# Hinge Forensics



## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 16, 2003)

After about every felling cut (especially with a lot of thought input); i try to read the hinge to understand more. And quite a few cuts in the air get that 1/2 second check to try to expand and polish info for next time..... It is a simple thing to monitor the output, especially with all the input fresh in your mind. And in this field, another fine idea of Mr. Dent's.

Every picture tells a story..... every torn hinge can too i beleive.

This was a tough one that was a sling shot shaped, that i had to take off one arm; which off balanced it extremely, but left as much of the shortened arm as possible for balance; then worked on equalizing the rest.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 3, 2003)

*ButterFlies are Free*

Another thing about looking at hinges and figuring out what pulled where, is ya can look at other hinges, from other people and make fair guesstimates as to what transpired days before, trying to exercise and seive out what lessons that can be had for less than usual, someone else has already paid the BeaST (Blood,Sweat & Tears; how do ya like that music?).

So, even at a construction sight i might be lurking, this time with my 'net' (camera) for trapping stuff in my 'jar' (monitor on desk that digital pix get putt into).

Orrrrrrrrrr something like that!
:alien:


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 3, 2003)

:umpkin: Just in time for Halloween, Scary Hinges! :umpkin:


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## Burnham (Oct 3, 2003)

Spyder, I see these and worse all the time as evidence of either attempted or successful firewood theft on the National Forest, falling trees for fuelwood being illegal. So far I have never found a body...but once a squashed Mac! How do so many people survive Darwinian principles???


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## TREETX (Oct 3, 2003)

Nice scairy pics!!! Truly classics. An urban tree care myth caught on film!!!

Perfect example of taking a removal that would have been X dollars to Xsquared dollars.

Was McPeak working in the neighborhood??


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## murphy4trees (Oct 3, 2003)

OK Holmes,
Here's one for you....
This is a wild cherry I felled today... I would normally show the before pics first and tell the story... In this case here are a couple pics of the hinge.... You can tell the story..........


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## murphy4trees (Oct 3, 2003)

Story might include:
How was backcut made?
Lean of tree?
was it pulled/pushed? And if so how?
Anything else you can think of?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 4, 2003)

The infamous mark of the blue glove....

On construction sites i usually assume pushing, especially with such heavily sheared fiber standing. That particular lot, they stripped the whole thing wholesale without mercy. Pushing with heavy equipment puts operator away from direction of fold, also locks into the ground to push off of (rather than pulling to a high position which as it works reduces traction, this is wy on some pulls on tops i like to have a low redirect pulley with all of the pull to top, but none of the friction breaking lift on truck).

Mostly looking for dramatic examples with less hidden charachteristics. Decay, kinda throws clues off etc. Especially wether a missing chunk of fiber from stump was from shear stretching force seperating it and those fibers went with tree as they contracted in a bit from the stretching (instead of staying with stump) or if it was a decayed pocket giving no help or was empty hole anyway. Decay makes patterno of stretched fibers hard to determine too as it interupts it.

i beleive it is logical for the fibers to stretch out a bit then retract fractionally, also that the tree butt would be the mirror image of sutmp stalgmites/holes and more clues to story.

Dutchman strike marks are hard to see anyway, but don't see any.

With the stretched fibers starting middle, lots of forward leveraged pull, fair amount of lean too, not too much from not so many far stretched fibers (but could have been thrown faster, where they didn't stretch) to ooposite side of hinge from lean (save stripe) .

Seems compressed fiber on both sides indicating balanced load somewhat, perhaps by line pulling to front but opposite lean side.

No crystal ball, just observations; thin ice along the way, color shirt that was worn hard to tell from hinge........

Orrrrrrrrr something like that!


:alien:


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## murphy4trees (Oct 4, 2003)

That report gets you an "A"....
Fairly heavy side lean to thin side of hinge as per your diagram and the below photo....
Here the tree is faced up and ready to fell.... Only thing not shown is the other house.... Should the hinge have failed, tree ends up in the kitchen! House in picture is not threatened...
A careful look at this pic shows pull line set in line with camera angle and a control (or retainer) line set perpendicular to face...
Pull line set in 3:1 Z rig with two men pulling...
Tree is 88' tall and the only remaining lead after failure of two other leads due to cable failure... Cables were ancient and though they may have been set properly at time of installation, the tree had far outgrown their placement.
Also you may see that both pull and retainer lines were set from ground using lacing technique and tied off to trunk several feet above hinge.


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## murphy4trees (Oct 4, 2003)

Here's the notch....
Cut using 084 with 36" bar.... Decay in center notch is clearly visible... Good wood on both sides, especially right side, which is the tension side of hinge is reassuring... Taperred hinge with retainer line as a back up works for me...
Backcut was started with 36" bar to about 6" of hinge straight across, and finished with 28" bar on compression side (left) of hinge, leaving the full 6" of hinge on tension side.


