# Am I doing something wrong



## mingom (Dec 11, 2011)

Hey guys, 

I've got my woodmaster cranking pretty good these past few days with the set points between 175 and 180. My backup is a propane boiler in the basement. My issue is that I seem to be using more propane than I expected (first season with the house) the guy I bought it from said he used the owb as the primary and about 300 gal of propane a year ( stove, dryer, furnace). I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong with the owb, it seems to be kicking on quite a bit, is there a way to test the heat transfer from the stove, or do i need to adjust the aqua stat in the basement on the lines by the heat exchanger? Any help is appreciated.


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## atlarge54 (Dec 11, 2011)

Is your wood seasoned AND DRY or did you buy the BS story that green wood burns just fine? What do you have for underground lines? Underground lines can eat up TONS of BTU's. Your temps on the boiler might be tweaked up a bit but I'd wager the problem lies elsewhere. 

It never fails, every year people seem to show up and ask, "I've got a great big house with leaky windows and poor insulation and can't seem to heat it very well." Welcome to this forum-----I hope you're not what I just described.

You need to provide more details on your system to get any real help. Lots of possibilities, keep in mind raising the boiler temp always increases the amount of heat wasted. Lots and lots of OWBs have been sold and installed by people with marginal knowledge about heating systems. 

Hopefully you will find some help here.


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## hanniedog (Dec 11, 2011)

Try turning the aquastat down a bit. I have the aquastat on my Harman wood boiler set on approx 140 to kick the propane unit on. If the system worked for the previous owner should be something minor.


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## mingom (Dec 11, 2011)

My wood is dry, some beyond the optimum point. The previous owner said it worked awesome for him and the owner before him. I believe I have 1 inch pex lines in an insulated tube run into the house which goes to a liquid to liquid heat exchanger. I'm hoping it's just a tweak I have to make. Ill have to look at what the aqua stat is set at. Thanks for the help!


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## atlarge54 (Dec 11, 2011)

If the system used to work fine, something to consider has the water treatment been kept up? Does the system have Wye strainers? Maybe the plate Hx has lime and or sediment?


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## mingom (Dec 12, 2011)

That I am not sure of. I haven't seen any wye strainers anywhere. Any way to check the system easily? I'm hoping to make it through the season, then this summer really give the system a going through. I'm still learning how the whole system interacts with itself. It seems to me that the OWB comes into the heat exchanger, which then ties into my house loop off the propane furnace to provide both domestic hot water and the heat for the radiant floors and baseboards. It breaks out into 7-8 zones from there to supply the different parts of the house. Whoever did the original plumbing did an amazing job laying it out, I'm just trying to make sure everything is kosher with the owb. 

Thanks again!


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## russhd1997 (Dec 12, 2011)

Turn the thermostat on the control for the propane burner to the minimum setting. This will fake out the system in the house so to speak. Then set the control on the OWB so that it has a 10 degree cycle not 5. This will increase the time between burn cycles and save some wood. Mine is set to come on at 175 and shut off at 185.


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## greendohn (Dec 12, 2011)

russhd1997 said:


> Turn the thermostat on the control for the propane burner to the minimum setting. This will fake out the system in the house so to speak. Then set the control on the OWB so that it has a 10 degree cycle not 5. This will increase the time between burn cycles and save some wood. Mine is set to come on at 175 and shut off at 185.




I'm no HAVAC guy, but it makes sense to turn the thermostat down on the L.P. side and let the woodmaster carry the load. If the OWB is cycling plenty, it would be an indication that heat is being pulled off of it, hopefully heating the house, and it's doing it's job, "cycling-kicking on-off" keeping the water at the set temp. My woodmaster, as most all wood burners, is dependent on the quality/type of wood your burning. ie..junk/soft/wet wood,,lots of cycling of the blower, lots of smoke, and a black eye for us OWB owners..well seasoned wood, junk and or soft wood,,well seasoned, fewer cycles of blower, more complete burn, less smoke..and lets not forget out door temps,,the colder it gets out side,,the harder your stove is going to work and more wood you will burn..I only have the OWB and a 90+ L.P. furnace. a couple of my windows are still junk(I'll replace 'em as money allows) but I haven,t spent one dime heating my house with L.P. since the OWB install back in '07.. I generally keep my OWB set at 170-180 once cold weather sets in..good luck man, keep faith, it'll all come together..peace.


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## mingom (Dec 18, 2011)

Alright guys, took a look at the aquastat, which is clamped on the owb side of the heat exchanger, and it is set to what looks to be 80? Last night temps got down into the singles and i used up 5 lbs at least of propane, along with burning the owb, so I'm really trying to figure this out so I don't have to keep buying propane! I'm thinking its just tweaking some settings since the former owner had no issues that I know of.

Thanks for your help!


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## hanniedog (Dec 18, 2011)

Set the aqua stat done to say 70 and see what happens. Another option is find out who did the install and have them check things out. If your are bringing in 180 degree water the propane unit should not run at all.


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## bluestem (Dec 18, 2011)

Do you have temp gauges on the supply and return lines at the OWB, would be interesting to know how much heat you are losing during a cycle. Also what's the temp of the supply line when it comes in the house. These bits of knowledge might help folks here troubleshoot.


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## mingom (Dec 18, 2011)

I don't have gauges, but I might be able to use an IR to get readings. The purpose of the aquastat on the incoming lines is to control the temp at which the propane furnace kicks on correct? If it is set at 80 (70 now), there is no way I'm loosing 100+ degrees of heat coming into the house to make that kick on. The wiring for the aquastat runs directly back to a taco zone control unit.


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## mga (Dec 18, 2011)

i have a dumb question: why is the propane heater even turned on?

if the OWB isn't supplying enough heat find out why. i thought those things were supposed to blow you out of the house with heat.

my gas boiler hasn't run in 4 -5 years...we heat strictly with wood.


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## hanniedog (Dec 18, 2011)

The propane unit is set to turn on when ever the water gets down to a certain temp as dictated by the aqua stat.


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## mga (Dec 18, 2011)

hanniedog said:


> The propane unit is set to turn on when ever the water gets down to a certain temp as dictated by the aqua stat.



i understand that, but, isn't the question here is why isn't the OWB supplying enough heat? if that thing was heating properly, i see no reason for the propane heat to even think of running.

either that OWB is grossly inefficient or installed incorrectly, or the house is totally uninsulated.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 18, 2011)

For troubleshooting purposes shut off the propane burner. Then you can see what heat the wood burner is supplying and where it is going. Either it isn't supplying enough heat, or the heat isn't getting into the water system, or the water from it is not circulating.


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## mingom (Dec 18, 2011)

As far as I have read (I inherited this unit when I bought the house), this has plenty of capacity to provide for the house. The house is 5 years old, well insulated, radient heat on the first floor baseboard on the 2nd, rooms not being used set to 50 degrees. The former owner had no known issues that I know of, and the owner before that has had 3 of these units. I really think its some setpoint that is messed up somewhere but I'm not completely familiar with the whole system. To map it out:

I have the OWB, with setpoints of 175 L and 180 H. Comes into the house via pex, into a liquid to liquid heat exchanger at which the honeywell aquastat is attached to the OWB side. The piping then runs from this to tie into the home loop, which consists of 7 zone valves, a Crown propane boiler w/tankless hot water.


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## darren_nh (Dec 18, 2011)

Shut off the propane furnace.


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## J1m (Dec 18, 2011)

mingom,

I sent you a private message with the contact information of a guy in Southern Maine who specializes in OWB installs.

Let us know if/when you get it sorted out and what the issue was.


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## mingom (Dec 18, 2011)

Thanks for all the help guys, I'm planning on calling that contact this week! In regards to shutting off the propane furnace, will/could that effect my hot water supply? I'm all for shutting it down to see what happens, I just want to make sure I'll have hot water for everything. Thanks!
;'


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## hanniedog (Dec 18, 2011)

Don't be to quick to shut off your propane unit. Your system maybe using the circulating pump on the gas furnace.


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## atlarge54 (Dec 18, 2011)

I'd be amazed if there isn't a gas valve at the furnace that allows other appliances to remain in operation. Does the boiler have a pilot or electonic ignitor? 

Try to be like a good doctor and..............DO NO HARM.


