# Chainsaws In Wilderness



## slowp (Mar 13, 2013)

Well, if they are planting trees why not? The FS should declare one week for chainsaws in the wilderness and those who don't want to hear them could stay out. I bet a lot of trail clearing could get done. When I've been on one end of a crosscut, I find myself thinking that I'd be done with the tree if I had The Barbie Saw. 

Trails Of Trouble On Wild Lands | Northwest Public Radio

Of course, then there is the packing in of the gear and fuel problem. A horse would be needed or maybe a goat?


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## madhatte (Mar 13, 2013)

> Gehrke: “I think from an ecological standpoint, they are the place we see nature functioning as it’s supposed to. Fires, floods - whatever you want to call it.”



To which I would argue: "wilderness" is, by definition, wild. A trail is a human luxury. If it's truly "wild", it's not a convenient place to relax and unwind. Get over it. Either let it be wild, or accept the logical fallacy that humans somehow deserve easy access there along with the corollary that access costs "wildness". Buck that mess out and be done with it.

Hippies. Ha-freakin'-rrumph.


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 13, 2013)

They can get waivers for serious blowdown. They did that on he Petes Creek Trail in the Colonel Bob Wilderness. My dad went to school with the retired cutter that did most of the clean up. He was with the Back Country Horsemen. There were so many large blowdowns it was an almost daunting task with crosscuts. The trail was largely impassable to hikers and absolutely impassable with horses.

I agree however that a week period would get allot of trails open. Granted they will require people to go through the safety classes and it will require some bigger saws to get it done. Therefore requiring experienced people beyond just a safety class in my humble opinion. I helped a family friend maintain a FS trail up the Humptulips below Colonel Bob for some community service hours for some school thing. We weren't in the wilderness area so we used weed wackers and some swede axes. My dad went along and the region forester was with us also. He brought his saw and when he hesitated to cut this one tree my dad offered to do it and did. Was a leaner alder. Just goes to show that even certified people have their limitations. The guy was hesitant at first. My point here is that people with authority and lack of experience are often doubtful about others and make decisions based upon this misguided thinking if you will. Probably not the best way to articulate my thought but best I can do for now.

Most of the crosscut trail clearing in the Cascades is done in conjunction with horsemen I believe; as packing in a crosscut for miles and miles would be a PITA. I know being able to use a chainsaw to clear them would make life easier. I've pulled a crosscut before and have the same feelings as hatte.

I like the idea of having a designated period for doing this that way the noise wouldn't be a constant thing in the woods and still keep with the spirit of wilderness area. Wilderness is wilderness but the fact is we have trails there and to keep them open it makes sense to use the easiest and most economical means to do so.

I also think that this has more merit than planting a measly 1000 trees in wilderness. Using saws is definitely in more truer spirit since they will be used to clear already established trails not making new ones.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Good idear Patty!

Wes


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## 056 kid (Mar 13, 2013)

There are places here in NC which have a no internal combustion engine rule. For example, Joyce Kilmer forest, supposed home of the last remaining OG wood on the east. Instead of sawing hazard trees, they use explosives. No directional fall to potentially save near by trees. And there are a ton of trees up there which have been blown up. 

So we go in the woods like we are 6 sheets to the wind with a sack of dynamite and blow trees off the stump because it is better for mother earth. I don't care what they doo or how they do it. What bugs me is that they think that they are really doing right. Hell they could use crosscut and ax. Oh wait no one has a clue or the gumption to do it that way. 

#### the govt.... Inept asses.....


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## madhatte (Mar 13, 2013)

056 kid said:


> #### the govt.... Inept asses.....



I'll just leave this here...

[video=youtube_share;D319DsrxfUA=[MEDIA=youtube]D319DsrxfUA[/MEDIA]

I'll be out back, scraping 8% less bird#### off the buoys...


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## forestryworks (Mar 13, 2013)

First of all, what is wilderness? Oh, right, it's just an anthropogenic label; a concept that was made into reality only by the legality of 1960s political-feel good legislation.

Secondly, as fragmented as current landscapes are (be they deserts, forests, grasslands, etc.), it's only a matter of time before a fenced off "wilderness" area becomes overwhelmingly invaded by invasive plants and animals. Fragmented landscapes require much more work to preserve and keep "pristine", or in a state similar to whatever they were historically; and at some point, the on-going work defeats the purpose of a wilderness.

And lastly, everyone should read this book:


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## Philbert (Mar 13, 2013)

I tried to get some of the USFS guys here to consider my battery powered chainsaw for wilderness trail work. Went over like a flooded STIHL (a non-starter).

