# Basic knots, Which should a trainee start with?



## O'Bruadair (May 11, 2012)

From talking with local utility arborists and tree workers I get the impression that most of the larger line-clearance companies still use the old tried and true single rope/taut line hitch rig rather than using a separate "split-tail" and a Blakes hitch. Am I correct?

If I am correct then wouldn't it make sense when training an entry level tree worker to teach and train with the taut line since he is most likely to start out with a line-clearance company? This of course would not preclude teaching the Blake's too but shouldn't the emphasis be on the taut line?

Opinions please.


----------



## tree md (May 11, 2012)

Most utility climbers I see working these days are using a split tail. As a matter of fact, all of them that I have observed in the past 5 years has been using a split tail (even the ones I saw in Alabama last year).

As far as teaching, I teach as I was taught and what has worked best for me. I start every prospect climber on a traditional closed system, using an open prussic. I was never a fan of the tautline or Blake's. I do think it is important for a climber to learn how to descend on nothing but a rope, should the need arise for him to do so.


----------



## Pelorus (May 11, 2012)

Arboriculture ain't the Fire Service, with 150 years of tradition unimpeded by progress! 
I like and use Blakes hitch.
I'm happy to show anybody helping me everything I know, (all 5 minutes worth) but I do the climbing on a job. When my tired legs/body call it quits the equally tired equipment can get sold off or donated to a poor African village.


----------



## freeweight (May 11, 2012)

i think thay should be taught the blakes hitch myself ,really good one to start with 

simple and fast


----------



## KarlP (May 12, 2012)

half hitch, clove hitch, rolling hitch, slip knot - for getting the line in the tree and a thousand other uses
bowline - for sending a running bowline up a pull line and a thousand other uses
figure-8 - generic loop and stopper knot
anchor hitch - for tying the rope(s) to the saddle
blakes hitch - for getting off the ground


----------



## tree md (May 12, 2012)

When I started out I was made to learn 4 knots before I was allowed to get off the ground: open prussic, clove hitch, running bowline and butterfly knot.


----------



## O'Bruadair (May 12, 2012)

All the answers above not withstanding I think I have learned through other sources that my premise is certianly correct. Trainees for entry level line clearance jobs (and this is where most climbers get their initial experience, at least in my neck of the woods) need to learn to tie and use the old closed system with a taut line hitch. This is the method that they will be REQUIRED to use by the large line clearance companies. (again at least in my neck of the woods)

According to Asplundh's top line clearance man in my state (talked to him by phone this morning) this is what his company as well as Davey and Burford use. According to him too Asplundh at least has no plans to use anything else in the near future.

Again this does not preclude a trainee from learning other knots and systems. Its just that if he plans to go to work for a line clearance company he better be prepared to use a closed system with a tautline and if you are going to teach new climbers only one system this better be it. 

The fancy stuff , though it may be easier to work with and more efficient, can wait until a man gets more experience and goes into business for himself. Its not that other systems are not better in some ways its just that the larger companies are going to stick with the tried and true methods.


----------



## Pelorus (May 12, 2012)

I reckon that climbing on 3-strand manilla rope is a tried and true method as well.


----------



## Carburetorless (May 12, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> I reckon that climbing on 3-strand manilla rope is a tried and true method as well.



It is at AssPlunder.


----------



## O'Bruadair (May 12, 2012)

Only been on this forum two days but I already see what the moderator meant in his Playground Namecalling thread.


----------



## Gologit (May 12, 2012)

O'Bruadair said:


> Only been on this forum two days but I already see what the moderator meant in his Playground Namecalling thread.



Welcome to AS. There's a lot to be learned in this forum. It might not be presented in a way that you like or approve of but the combined knowledge of a lot of experienced people is available to you.

You asked a question, you got answers. This isn't Cub Scouts and sometimes things are a little rough. Stick around, learn something. If you get huffy and leave the only loss is to yourself.

But if you ask a question or ask for advice and then argue with the people who respond to you or talk down to them I doubt if you'll get much help.

Hey...I'll bet you've given this same lecture to some of your students.


----------



## O'Bruadair (May 12, 2012)

I asked a serious question but I was the one who was "talked down to". I asked the question in order to better help some 18 and 19 year olds who think they want to get into the tree care business. In order to do that that they need to be taught the BASICS that their potential first employers are going to REQUIRE of them. (adding the fancy stuff is fine, but they first need those basic skills.) I think I made that clear. Instead of a straight answer though I got what all the "experts" are using.

yep, it ain't cub scouts but I took this to be a forum for professionals. I guess I was wrong.


----------



## Carburetorless (May 12, 2012)

O'Bruadair said:


> I asked a serious question but I was the one who was "talked down to". I asked the question in order to better help some 18 and 19 year olds who think they want to get into the tree care business. In order to do that that they need to be taught the BASICS that their potential first employers are going to REQUIRE of them. (adding the fancy stuff is fine, but they first need those basic skills.) I think I made that clear. Instead of a straight answer though I got what all the "experts" are using.
> 
> yep, it ain't cub scouts but I took this to be a forum for professionals. I guess I was wrong.