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## murphy4trees (Oct 4, 2003)

Here's a final pic showinf felled tree from patio of client's house...
Color shirt: RED


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## geofore (Oct 4, 2003)

*cherry pull*

Do the cherry trees down there get the little gnat like, paper winged bugs sucking the leaves turning them whiteish tan? They do bite and are real pests in this area. Good size cherry, typical of most I do around here with the rot problems and size of tree when the customer finally calls to say it time to remove them. You have a bit bigger landing zone with this one. Whould you have hesitated to climb that one if it had to be climbed to set ropes or remove a limb, do you think it was safe enough to climb? I climbed one last year to set ropes and remove two limbs in the wires and when it hit the ground 35' of the top of the one next to it fell out as the first one hit the ground  . To think I was going to climb the second one to set ropes scarry. The second one broke off where the woodpeckers had hollowed it out to nest, they didn't leave enough wood to hold the top in. In the pic from the patio it looks like I'm seeing the underside of the leaves but that is what the leaves here look like when the bugs get in them, leaves fall off early but don't kill the trees.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 5, 2003)

Hey Daniel,

Fairly tough thar with decay, less dramatic signs of stretching etc.; kinda got lucky guessing.....

i woulda hated to guess wrong, and people not think that they could learn something from looking at their hinges to learn/familiarize with the workings of this shorn, single use machine, that we charge with so much work.

Especially there own hinges, after carefull consideration to making the face, where lean was etc. To immediately start stockpiling mentally what these things work like, so that their patterns become familiar and understandable.

i have always thought that by monitoring your output, and folding those lessons of doing better back into successive operations as a strategic evolution performance, positive action etc. This hinge forensics is just my version of that in this field.

So many things come back to the hinge for it is the machine that does the largest of this work singlehandedly ushering 100's of tons of force gracefully. And like any fine machine that has real potential power, polishing out points to allow that power to shine can make it a whole new game, and kinda fun in the 'tuning' sense! With the fine adjustments i can do to the 'power source' of leveraged force of C.o.B. (and added line pulls and direction); the main effect i can have is making the hinging/face slapping machine polished at the pivots, pulls and pushes crafted just for that single task to use that force the best, not a generically made hinge for this specialized, single task. The better i do that, the better the results, and sometimes the awesomeness as so much moves so gracefully against so many of the odds.


Orrrrrrrr something like that!



Tomorrow i might have an interesting one, not as big, dead but not decayed. i think i can take it down by kinda rolling it R around the head of another tree, then coming L under that head to hit target area and not crush 3-12' growth on the R, that is kinda woods anyway...... Kinda limited movement, the longer the spar, the more the far end moves to clear. i try to get the hinge to pull one way in the first part of travel, and take that force pulling to the (right) and slap that force i pulled over on a right step dutchman to then use that force to throw left. Also depending on the other head of the tree to support felling one, but not let motion stop(dangerous) just keep the motion 'rolling' away from head of maintained tree. But it has to look like that the day i do it, but i'll bring me'camera, would like to capture one of those.....


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 5, 2003)

Some older forensic shots, including a goof!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 6, 2003)

*Works in reverse*

Folding a lodged tree to 'fold up' and free up, pushing and pulling itself to free side.

This is using these things in reverse.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 6, 2003)

One side closing early to push to the other side,that is extra wide to let hinge pull that way, then extra pull put in hinge.... 

So one side is narrow, other wide, with tapered hinge. The narrow face side becomes a step dutchman that pushes to the side that hasn't closed. Also IMLHO causes step side of hinge to rip earlier, invoking hinge taper, and subsequent pull to the opposite side automatically!

All to the shape of rolling off the tree trying to preserve, using it as partial support and direction.

These Dutchman things are said to be dangerous, and carefully working sm./med. with slow falls and plenty of escape time. 

Not recomended, walking the outer edge to show the powers here and present, to be assessed and used in smaller portions daily to aid, and to identify the patterns to lock out against happening when they can stand agaisnt you. Also with this much command without a line, placing one in lends more (especially here torqued where the twist would make tree ride upwards slightly as it was leveraged around) power of hinge and direction.

Orrrrrrrrrrrr something like that!

:alien:


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 7, 2003)

This was over another tree, so sent it L (as you look at it)to get out from over the other tree, that sent it toward crushing some stuff, so then drew it back R under neath the other tree top. This way it cleared the top and didn't crush the other lower stuff too.

Using the hinge pull in First part of fall to pull L. then taking that force and slamming it on a dutchman on that L side, to make the tree then go R in the latter parrt of the fall. Taking advantage of the 2 stages of felling of pull in the hinge then push in the face(s).

Kinda like swing tree one way,then the other, by 'chasing' the spar into the cut, slanting it L then R; with saw. Clear out as you send it to slam on Stepped Dutchman of uneven face.

This is to show the power in the faces slapping, and the 2 different phases of Pull on Hinge, then Push in Face, used here more creatively to show how these things should be calcualted to happen in 2 stages, not just pull in the hinge.

