# Starting from scratch..



## Arkansashunter (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm starting to come up with ideas for starting my own logging business. I have some ideas, but no idea where to start.
It will be a couple of years before I'll be able to start anything as I'm currently 16, yep! 

got any ideas?


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## GASoline71 (Mar 24, 2010)

Arkansashunter said:


> got any ideas?



Yep... go to college!!!

Gary


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## indiansprings (Mar 24, 2010)

+1 on going to college or a good technical school. There just simply isn't any money in logging in your part of the country with oak bringing .25-.30 cents a foot, you'll prolly make more cutting firewood. Get you self and education or technical trade, at the rate tree's are being cut in this area, won't be a decent tree that will even make a tie in ten years. The economy is causing people to sell every walnut log that is any decent size.


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## dancan (Mar 24, 2010)

Listen to the advice given to you from GASoline71 and indiansprings , you can make a better , regular wage cutting meat for a butcher or grocery store so stay in school and get some skills !


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## ryan_marine (Mar 24, 2010)

Listen to us. Go get some training of some type. The logging industry is not what it is cracked up to be. There is easier ways to make money. I do it because I am cutting the trees for fire wood any ways. It is about even money between fire wood and timber. If it was not for what I get from the VA then I would be living in a cardboard box. I would also tell you to join either the navy or the air force.

Ray


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## 056 kid (Mar 24, 2010)

GASoline71 said:


> Yep... go to college!!!
> 
> Gary



G-man is absolutely right. Hell there is nothing that I would love to do more than run my own wood killing buisness, but it aint gonna happen right now,(lets pray it gets better guys). guys that have been at for 3 4 5 decades are getting by just barely, i mean JUST BARELY!!!. you have to figure, they have savings to dip into, they have lots of knowledge, they have a chit ton of parts to keep their equiptment going excetra..... Just get yo education and then go out and give it a try. 

I am trying to get mine, but I cant stay out of the woods for more than a few months with out feelig like a heroin addict scrathing for a fix.... you have not got there yet I presume so go get smart!!!!!!! get your MBA and do some forestry jank, then come out and RULE everyone around you........


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## BigE (Mar 24, 2010)

Trust me - go to school and get a good education, and then you can afford to play with chainsaws all you want.

My first job out of college back in '96 only paid $50k per year. Today that same job you'd start out at closer to $75k per year. I have no clue what money loggers make, but I know they don't pay them enough...

I'm not knocking loggers - I have a lot of respect for them. But the bottom has fallen out of the logging market, and I don't think you want to be there if you have a choice.


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## RVALUE (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm surprised no one mentioned that if you want to make a million dollars logging, start with two million. (or three..)

Alot of good advice here.

And FWIW, I am not a logger.


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## Arkansashunter (Mar 24, 2010)

I have been extensively exposed to the woods, that's one of the reason that I want to do this. My dad cuts about 400 ricks of firewood a year to sell, I own a chainsaw already and I've been using one for a long time.

I'll take your guys advice...
But I would like to someday work in the logging industry. How hard is it to get a job working for someone?


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## GASoline71 (Mar 24, 2010)

Out here where I grew up... you got a job in the woods because you were too hard headed to leave town in search of bigger and better things in life. So if you stayed behind... you were either farmin' or loggin'.

Or your family had been in the business for 200,000 years. To just start a loggin' company talkes lots and lots of money. I don't know how work is over yonder... but around these parts... loggin' jobs are scarce. Just ownin' a chainsaw and "bein' around the woods" usually won't net you a job. Most of the jobs don't require a saw anyways. Saw jobs are for fallers/buckers, and some of the landing rats. You gotta work your way through settin' chokes and chasin' to start off with...

It is a hard life... it will beat the crap out of your body. But again... I'm not familiar with loggin' hardwoods back east. No foolin'... stay in school... if you're determined to be a logger... then I say go for it... it's your life. But it won't be an easy one... 

Good luck kid...

Gary


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## Arkansashunter (Mar 24, 2010)

Lots to think about...

Of course owning my own saw and speiding time in the woods won't get me a job. It just got me wanting to be a logger. And I'm not entirely sure I'll stay here in Arkansas


I guess I just can't explain it...I want a hard life
I was just expelled from the boarding school I was attending...it was a real wake up call.

I want to be a logger...


