# Crane removals....



## Ghillie (Sep 26, 2008)

I thought a discussion started in another thread should be brought out to another thread. Here are some pics from when our aerial was broken back in August.

It was a "shingle" oak between a garage and some wires. The groundman had a break while I was rigging to take half the spar so he took some pictures....And yes I know I'll never look like a squirrel in a tree!!!


----------



## ddhlakebound (Sep 26, 2008)

Did you see the size of that squirrel???:jawdrop: 

Nice pics Ghillie, I'm patiently waiting for my first crane job too....Hope I don't have to wait as long as Nails has been.

Nice pics.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 26, 2008)

Last four pics of this job.

















[email protected] it was a HOT day with NO wind....And yes that is underwear on my head..







I think I have some more of a row of white poplars we took down after we got our new aerial.... I'll see if I can post them tonight.

Be safe,

Fred


----------



## Nailsbeats (Sep 26, 2008)

Nice to see the black panties on the head, lol. Now that's what I'm taliking about.

Looks like you are running a 440? Love mine, both of them, muffler modded of course.


----------



## 460magnumMOD (Sep 26, 2008)

I love crane jobs. I'm just the groundie on them, but they move so fast. I gotta get some pics of my boss up in the tree with our crane guy. I just hope we find another decent guy to help on the ground for our next one cause man it is hell buy yourself. Those pieces just come in so fast and so big. We have a bandit 254 chipper with a winch and i struggle to keep up. They're usually hanging another large leader over my head buy the time I'm getting the last bit through the chipper. Our crane guy is great though, when things get backed up he'll actually come out of the crane and help out even if just running the winch for me while I cut 'em and hook 'em. We all have head sets with mics on them for communication which helps out greatly.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 26, 2008)

Pics of a job from last week. 

No we didn't NEED it but it is a part of our "arsenal" and the only time we don't use it is when we can't get it in a back yard for one reason or another.

We left the aerial in the drive with the chipper in the LZ so we had little to no dragging. Once it was hooked and cut, the crane operator lowered it right behind the chipper.






We set the choker on this at the break, cut as low as we could. Then layed it down nice and controlled, trimmed to size and loaded on the crane. No holes in the yard and no "out of control wood" LOL.... (I said wood)













The last one is just because I look GOOD!!!


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 26, 2008)

460magnumMOD said:


> I love crane jobs. I'm just the groundie on them, but they move so fast. I gotta get some pics of my boss up in the tree with our crane guy. I just hope we find another decent guy to help on the ground for our next one cause man it is hell buy yourself. Those pieces just come in so fast and so big. We have a bandit 254 chipper with a winch and i struggle to keep up. They're usually hanging another large leader over my head buy the time I'm getting the last bit through the chipper. Our crane guy is great though, when things get backed up he'll actually come out of the crane and help out even if just running the winch for me while I cut 'em and hook 'em. We all have head sets with mics on them for communication which helps out greatly.



Yep, with an aerial and a crane, you at least need two ground guys. When things go smooth you can keep the chipper awfully busy.

What kind of comm set-up do you use? That is an area that we are lacking. My partner and I have hand signals down pretty good but sometimes you come up against something that is better explained with words. And I think it is a pain to yell down 55' over the sound of the chipper, crane and bucket truck.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 26, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Nice to see the black panties on the head, lol. Now that's what I'm taliking about.
> 
> Looks like you are running a 440? Love mine, both of them, muffler modded of course.



I left the lace ones at home.... LOL... If I knew you would be seeing them I would have dressed up a bit! :biggrinbounce2: 

I like the 440 and the 371 about equally.

Haven't modded the 440 yet but it is on the list. I usually leave the 440 with 20" bar on the ground for those guys and take the 371 with 24" bar up with me. You might be suprised how much I use the whole bar... And the leaders come off soooooo much nicer when you don't leave an uncut sliver on the other side that you can't see!


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 26, 2008)

ddhlakebound said:


> Did you see the size of that squirrel???:jawdrop:
> 
> Nice pics Ghillie, I'm patiently waiting for my first crane job too....Hope I don't have to wait as long as Nails has been.
> 
> Nice pics.



LOL... I really confused a neighbors dog walking out on a limb on one job.. Came rushing and barking right up to the fence after they saw movement in the tree. Should have seen the slam on the brakes when they saw the "size of that squirrel"

Thanks, I think I have some of one more job from the bucket looking down.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 26, 2008)

This is the last of some white poplars we took down. The first is a limb from the previous tree we lowered right into the chipper.

The last few we took the whole tree and set it down by the chipper, limbed it and took the trunk and loaded it on the bed of the crane. Winched the top and limbs into the chipper.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 26, 2008)




----------



## epicklein22 (Sep 27, 2008)

Nice pics Ghillie. If I was still attending Ohio Wesleyan I would have loved to work with you sometime. Over the summer, crane jobs were the best. We got a lot done and a lot of firewood/saw logs. Our crane guy was sick..he got that crane in the tightest positions and on slopes, wish I had pics. I was the only ground guy and usually kept up pretty well. We used a 17 morbark that just ripped. I would keep a lot of limbs for firewood, but usually my crane guy could guide them right into the chipper. I would start the limb and then unhook the cable and continue to chip it up. Very proficient. The best is when you can get the tree in one cut and then feed the whole thing in the chipper, gotta love technology.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 27, 2008)

hey ghillie try this. 

stay clipped into the ball while you are setting the choker then rappel to your cut spot, buckstrap in and then pull your line free. then retie in. that way you can get around the tree with the choker and do what you gotta do to make sure all is all set.

what i try to do with the choker/strap is set it so that the ball is on the backside of the wood as the crane guy picks up it will get pulled toward the boom. also try to make your cut directly to the boom so you dont have to worry about getting it pinched. 

its much easier to explain in person but if you dont understand what i mean i'll do my best for ya.


dog's do tend to give you that look when they see you in the tree. lol


----------



## oldirty (Sep 27, 2008)

think of a clock. 

you set the choker at 6 the boom is at 12 you are at 3.

reach the saw around and cut 9 to about 1130 then (saw is still in the kerf) bring the saw back to 6 and push to 12. as you are almost done with the cut the CO should be tensioning the pick and as you finish your cut you will notice the wood is rising off the stem but still connected because you havent gotten to 12 yet. its at this point you should be able to tell if you can finish cutting to 12 or if you need to pull out the saw and finsh with a quick backcut/relief cut to set it free.


this is on a straight up and down piece.


if you have a big lateral and you got it strapped near the end and you are not just fast cutting to let it go (maybe you got a house or wires under the pick) put a scarf cut on the topside of the wood (piecut whatever you call it) and start the under cut. as you are cutting the CO picks it up and finish the cut leaving no holding wood. just dont rush the cut, let the crane continue to pick it up. that face cut you just made should be closed by the time you finish the cut.

there are so many different ways to do crane work though. i'd love to hear of the way others do.

great topic ghillie. if we can only get jomoco away from the political forums i am sure he knows a trick or two.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 27, 2008)

I know exactly what you are talking about OD.

I've used all those tricks. Best advice I can give anyone is cut slow. You don't want it to just pop off. You might not like where it wants to go.

Check that... Best advice is keep your head below the cut. YOU ARE NOT quick enough to duck if the butt comes flying at you!!!

OD... We had an eighty some foot dead elm we took down that was taller than the crane but the crotches where lower than the tip. I would choke the limb as high as the crane would reach and still have room to snug it up. I would then scarf the bottom to about half the dia. (for a strong hinge) and start a slow back cut making sure the tip of the crane is not above where I was cutting (so when the limb breaks it doesn't swing away from the crane but to it instead). As the limb starts to lean into the scarf the CO needs to slowly lower the limb but not let any slack in the line so it free falls. edit: make the scarf WIDE so it won't break the hinge untill the limb is upside down.

If you can understand what I was trying to say (kind of a slow motion butt-tie). You can take down bigger trees with a smaller crane.

Just use your felling experience at height. Watch the angle you are cutting and which way the limb is going to swing when you cut it free.

Watch for barberchairing!!! I cut slow and usually keep the kerf at a little above eye level so I can see if it is twisting. I do a lot of plunging to keep the kerf open and not bind the bar.

Hope that is understandable.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 27, 2008)

oldirty said:


> think of a clock.
> 
> you set the choker at 6 the boom is at 12 you are at 3.
> 
> ...



One thing... Put the tip of the crane directly over the scarf and hinge so the limb isn't pulling away from the tree but up. It will stand up nice and pretty and won't (shouldn't) jump at you or swing back into you.


----------



## toddstreeservic (Sep 27, 2008)

Man I wish that we could afford a crane! It would make some jobs sooo much easier! Oh well too many other things neede first. Great pics!


----------



## oldirty (Sep 27, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> One thing... Put the tip of the crane directly over the scarf and hinge so the limb isn't pulling away from the tree but up. It will stand up nice and pretty and won't (shouldn't) jump at you or swing back into you.



yup. thats what i was trying to say. lol


i stink with terminology. lol


and i like how you emphasize the fact that you should make your cuts at eye level or almost above your head. thats something not everyone under stands. even when using the bucket and crane, same thing.


there is almost no way to get out of the way if you are cutting in a bad position.

but seeing how the crane pics the wood up and a way you should make the cut so that there is no way the wood can get you. 

you are a pretty smart guy ghillie. 

lol


----------



## Blakesmaster (Sep 27, 2008)

This treads chock fool o' goodies. Thanks guys. Keep it comin'.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 27, 2008)

oldirty said:


> yup. thats what i was trying to say. lol
> 
> 
> i stink with terminology. lol
> ...



Yep, I didn't fully understand untill I almost broke my hand trying to deflect a 10" butt of a limb that wanted a piece of my face!!

Really put things in perspective since 10" is the lower range of the picks we usually take off a tree.

Man!! That hurt!! But it is a lesson well learned.

Another thing is that there is a learning curve to understanding where to balance a branch. I always choke it up as high as I can and still be on good solid wood (enough to hold the whole weight of the branch/ leader). But always be prepared for the butt to go skyward and the top to invert and come at you. You can look at charts to see how much a solid section should weigh but it takes some experience to tell how much all that foliage and little stuff weighs on the end.


Smart...........and good looking!!!........LIVIN' THE DREAM!!!! 


LOL


----------



## BC WetCoast (Sep 27, 2008)

Was your groundman wearing some of those miracle fibre saw pants? Only comes in the colour blue and is so light.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 27, 2008)

nothing worse than watching your cut do what it wants to do.


a guy around here (mass) got some of his teeth popped out of his mouth from a butt swinging the wrong way on him not too long ago.



if you really have no idea what is going to happen your best bet is to make an over under cut and rappel to a new spot and let the crane break it away.


and ghillie, it looks like you are truelly livin' the dream. 

i only got the looks! lol


----------



## Blakesmaster (Sep 27, 2008)

oldirty said:


> if you really have no idea what is going to happen your best bet is to make an over under cut and rappel to a new spot and let the crane break it away.



Yes. Of course. Hadn't thought of that. This is so good guys. I sure hope I get this crane job now. What type of hand signals do you guys use? I assume there are industry standard "approved hand communication gestures" but I'd like some simple, quick ones any dumazz tree guy like myself could grasp.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 27, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> Was your groundman wearing some of those miracle fibre saw pants? Only comes in the colour blue and is so light.



Good point.

That is something we are addressing.

99% of the time the guys on the ground do not need a saw, but that 1% is all it would take to put you in the hospital.

Helmets (hardhats to some people, no chin strap) eye and hearing protection and gloves are worn but chaps and helmets with chinstraps are being implemented as well as full body harness when in the bucket instead of just a saddle.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 27, 2008)

there sure is a set of hand signals. should be on the side of the crane where the operator is.


make a thumbs up. that is boom up.

thumbs down is boom down.

point left boom left, point right boom right. edit: with your thumb.

put both thumbs up in front of you so that the heels of you palms are together and that is boom out.

both thumbs together in the thumbs up and its boom in.

fist up is all stop.


pointer finger in the air and circling is cable up. pointer finger down circling is cable down.


putting a flat palm over the pointer finger tells the CO to go slow when cabling up or down.


----------



## Blakesmaster (Sep 27, 2008)

oldirty said:


> put both thumbs up in front of you so that the heels of you palms are together and that is boom out.
> 
> both thumbs together in the thumbs up and its boom in.



This I don't quite get, boss. Perhaps you mean thumbs down on the second? No matter, I don't think my guy's boom telescopes.


----------



## Blakesmaster (Sep 27, 2008)

Sorry. Too much Coors Light. As i was drainin' the lizard it occurred to me that most cranes probably telescope.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 27, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Yes. Of course. Hadn't thought of that. This is so good guys. I sure hope I get this crane job now. What type of hand signals do you guys use? I assume there are industry standard "approved hand communication gestures" but I'd like some simple, quick ones any dumazz tree guy like myself could grasp.