This in everyday felling would illustrate the power in the slapping faces, why the faces would be even, no kerfs in hinge or anything, perfect faces that perform a function. Also, the force fed into them should be a balanced even force to throw forward evenly with every cut. This would be another 'arguement' for that tapered hinge, fopr the whole idea there is to balance out the force for an even ride on hinge squarely into the face of fall; this also slaps the L and R faces evenly with balanced force to each side, to serve forward evenly.

2 different phases, both better and safer, more predictable ; balanced as any other motion or machine. IMLHO


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## murphy4trees (Oct 10, 2003)

Stoped by a demolition site today...


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## murphy4trees (Oct 10, 2003)

Here's an interesting stump for hinge forensics...
Big Tulip tree


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## murphy4trees (Oct 10, 2003)

And another pic of same stump....
it's pretty clear to me what went on here... What do you see???


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 10, 2003)

If we can guess, figure from other's hinges; should be able to diagnose, remember and adjust our own in an ongoing, evolution of informed understanding and bettermeant. Having advantage to diagnose immediately after making decisive actions, would give more sure, deeper (reinforcemeant)answers to that quest. As in anything else we strive at, and suggested here by Mr. Dent.

Some mo'guesses...->

Read once that L.U.C.K. was an accronym for Luck Under Controlled Know-Ledge; still i respond humbley; jest always thought that was a good line! Try to take focus in it sometimes during planning though...... 'course the more focused during planning then the more the same reading forensics, lessons learned (or some kind of vicious cycle)...

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr sumeptin'like dat!
:alien:


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## ORclimber (Oct 11, 2003)

Riiiiiiip!!

Not my best work.


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## ORclimber (Oct 11, 2003)

Here's the stump.


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## murphy4trees (Oct 12, 2003)

Spidy and all,
I was able to get a feel for the work on that site, and it's clear to me that the feller had limitted knowledge and experience....
These trees were all pretty straight and had a wide open drop zone... There is no question in my mind that the big tulip was pushed over with that excavator... There is a clear bypass on the angled face cut, best seen in the last pic... This created a Dutchman which caused the hinge to sieze. The extra wide hinge was then caused by the huge force of that machine pushing from behind.... The operator cut through the side of the hinge because the bar was too short to cut straight through...
Some of the other hinges looked OK... he was lucky a few times I guess!!!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 12, 2003)

Been thar, done that Or! Nice, stretched fibers, hardest workers on crew many days!

Guess i missed that soft kerf edge the Murph, thanx, will look for it more often; seen enough of my own in the past to know what they look like! 

i figured that the bar was too short to reach on backcut without presetting one side of hinge, but that would have been my choice. Stumper is really right on about that long thin across the hinge, it works so many ways IMLHO.

Many trees can fall lucky on wide open construction sites especially aided by the shear force of earth moving equipment, the forces are there 'lessor' technique and need for such. Better mechanics makes it safer, and wider adaptation of use; especially without the available correction of heavy equipment to lock against the ground and push.

Most of the corrective hinging, illustrates to me the amount of force it takes to address direction adjustment, and a better, self adjusting system to natureally do it with, in a self tightening position (behind motion/pull).

i think a dutchman can make tree sieze when fall is moving to slow to take step up/launch off. With the slow movement and hinge pulling from behind, not enugh force to slap down and climb 'curb' in this case (bottom face cut too far?). Barberchair is more prone to happen at such siezing i beleive, dangerous time as pull and face compression fight each other escalating till one fails, i look at a barber chair as a split diecision..... But think it is more likely to happen if bottom cut is too far also....

This is all fascinating to me, but just ground school. i look at all the lil hinges in the air. If felling N with a NW lean is achievable with this mechanics in hinge, so is using it to steer and throw to the side of the downward pull of gravity. Once again the point of the tapered hinge goes in the general direction of the OffSide pull to pro-posed travel (that pull would be down as you moved limb across), kerf steps for mini dutchmans go on thin side of hinge (down) to pro-vide lift against down as in tandem wide end of hinge provides lifting pull. All the same sideways IMLHO! And presented on the ground to show the immense power, how to use it; and how well it works even at that immense scale. Also, a strategy that is more powerfull as the weight and leverage is pitted against itself, the more there is to challenge the hinge, the more the hinge pulls, making bigger/heavier easier on some tricks..IMLHO

:alien:


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## John Ellison (Oct 12, 2003)

Good thread.
Watching the heavy eq. and chain saw work on some const. sites can scare you to death.
I guess its obvious but IMHO the size and type of tree has a lot to do with how well or if a dutchman will work. Shorter pine trees ( like in this area of the south) have to be one of the easiest and most forgiving. I have limited experience with hardwoods but for me they dont swing near as well. Some types such as west coast alder seem to be especially prone to barberchair. The taller trees 100 plus have the leverage to make the wild stuff happen. That siezing or stoping is to be avoided.
I like the fact that you guys are interested in what stumps look like. 
From stumps you can see that a popular falling method in this area is the full face dutchman. Picture the treetop moving forward ten or fifteen feet,stoping, then a sec or two later dropping in the general direction of the face. In tall timber it might be instant b.chair but in shorter stuff if the faller isnt looking up, he dosent even realize the tree moved or that anything is wrong.
Hinge Forensics Cool name for a thread Spyder. 