Those 18/19 year olds are going to find out what their new employers require them to use regardless of what anyone here thinks, says, or does.

Actually I don't think it's a requirement so much as it is what they want to pay for.


----------



## O'Bruadair (May 12, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Those 18/19 year olds are going to find out what their new employers require them to use regardless of what anyone here thinks, says, or does.
> 
> Actually I don't think it's a requirement so much as it is what they want to pay for.



yep, of course you are right (in 1st sentence). But the greenhand that has a few basic skills and knows what will be required of him before he goes to work will have a "leg up" and will advance at a faster rate too. That was the reason behind the original question. I never said no one learns on the job.

Second sentence: I assume you mean that the companies are not willing to go the expense of more advanced systems and you may be right. Point is though the greenhand has to conform to what the company wants and the company's procedures. The one thing the greenhand needs most is work experience. Established "experts" can afford to dis the corporations and call them names. That 18 year old with no work experience does not have that luxury. He can not afford to call the people who are giving him a chance stupid or cheap. He has to conform to what the company wants if he wants a job.


----------



## Carburetorless (May 12, 2012)

O'Bruadair said:


> yep, of course you are right (in 1st sentence). But the greenhand that has a few basic skills and knows what will be required of him before he goes to work will have a "leg up" and will advance at a faster rate too. That was the reason behind the original question. I never said no one learns on the job.
> 
> Second sentence: I assume you mean that the companies are not willing to go the expense of more advanced systems and you may be right. Point is though the greenhand has to conform to what the company wants and the company's procedures. The one thing the greenhand needs most is work experience. Established "experts" can afford to dis the corporations and call them names. That 18 year old with no work experience does not have that luxury. He can not afford to call the people who are giving him a chance stupid or cheap. He has to conform to what the company wants if he wants a job.



Without that guy the company wouldn't have anyone to do the job, and I know they're too lazy or regal to do it themselves.

Honestly, in real world terms, I think the company wouldn't have a problem with a worker using something more productive, especially if the worker paid for it himself. 

The problem with larger companies is that they have a central accounting office who's job it is to insure the company doesn't loose it's profits, so cutting costs on things like climbing gear is bound to happen.


----------



## Pelorus (May 12, 2012)

O'Bruadair said:


> I asked a serious question but I was the one who was "talked down to". I asked the question in order to better help some 18 and 19 year olds who think they want to get into the tree care business. In order to do that that they need to be taught the BASICS that their potential first employers are going to REQUIRE of them. (adding the fancy stuff is fine, but they first need those basic skills.) I think I made that clear. Instead of a straight answer though I got what all the "experts" are using.
> 
> yep, it ain't cub scouts but I took this to be a forum for professionals. I guess I was wrong.



You asked for opinions. 
I think you are doing trainees a diservice by teaching them "the old tried and true single rope/taut line hitch rig rather than using a separate "split-tail" and a Blakes hitch." So I think you are incorrect; that is my opinion.
Just imagine if other professions like medicine or dentistry took the same approach to old school training that YOU seek to emulate re. a low cost simple "tried and true" approach. 
btw - Do you use a tried-and-true slide rule instead of a calculator?


----------



## O'Bruadair (May 12, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Without that guy the company wou[I[/I]ldn't have anyone to do the job, and I know they're too lazy or regal to do it themselves.
> 
> Honestly, in real world terms, I think the company wouldn't have a problem with a worker using something more productive, especially if the worker paid for it himself.
> 
> The problem with larger companies is that they have a central accounting office who's job it is to insure the company doesn't loose it's profits, so cutting costs on things like climbing gear is bound to happen.



"I think the company wouldn't have a problem with a worker using something more productive, especially if the worker paid for it himself."

Not according to what I am being told. The large companies here are not going to allow any other system to be used on their crews no matter what. Its the closed system taut line hitch or nothing (my way or the highway) "more productive" is just not an issue. This may sound "hide bound" and even stupid but that.s the way it is. Yes I am sure that expense has something to do with it. i'm sure fear of "something new" and worries about liability have something to do with it too. The whys of it though are irrelevant to my question. That's just the way it is and the greenhand must conform to that or they will find someone who will.


----------



## O'Bruadair (May 12, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> You asked for opinions.
> I think you are doing trainees a diservice by teaching them "the old tried and true single rope/taut line hitch rig rather than using a separate "split-tail" and a Blakes hitch." So I think you are incorrect; that is my opinion.
> Just imagine if other professions like medicine or dentistry took the same approach to old school training that YOU seek to emulate re. a low cost simple "tried and true" approach.
> btw - Do you use a tried-and-true slide rule instead of a calculator?