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## logging22 (Mar 24, 2010)

Should stay in school. Logging aint easy. Its a way of life and to lots of people i know the end of their life. Dangerous job. But, if thats whats in your head, so be it. 

Edit: I also have a sawmill, skidder, forklift, loader and whatever else you might need to start.


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## Arkansashunter (Mar 24, 2010)

true


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## 380LGR (Mar 24, 2010)

The only idea you should have about this biz is how fast you can get away from it!!


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## Arkansashunter (Mar 24, 2010)

I don't want to get away from it...


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## 380LGR (Mar 24, 2010)

Just like when you were little mom said dont play with the outlet!!


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## redprospector (Mar 24, 2010)

Arkansashunter said:


> I don't want to get away from it...



If you're that dead set on being a part of the timber industry, my sugguestion would be to go to school and get a forestry degree. Then if you still want to be a logger, go for it. But if you decide different you could work for the Forest service, or state forestry. You'd still be in the woods, and deeply involved in logging.
You've been given a lot of good advice in this thread. Let's see what you can do with it.

Andy


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## Arkansashunter (Mar 25, 2010)

I'll take your guys advice...
Thanks for all the help...


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## GASoline71 (Mar 25, 2010)

So... for now... stay in school. Get a hot rod, chase all the girls, play sports, all that teenage stuff... you're not the first very young kid to pop up on here wantin' to be a logger.

I'll say to you what I have always said to them... no need to hang out on an internet forum with saw geeks and loggers... currently working loggers, and busted up loggers... go experience your young life... push the computer away and go fishin', rebuild a carburetor, get in trouble, fix up an old dirt bike, run around town with your buddies raisin' hell... 

Ya don't need to be hangin' around here... get out there kid. Before you know it you'll be thirty... and that's no joke. I'd give almost anything to spend my high school years over again. Of course knowing what I know now would be great...  

Good luck... and stop watchin' all the retarded loggin' shows on TV... that's only a small taste of what real loggin' is. and a lot of that crap is made up drama for tv.

Gary


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## joesawer (Mar 25, 2010)

GASoline71 said:


> So... for now... stay in school. Get a hot rod, chase all the girls, play sports, all that teenage stuff... you're not the first very young kid to pop up on here wantin' to be a logger.
> 
> I'll say to you what I have always said to them... no need to hang out on an internet forum with saw geeks and loggers... currently working loggers, and busted up loggers... go experience your young life... push the computer away and go fishin', rebuild a carburetor, get in trouble, fix up an old dirt bike, run around town with your buddies raisin' hell...
> 
> ...




Lol 
They where right about youth being wasted on the young!

If you have just have to work in the woods, go to work for some one else and tear up their equipment and hopefully they wont let you get in to deep over your head and get killed.
You have to start some where and you need to learn the markets and the connections for timber to cut, on top of all the skill, training, and equipment needed to harvest it.


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## outdoorlivin247 (Mar 25, 2010)

Reading your thread title made me think of a Carl Sagan Quote...

“If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.”


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## Arkansashunter (Mar 25, 2010)

Good stuff guys...and i'll take your advice.

Just for a note, I never watched ANY of those logging shows...
I rarely do hang out on the puter, sometimes I do..but not like the normal teenager.

How hard is it to get a job working for somebody in this economy?


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## outdoorlivin247 (Mar 25, 2010)

Arkansashunter said:


> Good stuff guys...and i'll take your advice.
> 
> Just for a note, I never watched ANY of those logging shows...
> I rarely do hang out on the puter, sometimes I do..but not like the normal teenager.
> ...



Easy if you are an honest, hard working individual...


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## 056 kid (Mar 25, 2010)

Arkansashunter said:


> Good stuff guys...and i'll take your advice.
> 
> Just for a note, I never watched ANY of those logging shows...
> I rarely do hang out on the puter, sometimes I do..but not like the normal teenager.
> ...



Depending on how much experience you have, it can be quite difficult even with the ability to get the job done. Mist loggers are getting by just barely..


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## GASoline71 (Mar 25, 2010)

Arkansashunter said:


> Good stuff guys...and i'll take your advice.
> 
> Just for a note, I never watched ANY of those logging shows...
> I rarely do hang out on the puter, sometimes I do..but not like the normal teenager.
> ...



I'm just a "hired gun"... I go fall stuff when I get called. I don't have to rig and dig on the landing and stuff. I go cut... I go home. I have a job that is not related to the woods. So I cut in my off time...