John


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## murphy4trees (Oct 12, 2003)

Here's another ash I felled this week... I was surprised to be the lowest bid on this job, as I know at least one other company regularly underbids me by 15-30%.
There are 5 pics total, what do you think happenned?


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## murphy4trees (Oct 12, 2003)

Another pic


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## murphy4trees (Oct 12, 2003)

Here's a close up of the stump/hinge... tree obviously had plenty of decay... I suppose it would be easier to see if I had blown off the dust


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## murphy4trees (Oct 12, 2003)

And the reverse angle


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## murphy4trees (Oct 12, 2003)

and the side shot...
A lot happenned getting that log on the ground... plent of hints for the trained eye.... have fun. his pic also shows three distinct pieces that came out the notch..... more on that later


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## murphy4trees (Oct 12, 2003)

Rocky,
I forgot to add the blue glove to that last pic... hard to tell based on that pic, how big that ash was... Stump cut was around 18-22"
I left it high and cut a 100*+ notch hoping to keep the hinge would hold after felling and keep the log off the ground... The homeowner had every inch of that backyard landscaped... hate to hurt the flowers.... 
Log rolled a little cause of the bend in the trunk... I wonder if there wasn't so much decay in the middle of the hinge, if it would have been strong enough to hold and resisit the roll...
Any other thoughts????


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 12, 2003)

L.U.C.K.y Shot!

Nice lay even brushing other trees, steering and locking to one onR with hinge pulling that way so lil tree doesnt push big one off course, even though it started byleaning away from face? Using pull on R, even though that is where least amount of fiber is?

Lots of mess and rot, plotting hinging around that rot like a plunged face, shape helped shift on ground and dissipate shock some, looks like all that coulda got a lil wild in that narrow pass of fence with log hopping around.

Of course with a high leverage pull and slow backcut that force would be minimized, and direction to target more sure.

Purty dang good shootin' at every point!


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## murphy4trees (Oct 12, 2003)

OK here's what happenned.....
Cut the notch fat and high as posted earlier....
1 man pulling on a slight front leaner.... I was aiming for the uprooted stump or just to it's right, using the little maple as a keeper to prevent rolling downhill into fence...
As tree began to move, it looked like it was heading a little left, on the high side of stump, so I quickly hit the gas and took out more wood on left side of hinge to steer her right.... That's why the left side hinge fibres look compressed, because I took out all the tension wood as the tree was falling.....
So the tree steers a little right, and hits the stump precisely as evidenced by the bark damage in the reverse angle pic... Then because of the bow the tree rolls right and bounces downhill into the little maple... The force of the roll was such that it easily tore the left side of hinge off... But the right side of hinge which was complete, held causing a large section to tear off up the trunk. It is possible that if I hadn't needed to reduce the left side hinge that would have held too, though its tough to say.
That was agood day... did some minor pruning.... elevating small Norway Maples growing in the woods (backyard) ... I know MM but these trees really should have been removed.....
Customer was pleased and actually used the word "fantastic" to describe the work.... I think that was a first...


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 22, 2003)

Follow up to "No Pro Hinges" pic. The crew(?) returned to some of the hazards they left, defused some, kinda left some.

One pic in particular shows the massive forces built up enough to splinter a spar from falling into a NoFace 'face'; which should mutely testify it's own warning about any binding in the face, let alone, not taking a FaceCut.


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## Yellowdog (Jan 24, 2004)

I'd love some forensics on this stump. It was a fairly medium pecan tree right next to a house that was being demolilshed. Leaned away from house.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 24, 2004)

It was turned to one side a tad.


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## SilverBlue (Jan 25, 2004)

Here’s a cut that should have been textbook, instead the birch headed immediately to the right and the top narrowly missed the neighbor’s deck, wonder why. Hotshot said it was the groundy's fault for not pulling on the rope hard enough.


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## Yellowdog (Jan 25, 2004)

So, you should stop and really take a look at the notch before making the back cut? Don't assume anything, right? Also, how much higher should that back cut be? 1", 2"?