They say that they like using explosives to mitigate hazard trees because it leaves a rough finish - more natural that a saw kerf. I think that they just like playing with explosives . . . 

Philbert


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## slowp (Mar 14, 2013)

Wilderness areas have weeds pulled, overused areas revegetated, bridges built, and some even have old cabins, mines, and the Pasayton has an old airstrip. Some of the newer established areas are so close to highways that you can hear the traffic--which was why they weren't declared wilderness in the first round.

More areas are proposed. 

There is a difference in the way the two agencies manage their wilderness. The Park Service, those people who wear the Dudley Do Right hats, allow chainsaws to be used to clear trails. The Forest Service, the people without those hats, do not. The local office did not even allow a volunteer crew to carry their chainsaws through a small part of the Goat Rocks in order to get to a non-wilderness trail. :msp_ohmy:

Meanwhile, we have people who can't read maps or compasses going into country that they wouldn't be able to a few years ago, with GPS units, cell phones, SPOT(emergency transmitter), ultra high tech metal hiking poles, not to mention the various synthetics that make their packs light enough to get in a ways.

A week of chainsaw noise? Heck, they won't notice it because they'll have their music plugged into their ears. Or their phones. I was amazed at the number of folks hiking plugged into music while we were working on a heavily used trail in the wilderness.

The ultimate crew would be some timber fallers. In fact, I have wondered whether it would be cheaper to pay them to do work for a week, because it would/should be faster than any crew of "certified" buckers or volunteers. They'd have a support crew--a packer and some bodies to throw the chunks off the trail. 

But that won't happen.


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## Philbert (Mar 14, 2013)

slowp said:


> There is a difference in the way the two agencies manage their wilderness. The Park Service, those people who wear the Dudley Do Right hats, allow chainsaws to be used to clear trails. The Forest Service, the people without those hats, do not.



Sooooo . . . you're suggesting it is a case of '_hat envy_'?

Some old grudge against a Mountie, or maybe Smokey pooped in their woods . . . . .?

Maybe insert some George Carlin routine here about the differences between a '_park_' and a '_forest_'?

Just curious.

Philbert


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## slowp (Mar 14, 2013)

Philbert said:


> Sooooo . . . you're suggesting it is a case of '_hat envy_'?
> 
> Some old grudge against a Mountie, or maybe Smokey pooped in their woods . . . . .?
> 
> ...



Nope. The two agencies get mixed up, with most mixed up people thinking that National Forest IS a National Park. And many want to make it that way. I try to keep it simple when explaining the difference and the hat thing is an easy way--although the Forest Service LEOs have Smokey Bear Hats. Maybe I should have used Smokey Bear Hats, but the coffee hadn't kicked in yet. 

Just read where they were able to use chainsaws on selected trails on the Inyo in official wilderness. I think that the NEPA process has to be gone through? Who knows? Apparently a massive amount of folks were upset over a massive amount of windthrow that occurred so people played well together to get the trails cleared.


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## Woody912 (Mar 14, 2013)

How 'bout we put some welfare recipients on the end of the crosscuts and let them earn their supper? That explosive thing is BS


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## slowp (Mar 14, 2013)

Woody912 said:


> How 'bout we put some welfare recipients on the end of the crosscuts and let them earn their supper? That explosive thing is BS



Only if they wanted to. Have you every worked with people who don't want to work? It is hard on everybody--and the people who don't want to work work harder at trying not to work.. It is unfair and frustrating for the people in charge and the other folks who are wanting to do a good and efficient job. 

Besides, safety is a concern no matter what powers the saws. I want to be on the end of the saw with somebody who has their mind on what they are doing, not on how to get out of what they are doing.


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## Woody912 (Mar 14, 2013)

slowp said:


> Only if they wanted to. Have you every worked with people who don't want to work? It is hard on everybody--and the people who don't want to work work harder at trying not to work.. It is unfair and frustrating for the people in charge and the other folks who are wanting to do a good and efficient job.
> 
> Besides, safety is a concern no matter what powers the saws. I want to be on the end of the saw with somebody who has their mind on what they are doing, not on how to get out of what they are doing.