I have actually taken time off from my "real" job for a week at a time to go cut/fall timber. But that's few and far between now... Just keep lookin', and somethin' will show up. 

Gary


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## slowp (Mar 25, 2010)

Go to school and take lots of math. Then you can go into forestry. I predict a shortage of foresters...it has already started. A 2 year degree is accepted more now than it used to, but it is best to go for the big one. There's more choices. You can always log during the summers, if you can find a job, and then after college. There's a few loggers out there with forestry degrees. 

You can be an operations forester. That's kind of what I do. Then you can spend time out and about in the units, and checking up on and annoying the loggers. I even get to run a saw sometimes. 

But, DON'T SKIMP ON THE MATH CLASSES!!

There's lots of math to be done in forestry. Computer stuff too. The latter was not good to me today....


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## kkottemann (Mar 25, 2010)

Slowp beat me to it. I got a degree in forestry....hard times right now. You want to be in the biz...go to college, get a degree in forestry. work summers for loggers or for the forest service in fire mgmt. then get a mba...you combine those two degrees with some good hands on expierience you will be a valuable asset to a company or agency somewhere! you got to get your head on straight though....get back in school and apply yourself. and yes!!!! girls at college rock! plenty of fun there! good luck!


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## slowp (Mar 25, 2010)

You might be able to go for my job, next year. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## crackajeff (Mar 25, 2010)

Like slowp said, take LOTS of math in high school. I'm at West Virginia U. now for forestry and math is my biggest problem because I didn't take enough in high school. And once you get past the first semester college isn't that bad. I know my first semester all I wanted to do was drop out and get a job in logging, construction, or wildland firefighting. It gets better once you get some forestry classes in your schedule. And be sure to do extra stuff too. If the college you decide to go to has a woodsmen/timbersports team, join it. You'll learn a lot from the older people on the team and have a blast. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## 056 kid (Mar 25, 2010)

I am trying hard now to get through college, I hated the academic aspect of highschool. I thought it was gonna be different in college but its the same so far. i need to find me a good school with some people that I can relate to. It just seems that everyone my age is 100 % grade A retarded. Heavy metal, pop music and video games is all they are interested in. They are great at book learning but have no common sence. ugg..


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## Jacob J. (Mar 25, 2010)

I don't know that there's a real shortage of foresters currently, but there will be soon enough. In the late 80's when logging was slowing down on Federal lands, there was a glut of "professional" foresters, meaning foresters with degrees who usually worked as contract admins or timber sale admins. BLM here put many on the surplus list or moved them over to silviculture and fire. The forest service had many surplussed as well. Some went back to school and filled out a biological sciences angle on their education and went to work as *ologists. 

I agree with all the advice so far here, go to college and get a degree in some sort of natural resource discipline. You could just as easily be a company forester for a large land management company and run your own small logging company as an extra outlet. One guy I've cut timber for in the past does that- he's a company forester for Roseburg Resources that does his own mom + pop logging thing on the side.


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## crackajeff (Mar 25, 2010)

Yeah the school part of school sucks, except for my major classes. I got lucky and found some people in my major that I have a lot in common with. And yeah I've noticed how many students are just plain stupid. I'm amazed at how many college aged guys that can't change a flat tire or unclog a drain. I thought I was going to be around smart people in college:greenchainsaw:


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## Arkansashunter (Mar 25, 2010)

Ok you guys have got me convinced...
Not sure how I'm gonna go back to school..I've hated it completely...
Like some of you guys said, people are completely stupid now adays. None of them get along with me real well

Got any ideas what I can do during the summer to benefit myself???


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## GASoline71 (Mar 25, 2010)

Arkansashunter said:


> Ok you guys have got me convinced...
> *Not sure how I'm gonna go back to school*..I've hated it completely...
> Like some of you guys said, people are completely stupid now adays. None of them get along with me real well
> 
> Got any ideas what I can do during the summer to benefit myself???



So you dropped out? Now wanna become a logger? Aye yi yi... Get you butt back in class amigo!

Gary


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## Arkansashunter (Mar 25, 2010)

GASoline71 said:


> So you dropped out? Now wanna become a logger? Aye yi yi... Get you butt back in class amigo!
> 
> Gary[/QUOTE}
> 
> I will...