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## Yellowdog (Jan 25, 2004)

Thanks rocky.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 25, 2004)

i think that on a conventrional notch of size, 2" catch lip against tree coming back is recomended, though i think tree steers better coming straight into apex of FaceCut; so i go for that but with a wide face 'birds beak'(?) FaceCut.

i always inspect the FaceCut for rot and miss cuts (unintentional kerf dutchmans), never assume anything; sometimes trace a 'chalk line' to walk with saw just so deep around the back perfectly connecting corners of FaceCuts; so when i'm doing it for real, i know i'm square.

i bet the ground man was pulling for all they were worth; they had to pull up the ramp some, and break that far fiber towards building. The fiber is in a very leveraged position to fight ground control, pit crew; suddenly it let lose, with hardly any hinge to control, everyone glad when it was done. Cutter stressed cuz they were in there sweating in the kill zone; in a tight box with no where to go, knowing enough fiber was gone that thing should be off him; not realizing remaining fiber was in leveraged position to fight the crew pulling!

in general i think a forward pull from face is best, to leverage a stronger hinge and let that take care of SideLean; rather than fighting SideLean with line, let leveraged fiber do that for you in response. But in a case like this of compromise by saw or rot etc. of the fibers, pulling to the opposite side to steer i think is best as the fibers leveraged support is compromised; IMLHO.

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr some'tin like that!
:alien:


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## SilverBlue (Jan 25, 2004)

Excellent observations Brian and Ken, it was sloppy workmanship that made the job difficult, the rope man did have to work harder and there was no control at all.
Yellowdog, if the back cut was higher and the angles were acceptable this tree would have been so simple. Instead it almost turned into a disaster.


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## Yellowdog (Jan 25, 2004)

Truly and awesome diagram Spyder! I think your observations are very helpful and I for one, am greatful. It makes great sense to analyze what you did and why you did it while things are fresh in the mind. 
You are very close to the way things went down! I don't remember if there was a line pull or not. The tree had quite a lean away from house. This house was from 1880's and I imagine someone dropped a pecan too close to the house! 

I guess I was lucky to make it out of that one. Thought I had it all planned out.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jan 25, 2004)

SB, which was the notch side, the bottom? If so there was a huge toe nail (unintended Kerf dutchman), and he cut through the hinge.
I disagree that the backcut was too low, if anything it was too high. 
Unless the top of the picture is the notch side, then there are all different problems!


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## Yellowdog (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SilverBlue _
> *Excellent observations Brian and Ken, it was sloppy workmanship that made the job difficult, the rope man did have to work harder and there was no control at all.
> Yellowdog, if the back cut was higher and the angles were acceptable this tree would have been so simple. Instead it almost turned into a disaster. *



I think you hit the nail on the head...


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## Yellowdog (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *SB, which was the notch side, the bottom?
> 
> The notch was out of the left of the picture. See the pic where the tree fell.*


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jan 25, 2004)

Sorry YD, I was talking about SB's Birch stump.


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## Yellowdog (Jan 25, 2004)

Sorry too, Mike.

I didn't post the pic where that tree went until after..


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## SilverBlue (Jan 25, 2004)

Mike, the notch is on the bottom and angles down to the left.


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## Hemlock (Jan 25, 2004)

Great post! Stump always tells the tale. One thing that would be very helpful for me would be if the stump were cleaned up better so that I could see the chain marks as well. It is very hard to judge what happened through the limited eye of a camera and kerfs and hingewood only tells part of what happened. Alot can be learned by studying the small grooves of the chain and trying to figure out how the sawyer worked the saw through the cuts leading up to the end result. Fun topic and good feedback.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 25, 2004)

i got confused too Mike, thread changed as i was drawing; reply window shows words but not pix; so didn't even know SB had posted one!

i think Mike has made a real good point, and if ya don't see it or don't think it matters; it can get ya! 

The un-intentional Kerf DutchMan step will close early and push to the opposite side.

The RopeMan was prolly working against themselves as the tree set forward just enough to close kerf; then his leveraged pressure would use the closed face to push against him.

DutchMan's are typically the most dangerous adjustment to travel, so much so that they are banned etc. in some places. They are very powerful, capable of invoking all of the weight, leverage and speed of a massive tree at peak and using it. Especially, unintentionally this can be dangerous ground.

In branchings, tops etc. of less leverage and weight we may be able to use such a force judiciously; but here it is unintentionally and incorrectly applied if i read it right.

This comes down to doing the simple things correctly, making the FaceCuts precisely meet; like crafting a fine machine to pivot tons of force, make it right once!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 26, 2004)

The model i envision for tree cutting carries from felling to bucking, freefalling, rigging is all the same. Scheduling leverage to allow my path of choice; while also scheduling leverage to be fortified against the pull away from target (to the side).

The basic structure that being in the hinge is narrow (for less leverage agianst movement) to the desired direction of fall; while maintaining fortified positions of leverage against the lean away from desired fall, with a long stretching hinge.

Increasing that; by putting more fiber in the levrage against lean area; yet reducing still the leverage against desired path; by simply slanting the BackCut for a tapered hinge shape. For i see the support as a balance across the compressed part of the hinge in the "Hinge Forensics" pix. The support are the long stretched fibers opposite the compressed fiber pivot. Quite simply, the farther apart you can get these 2, the more leverage of support, for this balance; just as the farther the C.o.B. is from the same compressed pivot, increases leveraged load.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 10, 2004)

i was asked to come see this today.

i've made all kinds of mistakes, so this isn't about nailing anyone etc. 

i think this education is serious; especially this particular one; on how not to get smooooooooshed!