Other than standard crane hand signals:

Winch up- hand with first finger extended spirialing up

Winch down - Same but spiraling down

Boom up - make motion with forearm to simulate boom going up.

Boom down - same going down

Extend boom - fists with thumbs extended out

retract boom - thumbs extended in

boom left and right - point in the direction you need the boom.

Stop all motion - Closed fist.


I also make a vee with the palms of my hand either pointing down or up to let CO know I am going to scarf the limb and then make a "chopping motion" with my hand to let him know which way I am going to cut.

or if I am not going to scarf cut, I will just make the chopping motion to let him know how I am going to cut.

I try to keep the motions simple so I can do them with one hand so I can stop in mid cut, keep one hand on the saw still in the cut and adjust the crane if the piece is twisting or I need more lift on the piece (ie.. the kerf is closing on the bar)

Usually I get about halfway through the cut and start moving the bar in and out (like first time saw users do) in a "sawing motion". It keeps the bar moving so I can feel it start to pinch and I am also plunge cutting a little to keep the kerf open.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 27, 2008)

Beat me to it OD.

The ones we use are on the side of the crane on a sticker from the mfg.

As long as you and the CO are on the same page before you go up.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 27, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Sorry. Too much Coors Light. As i was drainin' the lizard it occurred to me that most cranes probably telescope.




lol.


i thought they all did.


----------



## Blakesmaster (Sep 27, 2008)

Thanks again guys. Any other tidbits?


----------



## chief116 (Sep 27, 2008)

our crane guy has a large clip on top of the ball, so the climbers rope doesn't rub the choker while getting into position, and the climber can take it out a lot easier. 
already forgot if it was said or not, but the limb's center of gravity will always swing directly under the tip of the crane, not a real problem on nice straight pines, but i've seen some close calls on large oak limbs in the last couple weeks. 
also, remember not to shock load the crane, same as a rope. we lifted a grove 2 1/2 ft off its front outrigger last week, and the operator was afraid he twisted the frame.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 27, 2008)

chief! no names!! lol


mightve been him though.


----------



## Wortown Mick (Sep 27, 2008)

Ol dirty, how many MA companies do alot of crane work ?

We brought in a 40 ton & a 1990 to dispose of some pines last week.. seems like we've got a crane around once or twice a month anyhow. 

The climber & the most competent person on the ground should know standard crane signals. Nuff said.

A 2 way radio with noise cancelling could be useful too.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 27, 2008)

Wortown Mick said:


> Ol dirty, how many MA companies do alot of crane work ?
> 
> We brought in a 40 ton & a 1990 to dispose of some pines last week.. seems like we've got a crane around once or twice a month anyhow.
> 
> ...



That is something I am looking into also....

Anyone have any suggestions? I know Sherril has something in their catalog.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 27, 2008)

3 companies ive worked for had them.


i'm thinking ive seen a few cranes running around here. some good looking ones and a few i wouldnt touch if i got double time to climb on.


its a tough expense for a company owner to own a crane but an even bigger one for someone to rent out.

if you got the work though, even though the expense is so high, you can really bang out the jobs.

what you need though is a good operator. sure anyone can pull levers but as far as tree work goes the best operators were once climbers themselves in my opinion.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 27, 2008)

ghillie. go to radioshack and get a set of those two way walky talkies. clip it to your collar and push to talk baby.

sure you can shell out the big bucks for a legit set up but how many times are you actually out of sight for that many crane picks?


but in the same breath it would nice to have to have.


even though you are correct in saying that the climber and the main groundguy should know the signals its a good idea for the whole crew to know what the scoop is....just in case you gotta relay the signals from around the house.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 27, 2008)

oldirty said:


> 3 companies ive worked for had them.
> 
> 
> i'm thinking ive seen a few cranes running around here. some good looking ones and a few i wouldnt touch if i got double time to climb on.
> ...



You hit the nail on the head....

We own our crane and the guy usually running the crane has been in the tree business since the late 80's.

When he is runnin' it, I usually don't have to stop a cut to motion the operator, he can read what is going on from the ground almost as good as I can from watching the kerf. At most I just slow down a little to make sure he sees what I see, he adjusts and I keep cutting.

My other two partners that sometimes are running the crane are getting the hang of it though. Neither one has done much climbing and neither has done a climbing removal so they are slower but in the long run it is a lot more efficient.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 27, 2008)

chief116 said:


> also, remember not to shock load the crane, same as a rope. .



this right here is sooooooo very important as well. the right cut in the tree makes all the difference in the world.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 27, 2008)

oldirty said:


> ghillie. go to radioshack and get a set of those two way walky talkies.  clip it to your collar and push to talk baby.
> 
> sure you can shell out the big bucks for a legit set up but how many times are you actually out of sight for that many crane picks?
> 
> ...



Nail on the head again..

OD, I was thinking the same on trying out some 'Shack specials, If nothing else than to cut down on the shouting back and forth on the tough removals.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 27, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> When he is runnin' it, I usually don't have to stop a cut to motion the operator, he can read what is going on from the ground almost as good as I can from watching the kerf. At most I just slow down a little to make sure he sees what I see, he adjusts and I keep cutting.
> 
> 
> > best feeling in the world is not having to worry about what the crane guy is doing. you can feel it when your cutting. but its totally up to you to not get the saw pinched. you gotta really be intune with whats going on in the kerf.
> ...


----------



## Wortown Mick (Sep 27, 2008)

oldirty said:


> this right here is sooooooo very important as well. the right cut in the tree makes all the difference in the world.



A local company to remain nameless recently shock loaded a crane and snapped both outriggers off the side.. over she went. Might not be as recent as a few yrs prior but I was hearing about it. Cant put an accurate date on it. There is just no reason to shock load a crane, lol


Im not sure how good a normal 2 way would suit itsself to tree work. I mean everyones had the moment when the guy in the airs met with shrugs or faux "OK" only to find out the message didnt get across. 
A normal crew operating everyday developes ESP and knows whats needed when where and why. On a crane job with an unfamiliar operator communication starts being more important.


I was thinking maybe some throat microphones like they use in the military would be cool , heheh. Maybe that or a decent 2 way.. a quality system with a good cancelling feature. 

No effective cancelling = a walkie talkie making a crater from a frustrated climber.


----------



## 460magnumMOD (Sep 27, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Yep, with an aerial and a crane, you at least need two ground guys. When things go smooth you can keep the chipper awfully busy.
> 
> What kind of comm set-up do you use? That is an area that we are lacking. My partner and I have hand signals down pretty good but sometimes you come up against something that is better explained with words. And I think it is a pain to yell down 55' over the sound of the chipper, crane and bucket truck.



I'm not sure of the particulars of the units. They're owned buy the crane operator. one of the head sets have husky on it, another peltor and nothing on the others. They have a button on the ear muff to turn the mic on and off. Just need to make sure mic is off when running saw or next to chipper. you can still hear everything just can't talk. I can find out from our crane guy and post it up. Most of our crane jobs are far reach or big pieces. The crane has a 148ft. reach (without the jib) and its usually fully extended. It's nice for the climber and crane operator to be able to discuss where to cut, how big to make the picks, where to rig from, ect. so not to overload the crane and tip it, or risk harm or damage to anything or anyone. One of our recent jobs was a large oak a little over 100' from where the crane was. We had to make real small pics and rig good and tight since they were swinging over a in ground pool and a 700,000 dollar house. That far away clear communication is key. I'm not the best with heights yet so the joke with my boss and the crane operator is that they're gunna hook me to the crane and take it all the way up. I may :censored: my pants but it just may work.


----------



## custom8726 (Sep 27, 2008)

oldirty said:


> 3 companies ive worked for had them.
> 
> 
> i'm thinking ive seen a few cranes running around here. some good looking ones and a few i wouldnt touch if i got double time to climb on.
> ...



Most Every one around here rents crane/operators by the hr. I learned crane/tree work with an old arlo 100' sign crane. In a way its a great way to learn because you really learn how to place those straps correctly and also cut in precarios situation's due to the limited lifting capacities. Now a days its 20+ toner's or better. We rent/lease 3 different cranes on a regular basis (atleast once a week) Ranging fron 23 to 40 ton's with 110-157' of boom (NO JIBS FOR TREE WORK) We have an ALTEC bucket and do a good amount of tree work the old school way but 90% of the time if we can utilize a crane we do. In and out and on to the next job makes more mony then spending 8hrs (without a crane) on a 2hr crane job to save $400.00 bucks. Do you guys use 2 straps generally? I always do. If for no other reason then a back up its a good idea, you can also utilize the same techniques for cutting and picking you guys described above with 2 straps at say 2 and 4 o-clock with the crane picking from 9 O-clock.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 27, 2008)

460magnumMOD said:


> I'm not sure of the particulars of the units. They're owned buy the crane operator. one of the head sets have husky on it, another peltor and nothing on the others. They have a button on the ear muff to turn the mic on and off. Just need to make sure mic is off when running saw or next to chipper. you can still hear everything just can't talk. I can find out from our crane guy and post it up. Most of our crane jobs are far reach or big pieces. The crane has a 148ft. reach (without the jib) and its usually fully extended. It's nice for the climber and crane operator to be able to discuss where to cut, how big to make the picks, where to rig from, ect. so not to overload the crane and tip it, or risk harm or damage to anything or anyone. One of our recent jobs was a large oak a little over 100' from where the crane was. We had to make real small pics and rig good and tight since they were swinging over a in ground pool and a 700,000 dollar house. That far away clear communication is key. I'm not the best with heights yet so the joke with my boss and the crane operator is that they're gunna hook me to the crane and take it all the way up. I may :censored: my pants but it just may work.



I would be interested in seeing what models the units are. I was just looking at fire fox throat mics that can be used with most low cost GMRS radios.

Looks like a good set-up and I can use them while hiking or hunting also. But if there are other units that would work better on the job, I would like to look.

And as far as taking you for a ride on the crane........ It has been my experience that you won't be any better with heights and your pants will be full of :censored: .....Lol...


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 27, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Most Every one around here rents crane/operators by the hr. I learned crane/tree work with an old arlo 100' sign crane. In a way its a great way to learn because you really learn how to place those straps correctly and also cut in precarios situation's due to the limited lifting capacities. Now a days its 20+ toner's or better. We rent/lease 3 different cranes on a regular basis (atleast once a week) Ranging fron 23 to 40 ton's with 110-157' of boom (NO JIBS FOR TREE WORK) We have an ALTEC bucket and do a good amount of tree work the old school way but 90% of the time if we can utilize a crane we do. In and out and on to the next job makes more mony then spending 8hrs (without a crane) on a 2hr crane job to save $400.00 bucks. Do you guys use 2 straps generally? I always do. If for no other reason then a back up its a good idea, you can also utilize the same techniques for cutting and picking you guys described above with 2 straps at say 2 and 4 o-clock with the crane picking from 9 O-clock.



Don't usually use two chokers. Unless it is special circumstance, ie. trying to keep a y shaped branch from flipping. I guess we never felt the need. Do you use cables or nylon straps?

Our crane is around 65' without the jib, (I've never used it) and now that you mention it, I am not sure of the rating on it weight wise.

Our jobs are usually in tight spots that you can't take big pieces. Untill you get to the trunk.


----------



## Wortown Mick (Sep 27, 2008)

Im not the one setting the chokers so Im not gonna comment.. But Ill say ive never seen two slings set in the same place, above Y's as mentioned yes.

Maybe the helmet communicator set combined with some throat mikes?

People can talk clear in choppers hahaha, Im sure a chipper & chainsaw are easily worked around.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 27, 2008)

rarely use 2 straps unless the wood is huge. we use 2 straps though all the time if its we are picking a multi stem top or branch were you can put the straps on a couple different branches and get a nice even pick.


and if the stick isnt long enough we put the jib on, not too often though. cant pick much and you sure as hell gotta make sure that you dont stress the jib with a bad cut. everything gotta be real smooth when the jib is on.


custom....for the amount you use a crane can you justify buying one or does your guy make it worth your while to keep renting? out of curiousity i ask.

i think ours goes out for a G a day. i dont run it so i dont know and never thought to ask. i had to "rent" ours (my boss') one day for a side job and he threw me a bone for 400$ to use it for like 6 hrs. which was reeeal nice of him. i think he gave me that price though because i paid the operater by climbing one of his side jobs so there wasnt an operator cost to me using it.

worked out good.


----------



## treemandan (Sep 27, 2008)

Nice work Hulkster.