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## mingom (Dec 18, 2011)

No pilot, its electric ignition.


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## mingom (Dec 19, 2011)

Just an update, sent an email to the guy J1M recommended, calling tomorrow. Haven't shut off the propane, not sure if I should/whether it would kill all my zone controllers. I did open up the triple aquastat on the propane unit, found the settings at 120 L, 140 H, 15 degree differential. Hope to resolve this soon before it costs me too much more in propane.


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## mingom (Dec 20, 2011)

Talked to the guy today, his thoughts were that its either my pex lines bleeding heat into the ground, or my pump is not working correctly at the boiler. I'm hoping its the pump. I took temp readings using a thermocouple hooked to the copper line right after the pex and got readings around 160-164 pretty constantly (with a few drops here and there to 145 ish, i think it was just how I was holding it). The boiler ETC was reading 169, so no huge loss there it seems. So hopefully its the pump, does anyone have any ideas on how to check it/ how to change it with the boiler running?

Thanks,


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## Oxford (Dec 20, 2011)

Without seeing where your pump is (outside at the wood boiler or inside at the HX, for example,) I can tell you that centrifugal pumps like the wet-rotor pumps that are typical in OWB installations don't pump for a variety of reasons, but the easiest way to tell if they're pumping is with an amp-clamp. Read the (F)ull (L)oad (A)mps of the pump motor on its nameplate and then clamp ONE of the leads to the motor. If it's moving water, it should be drawing roughly 80% FLA, depending on the system it's in. If it's not, it's because:

1. The impeller is shot in the pump from oxygen pitting, cavitation, or abrasive material in the water.
2. It's air-bound. Try closing a valve on the discharge of the pump, then opening it. Does the sound change? It should. Open a bleed fitting on the discharge. You should get a straight stream of water, no air.
3. You're low on water.
4. You have a restriction in your system. A zone valve on your HX is bad, an isolation valve is closed or throttled, something like that.

If you don't have a clamp, you're going to have to shut off the propane boiler, probably by turning its thermostat way down, then measuring temperature change across your heat exchanger. Your OWB return water temperature should be about 5 degrees warmer than your indoor boiler target temperature, and your OWB supply should probably be 20 degrees warmer. If that water is not cooling, it's not flowing.

These same things are true for your indoor boiler loop as well. Make sure it's at 12# pressure and full all the way, or it won't work either.

Good luck,

Oxford


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## mingom (Dec 20, 2011)

Pump is outdoors, right at the OWB. I think I can grab a clamp on from work tomorrow, hopefully will be able to check that.


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## mingom (Dec 21, 2011)

Basic sketch of the system. Still no ideas, need to borrow the clamp on from work tomorrow.

View attachment 212661


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## bluestem (Dec 21, 2011)

Here is your diagram:







So going back and reading the thread, 

the Triple Aquastat on the propane end is set at 120 to 140
the Honeywell Aquastat is set at 80 (is this a heat exchanger or mixing valve?)

If this is correct, and you want the propane to not come on don't you want these switched or am I completely lost with your system?


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## mingom (Dec 21, 2011)

bluestem said:


> Here is your diagram:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The honeywell aquastat is clamped on at the heat exchanger, set at 80 and wired back to a taco SR501 relay


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## Sawmill (Dec 21, 2011)

Do you have a shutoff vavle between your pump and furnace? Mine has one on each side of the pump. If you can avoid doing so don't take the line off the pump as they will get shorter and you won't be able to get your pump back and hooked up. See if you can just replace the cartiage.


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## kykayaker27 (Dec 21, 2011)

my family uses a huge owb for heating a greenhouse usually every couple years one of the pumps die,and last year we chnged out a couple of radiators got air in the line what a pain,keep chugging rite along man those owb are a lifesaver,dave


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## russhd1997 (Dec 22, 2011)

The way that I set my system up the hot water from the OWB goes directly to the boiler in the house first. The rest of the heating system is plumbed to the boiler in the house so that if I had to use my oil burner all that I have to do is turn off the OWB and close a couple of valves. I have a heat exchanger that is plumbed into the Return Line to the OWB.


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## saw dog (Dec 22, 2011)

Hi
If I read your post correctly you are the third owner of the house in 5 years, may be that it cost to much to heat the house is the reason for so much turn over in ownership. Just a thought, probably doesent even apply but a thought. Good luck hope it all works out.


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## 1grnlwn (Dec 22, 2011)

There has to be a way to shut off the propane boiler, if for no other reason to see if the OWB will heat the whole house and to see what happens to the domestic system. It could be educational, simulating running out of propane, for example.


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## hanniedog (Dec 22, 2011)

Glad I went with an indoor pressurized unit, don't have the heat exchanger to deal with. Plus once the system is up and running you don't have bleed the air every year. System is simple wood boiler has 24/7 pump on it, it is plumbed into the return of the propane unit. There are three electric valve that either allow heated water to the house or makes a loop back to the wood burner. When the house calls for heat the valves open and the pump on the propane unit kicks on to supply heat to the house. There is an aqua stat that prevents the propane unit from firing until water gets to near 140 at the wood burner. When it trips the propane unit fires up and the valves go back to a loop so as not to heat the water in the wood burner. Hope you get things sorted out.


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## mingom (Dec 22, 2011)

saw dog said:


> Hi
> If I read your post correctly you are the third owner of the house in 5 years, may be that it cost to much to heat the house is the reason for so much turn over in ownership. Just a thought, probably doesent even apply but a thought. Good luck hope it all works out.



I don't believe so, at least I hope. I know the first owner left due to financial reasons/owning a farm in another state, his parents still live next door to me, and his brother on the other side. The owners we bought it from owned some tim hortons franchises, a few of which closed so they moved closer to the other franchises.


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## mingom (Dec 26, 2011)

I've got a woodboiler installation guy stopping by tomorrow to check out the system. He's leaning towards poor quality/poorly insulated pex lines, but says theres still time to install new ones before everything is fully frozen (groundwise). I'm still hoping there is something else going on instead.


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## Oxford (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm going to try one more time. I am a service pipefitter who spends a bunch of time with large hydronic heating systems. Some people think I know what I'm talking about.

Do these things in order and write down the numbers:

1. Measure the supply and return temperatures to both your OWB and the inside loop side of your indoor HX.

2. You previously measured current draw of your OWB pump at about 1/3 of full load. This means that it's not moving much water, either because the head is too high (restricted valve or plugged HX) or because the pump is toast.

3. You also mention in another thread that the pump is making a grinding noise. This noise is either mechanical, from interference in the machinery of the pump - unlikely as the amp draw is low but possible - or as a result of pump cavitation due to a restricted suction on the pump. If your drawing is correct and the pump is pumping away from the boiler, is it possible that there is trash in the suction line to the pump? SLIGHTLY loosen the flange bolts on the suction side of the pump and see if water comes out while the pump is running. If it doesn't, your suction line is plugged.

4. If your boiler is delivering 165* water and the return is more than 15* cooler than the supply, you're not delivering enough OWB water to the HX. I strongly doubt that your underground pipes have lost enough R value that they are no longer insulated. How much wood are you using? If your OWB fuel consumption has not skyrocketed, you don't have heat transfer anywhere, either to the ground or to your house.

Good luck to you, since good advice appears to be wasted.


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## mingom (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks for the advice, it is not unheeded. I took temp readings at all points as best I could before and posted them, but I'm not sure how accurate they are as they are being taken using a thermocouple and a multimeter. I started investigating the pump a bit more and realized it is a pump on the return side, pumping hot water from the indoor system to the hx.

You could be correct that I'm not transferring correctly, I don't know if the OWB consumption has gone up as this is my first season with it. It seems like I'm burning an awful lot of wood.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm not listening to your advice, I'm trying. I just am concerned about the fuel i'm burning on both sides and was recommended this boiler guy by an arboristsite member.

Thanks.