How 'bout if we make eating contingent on wanting to work??????????????/ Yes, I know what you are saying. I used to have a guy I sent on break to get us caught up because I could do both jobs faster than I would with his help


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 14, 2013)

slowp said:


> Nope. The two agencies get mixed up, with most mixed up people thinking that National Forest IS a National Park. And many want to make it that way. I try to keep it simple when explaining the difference and the hat thing is an easy way--although the Forest Service LEOs have Smokey Bear Hats. Maybe I should have used Smokey Bear Hats, but the coffee hadn't kicked in yet.
> 
> Just read where they were able to use chainsaws on selected trails on the Inyo in official wilderness. I think that the NEPA process has to be gone through? Who knows? Apparently a massive amount of folks were upset over a massive amount of windthrow that occurred so people played well together to get the trails cleared.



Yupp NEPA has to be followed. Although there are some cases that they can get away without a NEPA but I don't know the ins and outs of that.

Yea in some ways the NPS has it better than the FS. It's plain and simple that our National Forests are becoming defacto wilderness areas and wilderness areas is almost another word for park except you can hunt in them and a few other things. Shoot you can hunt in the park if they are using it as a management tool!


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## AT sawyer (Mar 14, 2013)

As one who's cleared hundreds of blowdowns from trails with a crosscut saw, I can only say that people who want to experience the tranquility of the backcountry should volunteer some time to help with the sawing. Most trail crews I know of are composed of a few dedicated individuals with the skills and tools to get the job done and would welcome some volunteers to help with the work. Properly filed, a crosscut saw is no misery whip.


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## Gologit (Mar 14, 2013)

AT sawyer said:


> As one who's cleared hundreds of blowdowns from trails with a crosscut saw, I can only say that people who want to experience the tranquility of the backcountry should volunteer some time to help with the sawing. Most trail crews I know of are composed of a few dedicated individuals with the skills and tools to get the job done and would welcome some volunteers to help with the work. Properly filed, a crosscut saw is no misery whip.



Screw tranquility...that's for _after_ work. When there's serious wood to be cut I want a power saw. God invented those things for a reason.


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 15, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Screw tranquility...that's for _after_ work. When there's serious wood to be cut I want a power saw. God invented those things for a reason.



Whats that old argument ? If a tree falls in the forest cut by a powersaw andthe enviromentolist isn there to here it,does it really make a sound ?


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## slowp (Mar 15, 2013)

I don't find much tranquility WORKING in the wilderness with a crew. If I crave tranquility, I can get up at 0 dark thirty and hang out on my porch, or head out to the woods where there aren't any trophy peaks, or trails, or lakes that the hordes head to for bragging rights.

We're kind of lucky that we are not as close to Pugetropolis as others are. 

This is not in the wilderness.
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## madhatte (Mar 15, 2013)

Looks like a Brown Cubical Rot failure. Just a rind of sapwood still intact, buckled in a wind like a drinking straw.


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## floyd (Mar 15, 2013)

Wilderness is part of the multiple use concept sacrifice area. Keeps the like minds closer together, easier to manage, you know.

Others enjoy seeing cattle or domsetic sheep grazing on public lands. Some like digging it up. Others cut it down & build stuff with it.

It's always tough to manage those transition areas.


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## slowp (Mar 15, 2013)

madhatte said:


> Looks like a Brown Cubical Rot failure. Just a rind of sapwood still intact, buckled in a wind like a drinking straw.



That trail goes through some of the lower elevation old growth. A few years ago, I hiked in with a few people and we cut it open--with chainsaws but we didn't have big enough saws or skill needed to get some of the big giants out. Our local insurance agent, who is on call and contracts out came in and cleared the 6 and 8 footers out. 

I think the tree in the photo is the one that injured The Used Dog.


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## madhatte (Mar 15, 2013)

floyd said:


> It's always tough to manage those transition areas.



That's actually a really good point, and one I hadn't considered before. I tend to see things through Forestry-colored glasses, so those other uses are secondary to me if I notice them at all.


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## forestryworks (Mar 15, 2013)

madhatte said:


> That's actually a really good point, and one I hadn't considered before. I tend to see things through Forestry-colored glasses, so those other uses are secondary to me if I notice them at all.



You need a week in the Zumwalt for floral balancing of the ol' grey matter


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## madhatte (Mar 15, 2013)

forestryworks said:


> You need a week in the Zumwalt for floral balancing of the ol' grey matter



I'll take it!


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## slowp (Mar 15, 2013)

Hmmm. All this discussion about wilderness and trails makes me think I might venture out on one today.
The Banjo Player is in walking wounded mode but I'll call and see if he wants to go. If not, The Used Dog and I can head out. The Banjo Player will not be able to scrabble over any downed woody material. 

We can report on whether the skunk cabbage has buds yet, and if the ticks are horrid elsewhere.


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## AT sawyer (Mar 15, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Screw tranquility...that's for _after_ work. When there's serious wood to be cut I want a power saw. God invented those things for a reason.