----------



## treemandan (Sep 27, 2008)

I don't know if it was mentioned but using 2 straps while picking a trunk section will even the load and will come off smoover than just one. Not saying you can't just use one.
As far as using a strap for spin control I just use a rope sling made a climbing line, of course its not a pirimary.
I have used as many as 3. I had to have the cable pulled tight a few times to insure equality all around but it was real sweet. Pretty much saved 3 picks.
I don't like cable at all. No way, I go for web straps. Lift all.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 28, 2008)

treemandan said:


> I don't know if it was mentioned but using 2 straps while picking a trunk section will even the load and will come off smoover than just one. Not saying you can't just use one.
> As far as using a strap for spin control I just use a rope sling made a climbing line, of course its not a pirimary.
> I have used as many as 3. I had to have the cable pulled tight a few times to insure equality all around but it was real sweet. Pretty much saved 3 picks.
> I don't like cable at all. No way, I go for web straps. Lift all.



When I use one strap on a trunk section, I take into account where the ball is and which side is going to come up first. Start my cut on that side and ask for more lift if the kerf starts to close. Just enough to keep the kerf open. Much more and it will start to barberchair on you.

When we are lifting the last trunk section off the ground, I will use felling wedges to keep the bar from pinching (usually three to four on a 3-4' trunk) but I only use the wedges sparingly when cutting in the bucket or in the tree.

I tried them a couple of times but found that you can't tell what your pick is going to do because the wedge is holding it open. You could have way too much lift on a piece and not know it untill it snaps and jumps a couple of feet off the tree....... Another lesson learned!!!



Thanks Dan.


----------



## Blakesmaster (Sep 28, 2008)

*Gotsa 'nuther question...*

When taking a pick with the crane what weight do you try to hit for safety? i was thinking 2/3 of the maximum pick amount for whatever angle the boom is at. Still too much or would it be fine? Between the crane guys weight at angle charts and my weight per diameter charts ( thanks sherrill! ) we planned the majority of the tree out already.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> When taking a pick with the crane what weight do you try to hit for safety? i was thinking 2/3 of the maximum pick amount for whatever angle the boom is at. Still too much or would it be fine? Between the crane guys weight at angle charts and my weight per diameter charts ( thanks sherrill! ) we planned the majority of the tree out already.



You know.... I hate to admit it..... but we haven't used a chart very often.

I guess we have a feel for the size....

But that said, 2/3rds sounds like a good figure to me depending on the cut.

Maybe a little less if there is a chance the load is going to swing or invert. That would give the CO a little leeway if he has to move it quick to get it away from you or other objects.

It would also depend on the CO. I would stay in a comfortable range untill you get a feel for how he (or she) is going to handle the load.


Off the top of my head I can't think of anything else with a crane that is as dynamic as tree work.


----------



## Blakesmaster (Sep 28, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> You know.... I hate to admit it..... but we haven't used a chart very often.
> 
> I guess we have a feel for the size....
> 
> ...



Thanks, boss. The crane work I've been a part of neither the climber nor operator looked like much of the charts and book types, it was more instinctual for them. The only reason I'm bringing them out is because it's my first gig and I want to make sure nothing will happen. I doubt we'll have any issue with twisting, I'm only bringing in the crane so the 100 feet or so of spar left after we limb and top can be lifted out the tree and onto our trailers in millable lengths.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Thanks, boss. The crane work I've been a part of neither the climber nor operator looked like much of the charts and book types, it was more instinctual for them. The only reason I'm bringing them out is because it's my first gig and I want to make sure nothing will happen. I doubt we'll have any issue with twisting, I'm only bringing in the crane so the 100 feet or so of spar left after we limb and top can be lifted out the tree and onto our trailers in millable lengths.



Fortune favors the prepared.....(or something like that!)

Sounds like you are ahead of the game. You are getting pictures....right?


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Thanks, boss. The crane work I've been a part of neither the climber nor operator looked like much of the charts and book types, it was more instinctual for them. The only reason I'm bringing them out is because it's my first gig and I want to make sure nothing will happen. I doubt we'll have any issue with twisting, I'm only bringing in the crane so the 100 feet or so of spar left after we limb and top can be lifted out the tree and onto our trailers in millable lengths.



I guess you could say we have looked at the charts enough to know what we need to look at the chart for. If we are getting close to safe load limits.

Not that we don't use them or have them (one in the crane and two in the bucket truck).


----------



## Blakesmaster (Sep 28, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Fortune favors the prepared.....(or something like that!)
> 
> Sounds like you are ahead of the game. You are getting pictures....right?



You betcha I am! If I get the job... Not only will this be a blast, landing it will take a load off my mind in case something big breaks this winter. Like to have that lil cushion in the bank just in case.


----------



## treemandan (Sep 28, 2008)

John Hoadley outta West Chester showed me this cut. You can play with the weight as you cut and it stays in the cradle, it comes off clean but you have to know where its going. You can hide behind the higher angled back cut.





John had an articulating crane and wanted you to use two 1/2 lines off the hook instead of straps... which has its pros and cons. Just gimme the dam choke strap. Aside from his crane being limited and his brother being a schmuck they did allright with it. I like the big boys that look like barges. All that bending in the jib makes me wonder on those articulating cranes.


----------



## treemandan (Sep 28, 2008)

The 2 stumps on the right in the pic. The backcut is angled down to meet the level face cut. The face cut is about 2/3 the dia or more deep. The saw won't get caught up, The Dan hates that and if you want to see a full grown man toss a hissy fit you meet see me do it but only once in a very blue moon. I do get a kick out of hollering to and at everybody and make them run around like they are going to be able to actually help me get the saw out. I want to make them feel they are to blame anyway.
Anyway, even if the backcut can't be manipulated all the way through or you feel better with some holding wood so you can bail, the crane should be able to break it loose with smoovness.
I use notches on the more outstrected limbs or if its to dead for that I do use another sling.
I finally got the proper rigging to tie into the crane and is strongly advised for under a hunge


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 28, 2008)

*Riding the Pill*

Attached below is an article on "riding the pill" from TCI magazine.

Here is the whole archived issue of the magazine the article came from.

.


----------



## treemandan (Sep 28, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Attached below is an article on "riding the pill" from TCI magazine.
> 
> Here is the whole archived issue of the magazine the article came from.
> 
> .



Thanks Hulkster, its been awhile since I've read it. That 18 ton, 120 footer seems to be the drug of choice for all these hotshot tree hustlers around here. The Dan abides.

Lets play guess the weight... I was taking things small while in the tree, I say this is around 800 lbs. So I would judge for 1000.


----------



## treemandan (Sep 28, 2008)

These are older pics. I love this one. I should have rotated it before I put it on photobucket. One day, it will be the wallpaper.





Yeah , it needs work, sorry.


----------



## jomoco (Sep 28, 2008)

oldirty said:


> think of a clock.
> 
> you set the choker at 6 the boom is at 12 you are at 3.
> 
> ...



Well be careful what you ask for OD because here I am chuckling at the cuts described in this thread for crane picks.

Are you guys sure you want my input?

jomoco


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

yes jomoco. i would love to hear from you on this one. in fact i hope you have a better way to do things.


if you plan on ripping me apart, go for it, i want to know how i can do better. keep in mind though its not as easy for me to explain things on the keyboard as it is in person.

ive seen some of your work and when you come to this side of the forum i look forward to reading what you say.

so, please give me some input man!


----------



## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2008)

Wow "the dan", that sure is alot of crap hangin off ya there, lol. Interesting reading this one... crane work is cool no doubt. I still think the no access trees in the backyard are where a treeman shows his true skill. Its definately easy this treework, when you bring heavy equipment like that in. Unfortunately I have only needed one once so far this year. I'm not real expierienced with cranes, I've done like three crane jobs with my company. I wanted to make sure I would'nt embarrass myself is all- so I subbed out a buddy thats real good with that crap and just worked the ground and studied the technique. Last one I did myself, it came out of the blue- there was a spruce laying on a roof, well after we got that off I sold the lady on taking down this 65' maple that was all ripped up. It was awesome indeed. Just ride her up hook that sling, rappel down, pull line off crane tie in and hack. Then he would bring the crane back to me and lift me up again for the same process. Now I want something bigger, lol. In the early years (self employed) I would look at it as taking work away from me and my groundman, nowadays I can see the benifit as I'm busier and just want to get things done and move on to the next. If I get one by the end of the year I'll surely have my camera in someones hands taking pictures- then I'll force myself to figure how to post em. Hey if "the dan" can be walked through it WTF!!


----------



## jomoco (Sep 28, 2008)

oldirty said:


> yes jomoco. i would love to hear from you on this one. in fact i hope you have a better way to do things.
> 
> 
> if you plan on ripping me apart, go for it, i want to know how i can do better. keep in mind though its not as easy for me to explain things on the keyboard as it is in person.
> ...



Fear not OD, I may be a heartless monster in the political forum, but here I try to genuinely either learn or teach a few tricks that I hope provide benefit to climbers sincere in their wish to learn.

The first thing that struck me about this thread was the descriptions for release cuts on large dia pole picks being downright dangerous, particularly for the climber making the cut!

If you are in big vertical wood in the 2-4 ft range taking big picks and not making your release cuts properly, it is simply a matter of time before it bites you in the azz, particularly using large powerful cranes.

The danger is a reverse barber chair going down the wood past your steel core lanyard, tearing off and squishing you against the wood, perhaps even fatally.

This can be easily avoided with the proper release cut, and this is how I do it every time as if my very life depended on it.

Let's use the clock analogy used in this thread previously with the crane at high noon 12. I start my cut also at 12 with the crane behind be and minimum up tension being applied by the crane, I cut about 1/3rd through the pick, then work my way around to the other side in either direction without ever taking my saw out of the cut, it is at the point I pass the 6 oclock point heading in either the 9 or 3 oclock direction that I make my estimation of what the pick actually weighs and radio the crane op to apply that amount of tension to the pick before continuing to the actual release point at either 9 or 3 oclock.

This method ensures no nasty reverse barber chairs and no climbers spitting their guts out pinned against the remaining tree.

Once your ability to accurately guess the pick weights of varying wood species and sizes gets accurate, you will be able to move big wood exactly where you want it like a very heavy duty ballerina guys.

I hope this helps you guys avoid unnecessary injuries and work safer.

Two way radio communication is an absolute must for anyone that does crane removals on a regular basis. The best radio setup I've found is the Peltor Pro Comm plus integrated hard hat system in the PTT mode.

Work safe guys!

jomoco


----------



## treemandan (Sep 28, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Wow "the dan", that sure is alot of crap hangin off ya there, lol. Interesting reading this one... crane work is cool no doubt. I still think the no access trees in the backyard are where a treeman shows his true skill. Its definately easy this treework, when you bring heavy equipment like that in. Unfortunately I have only needed one once so far this year. I'm not real expierienced with cranes, I've done like three crane jobs with my company. I wanted to make sure I would'nt embarrass myself is all- so I subbed out a buddy thats real good with that crap and just worked the ground and studied the technique. Last one I did myself, it came out of the blue- there was a spruce laying on a roof, well after we got that off I sold the lady on taking down this 65' maple that was all ripped up. It was awesome indeed. Just ride her up hook that sling, rappel down, pull line off crane tie in and hack. Then he would bring the crane back to me and lift me up again for the same process. Now I want something bigger, lol. In the early years (self employed) I would look at it as taking work away from me and my groundman, nowadays I can see the benifit as I'm busier and just want to get things done and move on to the next. If I get one by the end of the year I'll surely have my camera in someones hands taking pictures- then I'll force myself to figure how to post em. Hey if "the dan" can be walked through it WTF!!


 you should do the pics now. Everything you do is amazing, you are going to need to remind yourself of that when you are 90. Yeah there ain't much more to crane work than that though its like when a climber starts to use a bucket- you have to be diverse. Like I said, " Anybody got a wiffle ball bat?"
Now at over a G a day we will see just how easy it is.


----------



## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2008)

Dan I truely doubt I'll ever see 90. But I really dont want to either, lol. Whiffel ball?? WTF??


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

jomoco said:


> Fear not OD, I may be a heartless monster in the political forum, but here I try to genuinely either learn or teach a few tricks that I hope provide benefit to climbers sincere in their wish to learn.
> 
> The first thing that struck me about this thread was the descriptions for release cuts on large dia pole picks being downright dangerous, particularly for the climber making the cut!
> 
> ...





thank jomoco. 


so what you are saying is that you relief cut first and then chase your cut to the release point?