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## sw18x (Dec 26, 2011)

Don't know if this will help, but I'm getting deja vu reading your post. Rather than figure out your system, I just want to pass along my experience in case it gives you any help troubleshooting. We bought our house last March and only ran the woodburner a week so it wasn't until this October that I started to analyze how the whole system worked. The first thing I noticed was, similar to what you're describing, even with the woodburner blasting our gas furnace was coming on all the time. Here's our set up: a Mahoning woodburner (290 gallons) sends hot water into a SuperStor Ultra indirect fired hot water tank in the basement. This hot water tank has a single wall heat exchanger, so heat is transferred at this point from the wood boiler water to the water for our baseboard heating system. The pump from the OWB to the heat exchanger runs continuously, and we set the OWB at 190 degrees, which results in water temps between 165 - 175 degrees (aquastat on the OWB is screwed up a bit). The heated water then exits the SuperStor tank and enters a Smith gas fired boiler, from there up into the house to do its job via a second circulator pump.

First we had a heating/cooling guy come over to clean the gas furnace and try to make sense of the system for us. On the way out, he noticed one of the numerous valves in the maze of copper piping in the basement was closed - it just happened to be the valve that allowed the hot water from the heat exchanger to mix with the water from the gas boiler. So first lesson learned: look for simple solutions. This seemed to help, but we were still hearing the gas boiler come on nearly every time the house thermostat kicks on, although it wasn't staying on as long as before. I spent some more time in the basement watching the furnace cycle through, and here's what was happening:

The Smith boiler has an aquastat which measures the temp of the water _inside_ the gas boiler reservoir. The minimum setting for this aquastat is 180 degrees, so that's where we set it. When the thermostat in the house turns on, two things happen: the circulator pump starts pumping water through the system, and the aquastat in the gas boiler kicks on the gas furnace if the water temp in the boiler reservoir is low enough. The problem was, because the water inside the boiler had cooled down to 130 or 140 degrees between cycles, the gas boiler ALWAYS came on, even though I had hot 175 degree water waiting in the tank with the heat exchanger. Eventually, the pump brought this hot water through the gas boiler reservoir on its way up into the house, so running the wood burner at 175 degrees shortened the amount of time it took the gas boiler to raise the water temp in the reservoir from 140 to 180 degrees from about 10 minutes to 2 or 3. But the gas boiler was still coming on, so the solution: I unplugged the wires on the gas boiler aquastat and plugged them into the aquastat on the indirect fired water heater tank (in fact, eventually I just unplugged the aquastat altogether). So second lesson learned - don't let your aquastat fire based on cold water sitting in a reservoir between cycles, make sure it's measuring the temp of the water that's actually doing the work in the system. I'm not sure if this could be happening in your case, but it's something to think about. Our gas boiler doesn't fire at all anymore, and we're heating a poorly insulated 1870's 2600 square foot farm house on 10 - 12 hour burns, so it can be done.


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## atlarge54 (Dec 27, 2011)

Your symptoms don't sound like the cause is a bad line set. You should still be able to get the house warm----however your wood consumption would be higher than normal.

What does the lineset look like where it enters the home?

I hope your tech has more emphasis on tech and less on sales. Spend some time with him and get an explaination of your system and take notes.


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## mingom (Dec 27, 2011)

I guess part of my issue is that I don't know what my normal wood consumption would be as this is my first season with the boiler, hopefully he can steer me in the right direction, if I feel its just a sales pitch I'll go on my way and go from there.


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## Sawmill (Dec 27, 2011)

One thing, you said your pump is on the return line. If it is a circulation type pump it won't work good that way. It should be on your line going into the house.


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## mingom (Dec 27, 2011)

Okay, so the OWB installer came and left with some suggestions. We think the issue lies within the plate to plate heat exchanger, with it being a.) seemingly plugged, and b.) undersized for the application. I have a 20 plate hx, and he recommended upsizing to either a 40 or 50 plate, and putting ball valves and tees in on all four inlets so we can run hydrocloric acid through it easily when it begins to scale up again. He's estimating about 1000-1200 dollar job to put in a new hx, all the piping, and adding 2 new aquastats to control the system. One to kill power to the propane unit at B1 until it has to come one, and one to control the blower at the OWB (if the temp gets below 130 or so, as if I left and didn't fill, it would kill power).

Just wanted to give you an update. Thanks for all the help! I appreciate any comments and help!


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## atlarge54 (Dec 27, 2011)

atlarge54 said:


> If the system used to work fine, something to consider has the water treatment been kept up? Does the system have Wye strainers? Maybe the plate Hx has lime and or sediment?




Bingo, now don't ignore the strainers and water treatment. I avoided plate exchangers because of seeing too many problems with lime and sediment. Does it help to mount them with any particular orientation? Hope your boiler didn't suffer too bad regarding corrosion, the open side of your system requires watching. 

If you do the upgrade it'd be nice to have a few temp gauges in place so you can see what the exchanger is doing.

Nice to see you're getting things sorted out.


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## mingom (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks, I appreciate the help, sorry if people haven't thought I have been listening to their advice. What do you mean suffered with corrosion, from the minerals in the water? I'll definitely be adding places to flush out the system/fill, add some temp gauges. He also said he likes to put in swiffer valves on either end to blow out water if I'll be gone for a long time. If anyone has suggestions on what to get in terms of a hx and valving, please let me know!


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## atlarge54 (Dec 27, 2011)

The OWB side is open to the atmosphere and the water can absorb oxygen which is corrosive. The inside system is closed to the atmosphere and whatever oxygen is in the system is "consumed" and no more oxygen becomes available----if the pex has an oxygen barrier present. Both systems need treatment but the open system is more critical.


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## Oxford (Dec 27, 2011)

Well, you're part of the way. Before you condemn that HX bear in mind that, depending on manufacturer, a 20-plate exchanger is good for 125k to 175k BTU/H. You don't need that much unless you're running a greenhouse or a commercial laundry.

If I were you, I'd pipe in four full-port ball valves as isolation valves for the heat exchanger. I would also pipe a bypass on the boiler side of the heat exchanger, so you can run on the gas boiler as you're cleaning the HX. I would put three tees in each of the four lines between the isolation valve and the heat exchanger, one each for temperature and pressure gauges and one with a boiler drain. This will give you a place to drain each side as well as access for a circulating pump to circulate the acid that you're going to need to clean out the lime from your heat exchanger.

After you have it clean, note the pressure drop through your exchanger on both sides. When that pressure drop goes up, that's an indicator that your exchanger is fouling. I doubt that it's fouled on the pressurized side, since very little water goes into that system. It's closed, so there is no evaporative loss and no makeup to add minerals to the system as it evaporates. As other posters have noted, it's important to treat your water so that this doesn't happen again in the future.

I don't think I'd stick $1200 in an exchanger until I knew for sure I couldn't clean the one I had. You can do the piping as described for probably $200 in materials if you're reasonably handy. You're going to have to do it if you change out the exchanger anyway and having the valves will make the change easier if you have to do it.

Good luck.


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## mingom (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks for the help Oxford, I appreciate it. I have an AIC LB31-20x seen here: Brazed Plate Heat Exchanger LB31-20. Flat Plate Heat Exchanger. Hydronic Heat


Is this what you were thinking? The Valve closest to the HX in each is the boiler drain, couldn't get a drain symbol to work.

View attachment 213675


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## Oxford (Dec 27, 2011)

Yes, but remember to pipe it off a tee. The best way, if the orientation of your HX allows it, is to put one high and one low, so that the high one acts as a vent and the low as a drain.

Also, your HX is good for 128kBTU/hr. If your house is well-insulated and not huge, that should be enough if it's operating correctly I would think.


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## mingom (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm looking into it Oxford, is there any direct calculation for sizing the hx? I have about 3000 sf to heat approx, maybe a little less. I was looking at possibly this if I need to upsize.

40-plate Brazed Heat Exchanger (1" MNPT)

I didn't know if anyone had used a Brazetek before.

Also, any suggestions on an aquastat to drop in, to be wired back to B1 on the propane unit to keep it from coming on.


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## Oxford (Dec 28, 2011)

I am a great fan of changing one thing at a time. Until you inspect the heat exchanger that you already have (and maybe not even then), you don't know what your problem is. If previous owners had plenty of heat, it stands to reason that you should too. Something has changed, but it's not the physical layout of the equipment. One thing I didn't mention is to put unions on all four connections of your heat exchanger.

Although I have a pretty good idea what you're trying to do, I'm drawing a line at telling you how to interrupt your boiler controls. If I could physically see and touch your system and verify functionality of the controls, OK. Definitely not over the internet. AND, I'll say again, *it worked before*. You should not change anything until you get gauges at your heat exchanger so you can start understanding your problem.