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## 056 kid (Mar 26, 2010)

STAY IN SCHOOL. It sucks, but the ladys are somthing else..... zbout the only way I can stand to attend class...


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## madhatte (Mar 26, 2010)

Agreed 100% with everybody who says "STAY IN SCHOOL". I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but if it hasn't, I'd like to suggest a 2-year Community College degree in Forestry. It will teach you the WHYS and WHENS of the timber industry, so that the HOWS will make more sense to you once you're on the ground. 

'Course, you might not want to listen to me; I'm just an "ologist" who works in Forestry even though I've never gotten a formal Forestry education. Still, I've been at it a few years now and it's paying the bills, so I count myself both lucky and successful.

EDIT: SlowP beat me to it! 

Addendum: LEARN ArcGIS! That skill is worth its weight in gold!

(Plus cartography is fun)


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## stihlcrazy20 (Mar 26, 2010)

Stay in school, i was fortunate enough to buy into my dads construction company straight out of high school and that pays for my firewood bussiness. Last summer I decided to log with my father in law on a 20 acre pine deal. When all was said and done after a month of hard work busting our asses all day we walked away with $4,500 profit each not worth it at all. Get a college education and you can make more then that a month easy. For example my brother went to college 5yrs and became an arcitect he makes $6,000 a month reading and writing blueprints. BTW im only 21 so take my advice for what its worth to you but i personally make more in a month in construction then i did in a month of logging. Wish i would have went to college after high school but i chose c to follow the family footsteps, fourtunatly it worked for me but it wasnt easy i had to climb the ranks from clean-up ##### to my position of co-owner/foreman


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## nhlogga (Mar 26, 2010)

056 kid said:


> I am trying hard now to get through college, I hated the academic aspect of highschool. I thought it was gonna be different in college but its the same so far. i need to find me a good school with some people that I can relate to. It just seems that everyone my age is 100 % grade A retarded. Heavy metal, pop music and video games is all they are interested in. They are great at book learning but have no common sence. ugg..





I call that book smart and brain dead.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## nhlogga (Mar 26, 2010)

I agree wih everyone else. Stay in school. At the very least graduate high school. I am just fortunate enough that there were lots of loggers in my area that could use an extra hand from time to time. I started out doing fire wood for my grand father at $10 per cord. I have chipped brush with a hand chipper for little money. It took a long time to get where I am now and I don't regret one bit of it. It also helps that I am a 3rd generation logger. My dad tried to steer me away from the logging business but I didn't listen. I would tell you to graduate high school. Then try working for someone just to see if you even really want to do it. Logging is hard work and isn't for everyone. I know lots of people who were all gung ho to cut wood but when they got going realized it's not for them. Your still young. Try different things. I wish you lots of luck.


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## slowp (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm one of those "surplussed people." They hammered the engineers and the foresters. 

I am considered a forestry technician officially. The loggers call me the forester. I went to a 2 year college and then to OSU for a 10 week course in forest engineering. 

Right now in our agency, there's a major shortage of engineers. There are also quite a few forester jobs. With a 2 year degree, you might get up the ladder as far as what is known as a GS 12, if you are in Timber Sale Administration. Of course, you would end up being in a larger city or town and wouldn't see the woods too much at that level, which is the Timber Sale Contracting Officer. But the opportunities are there. 

We baby boomers are retiring. The workshop I went to last week, as usual, had folks trying to recruit or steal other folks away. There is already a shortage. 

The good points of what I do? I work on my own, can come and go at all hours if I want, and can get out in the woods. I like working around logging operations, I like seeing people get things done, and loggers are characters. 
Right now there isn't much logging going on so I've been flagging and tagging units for an upcoming timber sale. 

The bad points? I work for a bureauocracy. I am where it all rolls down to. I often have to make sure the loggers do things that they know, and I know, are very stupid and might be harmful in the long run, but the people who went to more college are requiring it to be done. The people who have more schooling have more sayso. That's the way it is. 

Like loggers, we get hurt. With us it is soft tissue damage. The knees are vulnerable. I've trashed an ankle. It now seems to lock in place going up steep hills. I've torn rib cartilage twice, and broke a finger. I tore my calf muscles in one leg big time. You should see me climb out of the pickup at the end of the day. I go slow. 