(without sounding like i am saying i know what you mean after you say it so i sound like i know.....)

i try to (on the bigger wood), if i am on the 3 o clock, reach around the wood and cut the all the wood from the 9 o clock side until the wood is gone from 6-12 (tip of bar at 12 and the rear handle is at 6)and then cut the wood from 6 to 12 on the 3 o clock side to the release point(tip of bar at 9 and rear handle at 3). that way when i do get near the end of my cut the power head is not dogged in and i can pull the saw without fear of pinch. 

is that what you would call the "box cut"? 

the only reason i'd tell anyone to make this cut is to keep the bar from getting pinched. 

i need a helmet cam. lol

i hear you though on the pinched climber choking on his guts. scary.

our crane is not that big. 27ton at the most. so we shy away from making the over under cuts that a bigger crane would have no problem breaking free.

my CO and i have a great working relationship though. before almost every cut we hand signal each other the way he wants the cut. ive found on the bigger stuff its easier on the crane to have the ball on the other side of the wood ( think ball, wood, boom) and that cut i described works out best to release the wood in a controlled manner. 

on the ground for the butt cut its the same thing. if i dog in at 6 and remove that side of the clock (12 to 6) and then finish the cut dogging in at 9 to remove the 6 to 12 it'll come off clean.

i guess what i am saying is that i always want the ball on the other side of the wood from the boom. that way it gets "pulled" toward the boom as the cut is finished.


make sense?

and in all seriousness jomoco, i want you to hang over here a little more often than you do......33 years is along time climber and you have forgotten more than most know. help me out!


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Dan I truely doubt I'll ever see 90. But I really dont want to either, lol. Whiffel ball?? WTF??



is he on the run for what he did to the sheriff's daughter? "did it like this, did like that, did it with a wiffle ball bat"?


90 sure does seem like a long time........if i make it 70 i'd be surprised. i lived pretty hard and fast for quite some time. i dont think the ticker i got plans on living that long though. lol


----------



## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2008)

The first time I cut from a crane I did half of a really nasty red oak tree on a lake with the deck jogging right around the trunk. My friend did half and then as he was finishing the wood from his side I headed up mine. A while latter he was helping guide me through this- I'm not a wuss I just wanted to be safe sinse I had never done it- on his advice I just used the 200T and cut straight through from the back (thes pics were mostly vertical), well the saw pinched and I got to look like a greenhorn for awhile till crane guy adjusted tention. After that I said screw this and grabbed the 372 (cuttin sweet) and just reached up and around the front and hacked 9 back over to 3 (or whatever, lol), pulled the saw out and started hacking even with my front cut from the underside of 9 back to underside of 3. Whew, that was tiring, lol. Then they came off sweet- I cant bear to yank on my 200T, lol. But I definately liked the big saw better.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

you really dont want to be using the smaller saws on the crane jobs. they dont have the bar or grunt to finish cuts.

i like to bring my 361 up with me, that is until the wood is big then its a bigger saw. and then bigger.....that 660 i got with 28inch bar is over kill to pluck tops but real nice for the stem. nothing like arm cramps in the tree!


----------



## jomoco (Sep 28, 2008)

oldirty said:


> thank jomoco.
> 
> 
> so what you are saying is that you relief cut first and then chase your cut to the release point?
> ...



I just end up insulting somebody somehow everytime I visit here OD!

And no, a true boxcut would be suicidal on a crane pick!

I think you get the basic point I was lamely making bout release cuts starting on the crane side so that any binding occurs on wood already cut though.

Crane removals can be deceptively dangerous for guys just getting started doing them, and I'm sure I could write a book on the subject.

The worst injury I've ever had in my career in the removal biz happened with a crane with a stupid operator at the controls. It was a situation in which I specifically told the operator he would have to rotate each pick about 350 degrees to avoid damaging a remaining live healthy tree. After about 15 picks this way the operator decided screw this and knocked the big live green leader I had so painstakingly been trying to save off with his boom assembly so we would no longer have to rotate to avoid it. I immediately got on the radio to him and made it unmistakably clear to him that cranes are for lifting and that I do all the cutting. At the point this idiot operator did this boneheaded stunt there was only one final vertical pick left, and unbeknownst to any of us was the fact that in tearing that green leader off with his boom end assembly, he had knocked the cotter pin off the retaining rod at the pulley on the boom end. I was positioning myself to choke the last pick at the point the operator positioned the boom end 90 feet over me and the half inch dia 18 inch long steel retaining rod fell out of the boom end and fell 90 feet before hitting me on the left shoulder absolutely shattering my left clavickle bone and rendering my left arm useless and me in agony in the tree, completely clueless as to what the hell had just happened.

I've got the titanium holding the remnants of my left clavickle together as I type this to remind me to never work with amateur CO's, and you can bet your azz I never have since.

And this was after over 30 years of having never seriously hurt myself on the job, that's what my motocross bikes are for!

Work safe guys!

jomoco


----------



## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2008)

oldirty said:


> you really dont want to be using the smaller saws on the crane jobs. they dont have the bar or grunt to finish cuts.
> 
> i like to bring my 361 up with me.


 Yeah that was the feeling I got right off. I see in the allmark vids (white pines) he allways leaves a shelf higher on the back is that the safest because of potential butt kicking back?? Is that the way you do it? BTW "the ripper" (as I call it now) is running sweet and hasnt blown up yet, lol.


----------



## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2008)

Jomoco that really sucks, my sympathies on that one! being hurt seriously by someone else's incompetence after all those years climbing must surely have sucked. MDS.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Yeah that was the feeling I got right off. I see in the allmark vids (white pines) he allways leaves a shelf higher on the back is that the safest because of potential butt kicking back?? Is that the way you do it? BTW "the ripper" (as I call it now) is running sweet and hasnt blown up yet, lol.



i think he leaves the shelf so he can break it free and yes so it stays in the same place as he picks it. i used to make those cuts on bigger cranes ive worked with but not anymore because our crane is not that big.


----------



## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2008)

oldirty said:


> i think he leaves the shelf so he can break it free and yes so it stays in the same place as he picks it. i used to make those cuts on bigger cranes ive worked with but not anymore because our crane is not that big.


 So you would just go even or just one cut on the type cuts I tried to describe??


----------



## jomoco (Sep 28, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Jomoco that really sucks, my sympathies on that one! being hurt seriously by someone else's incompetence after all those years climbing must surely have sucked. MDS.



Thanks MDS.

The hardest part was keeping my cool and getting off that stick with only one functioning arm, gathering my wits and gear, instructing the crew how to finish up, then driving my toyota stickshift tooltruck from escondido to la mesa's grossmont emergency room with only one arm. Morphine is agony's best friend.

jomoco


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Jomoco that really sucks, my sympathies on that one! being hurt seriously by someone else's incompetence after all those years climbing must surely have sucked. MDS.



damn jomoco! that sucks. glad to hear it was your shoulder and not your head though. stay safe man! and please dont hesitate to post in here. feelings be damned!




tree MDS said:


> So you would just go even or just one cut on the type cuts I tried to describe??




(this is soooo hard to describe on a keyboard)


rarely do i cut the wood on the boom side first and then finish backside to the boom as this will get the wood to pop off and thats what we try to avoid. that causes the shock loading.


on big cranes you can make those shelves (over under cut). its the smaller cranes that you cant unless you are not worried about the equipment.

but anyway with the "shelf" you want to make it side to side so the crane go boom left or right to break it free. you dont want to do that over under with the boom because then it turns into a nightmare for the CO to get it loose.


help at all? lol


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

jomoco said:


> Thanks MDS.
> 
> The hardest part was keeping my cool and getting off that stick with only one functioning arm, gathering my wits and gear, instructing the crew how to finish up, then driving my toyota stickshift tooltruck from escondido to la mesa's grossmont emergency room with only one arm. Morphine is agony's best friend.
> 
> jomoco



damn you one tough old bird!


----------



## custom8726 (Sep 28, 2008)

Ok I will try to catch up, First off I like jomoco's advice on the relief cuts for many circumstances especially if you are working with a new (to you) crane operator or crane. A good crane operator will not over load the pick hence causing a shock load to the crane and a obvious danger to the climber. A barber chair is usually the cause of bad choker placement or boom position when picking. To get back to some questions directed to me, I use nylon straps 98% of the time and always use 2. It takes an extra 30 sec to put a second strap on the pick. I have seen nylons fail before and if you use the crane operators straps you have no idea where and what they have been through. Always inspect the straps for obvious abbrasions and never assume just because you can not see a blemish there is not one present-(MORAL) USE A SECOND STRAP!! Once you start using a second strap you will relize the benefits even with vertical picks its so much smoother picking equally strait up VS Lifting the side you are cutting and trying to keep up with the crane or vice vs's. Now I doubt jomoco would agree with this method but I often just cut strait through finishing my cut at the boom. I do this on vertical picks and with a good crane OP and a fast enough saw it works quit well, but I will agree it is not as safe as the relief cut method and should only be used if you are very comfortable with the crane ops ability to correctly PRE-TENSION the pick and or keep up with it if he is under tentioned. You will also learn to watch your cut closely and can tell if the pick is over tentioned before you get 2/3rds way through your cut you then can single to the crane op to let off a little. Mother nature makes sure there is not an exact formula to follow for the perfect cut or pick HENCE give yourself plenty of lead way when using the load chart and wood chart and always have a back up plan. For instance if you can tie in under where you intend on making your cut and lanyard in at a lateral just incase of a barber chair you have a back up. I am sure some will think thats a bad idea also because if you got to bail quick you are limited by you lanyard, I am comfortable enough in my ability to properly position the straps where I have no intention of cutting and bailing. Also your already tied in and ready for the crane op to pick you back up simply lanyard in and flip your climbing line over the spar you just cut and continue on. Ok I am rambling here sorry. As far as OLDIRTY question on the benefits of owning you own crane, I would love to but It's a huge expense for a small company to take on. At this point I am forced to rent and lease but in the near future I would like to invest in a 23-27 ton rear mount crane for my own tree work and also have a full time crane op to lease out with the crane to other tree companies- construction companies-ETC..ETC.. When I do not need it. That way I can justify the expense. If I only wanted a truck crane for my own company I would have to compromise on the size and lifting capacities due to there is just not enough money in tree work alone to justify a 200k crane by itself atleast for me currently anyways. Ok, Rant over.


----------



## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2008)

Oldirty, so with the smaller crane you pretty much just try and hang the piece all nice like and just cut right on through from the back?? Correct? That way its easier on the boom even if your saw gets pinched correct?


----------



## custom8726 (Sep 28, 2008)

Forgot I prefer my 361 most of the time while doing crane work but often I end up with the 372 24" and on rare occasions the 394 36" I hate those days.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Oldirty, so with the smaller crane you pretty much just try and hang the piece all nice like and just cut right on through from the back?? Correct? That way its easier on the boom even if your saw gets pinched correct?



yes and no.

like i said almost no pick is the same and you do need to put a relief cut somewhere. for me ,most times, my relief cut comes from the very start of the cut. and yes i try to cut from under the ball to the boom all in one smooth move......

and yes it is easier on the boom but like i said at the beginning of my cut i try to use that as my relief cut......thats why it is so important to be aware of the kerf...after some time (like anything we do) you can "feel" what kind of cut you are going to use.

damn this double speak of mine!!!

custom. i might have to start bringing two straps with me just to give it a shot. do you put them on the same side or on the opposite side of each other?


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Forgot I prefer my 361 most of the time while doing crane work but often I end up with the 372 24" and on rare occasions the 394 36" I hate those days.



lol. those are the lots of water and banana days!


----------



## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2008)

I love my older 372 (with the 71cc) and 20" bar in a tree- crane or no crane that trees gonna pay, lol.


----------



## jomoco (Sep 28, 2008)

oldirty said:


> (this is soooo hard to describe on a keyboard)
> 
> but anyway with the "shelf" you want to make it side to side so the crane go boom left or right to break it free. you dont want to do that over under with the boom because then it turns into a nightmare for the CO to get it loose.
> 
> ...



Ok OD, you asked for it, so don't get all offended or nothin buddy.

Instructing a crane op to boom left or right to break off a pick of any size is complete insanity, and any CO worth his salt knows it.

The rotation on any crane of any size is the very weakest link in the entire operational range of maneuvers cranes make.

It is just this type of stuff that gets me in trouble here so please don't post anymore dangerous nonsense like you've just done OD, I'm tryin to be cool and friendly here bro, so work with me on that.

The rotational weakness virtually all cranes suffer from is the precise reason a crane must be perfectly level before jack happens.

Be safe guys!

jomoco


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

jomoco said:


> Ok OD, you asked for it, so don't get all offended or nothin buddy.
> 
> Instructing a crane op to boom left or right to break off a pick of any size is complete insanity, and any CO worth his salt knows it.
> 
> ...




no offense taken man. thats why i dont do it. these were instructions from the CO's back when i started on them. "make an over under and get out the way"


i didnt say to do that did i? i gotta go back and read some.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

yup i saw where i said it. 

damn. ummmmm....


please no over under (snap cut) cuts people! i am in no way shape or form a crane operator although i do load the wood on the odd occasion. 


jomoco is correct and i have not studied for any certifications yet. i just climb off them, not run them.


any of what i have said here i use but doesnt mean it is the proper way. use your own discretion in the tree. i'd hate for you to get banged up and blame me on your way to the hospital.