Good luck.


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## mingom (Dec 29, 2011)

I appreciate your help, and the reasons why you don't wnt to offer advice on the controls side of things, I build industrial automation equipment and wouldn't want to advise without seeing the equipment firsthand. On that note, do you think its worth keeping the 20 plate hx, having it plumbed in correctly and flushed and seeing what happens? That would save me at least $430 dollars (the price of the hx he wants to use). I believe then if the hx was undersized, I could swap it out easy, as I could isolate it and all 5 x 12 hx's have about the same plumbing. 

Again, thanks for the help. This is my first house and go around with an OWB


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## Iska3 (Dec 29, 2011)

I have been following your post and there is some very good advice on here so far. If it was me, I’d remove and flush your heat exchanger and when you re-install it, do it right. I use a 10 plate for my hot water. I put ball valves and Y strainers on both incoming and out going lines on my exchanger and I also put unions on each line. My thinking was if the exchanger were to get plugged, I could connect a small pump to the exchanger via the unions and flush my exchanger without taking it off. I also installed a pressure gage on my line so I can watch the pressure. Like Oxford said, IF I see and increase in pressure, I know my exchanger is full of scale. With the vales in place, I can also clean my Y strainers. 

I read where they installed your pump on the return line. Those pumps are small and the theory was on a boiler they put the pump on the return line because that side had less heat and the pump would last longer. With your OWB you are pushing water back to the system with the pump but keep in mind that the feed side is higher so the water flow on the inlet side helps the pump pressure. Would this make a difference if the pump was on the inlet side? I’m not sure. Either way should work. Keep in mind that they were a suction pump. We had a small 007 pump sucking water up 18 ft to an old car radiator and it worked fine. 

Your 20 plate exchanger should be more than enough to heat your home. You can flush the exchanger with an acid or like one person wrote last year, find a place that sells the chemical to clean commercial ice makers. It isn’t as harsh on the exchange and does a good job of cleaning the lime. 

Oxford is right…. One thing at a time… Clean the Y screens and flush the exchanger. It might need to soak for a few days. Next summer flush the exchanger when the system is down for the season. Do you have soft water? 


View attachment 214064
View attachment 214064


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## Oxford (Dec 29, 2011)

Keep the 20 plate, clean and flush it, and see if your problems are solved. It bears repeating: *THIS SYSTEM WORKED BEFORE*.
Shut off the fill line to your indoor boiler, kill the power, drain it down. Break the HX piping loose from it and repipe with a bypass. Put it in bypass, start the indoor boiler so your house doesn't get cold. Break the OWB side free, drain as much as necessary. Soak it in ice machine cleaner (or vinegar, or Coke, or some other relatively mild acid) after you look inside it and see it limed solid. Change the solution as it becomes weaker, check with pH strips to verify initial strength and subsequent weakening. Once it's clean, reinstall as previously discussed, bleed the air on both sides, and your house will be warm, I'll bet. You are going to have to break out the pipe wrenches and head to the hardware store here pretty quick or this is just a thought exercise.

Good luck and get out your pipe wrenches.


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## J1m (Jan 1, 2012)

So, what'd you end up doing...And did it solve your problems, mingom??


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## mingom (Jan 22, 2012)

Sorry to have been MIA for so long, things have been a bit crazy with work and such. I had a 40 plate heat exchanger installed along with the fixes to the plumbing, I felt it was the best option at the time. Things do seem better, however I am still using some propane. It seems like the new hx works really well, my OWB temps sometimes drop down to 150-149 degrees from the 180 degree set point, I believe this shows a large heat draw from the house. I appreciate all the help, and would like to hear any comments or suggestions on why I am still using some propane. I'm going to be in contact with my boiler guy to ask the same this week.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 22, 2012)

Not to sound flippant, and I don't even have an OWB (or a hydronic heating system any more), but your LP system is kicking on because something is turning it on. That's probably one of two issues:

1. The aquastat is turning it on. You've got two sources of heat going into the furnace - the burner and the OWB HX. When the circulator runs you get a big shot of cold water returning from the radiators in the house. That cools off the water in the furnace reservoir. If the furnace doesn't "know" anything about the OWB, then it's supposed to heat that water up again. So if the heat output from the OWB isn't heating that up fast enough, the furnace will do it. I have no idea how OWB installations deal with that.

2. Hot water heating system controls generally turn the burner on as soon as the thermostat calls for heat, instead of just turning on the circulator and letting the aquastat run the burner. That's in anticipation of the big shot of cold water that will be on it's way.

Again, if the furnace doesn't "know" about the OWB HX that's been added, it will try to work as it was designed to. This is the problem with any of these "add-on" systems people tack onto their heating systems. It can certainly work well, but you'll need to learn how the existing system works inside and out before you can expect to fundamentally modify it's design with a second heat input.


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## mingom (Jan 23, 2012)

I'm not sure I understand your post. The water from the OWB / HX gets transitioned into the heating system ahead of the LP burner, feeds through the burner, then to the house system. If the LP system sees a temp drop below its setpoint, then it fires. The same goes on the return side, the cool water cycles out to the HX, then back to the system. I appreciate everyone's input.


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## J1m (Jan 23, 2012)

mingom said:


> Sorry to have been MIA for so long, things have been a bit crazy with work and such. I had a 40 plate heat exchanger installed along with the fixes to the plumbing, I felt it was the best option at the time. Things do seem better, however I am still using some propane. It seems like the new hx works really well, my OWB temps sometimes drop down to 150-149 degrees from the 180 degree set point, I believe this shows a large heat draw from the house. I appreciate all the help, and would like to hear any comments or suggestions on why I am still using some propane. I'm going to be in contact with my boiler guy to ask the same this week.



I'm no expert, but this has happened to me a few times too - so I might be able to steer you in the right direction.

What is your low set point on the boiler? If your water is getting down to 150, all you need to do is raise your low-end set point. I have mine to come on at 170 and off at 180. Mine is also set up like yours where the oil furnace will come on as a redundancy at 140, so all I have to do is keep my water temp above that and I never burn any oil. Perhaps the other thing you can do is lower the temp at your propane furnace so that it doesn't come on when the water temp is that warm.

If this doesn't help or if you can't understand my rambling, RE is expecting your call.


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## owbguy (Jan 23, 2012)

russhd1997 said:


> turn the thermostat on the control for the propane burner to the minimum setting. This will fake out the system in the house so to speak. Then set the control on the owb so that it has a 10 degree cycle not 5. This will increase the time between burn cycles and save some wood. Mine is set to come on at 175 and shut off at 185.



this ^^


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## Chris-PA (Jan 23, 2012)

Sorry if I wasn't clear. In my old home I had an oil fired hot water heating system that I got to know quite well. No secondary wood system at all. When the thermostat calls for heat, the circulator comes on and they turn on the burner in anticipation of a big shot of cold water from the pipes and radiators in the house that's on it's way to back to the furnace. When that gets to the furnace the temperature of the reservoir can drop almost instantly. It's quite common then for the circulator to turn back off until the burner can heat the water back up to the minimum setpoint and let the circuator run again. That's with a burner with a lot of output capacity running full tilt. 

So the issue is instantaneous output capacity - the temperature of the internal reservoir may sometimes drop very quickly toward room temp and even with the additional input from your OWB HX I doubt it will keep it above the setpoint to turn on the burner. The heat from the OWB would certainly reduce the amount of fuel you'd use, but how do you keep it from running at all without turning it off or changing the setpoints?


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## mingom (Jan 23, 2012)

Okay I think I'm understanding where you're coming from... I just have heard many stories of those with OWB's setup just like mine not using any fuel during the heating season. 

I guess my other question, for those of you with OWB's particularly the 4400, how do you keep your temps up? I have my OWB set at 180 degrees with a 5 degree differential for kick on temp. Since the install of the new HX, i see temps that dip down to 150ish pretty consistently, which to me signifies a significant heat draw from the house (before i would hit 170- sometimes) It seems to be burning pretty decently, its been eating up some wood this past week with temps below zero most nights. I'd like to be able to keep the temps up to a more consistent level, and not have the blower run pretty much 24/7.