My preference is for crosscuts, even when I'm on a front country trail where chainsaws are allowed. Something about the way they sing and being able to hear every fiber snap as you work your way through the log.


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 15, 2013)

AT sawyer said:


> My preference is for crosscuts, even when I'm on a front country trail where chainsaws are allowed. Something about the way they sing and being able to hear every fiber snap as you work your way through the log.



Bring your big crosscut, there's tons of big blow downs out here you can whittle up!


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## AT sawyer (Mar 16, 2013)

Love to, just for a change of scenery. A bit far to drive from Virginia though. Homeland Security's only just now allowing 1" knives on planes. Probably wouldn't let me board with a 7-foot saw.


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## Hyker (Dec 22, 2018)

As an avid hiker in areas designated as Wilderness by the Wilderness Act, I also advocate for a "National Chainsaw Week" in Wilderness Areas. Sections 4d(2) clearly allows the use of powered equipment stating: "(2) Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity....if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the wilderness environment". The USFS can, and has, made exceptions for chain saw use in Wilderness and it is perhaps time more consideration be given this issue due to the backlog of trail maintenance as noted in the National Forest System Trail Stewardship Act. Chain Saws are clearly more efficient than hand tools (and arguably more environmentally friendly). If the period is designated nationally, users adverse to hearing a chain saw can be forewarned and avoid the area. If "noise" is a hurdle that prevents the use of chain saws, then battery operated saws could be used.


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## Philbert (Dec 22, 2018)

I asked some USFS guys about battery powered chain saws on wilderness trails. It was a non-starter. 

But things can change. 

Philbert


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## Hyker (Dec 26, 2018)

I like the idea of a "quiet" chainsaw, but I too doubt the battery operated saws are developed to the degree to be practical in backcountry use.


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## Hyker (Dec 26, 2018)

I am in search of examples of chainsaws used in wilderness areas by either BLM, USFS, NPS, or USF and Wildlife Service. You help is appreciated.


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## newforest (Jan 2, 2019)

I had never seen this thread before. I can't even read the first page of it because I know the idiocy of the USES and other Ecology agencies I would find within would drive me too crazy to type anything. I have been around far too many gov't employees who think the answer to all problems is to just give them more money to solve their special problem.

Here is another classic USFS Wilderness story - they asked me for help obtaining seed from a certain tree species. But only from within a specified small local area. The best example of the species that can be found are inside a Wilderness area - and actually, all through a constructed campground (must have been in there before the Wilderness designation, I don't get that part). These were also the only trees I could find with seed that year, after basically volunteering a day of time away from a paying job looking for them (rain/rest day for me). I told them the seed could be easily obtained by just cutting some 6" twigs off the ends of the branches. Can't - Wilderness. Can't touch the live native natural trees even inside a man constructed campground, it would be disturbing the "Wilderness". 

They also suggested I needed a permit, to collect seed - for them to use. There was only 3 days left before the seed would ripen and blow away in the wind, but it would take them 3 weeks to make a decision on the permit. I also basically knew that if I was a "non" profit group of some kind, with a nice salary and benefits, they would gladly hand over a thousand dollars for the seed. But if I wanted to make a casual $200 for a short work day and 4 hours of travel time, I would be robbing the poor Government with my "profit".

So, they would just have to suffer with the 'Good Enough' rather than the 'Perfect' and use seed from outside the local area. Because, Wilderness.

Whole area was shot through with invasive Asian Honeysuckle and they were completely helpless in making a decision on what to do about that. I told them to wrap a chain around the big ones, next to the road (not a roadless "Wilderness", somehow), and pull them out with a vehicle, to wipe out the main on-site seed source, pronto. Can't - Wilderness - no use of vehicles. Herbicide - nope, special Herbicide policy still under construction after 5 years of study. I am fairly sure all those non-native Honeysuckle are still there (four years on, now), spreading steadily through the Wilderness, while the USFS employees whine and moan that they don't have enough money to hire a bunch of people to spend 3 hours pulling little Honeysuckle bushes out of the ground by hand and f-off and drive around for the other 5 hours of the day, all on a nice salary/benefits package. (And Honeysuckle really is a bad invasive plant problem - best to start eradicating it as soon as you discover it.)


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## Aleksandar Milojevik (Apr 29, 2019)

Is this thread still alive guys???


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## AT sawyer (May 8, 2019)

Alive but probably on life support. Most folks seem to have pretty hardened opinions on the subject.


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## Philbert (May 8, 2019)

Not much has changed. 

Philbert


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