----------



## Blakesmaster (Sep 28, 2008)

oldirty said:


> any of what i have said here i use but doesnt mean it is the proper way. use your own discretion in the tree. i'd hate for you to get banged up and blame me on your way to the hospital.



Nice disclaimer, Dirt. Now I'm all sorts of confused. We'll probably just make smaller picks, dog in at 6, tip at 12, and blast on through till dogs are at 3 and tip is at nine. Leave a bit of holding wood, do a relief cut an inch beneath from 12 straight back, rappel down a bit and see if 'ee can't winch 'er up. Gotta jet now, but I'll read the responses later.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Nice disclaimer, Dirt. Now I'm all sorts of confused. We'll probably just make smaller picks, dog in at 6, tip at 12, and blast on through till dogs are at 3 and tip is at nine. Leave a bit of holding wood, do a relief cut an inch beneath from 12 straight back, rappel down a bit and see if 'ee can't winch 'er up. Gotta jet now, but I'll read the responses later.




lol.

like i said. i use all of what i said here in the tree during crane work and havent been wrecked by doing it. 

jomoco is right though about the left to right on the boom movement. if you do make a snap cut you gotta make sure the cuts are not too far apart otherwise the crane cannot cable up enough to break the cut free. 

i have seen booms move left or right to free wood ,while i was in the tree, but jomoco is right in saying that it isnt too cool to do.

next crane job i do i'll bring the cell phone with me and take a cut by cut picture sequence for you.

like a good foreman or boss, i wouldnt tell you to do something i dont have my full confidence in doing myself. that said, because what i say might get lost in translation while i type, i dont want you to get in trouble yourself.


pics for sure of the next crane job. cuts only!


----------



## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2008)

Just collecting different input myself- all good stuff certainly! Although when I get to use a crane again I think instinct will take over as usual- I've hung many a "crane sized" piece (effectively hung) right to the tree with my present methods, (by climbing) so I'm not too worried about this anymore (the how to make your cut thing). Its nice to have this conversation however, I've been sort of thinking about this stuff in my head+ doing research here and in the field for quite some time now. If I can hack off a huge tip tie/butt tie going horizonally with the pressure cramming the cut leader down onto the saw while cutting the last fibres clean- usually without pinching the saw- I guess thats probably easier. I love the old ways. No crane! Workie!! Rope cheap, crane expensive!! Lol.


----------



## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2008)

I've gotta finish pruning them big a$$ed Red Oaks I've been lucky enough to put off (due to mildly sprained ankle + rain), this job scares me soo much (from the labor intensive aspect) that I would love to be pointed around by a crane. lol. No spikes+ polesawing sucks- so much so that I bid each of these trees at 1500 to prune- they got bids and I still got it!!  After that Its bucket gravy and takedowns again so I guess just suck it up, lol. I'm gonna get batteries for my digi tomoro morning sinse It'll be a slow ground dog day- maybe if I get some good ones I'll figure out how to post them somehow.


----------



## masterarbor (Sep 28, 2008)

A lot of great pics!


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 28, 2008)

[email protected], I missed quite a bit today, didn't I?

I am ready Jomoco. If I said something the wrong way or just plain wrong thing to say, let me know.

I started this thread in the hopes to provide some safe information. And I will not take it personally anybody's attempt to clarify or correct me.

Tree work in general is dangerous, and when you add forces that contradict gravity.... That adds a new level of "WTF just happened!!!" to the game.

I appreciate the clarification on barberchairs. I mentioned them a couple of times and in my mind I meant both up and down. I now see it didn't translate well in black and white.

So far, I think this is turning into a good thread. I am learning..... and hopefully passing on some tips myself.

The day I quit learning... Is the day I should walk away from this work, and my other job too!! Because it is not only me that I will get hurt, and I couldn't live with that.

Be safe, (not just carefull, carefull still gets you hurt)

Fred


----------



## custom8726 (Sep 28, 2008)

oldirty said:


> yes and no.
> 
> like i said almost no pick is the same and you do need to put a relief cut somewhere. for me ,most times, my relief cut comes from the very start of the cut. and yes i try to cut from under the ball to the boom all in one smooth move......
> 
> ...





It varies, On vertical picks I will usually place the straps opposite each other, Like 12 & 6 O-clock with the boom at 9 O-clock. If you choose not to use a relief cut and prefer the pick to be pulled towards the boom place the straps at 1 & 5 with the boom at 9 and so on and so fourth. I have experiemented alot with strap placement but its hard to explain things over the computer for me and not to mention every tree is different, HENCE, the ability to be diverse is essential when using cranes for tree work on a regular basis. Some one mentioned a climber / Crane OP as the best combo of operator when doing tree work, I agree. Understanding the fundamentals of bolth is important. You will have to come down some day and check our operation out, I am sure we could learn a couple of things from one another, Well that is if your not to scared after your last play date I read abought, Lol!!


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> [/U][/B]
> 
> 
> You will have to come down some day and check our operation out, I am sure we could learn a couple of things from one another, Well that is if your not to scared after your last play date I read abought, Lol!!





brother you are a fulltime tree guy. you know whats what. that and the fact that you are in the game day in and out. it would be my pleasure to put some hours in with your company.


maybe soon before the winter hits....let me see how much vacation i got. sounds like a great idea.


----------



## Thillmaine (Sep 28, 2008)

but anyway with the "shelf" you want to make it side to side so the crane go boom left or right to break it free. you dont want to do that over under with the boom because then it turns into a nightmare for the CO to get it loose.


When I think of a crane I think of it like an excavator. THe strongest pull is always towards the mounting point. Side to side is your weakest link. On out crane, we have a plastic sheeve that the cable sits on, and pulling it side to side, side loads the sheave and will damage it. 
I am new to crane work as well but we do have a crane and I am trying to use more slings on tops after having some BIG cottonwood tops flip over on my first crane removal.
On wood, I always use the snap cut, using the clock analogy with the boom at 12. I put the chocker and ball on the 12 o'clock side. Start my cut at around 2 cut to about 8 and then square up to 4ish. THen I make a cut on the back side from 9- whenever the peice breaks off. 
As for laterals and othe cuts everyone is varied, notches and standiong peices up, sometimes cutting from the top down about 60 percent, tension the cable, then undercut.
I am also seeking tips, I jsut follow what the boss says, but I always feel like their is a better way. 
To me using a peice of have bull line would be the best thing for balancing peices. A running bowline on one end, and inline cloves hitch on the hook, and another clove hitch or running bowline on the other end. Besides weakning of the rope due to bend raidus and knot tying I see no problem with this, although have never used the technique.


----------



## custom8726 (Sep 28, 2008)

oldirty said:


> brother you are a fulltime tree guy. you know whats what. that and the fact that you are in the game day in and out. it would be my pleasure to put some hours in with your company.
> 
> 
> maybe soon before the winter hits....let me see how much vacation i got. sounds like a great idea.



Anytime, Just let me know. I never get to play ground man anymore or better yet I could set up something big to tag team. HMM, just read that back (BIG& TAG TEAM) does'nt come off quite right, but you get the point. Lol..

Seriously though from reading your posts in the past and seeing some pics of your work you seem to have the right attitude for the trade and the skills to back it up, So anytime I have the extra work load you are welcome to come down.


----------



## custom8726 (Sep 28, 2008)

Thillmaine said:


> but anyway with the "shelf" you want to make it side to side so the crane go boom left or right to break it free. you dont want to do that over under with the boom because then it turns into a nightmare for the CO to get it loose.
> 
> 
> When I think of a crane I think of it like an excavator. THe strongest pull is always towards the mounting point. Side to side is your weakest link. On out crane, we have a plastic sheeve that the cable sits on, and pulling it side to side, side loads the sheave and will damage it.
> ...



Funny so many people use snap cuts, I rarlely ever feel the need. If you have a doubt in your mind that top might flip either reposition your straps or where you are making your cut if possible if not use the butt tie technique. Relief cut, position the butt tie, make cut, If all is well pop the rope off the pick and away it goes if not your ground guy can gently allow the top to flip in a controlled manor. Hope I described that in a way it makes sense.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Seriously though from reading your posts in the past and seeing some pics of your work you seem to have the right attitude for the trade and the skills to back it up, So anytime I have the extra work load you are welcome to come down.





sounded like music to my ears when read it out loud....thanks man. thank you very much.

we are definitely going to set this up for sure. and soon.


----------



## jomoco (Sep 28, 2008)

Thillmaine said:


> but anyway with the "shelf" you want to make it side to side so the crane go boom left or right to break it free. you dont want to do that over under with the boom because then it turns into a nightmare for the CO to get it loose.
> 
> 
> When I think of a crane I think of it like an excavator. THe strongest pull is always towards the mounting point. Side to side is your weakest link. On out crane, we have a plastic sheeve that the cable sits on, and pulling it side to side, side loads the sheave and will damage it.
> ...



This thread is killing me! 

And it shocks me that the techniques a few of you guys have posted here haven't already hurt or killed the guys using them.

Any CO that rotates to break anything loose is an idiot that should be fired and lose his crane certification!

Any crane takedown climber should realize that maximum upper leverage of any crane stick pick is achieved by placing the choker on the pick at its farthest point away from the crane at 12 oclock, that would be the 6 oclock position. Not knowing that is unforgiveable in a crane scenario. The end of the boom where the cable comes off the pulley should be about 2 or 3 feet off center of the pick in the direction of the crane.

jomoco


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 28, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Funny so many people use snap cuts, I rarlely ever feel the need. If you have a doubt in your mind that top might flip either reposition your straps or where you are making your cut if possible if not use the butt tie technique. Relief cut, position the butt tie, make cut, If all is well pop the rope off the pick and away it goes if not your ground guy can gently allow the top to flip in a controlled manor. Hope I described that in a way it makes sense.



I agree. I don't care for anything snapping while using a crane.

If we have any doubts on the piece flipping we'll choke it where we know it will flip, make a wide scarf (so the hinge doesn't break untill we cut it) start the back cut and lower the piece with the crane untill it won't swing uncontrollably, finishing the cut and releasing the piece nice and smooth.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 28, 2008)

jomoco said:


> This thread is killing me!
> 
> And it shocks me that the techniques a few of you guys have posted here haven't already hurt or killed the guys using them.
> 
> ...



Like I have said (or hinted at) I don't like the crane to do anything but to adjust tension on the piece while I am watching the kerf to gauge if he is lifting too much and the piece is going to spring up or break on me.

When everything goes as planned, the pieces gently swing a little away from me (the cutter) and nothing bounces.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

thats why you are in this thread jo! say what needs to be said man.


so i am correct in saying it should be ball, wood, boom right? 

now you are adding to that by saying move the choker point a few feet off center from that?

is this to get a little bit of a twist as the pick is made?


bring what you know man!

and i gotta know. you directing that comment at me? 

lol


----------



## Blakesmaster (Sep 28, 2008)

Ball, wood, boom... I don't know OD. What are we talkin' about here?


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 28, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Forgot I prefer my 361 most of the time while doing crane work but often I end up with the 372 24" and on rare occasions the 394 36" I hate those days.



I prefer the 371 with 24", and I rareley use the dawgs after about 1/3 of the wood is cut. I keep the bar moving in and out (staying in the cut though) making it easier to watch what is going on.

Really is a shoulder workout when you have to top-chain with this method.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Ball, wood, boom... I don't know OD. What are we talkin' about here?



you are standing on the stem. 


(back to the clock!)

ball goes at 6 , wood, crane's boom at 12.

with you at 3 or 9. 

you dig?


----------



## Blakesmaster (Sep 28, 2008)

No, I follow OD, just trying to make a joke. Hard for me not to snicker when I see ball and wood in the same sentence. Yes, I know I'm immature.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 28, 2008)

I hear someone typing....


----------



## jomoco (Sep 28, 2008)

oldirty said:


> thats why you are in this thread jo! say what needs to be said man.
> 
> 
> so i am correct in saying it should be ball, wood, boom right?
> ...




Sorta OD, remember I'm talkin bout big vertical stick picks, and where to place the choke point on the stick in relation to the crane and pill, if the crane is at 12 oclock, the actual choke point on the pick should be at 6 oclock directlly opposite the crane. the pill shoud be 2-3 feet off the center of the pick straight towards the crane, this is to ensure that when the pick releases it moves away from you and towards the crane. As the pick moves away from you, a pro CO will always be booming up rather than spooling up with his puny little winch, not only does booming up get the pick away from you faster and towards the crane's center of gravity, it is also by far and away the more powerful maneuver.