Any ideas?


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## owbguy (Jan 23, 2012)

mingom, I have not read all of this thread yet, but are you saying that the water temp at your fire box is hanging at 150ish when you have the damper set to cycle on at 180 and off at 185?


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## mingom (Jan 23, 2012)

Yes basically.. except on at 175 off at 180.. it eventually makes it back to 180, but then falls to 150ish after hitting its 175 blower kick on


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## owbguy (Jan 23, 2012)

as long as you have a good bed of coals and wood you should get immediate response when damper/fan trips at 175. Sounds like blockage of air coming in or going out. If you leave the furnace door open several inches how is your air flow through the chimney? It should be cranking and smoking. If you get good air flow that way and the temp maintains good, then close the door and see what happens to airflow and water temp.

Your heat use should not be drawing the water temperature down from 175 to 150 unless your boiler is severely undersized for the application. The most probable other issues are air flow and what you are burning. If you have good coals and good wood, and the boiler isn't undersized, then it sounds like you have a air flow issue in the boiler.


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## mingom (Jan 23, 2012)

I think this maybe the cause of my issue, if I leave the door open it obviously gets cranking, sometimes even boiling over a bit. However it seems like if I shut the door it can drop off quick. The blower is blowing pretty constant, so I'm not sure its the blower, but it could be having and issue exhausting? For example when I got home the temp was at 181 degrees and 1.5 hours later the temp is down tp 170, with little heat draw from the house. The wood coaled up pretty decent, and its good oak, a year to year and a half season with a few pieces of bone dry pine.


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## Oxford (Jan 23, 2012)

That would have been some useful information to know before we spent a week on plumbing. If your burner is undersized because it can't get enough air, you can change all the piping you want and you'll still be cold.


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## mingom (Jan 23, 2012)

Sorry, this has happened since the plumbing fixes, the burner is sized to heat 5500 sq ft and I'm heating maybe 2500-3000 with the majority of it at 50 degrees, I have two of the loops at 67 degrees. I believe I might have another issue, I'm sorry if you feel like you wasted your time, I don't feel like I have wasted mine. There was an obvious issue with my Hx, it was plugged solid.


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## mingom (Jan 24, 2012)

I know that something is just not working correctly, after reading through others posts about how well their OWB works and heats their house, I believe my newest issue is something to do with correct airflow through the boiler. I believe I should be getting a.) more burn time out of my wood, b.) more ashes than bigger coal-y pieces, c.) better temps from the ETC ( ie set at 180 with 175 kick on... maybe dropping to 170, not down to 150-145). I'm sorry if anyone thinks I've blown off their advice, I've been trying to do all I can to get this working correctly, I just don't know everything 100% about the system. I know it will heat as I want it to. Again, I appreciate all the help everyone has given.


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## Oxford (Jan 24, 2012)

Have you looked inside your boiler? If your HX was plugged solid, take a look at the HX surface of your boiler. As little as .030" of lime scale can have a significant insulating effect, resulting in poor heat transfer in the boiler and requiring overfiring to keep the water hot (i.e. leaving the boiler door open.)


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## Oxford (Jan 24, 2012)

Have you looked inside your boiler? If your HX was plugged solid, take a look at the HX surface of your boiler. As little as .030" of lime scale can have a significant insulating effect, resulting in poor heat transfer in the boiler and requiring overfiring to keep the water hot (i.e. leaving the boiler door open.)


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## mingom (Jan 25, 2012)

I haven't, I'm going to try and dig into that a bit tonight... is there any easy way of seeing into the boiler body itself to see the lime scale?

Also, might be a stupid question, but would sweeping the chimney and doing as much internal cleaning help at all? I'm just not seeing the burn times or quality others are either.


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## hanniedog (Jan 25, 2012)

Sweeping the chimney and cleaning the unit will only help not hurt your situation. I am betting on an obstuction messing up the draft.


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## owbguy (Jan 25, 2012)

I finally went back through all the prior posts to understand the details. Not sure I understand it all correctly. Below are a few thoughts based on what I think has been described. :msp_unsure:

First, I am commenting only on the air flow here. Correct me if I'm wrong. Damper opens at 175 boiler water temp, then boiler water temp proceeds to drop to the 150 range and take a long time to increase to the 180 closure set point. If you leave the boiler door open a crack then it heats fine, fire cranks up and boiler water temp doesn't fall into the 150's? You can crack boiler door, get fire cranking, maintain good boiler water temp, then close the boiler door and have the boiler water temp fall significantly despite the damper open/fan running? If these scenarios are correct, then you have an *air intake issue*. The damper open and fan running should not allow the boiler water temp to drop off like that if you have good coals and good wood in the fire box. When the damper is open and fan is running you should have high output from your chimney. Check it. Open the boiler door a crack and check to see if there is a difference in chimney output. This will isolate airflow to intake only and let you know if that is an issue. If opening the door does not make much difference in chimney output, then you need to determine if the chimney out put is adequate/proper. How much smoke is coming out the door versus exiting via the chimney? Its possible you have something in the chimney. Burn a creosote log and clean it out. Use a chimney cleaning brush and make sure there isn't blockage.

Second, I am commenting only on the home system heat draw. If I understand your diagram and descriptions, your owb-side water flow has been checked and is now fine. The owb-side water is running in a continuous loop and passes its heat to the in-home system loop through heat exchanger. Your in-home loop is not running continuously and while its idle the owb water temps are fine. Its only when the in-home is activated and running that the owb water temps drop significantly. Is this all correct? If so, the in-home system water temp running through the heat exchanger is cooling the owb water temp, so the in-home system is dominating the owb system. If true, it seems you have a design flaw in the system.


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## frogg (Jan 25, 2012)

what is a wye strainer & what does it do. ?


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## mingom (Jan 25, 2012)

I haven't really tried seeing if leaving the door open brings the temp up fast, usually its way down by the time I see it and I'd have to leave the door open for a long time, which cause the boiler to boil out some water and some good sized flames and smoke to pour out the door. I believe the fan/damper is operating fairly well, if I shut the door almost all the way, I can watch the fan stoke the fire really well. Is burning a crosote log okay for the OWB's? I thought I had heard they're not great on the system. I'm going to look into getting a brush system so I can sweep it this weekend, do I have to completely shut down the fire to do this, or can it be swept while operating?


Regarding the water side of the system. I don't have a definitive answer regarding whether or not the OWB temp stablizes when the home isn't drawing a load. Temps have been on the warmer side (40 ish degrees) the past few days but the boiler still falls to 150-155 degree levels, I can't believe my house is calling for the same load as it was when temps were -7 last week. I'm not trying to say that there isn't an issue with the home side, but I just don't know what would have changed that drastically. The guy I had perform the service on my system a few weeks ago said my system is very similar to ones he's installed, and a very common setup. I have a hard time believing that the past two owners were completely fooled by the system and lied outright to me about how it performed. 




owbguy said:


> I finally went back through all the prior posts to understand the details. Not sure I understand it all correctly. Below are a few thoughts based on what I think has been described. :msp_unsure:
> 
> First, I am commenting only on the air flow here. Correct me if I'm wrong. Damper opens at 175 boiler water temp, then boiler water temp proceeds to drop to the 150 range and take a long time to increase to the 180 closure set point. If you leave the boiler door open a crack then it heats fine, fire cranks up and boiler water temp doesn't fall into the 150's? You can crack boiler door, get fire cranking, maintain good boiler water temp, then close the boiler door and have the boiler water temp fall significantly despite the damper open/fan running? If these scenarios are correct, then you have an *air intake issue*. The damper open and fan running should not allow the boiler water temp to drop off like that if you have good coals and good wood in the fire box. When the damper is open and fan is running you should have high output from your chimney. Check it. Open the boiler door a crack and check to see if there is a difference in chimney output. This will isolate airflow to intake only and let you know if that is an issue. If opening the door does not make much difference in chimney output, then you need to determine if the chimney out put is adequate/proper. How much smoke is coming out the door versus exiting via the chimney? Its possible you have something in the chimney. Burn a creosote log and clean it out. Use a chimney cleaning brush and make sure there isn't blockage.
> 
> Second, I am commenting only on the home system heat draw. If I understand your diagram and descriptions, your owb-side water flow has been checked and is now fine. The owb-side water is running in a continuous loop and passes its heat to the in-home system loop through heat exchanger. Your in-home loop is not running continuously and while its idle the owb water temps are fine. Its only when the in-home is activated and running that the owb water temps drop significantly. Is this all correct? If so, the in-home system water temp running through the heat exchanger is cooling the owb water temp, so the in-home system is dominating the owb system. If true, it seems you have a design flaw in the system.