But, I like my job when I'm out in the woods. Can't think of anywhere else that I'd like to work....well maybe as a snow ranger or river ranger. It is when I'm having to take part in a meeting, or in the office...politics, that I do not like my job. 

Get back in school, take math. If I made it through the engineering stuff, anybody can. I was told to stay away from science and math because I had no aptitude......HAH! I got all A's and one B from OSU.


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## madhatte (Mar 26, 2010)

One of the guys on our [contracted] planting crew this year is a ENGB on a FS Type 2 crew, does PCT in the spring and cuts cedar boughs in the winter. I told him he already works all year in the woods, might as well pick up a certificate or two and make a career out of it and stop chasing contracts. Sharp dude. Watched him suss out some geology stuff from observation that lots of edumacated folks never quite get. We need more sharp folks in the woods!


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## Arkansashunter (Mar 27, 2010)

Alot to think about...I'll stay in school, and do my best...


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## madhatte (Mar 27, 2010)

Hint: if you don't like the school you're at, find another. I've been a student at three "Institutions Of Higher Learning" and moved on twice. Don't be afraid to pack up and get outta Dodge. It's your life -- INVEST IN IT.


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## forestryworks (Mar 27, 2010)

madhatte said:


> Hint: if you don't like the school you're at, find another. I've been a student at three "Institutions Of Higher Learning" and moved on twice. Don't be afraid to pack up and get outta Dodge. It's your life -- INVEST IN IT.



What he said.

I'm on school number 4 - 2yr. forestry school - this is it for now.


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## stihl sawing (Mar 27, 2010)

You know that most of the logging done here anymore is with harvesters. not very many companies even carry a saw. Usually there are no men on the ground, all the work is done with machines. Take the advice and stay in school.


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## ryan_marine (Mar 27, 2010)

Come on up for a summer if you want to get a good taste of logging. I only have a 2 man crew. We do alot of things the hard way but we get it done. Trust us stay in school and you will not be doing the hardest job in woods.

Ray


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## Gologit (Mar 27, 2010)

Arkansashunter said:


> Alot to think about...I'll stay in school, and do my best...



That's the best plan. You've had some good advice from some of the most professional and most experienced people on this forum. I won't add to it but I agree with them.


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## Arkansashunter (Mar 28, 2010)

I would be REALLY intrested in working with somebody during the summer...
who knows...

You guys are giving me good advice, and if I'm smart I'll listen..


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## dozerman37 (Mar 28, 2010)

*school/work hard?*

either way i had grown up i had been bustin my ass cuttin wood and logging on my weekends with my uncle. i hated working with the public i had worked in grocery stores and hardware store. yea that life isnt bad at all, but i hate being talked down by the boss. so i came my own boss. school isnt for everyone. but trust me listen to peoples advice. im only 24 i am plenty young. but its what i been bred for. i know nothing else, but the air conditioned store was pretty nice in the summer. search your career on your own guy and good luck. whatever makes you happy in the end.


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## little possum (Apr 1, 2010)

GASoline71 said:


> So... for now... stay in school. Get a hot rod, chase all the girls, play sports, all that teenage stuff... you're not the first very young kid to pop up on here wantin' to be a logger.
> 
> I'll say to you what I have always said to them... no need to hang out on an internet forum with saw geeks and loggers... currently working loggers, and busted up loggers... go experience your young life... push the computer away and go fishin', rebuild a carburetor, get in trouble, fix up an old dirt bike, run around town with your buddies raisin' hell...
> 
> ...



That is all great advice. ^

Ive been out of High School for 2 years now, and Ill tell ya. GO TO SCHOOL! Ive worked about 20 different odd jobs, to decide what all I dont want to do and it has helped. But I am going to put myself through school when I go back, so everything Ive learned along the way has helped me out. Doesnt really matter about who is in the school with you, you just need to do your best. 
Best thing to do, would be go duck hunting


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## OregonFirewood (Apr 3, 2010)

I would say do as others are saying and focus on a different career outside of logging while you are young and make your fortune somewhere else. If you really want to work in the woods, buy a small tract of forest land after you make your money as an investment and a hobby. Then you can log/play on your own land without the struggles of trying to make a living from it. At least for me that's the most fun way to be in the logging business.


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## GASoline71 (Apr 3, 2010)

Good point OregonFirewood...