If it's a real monster pick any where close to the cranes capacity, I'll cut a big vee at the top ring of the pick directly above the 6 oclock choke point, and thread the strap or steel choker through that vee and down to the pick choke point. This ensures the pick gets maximum leverage with no twist or dancing from the pick as it gently moves directly away from you and straight towards the cranes center of gravity.

That's exactly how I like to take big vertical picks as safely and smoothly as possible anyway.

Good luck guys!

jomoco


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 28, 2008)

jomoco said:


> Sorta OD, remember I'm talkin bout big vertical stick picks, and where to place the choke point on the stick in relation to the crane and pill, if the crane is at 12 oclock, the actual choke point on the pick should be at 6 oclock directlly opposite the crane. the pill shoud be 2-3 feet off the center of the pick straight towards the crane, this is to ensure that when the pick releases it moves away from you and towards the crane. As the pick moves away from you, a pro CO will always be booming up rather than spooling up with his puny little winch, not only does booming get the pick away from you and towards the crane's center of gravity, it is also by far and away the more powerful maneuver.
> 
> If it's a real monster pick any where close to the cranes capacity, I'll cut a big vee at the top ring of the pick directly above the 6 oclock choke point, and thread the strap or steel choker through that vee and down to the pick choke point. This ensures the pick gets maximum leverage with no twist or dancing from the pick as it gently moves directly away from you and straight towards the cranes center of gravity.
> 
> ...



What do you prefer? steel chokers or nylon straps?


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 28, 2008)

I agree on the boom up insted of winching. Moves it up and away from you instead of just up higher over your body.


----------



## jomoco (Sep 28, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> What do you prefer? steel chokers or nylon straps?



I personally prefer steel chokers Ghillie, that is unles I'm within close proximity to high power lines, at which point I use mushy stretchy icky nylon straps.

jomoco


----------



## randyg (Sep 29, 2008)

*I Don't Get It*

Whats all this talk about snap cutting and crane pulling sideways of being like a backhoe and able to pull towards crane???? Crane is designed to lift straight up and lower straight down PERIOD! NEVER shockload wire rope wether on a crane or othewise. If chance for sling tightening or limb twisting or rotating under load exists, use wire rope choker. It won't melt and fail.


----------



## treemandan (Sep 29, 2008)

There is no snapping in crane work. I have seen it done, one big rip all the way down.
As far as tops flipping? Well if the strap is in the middle and it flips its still the same distance right? worst is getting whipped by the tips but you can drop down. sometimes you have to let it flip, crane ain't tall enough or the end of the limb isn't strong enough. It usually flips while its being moved away anyway.
I can't say I ever had a problem with the angle cut, a notch, or just going right through using a crane. Now when I cut right through I use bark to keep the saw from pinching... so should you.
I think the 20's with an 18 inch bar are good for doing the tops then the 44.
I have tried to talk some operators into just using the hook to lower from. Nothing crazy but the jibs were not long enough to pick with really flipping. How about using the hook for the other side of a speedline? Keep in mind The Dan ain't gonna wreck no crane and shocking em ain't in the bargin either... anymore that is.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 29, 2008)

treemandan said:


> There is no snapping in crane work. I have seen it done, one big rip all the way down.
> As far as tops flipping? Well if the strap is in the middle and it flips its still the same distance right? worst is getting whipped by the tips but you can drop down. sometimes you have to let it flip, crane ain't tall enough or the end of the limb isn't strong enough. It usually flips while its being moved away anyway.
> I can't say I ever had a problem with the angle cut, a notch, or just going right through using a crane. Now when I cut right through I use bark to keep the saw from pinching... so should you.
> I think the 20's with an 18 inch bar are good for doing the tops then the 44.
> I have tried to talk some operators into just using the hook to lower from. Nothing crazy but the jibs were not long enough to pick with really flipping. How about using the hook for the other side of a speedline? Keep in mind The Dan ain't gonna wreck no crane and shocking em ain't in the bargin either... anymore that is.



Dan, I disagree (if I understand what you mean). If you need something in the kerf (bark or wedge) then something is wrong and you need to look and see what it is before you get a face full of wood.

If tensioning a little more or a little less doesn't fix the pinch, you're going to have a problem when it comes free.


----------



## treemandan (Sep 29, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> I agree on the boom up insted of winching. Moves it up and away from you instead of just up higher over your body.



winch first if you have to while cutting but boom up sucks it away. If one choker comes from the back to the hook, the side where you are cutting, the bottom comes at your face. In the front the top swings over you head. With 2 on the side it just goes. Keep that in mind if you ever really have a situation. One is usually fine.
I guess you guys mean notch when you say boxcut? I use that when winching limbs erect for the actuall pick. Never did no snapping. That angle cut comes off clean and in the direction you want it to go, gives a cradle and a place to duck. Quick to dole em out too. Just bim bam forget the boom. Before the angle cut I was stuck trying to be creative one half the time and burning up bars trying to blaze through in a single pass. Sure its nice to have the use of the peel for slowing it down but who the hell wants to slow down?


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 29, 2008)

treemandan said:


> winch first if you have to while cutting but boom up sucks it away. If one choker comes from the back to the hook, the side where you are cutting, the bottom comes at your face. In the front the top swings over you head. With 2 on the side it just goes. Keep that in mind if you ever really have a situation. One is usually fine.
> I guess you guys mean notch when you say boxcut? I use that when winching limbs erect for the actuall pick. Never did no snapping. That angle cut comes off clean and in the direction you want it to go, gives a cradle and a place to duck. Quick to dole em out too. Just bim bam forget the boom. Before the angle cut I was stuck trying to be creative one half the time and burning up bars trying to blaze through in a single pass. Sure its nice to have the use of the peel for slowing it down but who the hell wants to slow down?



I don't think so..... but I'm not sure what they are refering to when they say box cut.


----------



## jomoco (Sep 29, 2008)

treemandan said:


> There is no snapping in crane work. I have seen it done, one big rip all the way down.
> As far as tops flipping? Well if the strap is in the middle and it flips its still the same distance right? worst is getting whipped by the tips but you can drop down. sometimes you have to let it flip, crane ain't tall enough or the end of the limb isn't strong enough. It usually flips while its being moved away anyway.
> I can't say I ever had a problem with the angle cut, a notch, or just going right through using a crane. Now when I cut right through I use bark to keep the saw from pinching... so should you.
> I think the 20's with an 18 inch bar are good for doing the tops then the 44.
> I have tried to talk some operators into just using the hook to lower from. Nothing crazy but the jibs were not long enough to pick with really flipping. How about using the hook for the other side of a speedline? Keep in mind The Dan ain't gonna wreck no crane and shocking em ain't in the bargin either... anymore that is.



If you have a good CO Dan, there's a little trick I've used many times to get out of reach crane picks to within the crane's reach fairly quickly.

Just pick a point well within the cranes reach, then tie off completely onto the pill at that point, butt tie the tree together with appropriately sized steel or nylon chokers, make your cuts between the two chokers with absolutely no attachment between you and the tree, and signal the CO to boom you up as the cut lets go and all the bullride action we're all too familiar with starts in earnest with you calmly watching it from safe above on your pill.

It works great, and after everything settles down in the tree, simply reattach yourself to it and butt choke the leader now hanging straight down, and gently lift it way from your sneaky tricky self.

Works for me anyway!

jomoco


----------



## randyg (Sep 29, 2008)

treemandan said:


> There is no snapping in crane work. I have seen it done, one big rip all the way down.
> As far as tops flipping? Well if the strap is in the middle and it flips its still the same distance right? worst is getting whipped by the tips but you can drop down. sometimes you have to let it flip, crane ain't tall enough or the end of the limb isn't strong enough. It usually flips while its being moved away anyway.
> I can't say I ever had a problem with the angle cut, a notch, or just going right through using a crane. Now when I cut right through I use bark to keep the saw from pinching... so should you. I think the 20's with an 18 inch bar are good for doing the tops then the 44.
> I have tried to talk some operators into just using the hook to lower from. Nothing crazy but the jibs were not long enough to pick with really flipping. How about using the hook for the other side of a speedline? Keep in mind The Dan ain't gonna wreck no crane and shocking em ain't in the bargin either... anymore that is.





Why are you putting strap in the middle?


You talk like this happens often???? I will pray for you Dan. Nothing good can come from this behavior.

Dan, that kerf is trying to tell you what is about to happen when that pick comes free, don't put a sock in her mouth.


Let me guess, you like "livin on the edge", right?


----------



## randyg (Sep 29, 2008)

jomoco said:


> If you have a good CO Dan, there's a little trick I've used many times to get out of reach crane picks to within the crane's reach fairly quickly.
> 
> Just pick a point well within the cranes reach, then tie off completely onto the pill at that point, butt tie the tree together with appropriately sized steel or nylon chokers, make your cuts between the two chokers with absolutely no attachment between you and the tree, and signal the CO to boom you up as the cut lets go and all the bullride action we're all too familiar with starts in earnest with you calmly watching it from safe above on your pill.
> 
> ...




I pick a lot of 10 to 12 inch stuff in this fashion with my bucket truck (material handling boom). I like to place notch or undercut on bottom first. Then I use 18-20 foot piece of bull rope with eye spliced in one end. The limb that is going to swing gets choked, and other end gets "timberhitched" back to the tree. When swinging stops, I hook just under point where eye splice is choking, and when I lift up on limb, noose comes loose and lift right over the end of butt. Then timber hitch comes off in a flash.

I wonder how many would admit to using a "non-material handling boom" bucket truck to do crane work with. THAT should be another thread I spose.:greenchainsaw:


----------



## custom8726 (Sep 29, 2008)

jomoco said:


> If you have a good CO Dan, there's a little trick I've used many times to get out of reach crane picks to within the crane's reach fairly quickly.
> 
> Just pick a point well within the cranes reach, then tie off completely onto the pill at that point, butt tie the tree together with appropriately sized steel or nylon chokers, make your cuts between the two chokers with absolutely no attachment between you and the tree, and signal the CO to boom you up as the cut lets go and all the bullride action we're all too familiar with starts in earnest with you calmly watching it from safe above on your pill.
> 
> ...



Agreed, although if the crane can't reach it safely without the jib 9 out of 10 times it just gets done the old school way. When I started doing crane work though we had a small sign crane (ARLO) 100', While it did the job, it was out of its league to say the least, The method you described above was an essential trick to have in the bag when working beyond a safe reach or when working with a smaller crane. your other comment abought the steel chokers surprises me a little, I mean they are stroger no question but I find them bulky and hard to use as you are always trying to weave them without the cable poping out and smacking you. I have 3 various length sets of nylons specifically for crane use only. Most of the picks we make are at less then 1/3 there rated capacity. Now if I had the luxury of a 100 + toner to make some whole tree picks I believe I would opt for the steel but then again that will never happen, Even if I could pick the whole tree there would probably be no place to put it down 9 out of t 10 times anyhow.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 29, 2008)

i said box cut. 

i didnt know it was a felling cut.


box cut was explained to me but ive forgotten exactly how to describe it. i'll have an answer for you tomw.

and we did a sweet ass crane job today. full stick on all the picks over a store and between house in medford today.

i did bring my cell phone into the tree but i couldnt saw and take pics at the same time. ( i tried. lol)

i had to use just about every cut i know too. i feel like an ass though because i couldnt take any pics. sorry fellas.

hey ghillie. moe was there too. he said "too technical". lol. but i did tell the foreman that he is up next on an easier set of trees. so i will have pics for that.

i need a helmet cam. any one know where i can find one?


----------



## custom8726 (Sep 29, 2008)

oldirty said:


> i said box cut.
> 
> i didnt know it was a felling cut.
> 
> ...




Ebay's got a bunch of them.


----------



## oldirty (Sep 29, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> [/U][/B]
> 
> Ebay's got a bunch of them.




thanks.


----------



## tree MDS (Sep 29, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> [/U][/B]
> 
> Ebay's got a bunch of them.



Yeah! oldirty helmet cam!!!, lol.


----------



## Ghillie (Sep 29, 2008)

oldirty said:


> i said box cut.
> 
> i didnt know it was a felling cut.
> 
> ...



Keep on him. I'll be waiting on the pictures...... And the helmet cam vids!!

Sounds like if you talk him through it a couple of times he will get the feel of it.


----------



## treemandan (Sep 29, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Dan, I disagree (if I understand what you mean). If you need something in the kerf (bark or wedge) then something is wrong and you need to look and see what it is before you get a face full of wood.
> 
> If tensioning a little more or a little less doesn't fix the pinch, you're going to have a problem when it comes free.



I guess it I was plaaning on a straight shot all the way through and to leave a little holding peel the crane would rip off when I got the saw out. If I can get my saw out with out moving the crane its a little easier.