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## owbguy (Jan 25, 2012)

It sounds like you are stumped, so why don't you get the guy who originally set up the owb to come back to look at it? If you cannot get the person who set it up, then call in a reputable owb installer and have it analyzed. We can keep guessing forever without seeing the unit run while you can keep spending money on fuel; or you can simply hire a professional to get the job done today and stop spending on fuel. You spent some money on the new heat exchanger, so I assume you can afford to pay a pro to diagnose and fix your issue. Plus the money you spend on the technician will be offset by the fuel you will not be buying.


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## mingom (Jan 25, 2012)

Not trying to sound like an ass, but just because I spent the money I thought necessary to fix an issue free guidance from a own installer means I have the money to hire someone whenever I feel like it? I wish I did, and I'm willing to spend as much as I can afford.

I don't know who originally installed the system, I wish I did. I had a own technician look over the system, his analysis was the hx issue, however it seems there is more to it than that. I am going to call him today to ask for his opinion on the matter, but I figured the members of this site might be willing to offer their input, as I'm sure others have has similar issues, and free advice is always welcomed. I try and heed everyone's advice that I can, I have a fairly decent technical background but this is my first home, first heating system, first owb, and I'm just trying to get it working and understand it so I can maintain and repair it.


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## J1m (Jan 25, 2012)

As I said a few days ago...RE is expecting your call. Good luck.


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## mingom (Jan 25, 2012)

Plan is to call him this afternoon.


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## owbguy (Jan 25, 2012)

mingom said:


> Not trying to sound like an ass, but



Well, my point is this. You are spending money on fuel you should not be using while we are all giving you our best advice based on your descriptions but without actually seeing the system work. We can keep guessing, you can keep trying and you can keep using fuel and spending money on it. Or, you can hire someone to inspect it and either tell you how to correct the problem or fix it.

I have offered you my input. Others have as well. We did it freely and with the intent to help. Yet, the issue remains. IMHO, the next step is to hire someone who does this stuff for a living.


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## J1m (Jan 25, 2012)

mingom said:


> Plan is to call him this afternoon.



What'd you find out?


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## mingom (Jan 25, 2012)

Called my boiler guy, he couldn't think of too much really. He said i should take a FLA reading of the blower to see if its working correctly, make sure there is no blockages in the pumps. I'm not really sure what else to think/do. I might see if there are any solid fuel techs around who might be able to diagnosis an issue. I'm just stumped, the OWB is designed to heat 5000 sq ft and im no where near that.

I was reading through another thread and I'm thinking/ hoping my issue now is with draft. I check to make sure the intake was blowing correctly, but i think im not drafting up my stovepipe correctly. I also realized my rod that is supposed to divert smoke never really diverts smoke well and now is jammed closed from creosote. Is there any real way of cleaning the stack/flue other than something like a creosote log and sweeping? Where is a good place to look for a set of brushes and rods? I will need to sweep top down with the furnace running.


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## mingom (Jan 26, 2012)

Sorry this may sound stupid, but I'm thinking this could be a major part of the issue. I decided to try and clean out my boiler as much as I could, I shoveled out two garbage cans full of ash and coals. In doing so, I found that the edges/outer part of the boiler chamber were coated completely with about 1 to 1-1/2 inch of creosote/nasty buildup. I'm assuming this is a major restriction on heat transfer. My plan is to try and burn down my fire as much as I can, shovel out all the ashes and coals, scrape what is possible while its still warm. Then I'll build a good fire back up and keep the ash level down way before the door (as of today it was 2-3 inches above the sill height)

Any insight?


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## owbguy (Jan 26, 2012)

you should be removing ash regularly, like once a week or every two weeks.
you should be scraping the inside of the firebox regularly, like at least once a month.

too much ash or creosote buildup will not cause the heat loss issue you described.


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## mingom (Jan 27, 2012)

I didn't get it cleaned out 100 % yesterday, still too much ash and coals etc in the box, nowhere to put it to cool. My temps stayed up in the 175-180 range for a while then plummeted down to 141 this morning when I got up. I'm still thinking there is some type of restriction/ issue with getting a good burn in the box, I still have large chunks in the stove, and as soon as I open the door it flares up and temps rise a bit. I can feel air being moved by the draft fan, but maybe its not working at 100% anymore, or can't draft right. Any issues with sweeping while burning other than a whole lot of smoke in the face? Plan is to pull everything out of the stove this weekend and scrape as much as possible, and if I can find some brushes, to sweep the stack ( might be a little tricky, sloped steel roof with ice on it)

I included some pictures of what the inside of the stove looks like, please feel free to comment/criticize any bad practices you may see.

Just as a frame of reference, the level of coals that you see is approx 2-3 inches about the door sill, 4-8 above the bottom of the firebox

View attachment 219987
View attachment 219988


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## owbguy (Jan 27, 2012)

Unless you have something specific in mind, there is no need to completely empty ashes and coals from the firebox.

You should have a long handled scraper for cleaning the interior of the firebox. I bought mine from my dealer when i got the boiler 8 years ago. Its all steel and the handle is about 7' long. With this tool you can scrape the walls/ceiling while the fire is burning.

Regarding the chimney, if using a chimney cleaning brush, I would let the fire burn down to coals only before going at it. However, I'd take a different approach (described below) unless you believe the chimney is plugged. If you think the chimney is plugged, then use a chimney tool or long rod to check for blockage.

To clean your boiler I would burn 1-2 creosote logs in a hot, stoked fire. Then tap on the chimney to shake anything remaining loose. Next, scrape the walls and ceiling with appropriate scraper tool. Next, shovel out ash/creosote, keeping coals. Finally, stoke the fire. Once you have cleaned the creosote and ashes you should be fine. 

Now, back to the air flow issue. From your comments, it seems the boiler water temperature issue is burn-related and not caused by draw from the house system. It sounds like your fire smolders when the boiler door is closed and damper is open/fan is running, but when you open the boiler door the fire takes off burning strong.

I say this because there are only 2 ways your boiler water temp will drop to the 150's range you describe. First, cold water in the home loop dominating the hot water in the boiler loop, causing the boiler loop temp to drop ( as opposed to hot water in boiler loop dominating and causing home loop water temp to rise). Second, fire not burning strong enough to maintain 175-180 degree boiler water temp. Your descriptions/comments have suggested the latter as the cause.

So, you should check the chimney to be sure its not plugged. You should be able to contact a dealer to find out what tool to use to check/service the chimney. You also need to check your damper/fan airflow. Your comments suggest air intake is the root cause of the issue. The damper may not open completely or may be partially clogged, or the fan may be failing or compromised. I'm not familiar with your boiler design, but assume you will need to disassemble housing on the boiler door to check the damper/fan. *Be safe!* Kill the power before you do it. Disassemble the housing, check and clean the openings, parts and fan. The cause may be obvious. I would leave the housing off and turn on the power (be careful) so that i could observe the damper/fan cycle on and function. Diagnose/rule out based on your observations.

Finally, if you can afford it, and you cannot determine the cause of the issue yourself, have a dealer come and inspect your boiler. The dealer will probably immediately know what is wrong.


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## mingom (Jan 27, 2012)

Thanks for the quick reply. I do have a scraper, I try and use it as much as possible. I wish the boiler hadn't been running when I bought the house so I could have properly cleaned it, I'm not sure how well it was maintained before me. I'm not sure if the chimney is fully plugged, I can see smoke coming out of it, I'm just not sure if its restricted or not, and whether that would effect the burn. My plan is to climb up this weekend and check it out. 