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## wiley_p (May 10, 2004)

Without seeing the tree I cant say for sure but, if he was using say a 24" bar there wasnt enough lentgh for a doulble cut so I would have bored holding wood in the middle out from the face, that would have left 8"+ on each corner, still retaining guidance to the lay. This is all assuming the favor and face were properly sized up.


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## John Ellison (Aug 6, 2004)

This must be the work of an arborist, loggers can't make that complicated multi-directional face. Its about a 16'' oak, whats bad is the power line about 20' behind it.

John


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 29, 2004)

Church Voluntears


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 8, 2004)

More scary hinging just in time for Halloween. Kinda home owner cuts from the hurricanes.

The 2nd pictures show a tree fallen the wrong way; the 1st a tree fallen without a face. i think faceless falling can lead to a dreaded barber chair.

i think of a barberchair as happening because of the leveraged force of a tree and it's equal and opposite reaction confronting each other. Neither the force of the tree, nor it's mirror winning; giving a split decision that shears the spar apart with these awesome forces.

To not allow this to happen; i think the relief of the face + relief of the backcut has to lessen the mirror force and allow the fall.

The siezing pressure buildup that can cause a barberchair can be caused by no face, dutched face (neither giving enough relief to face, causing push back) or too slow a back cut under such shearing forces as a large tree. All 3 situations allowing a force buildup.

That force is set into test the soundness of the spar; which can shear up it's center in this split decision of matched forces at some point.

Or something like that; 
no place i wanna be!
:alien:


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## jason j ladue (Apr 14, 2005)

this  is exactly the kind of subject matter what we need to get back to on this site. this thread is un freakin believable. everybody on this site should read and digest this entire thread. super high quality education. like a college course intensity. massive ammounts of knowledge here... thanks kc, maas, silver blue (you're missed; ellison too). thanks guys. my hat's off to you.


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## ozy365 (Apr 14, 2005)

I read most of the thread, but I am still unclear on what a dutchman is in this context. Could someone give me a definition? I'll bet this will read like a new thread to me with the lesson in vocabulary.


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## clearance (Apr 14, 2005)

A dutchman is the term for when the undercut is sawn in such a manner that the two cuts it takes to make the undercut do not line up, by accident or intention. Specifically this means when the first cut (the one at 90 degrees to the stem) extends past the one that is on a 30 to 45 degree angle. When the tree falls, it stops momentarily on this flat spot, this can cause the tree to chair or fall in the wrong direction. It can also be used on purpose to swing or throw a tree, by putting in a dutchman and then cutting off the holding wood on the same side as the dutchman, proffesional fallers can make the tree fall into the preffered lay. This practice is prohibited by our workers compensation board, I don't use it myself, but men that fall big wood do what they want because they know how to make it work.


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## NeTree (Apr 14, 2005)

Wow... had to drag this ole thread up.

Anywho, here's some forensics for ya.... more of those cuts you all know I love.


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## geofore (Apr 15, 2005)

*stump cuts you love?*

The high angle of attack, the one on the left, the backcut starts 8"-12" high and angles down. No way to put a wedge in to give you an assist. The backcut breaks out if you try to tap a wedge in for an assist. The real danger comes later, the stump was not cut flush after the tree fell and if someone falls on it they are more likely to end up with stiches from being cut by the spike left pointed, sharp edge up. The guy should have at least cut the stump flush (level) even if he got the tree down with that lousy cut. The danger is the point sticking up for someone to fall on. Cut it off flat. Remove the accident waiting to happen. The one on the right, sad attempt at a Humbolt, still way high on the backcut. Looks as if the tree had enough lean to go over in the right direction without the facecut. Tearout in the front. The job looks unfinished with the stumps standing there so high. Wonder why he didn't cut them off lower, (ALAP) as low as possible, after the trees were down it doesn't take too much effort to cut the stumps flush. The cuts say he doesn't know any better, he didn't read his manuals that came with his saw, not that he ran out of gas/broke his saw and couldn't finish the job.


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## NeTree (Apr 15, 2005)

FWIW, Liz took that pic a few weeks ago. I asked her about it, and they're still there.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 16, 2005)

*Let's go Dutch...*

i think Dent ("Professional Timber Falling- a Procedural Approach")leans to a broader term of Dutchman; as any early closing in face; though i think a Swing Dutchman as de-scribed closes on the side in severe sidelean(fierce enough to pinch it closed off end of hinge not maid all the way across).

To this definition, a climber's snap-cut of coming straight down into a kerf of a horizontal limb; is a type of purposeful, early closing/push in face. 