----------



## toddstreeservic (Sep 29, 2008)

*could have used a crane today*

A crane would have been handy today. We had a 115ft white pine take down where we had to lower everything. Took all day on a tree that could have been done with 3 picks from a crane. :monkey:


----------



## treemandan (Sep 29, 2008)

randyg said:


> Why are you putting strap in the middle?
> 
> 
> You talk like this happens often???? I will pray for you Dan. Nothing good can come from this behavior.
> ...



well yellow does not seem to be a good color for the screen.
Sometimes either the wood is not strong enough to put the strap higher or the crane is to short to reach.
Sorry to mislead but I try real hard not to let anything come off when I am cutting or not ready for it to. Just doing a full through backcut you leave something to rip and peel.
I usually stick with Hoadley's angle cut. It'll stay in the cradle real good. A lot of times I like to have a groundy ready with a tag line for the butt that he can run through an 8 and control himself. That's for twisted wierd stuff.
Thing about the angle cut I also find cool is that if you try to pick it and for some reason it don't want to go and you have to cut a little more is the the CO can put it back in its cradle. Usually with the angle cut you get it on the first shot and what is left holds enough for control and is easily broken off.


----------



## randyg (Sep 30, 2008)

treemandan said:


> *well yellow does not seem to be a good color for the screen.* Sometimes either the wood is not strong enough to put the strap higher or the crane is to short to reach.
> Sorry to mislead but I try real hard not to let anything come off when I am cutting or not ready for it to. Just doing a full through backcut you leave something to rip and peel.
> I usually stick with Hoadley's angle cut. It'll stay in the cradle real good. A lot of times I like to have a groundy ready with a tag line for the butt that he can run through an 8 and control himself. That's for twisted wierd stuff.
> Thing about the angle cut I also find cool is that if you try to pick it and for some reason it don't want to go and you have to cut a little more is the the CO can put it back in its cradle. Usually with the angle cut you get it on the first shot and what is left holds enough for control and is easily broken off.





Sorry bout using the yellow, was tryin to be clever by color coding. . .

My response to your post saying when cutting all the way through, you put a piece of bark in the kerf to keep from getting pinched and we should too???? 

Was


That kerf is tryin to tell you somethin about what the pick is goin to do when the cut is finished, don't put a sock in her mouth.


----------



## treemandan (Sep 30, 2008)

randyg said:


> Sorry bout using the yellow, was tryin to be clever by color coding. . .
> 
> My response to your post saying when cutting all the way through, you put a piece of bark in the kerf to keep from getting pinched and we should too????
> 
> ...



Yeah, warn me next time you are gonna do that so I can close my eyes, it went all super nova in here last time and I am out of visine.
That bark is like plasti- gauge, you can see it squish and the limb move, its just enough to get your saw out ... sometimes. Plasti-gauge is what is used to check crank and bearing clearance in engines. I was aplling the same principle. You have to be able to read the plasti- gauge before you hit the starter.


----------



## randyg (Sep 30, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Yeah, warn me next time you are gonna do that so I can close my eyes, it went all super nova in here last time and I am out of visine.
> That bark is like plasti- gauge, you can see it squish and the limb move, *its just enough to get your saw out ... sometimes. *Plasti-gauge is what is used to check crank and bearing clearance in engines. I was aplling the same principle. You have to be able to read the plasti- gauge before you hit the starter.





SO . . . Your saw is your plasti-guage then????? If it gets pinched, the CO opens the kerf. If the kerf opens, the CO closes it back up. This is how to fine-tune the pick so it barely moves as you finish the cut. 

You make every pick just float away from the tree and I GUARANTEE the crane opeator will say SOMETHING that will make your day.


----------



## treemandan (Sep 30, 2008)

randyg said:


> SO . . . Your saw is your plasti-guage then????? If it gets pinched, the CO opens the kerf. If the kerf opens, the CO closes it back up. This is how to fine-tune the pick so it barely moves as you finish the cut.
> 
> You make every pick just float away from the tree and I GUARANTEE the crane opeator will say SOMETHING that will make your day.



NO.... the bark is. I understand what went wrong. In the sentence you highlighted in red ,last time, the "...sometimes" is used in a way to mean " It is sometimes good to put some bark in there, sometimes not". I did say it was useful to omit the step you desribe above but with many things the situation gets what the situation warrants. 
So far I had 2 limbs flip on me. Didn't mean the first one and the second I just couldn't put the strap up on the bad wood plus I was afraid if the crane extened anymore it would break. It was Eddies crane. I knew that whatever I was cutting was going to be sucked away quick by this guy, he even thought his crane would break, infact it did break, was broke and still is. I hope there is never an accident.
Now while flipping this top I used the angle cut and cut it the way it was going to be sucked. By the time the top flip down it was 20 feet way. I noticed that the highest I could get the strap was right in the middle and the tips didn't fall below where the butt had been. It went over slow and really didn't budge the crane at all. I have the video.
One time I lowered a piece that was higher than the crane onto the crane hook then they took it.


----------



## randyg (Sep 30, 2008)

treemandan said:


> NO.... the bark is. I understand what went wrong. In the sentence you highlighted in red ,last time, the "...sometimes" is used in a way to mean " It is sometimes good to put some bark in there, sometimes not". I did say it was useful to omit the step you desribe above but with many things the situation gets what the situation warrants.
> So far I had 2 limbs flip on me. Didn't mean the first one and the second I just couldn't put the strap up on the bad wood plus I was afraid if the crane extened anymore it would break. It was Eddies crane. I knew that whatever I was cutting was going to be sucked away quick by this guy, he even thought his crane would break, infact it did break, was broke and still is. I hope there is never an accident.
> Now while flipping this top I used the angle cut and cut it the way it was going to be sucked. By the time the top flip down it was 20 feet way. I noticed that the highest I could get the strap was right in the middle and the tips didn't fall below where the butt had been. It went over slow and really didn't budge the crane at all. I have the video.
> One time I lowered a piece that was higher than the crane onto the crane hook then they took it.






You BROKE Eddies crane???


----------



## treemandan (Oct 1, 2008)

randyg said:


> You BROKE Eddies crane???



Naw man! It showed up like that. Its like 40 years old and in real bad shape. Someone should shut it down I am sorry to say.


----------



## oldirty (Oct 2, 2008)

*moe's first AC crane removal.*

guess who had himself a good day today. moe!

first it was running the rope for me over a pool and he did great. then came his shot on "the pill". again he did good. 

his victim was a sugar maple that developed a rather nasty case of rot about 1/2 way up the stem. no need for this tree to be saved, as it was too close for comfort to the house.

great effort today moe!


----------



## oldirty (Oct 2, 2008)

one proud moe!


and unbeknownst to bennyboy......


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 2, 2008)

Thanks for the "good job." Luckily the pics weren't better to show my horrible first cut....The second was way better though...


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 2, 2008)

OMFG, that stump pic couldn't be better...You can see my goofy self laughing in the backround, but the pic is even better than the original scene I saw!


----------



## Nailsbeats (Oct 2, 2008)

Nice job Moe, now that's what I like to see.


----------



## oldirty (Oct 2, 2008)

Moestavrn said:


> Thanks for the "good job." .



well you did do a good job, so that was in order.

and you recovered nicely from that little pinch. lol


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 3, 2008)

Nice job Moe!!!


----------



## Blakesmaster (Oct 3, 2008)

No offence OD, but you suck at pic taking. Best stick to cuttin' boss.


----------



## Blakesmaster (Oct 3, 2008)

Oh, and nice job, Moe.


----------



## oldirty (Oct 3, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> No offence OD, but you suck at pic taking. Best stick to cuttin' boss.



lol.

cell phone! 

but you are right. i need to re buy all the crap that got stolen out of my truck. havent really wanted to spend the same money twice, if you get my drift. 

soon.


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 3, 2008)

Thanks all...Can't wait to get another small one like that...


----------



## Nailsbeats (Oct 3, 2008)

Moestavrn said:


> Thanks all...Can't wait to get another small one like that...




That's what she said Moe.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## oldirty (Oct 3, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> That's what she said Moe.:hmm3grin2orange:



hey moe, you gonna take that "barack" from him?


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 3, 2008)

I don't even know how to respond to that "Barack" dude...My wife wouldn't say that, I'm Italian!


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 3, 2008)

Moestavrn said:


> I don't even know how to respond to that "Barack" dude...My wife wouldn't say that, I'm Italian!



Sooooooo.......... she has a "little" italian" in her?






























sorry...... but you left yourself open for that.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Oct 3, 2008)

Ohhhhhhh.....High'Oooooooooooooooooooo.


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Sooooooo.......... she has a "little" italian" in her?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





got this other dude i work with. he's full italian. he walks by me the other day as we are going to our personal vehicles and stinks from a day of work. i say to him "damn dude, you smell like a toasted italian sub heavy on the onions."

to which he says ..."oh ya..you wanna smell my hot italian sausage?" now imagine jeff spikoli saying that to you. 

lol


he won.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> got this other dude i work with. he's full italian. he walks by me the other day as we are going to our personal vehicles and stinks from a day of work. i say to him "damn dude, you smell like a toasted italian sub heavy on the onions."
> 
> to which he says ..."oh ya..you wanna smell my hot italian sausage?" now imagine jeff spikoli saying that to you.
> 
> ...



"Aloha, Mr. Hand"

LOL


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

thats him! hollywood is his work name. 

lol


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

yeah, he's totally a "buzzard"


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

ok well .... lets start a new topic. does any one stay tied in to the ball while maken a cut. instead on spiken into the tree with a buckstrap?. while worken off the crane.


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

I have "ridden the ball" before if the tree is real dead and doesn't seem safe to spike into. Not at the company I'm at now, they don't allow it. Its not really the thing to do its really dangerous and from my assumption its totally frowned apon.


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

yup i see what ur sayin.i was just wondering what people though about.i climben like that every day.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

Moestavrn said:


> I have "ridden the ball" before if the tree is real dead and doesn't seem safe to spike into. Not at the company I'm at now, they don't allow it. Its not really the thing to do its really dangerous and from my assumption its totally frowned apon.



Read post #60 in this thread.

There are ANSI approved methods to ride the ball. I don't believe OSHA permits it.

There are instances where it is considerably safer than climbing.


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

yes there is .i think its safer and the climber doesnt get as tired. and its a lot fasteri think. i can climb both was but i think stayin tied in is better


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

marquis#1 said:


> yes there is .i think its safer and the climber doesnt get as tired. and its a lot fasteri think. i can climb both was but i think stayin tied in is better



Have you looked at the post with recommended tie-in methods?

Do you use something similar?


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

Idk how I feel either way...I thinks can be easier to spike in, then the peice goes away, and you just chill and wait for the crane to come back...Basically just whatch the other guys work...Granted sometimes my calfs or ankle cramp cuz of the spikes, but its not that bad really. Just me being me, but I would wanna help the ground guys while down there before going back up if I rode the peice out. Plus if you tie in with a micro pulley and split tail, you can pop you line right out and still have ur knot in tact and ready to go. So I would just assume spike in and relax....We tie right into the ball, another place I worked we tied into a ring off the ball which was nice, but I know the ring is supposed to be connected above the ball, so that wasn't "legall" either. We also used shackles on the slings at that place instead of straight sling around the wood....

Marquis do you work for marquis tree? A really good friend of mine works there, Dave Gatsby


----------



## Nailsbeats (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> thats him! hollywood is his work name.
> 
> lol



Why does every workplace have to have a Hollywood??????????

I had one when I paved concrete highways, good guy, but a piece of work.

I take that back, thinking back I know he was involved in a lot of shiz on the side.


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

i use a 8.5 ton shackel in the becket. on the load line. i like comin down evry pick so i can help the ground guy. or whatever. . and yes i do work for marquis tree dave is a good guy and a good tree guy. but he hates me lol.


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Have you looked at the post with recommended tie-in methods?
> 
> Do you use something similar?




i went to the tci tree show and went to the crane class and all that stuff..


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

Idk how Oldirty feels, but I can't stand the kid...I had to work with him the other day just me and him. I climbed a Norway and thined it and he was cool, didn't bother me.....Then from lunch time on, at the second job where we met another crew he was just a totall peanut head. Everything he said aggrivated the hell outta me. He's a totall burnout dude. I know plenty of people who smoke, and used to myself, but I don't act like this idiot. Idk quite know why they call him Hollywood, cuz he had the name before I started, but I assume because when its warm out, and he takes off his shirt, he does a totall like hollywood slow motion like scene with his long hair blowing in the wind and shaking his head from side to side....Kinda like in movies when a hot girl gets outta the pool and does the head thing to throw the water around....So thats why I think he's hollywood....


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

marquis#1 said:


> i went to the tci tree show and went to the crane class and all that stuff..