Regarding your comments on whether its burn related or a sizing issue, in my mind it is a burning issue, because as far as I can tell the boiler is sized for heating much more than I want, and many others heat a lot more square footage than I do with the same unit. 
If I crack the door while the blower is running it stokes right up and burns awesome. I took apart the housing around the blower the other day and watched it cycle a bit, the blower seems to be spinning fine and the rubber flapper/solenoid open and close no problem. I've got a clamp on meter to throw on the blower lines today to see if I'm drawing a strange amperage, and Grainger has a new blower in town if I need to replace it. 

If I could find a dealer nearby I would absolutely have them come checkout the system. Unfortunately, I haven't found any Woodmaster dealers within 50-100 miles. I've contacted Woodmaster to see if they know of any service techs or anyone nearby who has experience.

I appreciate your help, I'd really like to get this sorted out. 




owbguy said:


> Unless you have something specific in mind, there is no need to completely empty ashes and coals from the firebox.
> 
> You should have a long handled scraper for cleaning the interior of the firebox. I bought mine from my dealer when i got the boiler 8 years ago. Its all steel and the handle is about 7' long. With this tool you can scrape the walls/ceiling while the fire is burning.
> 
> ...


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## mingom (Jan 27, 2012)

think the stack could be partially blocked. This afternoon I ran the temp up to 181 with the door open, closed the door, then went to open it a minute or two later to toss a piece of scrap in and literally the gases/smoke blew up out the door probably 4-5 feet out the door easy, good thing I was low or it would have got me. Unfortunately, the smoke baffle is locked right up, I can only get it to move an inch or two so I think its gummed up good.


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## owbguy (Jan 27, 2012)

get a good hot fire going and burn a couple creosote logs. it will only help.

if you need to work inside the firebox you're going to have to shut it down and cool the water until its safe.


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## atlarge54 (Jan 27, 2012)

Now you've got me confused. What do you mean by door open? Does door open mean door open an inch and exhaust leaving the chimney? It seems if the chimney is open enough to get hot with the door cracked open it should be open enough for the blower to make a hot fire. Any chance there's some obstruction on the intake side like a mouse or hornets nest? 

Hope you get this sorted out soon.


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## owbguy (Jan 27, 2012)

mingom said:


> This afternoon I ran the temp up to 181 with the door open, closed the door, then went to open it a minute or two later to toss a piece of scrap in and literally the gases/smoke blew up out the door probably 4-5 feet out the door



was the damper open/fan running when the vapor explosion occurred? If no, then that is not uncommon. If yes, then it means you have an air issue and its probably on the intake side.

when the fire burns strong and hot with good wood, and then the damper closes, it is normal for gasses to accumulate in the firebox. Opening the door can cause the gasses to ignite resulting in a fireball blowing out the door opening. this should not occur if the damper is open, since there should be ample draw out the chimney. Plus, when you burn with the door open, if the chimney is plugged your smoke will boil out the door opening.


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## russhd1997 (Jan 27, 2012)

mingom said:


> think the stack could be partially blocked. This afternoon I ran the temp up to 181 with the door open, closed the door, then went to open it a minute or two later to toss a piece of scrap in and literally the gases/smoke blew up out the door probably 4-5 feet out the door easy, good thing I was low or it would have got me. Unfortunately, the smoke baffle is locked right up, I can only get it to move an inch or two so I think its gummed up good.



This is normal if your draft was closed and the blower was off at the time. My grandson named my OWB the Dragon because this happens on mine when the conditions are right.


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## mingom (Jan 29, 2012)

Burned a creosote log yesterday, looking for a brush setup to run through the chimney. I've let the firebox run down to very minimal amount of ashes/coals. I haven't had a chance to pull the blower apart and clean it. I might pick up an extra blower Monday from Grainger just to have, but I'm still stumped on whats causing my fire not to burn correctly. I did manage to get the smoke bypass rod free, and pulled out 4-5 full shovelfuls of crap that fell out with it. Who knew how long that rod was? Wish I had been there for the start up this season to have made sure it was clean.


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## atlarge54 (Jan 29, 2012)

Curious, is this your first experience operating a wood burning appliance? Wish I was more familiar with Woodmaster design, might be easier to help out.


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## mingom (Jan 29, 2012)

Yes, other than a few vermont castings stoves indoors.


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## Oxford (Jan 29, 2012)

Well,

I swore to myself that I was done with this thread, but I can't help it.

The first question that you need to answer is: what is happening? The short answer here, as I read it, is that the supply temperature from your OWB is not constant, and occasionally falls below your desired setpoint.

By your statements, we can assume that the plumbing is in good order, all pumps and heat exchangers working properly, which leaves the boiler and its associated controls as the likely culprit. A boiler, or any other fire, works on a triangle: Fuel, air, and ignition. We'll assume that your fuel is correct, properly dried and energy-dense enough to provide adequate BTUs on combustion. We'll also assume ignition is good, because you have a fire burning. That leaves air.

If this is similar to others I have seen, this has a small centrifugal blower that is cycled on a call for heat from the controller. So, the first question, does it cycle? Change the setpoint and see if the blower kicks on. If it does, measure the amperage. Is it correct? If it is, let the fan run. Does the amperage change over time, indicating a bad winding that is heating up and then opening, causing intermittent fan failure during high demand? If it doesn't, does the fire get hotter when the fan runs? It should, it's being stoked. If it doesn't, and the amperage isn't high (>85% of FLA) is there a small damper on the side of your fan that you can open and get more air to the fan? If you move that inlet damper, does the fan amperage increase? If it doesn't, you may have a restriction in the discharge of your fan.

You have a choice to make. Either A)Start listening to the advice you've been given, combining it with observations you make yourself,B) Call in a professional, or C) Shut off the OWB, drain it, and admit you've been defeated by a kettle with a pump. I have to say, for a guy so desperate to get his boiler running, you sure don't listen to the advice you solicit.


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## mingom (Jan 29, 2012)

Can yoy explain to me how I haven't been listening to peoples advice? I've done everything that people have suggested, including calling both the local own guy and woodmaster itself a call, neither of which had any real ideas. I haven't had time to pull the blower motor and clean it or been able to borrow the clamp on meter from work. Id really like to know why you seem to think you're so much smarter than me, and say that I don't listen. I've done everything I've been able to, and sought this forum out as a way to seek help, not to be berated.


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## hanniedog (Jan 29, 2012)

Mingom from what I have seen here you have done nothing but listen to everyones advice. Get the draft blower checked, then the chimney for blockage. The amount of creoste you described makes me think one or the other or both is blocked to some degree. Good luck.


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## mingom (Jan 29, 2012)

Went out and borrowed a clamp on meter from a buddy, couldn't get any reading at all on the blower with it running. I pulled all the wires out of their covered box, found 2 yellows and a black wired together and three blacks wired together some from the incoming 120 v line and some up to the solenoid. Every wire I clamped on didn't register a thing. I tried clamping on, and around each. Not sure what is up with that.


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## Dan_IN_MN (Jan 29, 2012)

*Just read your WHOLE thread!*

Hello

I just read your whole thread......have a few questions/comments.



Oxford said:


> *Have you looked inside your boiler? If your HX was plugged solid, take a look at the HX surface of your boiler.* As little as .030" of lime scale can have a significant insulating effect, resulting in poor heat transfer in the boiler and requiring overfiring to keep the water hot (i.e. leaving the boiler door open.)



I didn't see an answer to this question....?? All though...getting the fire to get hot when it's needed is the current issue.... 



mingom said:


> Sorry this may sound stupid, but I'm thinking this could be a major part of the issue. I decided to try and clean out my boiler as much as I could, *I shoveled out two garbage cans full of ash* and coals. In doing so, I found that the edges/outer part of the boiler chamber were coated completely with about 1 to 1-1/2 inch of creosote/nasty buildup. I'm assuming this is a major restriction on heat transfer. My plan is to try and burn down my fire as much as I can, shovel out all the ashes and coals, scrape what is possible while its still warm. Then I'll build a good fire back up and keep the ash level down way before the door (as of today it was 2-3 inches above the sill height)
> 
> Any insight?



IMO...that's a lot of ash!

I don't have an outdoor burner....but I do have an add on wood furnace in my basement.....I've found.....that even if I don't feel like going through the mess of taking out the ashes....I pay for it because I don't get the heat from my furnace. FWIW.....



mingom said:


> think the stack could be partially blocked. This afternoon I ran the temp up to 181 with the door open, closed the door, then went to open it a minute or two later to toss a piece of scrap in and literally the gases/smoke blew up out the door probably 4-5 feet out the door easy, good thing I was low or it would have got me. Unfortunately, the smoke baffle is locked right up, I can only get it to move an inch or two so I think its gummed up good.