Dent talks about crossing cuts as a Kerf Dutchman; noting that it is most likely accidental; though there are purposefull uses. i beleive the first Dutchman he proposes is a step Dutchman with a block of wood in the lean side face; this gives later closing/push than a kerf in that side. i may make a narrow face, then open up offside top imitate the 2 tiered level of closes operating the 2 sides of face independantly 'in tree' a lot. 

In using these purposefully, i have found that the 'floor' of the face cut cut too far; gives the mighty push up the spar for this kind of power(Kerf Dutchman). Crossing the top cut too far closes much later (if it does), and pushes across hinge; more like the floor in a 'perfect face/hinge' would push across the hinge fiber from start to finish anyway. The former pushing up the columnar length/strength of the broomstick/spar-at angle it won't give/flex; the latter pushing across the broomstick/spar at angle it will flex/hinge. This, topcut too far, more forgiving as accidental dutchman, not very helpful as purposeful one.

Operating the faces independantly in the 'Step Dutchman' format is awesome; though because of all the warnings i keep it mostly on non-huge and climbing cuts; to respect the warnings by these lower loading ranges. In normal hinging, with a Left side lean; before the faces close, there is some pull towards Left Lean by the hinge; a kerf in face on Left Lean side places push away from Left Lean, where there was pull towards the Left Lean. But, there must be enough speed and force to throw cleanly through the 'step'/kerf to lift/ push cleanly towards center face and not be siezed by the step/kerf! That is why i make a small face, then open the 'go to' side, so the branch can accelerate, and be at different angle, when it hits close on one side, to throw cleanly through the change in direction; and/or run the obstachle gauntlet...

In tree on horizontal sweeps, i'll nip bottom of tapered hinge with saw sometimes. The horizontal target path to the down pull of gravity gives severe 'sidelean' required in Dent's Swing Dutchman; so that the kerf at end of hinge will close before the face so kerf gives push up; lighten hinge's job. If the pressure is not enough to close end of hinge, then you have just shortened leverage of hinge, forced lots of leveraged fiber (because of lack of leverage per same load). Forcing lots of leveraged fiber on short hinge, then end closing to restoring leverage, gives both leverage and mass fiber (when usually you could only get one or the other; as they both multiply out to be equivalent to the load itself). The swing comes in (on ground, not horizontals- won't lift that far), cuz heavy lean side is pushing like hinge pivot, but not attached, so can swing around from it's push of face, pull of mass of fiber, and no attatchment on side swinging from. This only works in severest of sideleans That pinch end of hinge close); so i took it from the ground to the most severely leveraged by sidelean/distracting from path; horizontal rigs etc. for clearing roofs etc.


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## jason j ladue (Apr 16, 2005)

spyder, i love "listening" to you talk. you are voice to technical concepts i am able only to envision. that is what makes a great teacher. i would like to see some video of the "step dutchman" in use on a BIG one. the thing i enjoy most about this line of work is the tapping into physics. ya know lots of guys tell tall tales, but there is no room for baloney when it's time to get busy. if you say you know how to do it- you better. and if you dont know, you better step down...


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## Old Monkey (Apr 16, 2005)

I had the pleasure of doing tree work for my high school physics teacher a few years back. It was good to be able to thank him for his teachings. I may not pull out all the equations but the general principles are there and I use them frequently to try to picture "what is going to happen if I do this?"

Tree Spyder you are the professor here, thanks for your teachings.


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## ozy365 (Apr 17, 2005)

Tree spider:

Could you include some diagrams with your teaching? I am wading through your info, but alot of the vocabulary is beyond me and I spent way too long watching the girls in my physics classes to be able to keep up on text alone.


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## ozy365 (Apr 17, 2005)

Clearance et al: Thank you for the Vocab Primer


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 17, 2005)

My humble thanks...

May i suggest checking out the "Similar Threads" function/listing at bottom of each thread (like one at base of this page) for further research on hinging etc. (this particular topic).

i assume Ozy365 is asking about pushes in face/dutchmans pix; as most else pictured(?) i have several drawings archived at my sight: MyTreeLessons Archive Dutchmans. i guess it would be a good time for a warning about Barber Chair Forces. Index at bottom of each page.

There are many drawn diagrams, pictures here on hinging and rigging etc.