All the cats I know that are loggers did not just decide one day... "Ya know what? I wanna be a logger..." It came down to either a family business, or it was basically the only/best option for them at the time. But that was back in the day when you could drive your truck up to the landing and put on a pair of hand me down corks and ask for a job... and get hired on the spot. Usualy it was a last resort... 

One of my best buds that is one of the best damn loggers I know is part owner of a Loggin' Co. that his Grandfather started waayyy back when. He hates it... literally hates it. But he couldn't let down his gramps or his pops... so he stays in the business to keep it alive in his family. One day his son and daughter will run the company. He told me recently he looks forward to that day.

I told him it's in his blood... he will be loggin', hate it or not, until the day he dies. He told me... "Crap... you're probably right." For some it's just the way it is mang... 

Gary

Gary


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## indiansprings (Apr 3, 2010)

I've got a son about your age, he's a sophmore in high school currently. He is a unique kid, he is a workaholic. He didn't have much of a childhood, I'd pick him up everyday after school and bring him to my office, he sat around and listened to six or seven guys sell sporting goods products all day. I used to travel alot, made a chit pot full of money for a while, some years close to 300k, like an idiot I spent most of it. I had to retire due to health reasons, we moved back to a farm, close to where I grew up when he was 12. I've always encouraged my kids to work. Last summer he hauled almost 13,000 square bales at .10 cents a piece, winter before he, his brother and a friend cut almost a 100 cord of firewood, this winter the same crew with my help cut 371 cord and sold it, this spring his brother and him expanded their lawn service, they have over 30k in contract mowing. I can tell you this, he is doing this so he can get his hiney in school and not have to bust his ass everyday like he thinks he has too now. I have a different perspective, you see the doctors tell me I have this disease that will get me within the next 3 to 4 years, I worked for 18 years at a job paying great money, hated getting up and going in everyday, one day just got up and resigned, went to work for a big sporting goods company, again lots of money, liked the people and the job, hated the travel one month I was away from home right at 21 days, it sucked, even the perks, hunting with Realtree,Mossy Oak and a lot of guys on the outdoor channel, just about every species in North America, it got old, it became a job in itself, trying to kiss the customer's azz making sure he killed a trophy on your tab. When I got sick, I thought I had lost it all.
Hell, I just really found it, what is important is your family and your health, make sure you find employment in something you enjoy doing everyday, it helps if it pays the bills,lol, but the most important thing is that it makes you happy, that happiness will rub off on the people you are around. That's my advice, do what makes you happy, but make sure you have a few choices or alternative skills, in todays world employment can end tommorrow and you better have something to fall back on. Finish school, go to a Jr. College or Tech school, even though I was a Army officer both active and the majority of service in the reserves, I can recommend either the Air Force or the Navy if you need some time to grow up, earn some money and these two services excel at giving great technical educations, your not just humping a rifle around or washing tanks. Best part is the community college of the air force, you can get your education while serving. It's something you need to put a lot of thought into, I agree with another's advice don't rush it, make some time for yourself, it's something I preach to my boys all the time.
Best of luck to you!


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## Oldtimer (Apr 4, 2010)

I know Arkansas is a long ways from the oceans, but my advice is to join the USCG. You can gain a lot of headway in life in the service.
USCG is now under HOMSEC control, and it's the easiest branch of the service to become an officer in. US military officers have a HUGE head start on civilians in the corporate sector of private business. 98 out of 100 CEOs in this country are former military officers.

Logging is a great way of life for a man who doesn't mind long days of hot hard work...and a lifetime of it....all for an uncertain retirement.
I would advise you to at least research the US coast guard before risking life and limb and financial future on logging.

EDIT:
I should qualify this advice by telling you that I myself have done a fair amount of research on various trade schools, collages, and branches of the US military for my 16 year old daughter. I am trying hard to get her into either the USCG or, god help me here, the USAF. The USAF only wants the very best of the best, and my kid isn't all that ambitious with her school grades. I keep telling her that her grades are super important to her future, but her laptop computer is all she can see these days. The USCG is within her reach, and from what I'm hearing, it's relatively safe and very rewarding in many ways. Including money for education and training for a well paying job in the private sector.
I tell her this:
If you work at WALMART, you will meet a WALMART guy, and live a WALMART life. If you join the service, you'll meet a smart guy with a future, and lead a very exciting rewarding life. 
The same applies to you. Go meet a smart gal with a future.


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