Again its not what is not what I or you think is best or most efficient that is relevant to the original question. What is relevant is what the large line clearance companies here (the largest source of entry level tree worker employment) are going to REQUIRE of their employees. I have found out that they are still MANDATING the closed system and taut line hitch. As long as this is so the emphasis in training must be the same. Who knows? They may change their procedures tomorrow but I don't think so.


----------



## ddhlakebound (May 12, 2012)

O'Bruadair said:


> Again its not what is not what I or you think is best or most efficient that is relevant to the original question. What is relevant is what the large line clearance companies here (the largest source of entry level tree worker employment) are going to REQUIRE of their employees. I have found out that they are still MANDATING the closed system and taut line hitch. As long as this is so the emphasis in training must be the same. Who knows? They may change their procedures tomorrow but I don't think so.



Sorry, but it sounds like a pile of BS to me.....

I've worked line clearance, 6 yrs ago. Half a dozen climbers out of our yard. There were some limitations on kit (like no steel core), but aside from that, we could climb with whatever we wanted as long as it met ansi requirements for life support gear. Last month I had the utility trimmers in to do a make safe for a trim job. Their climbing kits were as custom as mine. Last week I had the utility trimmers in to do a make safe for a removal over three phase, and again, different climber, custom kit. 

What you're saying MAY be accurate in your small corner of the world, but I doubt it. You've been told several times how it works. The company will buy you the barest basic gear. If you want better gear, shell out and buy it yourself. Do you really think any company out there is going to insist on spending company money on gear when the employee wants to spend their own money on gear? No.

Have you even seen real line clearance climbing and cutting being done? Could you recognize differences in kit, or is it all just rope and clips to you? Do you think all these line clearance companies go through their employees kits weekly to make sure they're using the cheapest gear available? 

So somebody who never leaves the office for a big tree company told you how it is in the air for all their climbers? Is that something like how it is?


----------



## tree md (May 13, 2012)

Well I know that in Birmingham Alabama at least, the utility climbers were using split tails. I probably met and talked to a half dozen Big Orange climbers while I was doing disaster relief there and all were using a split tail. Anyone who has done storm work in a disaster area knows how close in proximity you work to other climbers and utility workers. I have been climbing and had 3 or 4 climbers and bucket workers working on the surrounding properties. It is a regular party up there at times. Just look in the tree next door and wave to your neighbor. I had climbers from a few different Big O crews come on to my job site to say hello, talk and compare gear. Every Big O climber I met in Alabama was using a split tail. And that Is not info I got from the home office, that's what I observed in the field.


----------



## Carburetorless (May 13, 2012)

O'Bruadair said:


> "I think the company wouldn't have a problem with a worker using something more productive, especially if the worker paid for it himself."
> 
> Not according to what I am being told. The large companies here are not going to allow any other system to be used on their crews no matter what. Its the closed system taut line hitch or nothing (my way or the highway) "more productive" is just not an issue. This may sound "hide bound" and even stupid but that.s the way it is. Yes I am sure that expense has something to do with it. i'm sure fear of "something new" and worries about liability have something to do with it too. The whys of it though are irrelevant to my question. That's just the way it is and the greenhand must conform to that or they will find someone who will.



I beginning to think that this guy is the big company.


----------



## Soilarch (May 20, 2012)

All this other bologna aside:

Tautline
Blake's
Prussic
Clove Hitch
Bowline (& Running Bowline)


Have him get these down and he'll be ahead of the game. He won't have a "leg-up" on anybody though. His attitude will have more to do with advancement than his knowledge or ability. 

Around here Line Clearance spike everything. It's all a moot point though and comes down to attitude. He'll be intimately familiar with the chipper before he ties his first knot or ever leaves the ground.


----------



## Casper (Jun 18, 2012)

Soilarch said:


> All this other bologna aside:
> 
> Tautline
> Blake's
> ...



Here in Topeka Kansas , I started @ Wright Tree ( line clearnce of course ) I worked as a groundman in the rural area's outside of town, one crew, 3 guys ( foreman/journeyman/ my little as* no place for me to move up for right at a year ) I had to buy my own personal saddle just to start climbing, the other 2 saddles were way to big 4 me, and the basic knots was as quoted above. I learned them and that was it for quit some time. After that stint, I transfered in town, more crews and such, I ended up as foreman on year 3 not because I was "taught" or was just " the next guy in line" , it was of my nature to watch and learn. I picked up different styles from different people and made my own even some of my own climb knot's. I started off as foreman buying me a more suitable saddle ( freestyle ) and ran with it. It's not the knot's that will get your " foot in the door" it is your ambishon.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Jun 19, 2012)

Around here, they use what ever they want, if u get hired, u get handed someones old saddle to use, maybe u will get something new after a while. Most of the guys use their own gear and they tie in with whatever. Vt, swabash, blakes all of them. I know a lot of them have 2 sets, work basic set and custom side work set.


----------