-KC


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## ozy365 (Apr 18, 2005)

Thank you for the link TreeSpyder


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## 1953greg (May 2, 2005)

im new to this site but not new to felling trees and would appreciate any comments. (example 24" diameter) about 90% of the time i attach cable 1/3 height of tree and use an open face cut (~30* wedge, bottom horizontal) to within about 2" of center of tree, perpendicular to desired fall. then i use plunge cut about 3-4" from face cut and cut outward and stop about 3-4" from edge. then i snug the cable and finish the backcut from the outside. this leaves the 3-4" hinge across the middle of stump for most control. then cable is tightened to pull tree over. sometimes if a lean is great i will throw a rope over the cable and add tangent pull for added control. bout 10% of the time i have plenty of room and cable isnt necessary. i am sure there are simpler methods but this method works for me as i havent lost one yet. came very close once when a tree had more decay on tension side than i had anticipated. am i missing something (or overkill) or am i doing what you guys do and just dont know your nomenclature? all i know how to use is an openface cut, plunge cut, and finish w/backcut cutting outward, leaving a strap to be finished cutting inward. 

kadoos to this site/thread and mytreelessons from thetreespyder!!!!!!!

thanks in advance. 1953greg


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## 056 kid (May 2, 2005)

The way you described your back cut is how we cut timber in VA. Except we leave about 1/2 inch of hinge wood. Do 90 precent of the trees need to be cabled? Or can you use wedges or maby nothin at all. A good way to tell is when you are makin the 1st cut in the notch side, watch the top of the tree. More times than not you can catch them swaying the slightest amount in the direction of natural lay. And if you have an eye enough to catch it you can usially still use some preventative teqniques to help her down. Because that does seem a bit extream cabling so much.


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## Stumper (May 2, 2005)

Most here (Arboristsite)set lines higher(2/3rds up), use rope, cut a more open face and only plunge cut and pop a strap if there is a heavy headlean. This doesn't mean that your technique has no merit but there are reasons why those differences are our normal method.
High ties provide more leverage and ensure that a tree won't go backward byjumping the stump and rotating around the center of mass.

Rope absorbs shock better than cable and stores energy when pretensioned allowing an anchored line to "take up" a bit. It is also easier to get into the top of the tree.

AN open face allows the tree to fall further before the faces close and rupture remaining hinge fibers .(depending upon species the hinge may break even with a wide face or may stay on the stump but an open face will prolong the hinge's control)

Plunging and then severing the strap serves to prevent barberchairing.(You are using a good, safe technique) Most trees that don't have a heavy load in the fall direction aren't big barberchair risks. Cutting from outside in to the hinge allows one to leave a thicker hinge that just barely allows the tree to begin moving and gives a slower softer fall. Maybe better, maybe not depending upon the situation.


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## 1953greg (May 2, 2005)

again thanks much, 
maybe only 80% but it seems that 4 of 5 are always leaning or loaded at least 90* to the only area available to fall. amazing how the tree always beats the odds isnt it? im not a climber so i cant take them down from the top. bout 30-35' up is as hi as i can get a loaded string (with slack) thrown from between my knees, attached to rope, attached to 1/4" cable. can/how do you get it any higher from the ground? anyhow, with a come-a-long on the cable i get adequate pull. maybe i leave too much hinge, but they keep falling anyhow. i use wedges less than i used to. i guess i just need more "insurance" as i get older (52). sometimes i will cut the hinge down to 2-3" after the strap has been cut, but never more. 

a stright tree in the wide open is a lay-up (basketball term). if one cant hit those they wont be on the team. u know what i mean?

thanks stumper and kid

i really appreciate the comments 1953greg


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## Stumper (May 2, 2005)

Greg, With a throwbag and line setting at 50-60 feet is reasonable. With a Big Shot sets at over 100 feet are reasonable.

BIG SHOT Standard Kit/ with two 4 foot poles 
Your Price Availability Currently in Your Cart 
109.00 In Stock 
The BIG SHOT System Prior to Big Shot, distant line deliveries required an expensive CO2 or powder charged gun with its specifically designed projectile. The problem with guns is that if the target is less than a great distance away, the user runs the risk of grossly overfiring or worse. Using a manpowered throwbag is indeed simple, but often inaccurate and always requires a lot of practice to master. Big Shot can easily outdistance a hand thrown projectile, and can handle a larger variety of projectiles than a line gun. The Big Shot is unique in its soft touch ability to accurately place a line less than a great distance away. Its ability to fire a wide range of materials without the use of gun powder, pressurized and expensive cartridges, special permits or other expense helps create an experienced user faster. Now, using the Bow Hunter reel with a light line you can reach 150 vertical feet with ease while 200 feet is not unusual with limited practice. The Big Shot head is designed to fit into the metal, female end of an 8 foot, heavy-duty, fiberglass pruner extension pole and nothing else. The complete Big Shot system sets up in only seconds and weighs less than 10 pounds. No other method of line delivery requires so little equipment and expense to do so much!
Big Shot with two 4' poles. 

I couldn't get a link to work so I copied a description. Click on the Sherril logo/link at the top of the page and search their site for Big Shot-includes pictures.


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## Lumberjack (May 3, 2005)

+1 for the Big Shot

Its one of the first things anyone should buy, feller or climber.


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## Dan R Porter (Jul 29, 2006)

Just wanted to open this thread again. I will have stump pics soon


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## Fireaxman (Jul 31, 2006)

I'm with ya. I've seen some pretty cute ones lately myself, comming in behind some of the FEMA crews. I'll try to get back into Tchefuncte and Old River Landing and get some picts before the stump grinders get there.


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