Could you try this again....but after the door has been closed for a while....(allowing the gases to build up) turn on your draft blower.....allowing enough time....carefully open the door..... IMHO....you shouldn't have the gas build up......I could be wrong..... 





mingom said:


> Burned a creosote log yesterday, looking for a brush setup to run through the chimney. I've let the firebox run down to very minimal amount of ashes/coals. *I haven't had a chance to pull the blower apart and clean it.* I might pick up an extra blower Monday from Grainger just to have, but I'm still stumped on whats causing my fire not to burn correctly. I did manage to get the smoke bypass rod free, and *pulled out 4-5 full shovelfuls of crap that fell out with it*. Who knew how long that rod was? Wish I had been there for the start up this season to have made sure it was clean.



You need to check the path the intake air has to take from the blower to the combustion chamber? I'm sensing a blockage someplace.... Or a fan that's not doing it's job. Could the 'fan blade'/impeller be loose on the motor shaft which wouldn't allow full torque to be applied? 

It does sound like everything is/was plugged up! I wonder how much more crap is hiding in between your smoke damper and smoke outlet to the chimney? Are there any clean outs on this unit?

I'm betting next year this thing is going to be 'spotless' before you have to fire it up!

I didn't see your answer to the question if you have a water softener.....

I live in MN.....If I wasn't burning wood, I'd be going through 3-6 fills of my 500 gallon propane tank per heating season (depending on the weather).... I can keep my LP furnace off and the house is at 70 degrees! I own my tank.....the only reason I have some fuel in it is to heat domestic water and as a heat backup.

There is definitely a 'lag' time in the reheating process!

If you were next door...I'd be over .........you're just a few more 'doors' down! LoL!


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## Dan_IN_MN (Jan 29, 2012)

mingom said:


> Went out and borrowed a clamp on meter from a buddy, couldn't get any reading at all on the blower with it running. I pulled all the wires out of their covered box, found 2 yellows and a black wired together and three blacks wired together some from the incoming 120 v line and some up to the solenoid. Every wire I clamped on didn't register a thing. I tried clamping on, and around each. Not sure what is up with that.



Are you using the meter correctly? I've never used one..(I want one....just haven't bought one yet).....I've seen wires looped a few times through the clamp when taking a reading....???? I believe this is a question for your buddy.


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## owbguy (Jan 29, 2012)

mingom said:


> I did manage to get the smoke bypass rod free, and pulled out 4-5 full shovelfuls of crap that fell out with it. Who knew how long that rod was? Wish I had been there for the start up this season to have made sure it was clean.



I'm not sure what the smoke bypass rod is. However, if your smoke has to pass by it to exit, and you pulled 4-5 shovels of crap out of its area, then it sounds like you have found a factor in your air issue. Be sure to finish cleaning out the chimney/exhaust area.

That said, I still think its an intake issue based on your previous explanations. If the fire burns fine with the door cracked, but doesn't burn fine with the door closed/damper open/vent running, then it certainly signifies a air intake issue.

I cannot comment on the electrical readings or lack thereof. Sorry. I'd make sure the damper/air intake is clean and functioning properly. I'd test, inspect, repair and/or replace the fan if I had an doubts about it.

Then I'd fire it up, watch and wait...

Good luck. I hope this cures it.


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## bruduf (Jan 29, 2012)

I have a woodmaster 5500 and have no complaints, it heats my 3500 sq ft house with no problem, I do need to have a big fire if I am heating all 3 zones at once, and to fill up the old claw foot tub with hot hot water I usally lower the thermostats so they are not calling for heat. When my blower/draft kick on the smoke exits the chimney in a nice round shaft of smoke untill about 3 ft from the chimney then the smoke kind of dissapates depending on the wind. That shows that the blowers are working. The rest of the time smoke just kind of lingers out the stack. You should see a big diff in the smoke out the stack when the blower is running.


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## mingom (Jan 30, 2012)

I appreciate the comments guys. Think I had a bad meter, tested at work this morning on some high load stuff, couldn't get a reading, so I'll steal our Fluke for the night. I also borrowed some brushes for a chimney last night, and hopefully will get up to sweeping today or tomorrow. I'm thinking about picking up a new blower just to have as a spare, I can always bring it back to grainger.


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## hanniedog (Jan 30, 2012)

Can your chimney be removed from the furnace. That way you can reach inside and feel around to see whats in there.


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## owbguy (Jan 30, 2012)

Is your owb running or did you shut it down for now?


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## mingom (Jan 30, 2012)

Still running... its giving some heat to the house at least, just not recovering quick


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## mingom (Jan 31, 2012)

Still haven't gotten up to sweep the chimney I need to borrow a taller ladder to get up on the roof to get to the stack. But the blower seems to work fine, if I crack the door to give it some oxygen and a place for the smoke to pour out. It seems like if I shut the door and open it the smoke had smother the fire. Thanks again for all the help, hope to sweep tomorrow if I can get a ladder and a way to stay up on the roof haha.


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## owbguy (Jan 31, 2012)

when the door is cracked open are you getting good draft flow, or are you getting too much smoke out the door?


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## mingom (Jan 31, 2012)

With the door open most smoke comes out the door, minimal up the stack. Shut the door, see more up the stack, fire seems to smother. I open the door and can get the fire ripping, up to 187 right now, Shut the door temp starts to drop, major smoke buildup when I open the door next, no matter if the blower is going or not, and/or the smoke damper bar is in or out.


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## mimilkman1 (Jan 31, 2012)

That's definitely a draft problem, something has to be blocking the chimney for you to be getting smoke back out the door when the draft door and fan are running. I don't know what happens when that handle is pulled out, but I assume something has to have become disconnected and partially blocked the chimney and most likely collected creosote around it, with smoldering fires I assume the creosote may be pretty thick by now. Get that cleaned up and you'll have a stove you never knew you had. Good luck with your endeavors tomorrow and be safe.

Kyle


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## owbguy (Jan 31, 2012)

yep, that's a chimney/exhaust blockage. in your earlier posts, it sounded like an intake issue. now you are describing an exhaust issue. you can have smoke come out the open door even if there is no chimney blockage. but if the smoke prefers to exit through the door rather than the chimney it means there is resistance to airflow.


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## atlarge54 (Jan 31, 2012)

WOW eight pages to get to this point-------communication skills lacking a bit.

Won't be long you'll be an official woodburner.

You plan on cutting or buying wood? Be careful with a chainsaw if you get one.


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## 711ac (Jan 31, 2012)

mingom said:


> Still haven't gotten up to sweep the chimney I need to borrow a taller ladder to get up on the roof to get to the stack. But the blower seems to work fine, if I crack the door to give it some oxygen and a place for the smoke to pour out. It seems like if I shut the door and open it the smoke had smother the fire. Thanks again for all the help, hope to sweep tomorrow if I can get a ladder and a way to stay up on the roof haha.



Where are you in Southern ME? I got lots of ladders!


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## mingom (Feb 4, 2012)

So i got a chance to run a rod down the stack, there is some serious buildup in there, I broke up as much of it as I could, I've been trying to get a good hot hot fire going today to burn it up. The woodmaster seems to have a square flange mated to a round pipe, seems kinda foolish. I'm replacing the blower also since its full of junk, I got one for cheap through grainger. Anyone have an idea of how they are wired up? Pulling it apart it seems to have 2 yellow wires and 4 black wires (for the blower and the flap solenoid) My new one has a white and a black ( both labeled line)


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## J1m (Feb 12, 2012)

Curious - did you ever get your heating issues sorted?


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## mingom (Feb 12, 2012)

I did thanks, sorry I haven't had time to post lately. Culprit was a completely blocked off stack and a blower that was on its way out. Thanks for everyones help! I'll be sure to help when I can!


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## owbguy (Feb 12, 2012)

I'm glad to hear that you got it fixed. Hopefully that means its running great now.


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## hanniedog (Feb 12, 2012)

Glad you got it running correctly, keep working at getting the excess creosote cleaned up.


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