on a steep hot cable unit on the left coast. opcorn:


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## 056 kid (Dec 7, 2010)

not as hot as a steep cable unit on the east coast,(humidity).

I dont know why people are such suckers for the GOL.


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## FSburt (Dec 7, 2010)

Alright humidity does even things a bit.


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## slowp (Dec 7, 2010)

056 kid said:


> I dont know why people are such suckers for the GOL.



Look at the acronym. It spells GOL as in By Gol, I might could be able to get a tree to go where I want it.

Sorry, the coffee hasn't kicked in or been sipped enough. By Gol the root canal is a little heat sensitive this morning. Owie. 

I'll have to go look at the clothing offered on their web site.


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## FSburt (Dec 7, 2010)

uh oh this GOL stuff has me hooked on the lip I had better try to shake to hook and swim on to deeper waters. :biggrinbounce2:


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## GASoline71 (Dec 7, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Hey Gary...I Googled GOL. They have GOL hats! Thought maybe I'd order a couple and raffle them off at the next GTG...just to see what use they were put to.



HAHAHA! I want a hat!

Gary


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## Gologit (Dec 7, 2010)

GASoline71 said:


> HAHAHA! I want a hat!
> 
> Gary



PM me your address. I may have to pick up cans by the side of the road to afford one because, like most GOL things, they're over priced and appear to be rather poorly designed. But I'll do it.


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## GASoline71 (Dec 7, 2010)

I'll just start drinkin' more beer, and I'll send ya the squashed cans... 

Gary


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## sierratree (Aug 3, 2011)

*Put the saw down, and go*

Since my initial thread, I have learned alot.........Sometimes it's hard to change your ways.....but in this business, if there's a safer and better way, you should try it out.....so now, more often than not......when the tree is commited to the undercut, I will take a couple of steps to my escape route, put down the saw instead of hauling it out with me, and get out. The little extra time the saw can slow you down can make the difference of you getting clobbered.


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## Rounder (Aug 3, 2011)

Gypo Logger said:


> Most of the time when a fatality, injury or close call happens, there is not enough known about the emotional state of the victim.
> Since only one thought can occupy the mind at any one time, it's hard to say what the victim was thinking about when the casualty happened.
> Falling timber is a very intimate and enjoyable experience, but if the operators mind is on other things, like marital problems, financial problems or simply being pushed or ridiculed by other crew members, this can substantialy stack the deck.
> Of the eight lost time injuries I've had in the woods, most of them could be attributed to my mental state, something that is rarely talked about. So I think 50% of injuries are directly related to experience and the other 50% are related to mental state, or any combination thereof.
> ...



This is probably the best post I've come across on this forum. -Sam


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## sierratree (Aug 4, 2011)

Well, I'm humbled by your post........you can't have an attitude in this business. If you do, you're looking for trouble. Thanks again.....


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## RandyMac (Aug 4, 2011)

There are some good running scenes in this video.

‪Old Growth Redwood Logging‬&rlm; - YouTube


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## paccity (Aug 4, 2011)

great vids randy, rep ya but can't. love the one guy buckin, keepin his eye on the prize.:msp_wink:


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## RandyMac (Aug 4, 2011)

Oh yeah
you keep your wits about you or someone will be scraping them into a bucket.


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## Gologit (Aug 5, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Oh yeah
> you keep your wits about you or someone will be scraping them into a bucket.


 
Yup. The guy bucking that had the runaway was pretty fast on his feet. Good thing, too.


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## RandyMac (Aug 5, 2011)

The main reason I sidelined myself was I could no longer run fast or dodge quick. Being half a step off is all it can take and I was at half speed on a good day. 
I still want one more.


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## slowp (Aug 5, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> The main reason I sidelined myself was I could no longer run fast or dodge quick. Being half a step off is all it can take and I was at half speed on a good day.
> I still want one more.


 
Eggzackly. I couldn't even move or think fast enough to save my boss from death at the scale ramp. He'd stepped on one of their trick ladders and started swinging to the ground from the ramp. The logger, who was along, was slow but quicker than I, and grabbed the ladder in time. Scaling ramps are full of hazards, even the little blue outhouse is said to be life threatening...most stop at the mini mart down the road.


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## Joe46 (Aug 5, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> The main reason I sidelined myself was I could no longer run fast or dodge quick. Being half a step off is all it can take and I was at half speed on a good day.
> I still want one more.


 
Yup so do I. My brain still knows what it wants my body to do, it just doesn't get there quick enough anymore


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## Gologit (Aug 5, 2011)

Joe46 said:


> Yup so do I. My brain still knows what it wants my body to do, it just doesn't get there quick enough anymore


 
LOL...Or the brain tells the body to do something and the body says..."You better not. I'll embarrass you if you try that". And you try it _anyway._ And get embarrassed.


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## 2dogs (Aug 5, 2011)

I worked 5 pretty hard days this week so tomorrow and Sunday I will have to spend some time on the couch with an icepack on my knee.


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## sierratree (Aug 6, 2011)

*another great escape*

‪FS SAW ESCAPE DEMO‬&rlm; - YouTube


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