So are there better methods to tie into the load line?


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

marquis#1 said:


> and yes i do work for marquis tree dave is a good guy and a good tree guy. but he hates me lol.



Dave is a tough dude to get along with, people either like him or hate him...He is a sick tree guy, and I'm not sayin that because I know him, he is just awesome around a tree...


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> So are there better methods to tie into the load line?




well it not want better its was safer.you need to be on the load line ever just to be lifted into the tree. never mind burning down every pick


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

marquis#1 said:


> well it not want better its was safer.you need to be on the load line ever just to be lifted into the tree. never mind burning down every pick




Translation?


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 5, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Translation?



X2


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

haha sry. u need to be tied into the load line to be lifted into a tree with a crane, at all times. u should not just be on the hook!


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

marquis#1 said:


> haha sry. u need to be tied into the load line to be lifted into a tree with a crane, at all times. u should not just be on the hook!



We use a shackle above the ball with a false crotch through the shackle.


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

thats good.


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

in all the places i have worked i have never seen this shackle. give me the hook man, its only a short ride i'm taking on it. 

the wood isnt that big around here. if i am taking something out and i have to ride out with it. it wont be that big. lol


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

According to ANSI, a "qualified arborist" can stay tied in to the load line while a load is being lifted if there is no other suitable tie-in point to transfer to.


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

and as far as stayen tied in every pick i think its better becouse im on the crane every day and i dont use a bucket. i try do find the fastest way to climb.


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

if you are their main climber then i gotta say you got an pretty good life over there. you guys ROLL down the road for sure. sweet lineup ive seen. you guys have your own crane?


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> in all the places i have worked i have never seen this shackle. give me the hook man, its only a short ride i'm taking on it.
> 
> the wood isnt that big around here. if i am taking something out and i have to ride out with it. it wont be that big. lol



OD, I just don't like it when my rope or strap can come out of the hook if the weight is removed.

I use locking caribiners on the false crotch so that I can unhook pretty quickly.

Call me chicken if you want, I just like the extra insurance of a positive lock on my rope.


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

i came from the low and worked my way up.we have a couple climbers . we just bought a 38ton


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> OD, I just don't like it when my rope or strap can come out of the hook if the weight is removed.
> 
> I use locking caribiners on the false crotch so that I can unhook pretty quickly.
> 
> Call me chicken if you want, I just like the extra insurance of a positive lock on my rope.



not calling you a chicken at all bud. this shackle stuff has never been implemented anywhere i have been off the ball. so i cant comment on it. if it was used i'd use it for sure. take a pic of your setup and i'll see if i can get it over to where i work now. every little bit helps man. till then though. lol

we do have a snap lock on the ball but we dont screw the lock closed, its spring loaded.


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> OD, I just don't like it when my rope or strap can come out of the hook if the weight is removed.
> 
> I use locking caribiners on the false crotch so that I can unhook pretty quickly.
> 
> Call me chicken if you want, I just like the extra insurance of a positive lock on my rope.




safer is better.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> in all the places i have worked i have never seen this shackle. give me the hook man, its only a short ride i'm taking on it.
> 
> the wood isnt that big around here. if i am taking something out and i have to ride out with it. it wont be that big. lol


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

marquis#1 said:


> i came from the low and worked my way up.we have a couple climbers . we just bought a 38ton



havent seen it on the road yet. just the buckets and chip trucks and nice biiig chippers. 

out of lexington right?


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

Ghillie said:


>



lol.


i actually have that shackle sitting in my truck and a friction saver like that in the climbing bag. who knew? looks like i gotta put that on tomw.

edit: thanks big fella


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

yup... what company do u work for?


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

Yeah Dave told me you guys were buying a crane he was pumped....What do you guys call him over there...His nickname is "Cannon" around us...


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> not calling you a chicken at all bud. this shackle stuff has never been implemented anywhere i have been off the ball. so i cant comment on it. if it was used i'd use it for sure. take a pic of your setup and i'll see if i can get it over to where i work now. every little bit helps man. till then though. lol
> 
> we do have a snap lock on the ball but we dont screw the lock closed, its spring loaded.



Sorry if I came off sounding tense..... I meant to put a smiley after that!! 

We basically do the same as in the picture unless we are just going for a quick ride to get into the tree and stay there.

Then I put locking caribiners on the false crotch so I can unhook without having to run my line out of the false crotch.


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

Yeah that would be nicer...Considering my stupid self got my line pinched last time...I could still pull it out with some strength behind it, but that setup would resolve that problem...


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> lol.
> 
> 
> i actually have that shackle sitting in my truck and a friction saver like that in the climbing bag. who knew? looks like i gotta put that on tomw.


 
thats a good set up i ues a load link on the line and a shackel on that so im up closer to the ball so i can take the slings off if i half to


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

Moestavrn said:


> Yeah Dave told me you guys were buying a crane he was pumped....What do you guys call him over there...His nickname is "Cannon" around us...




y do u guys call him that? ijust call him new dave. cuz we have 3 daves.


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

marquis#1 said:


> yup... what company do u work for?




we are out of woburn. white trucks green chippers.


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

Idk why we call him that really, I met him through my cousin who's his roomate, so thats all I've known Dave as...


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

marquis#1 said:


> thats a good set up i ues a load link on the line and a shackel on that so im up closer to the ball so i can take the slings off if i half to



what do you mean by this? you cant reach the straps from the hook?


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> we are out of woburn. white trucks green chippers.




company name?


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

pm me if you want.


hey moe. nice sig line. lol


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

Dirty dude, I almost got smoked by my 372 today flushing a poplar stump from a tree I one cut today....Idk how or why but it was cuttin sick since you touched it up and I was standing behind the trigger, luckily, cuz it snapped back then cut fine, i think its because it was rotted in the middle, and one half broke free and caused it to land on the chain or something, idk, made me "barack" in my pants a little...


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> what do you mean by this? you cant reach the straps from the hook?




if u use . crotch saver. ur kinda low. i like to be close to the ball. just in case. i use slings with shackels. so i dont really take the slings of the hook. to much


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

Yeah I used to like the shackle option on the slings as well..


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

I would think being that close to the crotch saver you wouldn't have much room for your hands between the rope if for some reason you would have to grab your line...Wouldn't you get rope burn or not be able to get your fingers between the two ends of the line? Maybe I am wrong, just an assumption...Don't know why you would have to go up or grab ur running end of the line, but just a thought....Okay everyone crap on me now...


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

Moestavrn said:


> Dirty dude, I almost got smoked by my 372 today flushing a poplar stump from a tree I one cut today....Idk how or why but it was cuttin sick since you touched it up and I was standing behind the trigger, luckily, cuz it snapped back then cut fine, i think its because it was rotted in the middle, and one half broke free and caused it to land on the chain or something, idk, made me "barack" in my pants a little...





careful bud. i told you she was sharp now. lol. thats why good grip and posture is key.

i take it you were letting the saw pull through the wood? grip that handle bar like it owes you money. that'll ensure a good working grip. be glad you were not torquing on it because it was dull. that mightve kicked it harder.

believe me man. ive "barack"ed myself on the job a few times......you've been there. (i'm thinking too much coffee....) be careful moe!


lol


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

Moestavrn said:


> I would think being that close to the crotch saver you wouldn't have much room for your hands between the rope if for some reason you would have to grab your line...Wouldn't you get rope burn or not be able to get your fingers between the two ends of the line? Maybe I am wrong, just an assumption...Don't know why you would have to go up or grab ur running end of the line, but just a thought....Okay everyone crap on me now...




i like to be just under the ball.depending on what im doin


----------



## Blakesmaster (Oct 5, 2008)

If the crane doesn't have or a shackle is not a available do you guys see any issue wrapping the false crotch right around the cable the same as you would on a spar? As long as it's short enough not to slip over the pill when wrapped, obviously. Or what about tossing a locking biner on the cable and running either the false crotch/friction saver through that? Or even just running your line through the biner, wouldn't that work? Sorry guys, thinking while I type.


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

i think you are onto something about the friction saver putting the lines close together moe. 

hmmmm.



you are under the ball regardles of what you are doing on the crane, no? i mean when not limb walking to the cut mind you.

anyway, seeing how i got the stuff i am going to set it up tomw. maybe put some wire through the shackle bolt to hold her in place too. extra safe then!


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

a biner is fine as long as it a riggin one that locks.but i like shackels better


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> hey moe. nice sig line. lol



i see you've added to it.......lets be honest with the others now. you were in the tree. 

lol


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> If the crane doesn't have or a shackle is not a available do you guys see any issue wrapping the false crotch right around the cable the same as you would on a spar? As long as it's short enough not to slip over the pill when wrapped, obviously. Or what about tossing a locking biner on the cable and running either the false crotch/friction saver through that? Or even just running your line through the biner, wouldn't that work? Sorry guys, thinking while I type.



You have to be carefull how you load a biner, they lose a lot of strength when they are side loaded and not inline with their spine.

I wouldn't use a biner IMHO.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

Moestavrn said:


> I would think being that close to the crotch saver you wouldn't have much room for your hands between the rope if for some reason you would have to grab your line...Wouldn't you get rope burn or not be able to get your fingers between the two ends of the line? Maybe I am wrong, just an assumption...Don't know why you would have to go up or grab ur running end of the line, but just a thought....Okay everyone crap on me now...



It works just the same as using a "crotch saver"  in a tree. It has never been an issue for me as of yet.

(are you talking about athletic cups or tree gear?)


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> You have to be carefull how you load a biner, they lose a lot of strength when they are side loaded and not inline with their spine.
> 
> I wouldn't use a biner IMHO.



gonna be devil's advocate here on this ghillie... even if its a steel twist locking biner rated at 72kn's?


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> i think you are onto something about the friction saver putting the lines close together moe.
> 
> hmmmm.
> 
> ...




I am interested in hearing what you come up with OD. Borrow a camera if you have to! :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

Yeah I was in the tree, polesawing, and it was windy ass hell...The tree was in HORRIBLE shape, and I just wanted to get the hell down...So I went totall HACK style and just cut and let fly....I was totally a hack on it, I just didn't wanna be up there anymore...My bad....


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> gonna be devil's advocate here on this ghillie... even if its a steel twist locking biner rated at 72kn's?




If you take into account how much strength you lose with the side loading...

Give me a few minutes and I'll see if I can come up with some hard data and drawings.

I was shocked myself when I first saw the numbers.


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

I'll bring my camera in tomorrow, if I'm not with you OD, I'll just give it to you...I only mentioned the line thing, cuz I have had to move up a step or two because I tied in too low when he brought me up, and figured if ur that close to the Saver, u lose that option...


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> If you take into account how much strength you lose with the side loading...
> 
> Give me a few minutes and I'll see if I can come up with some hard data and drawings.
> 
> I was shocked myself when I first saw the numbers.




"back to the lab!" yell's the mad scientist, dr strangeghillie.


----------



## Blakesmaster (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> gonna be devil's advocate here on this ghillie... even if its a steel twist locking biner rated at 72kn's?



That's all I use. Something I either heard or read about aluminum biners on steel D rings being bad. I could be off on this though. Anyway, the Linemen's supply around the corner only carries one steel biner. My wallet hurts.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> gonna be devil's advocate here on this ghillie... even if its a steel twist locking biner rated at 72kn's?



Here is a link to some spec's for a 40 kn biner. It's an auto locker but take a look at the ratings and especially in the WARNING box.

It loses 30 kn when side loaded and 28kn if the gate is open.

And they show in the warning box it being loaded with side pressure from a rock. That is pretty close to how I imagine it on the load line of a crane ball.

'Biners are really pretty fragile if not taken care of and loaded correctly.


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 5, 2008)

I am more nervous than most up in trees, but 72 KNs, even if it brings it down to 20KN's, its gonna hold my 130lbs....I mean hell those little beaners you buy to hold keys say "not for climbing" on the other side they say they hold 150lbs....TECHNICALLY, at 130, they would hold me, I would never trust or use one of those for anything other than stupid things, but seriously, safety is first, even with the rating drop, I'm sure it would be fine...But maybe I am wrong...


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

i hope you are not wrong.....you are the guinea pig for the new crane tie in system!


----------



## oldirty (Oct 5, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Here is a link to some spec's for a 40 kn biner. It's an auto locker but take a look at the ratings and especially in the WARNING box.
> 
> It loses 30 kn when side loaded and 28kn if the gate is open.
> 
> ...



seriously though, i am thinking the shackle and FS look best. thanks ghillie for the info


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 5, 2008)

ur better off with the 50kn biner


----------



## Nailsbeats (Oct 5, 2008)

Shackle w/safety wire and Friction Saver is how I'm gonna roll if I get that silo job. Still waiting.

Double biners on the FS for the quick detach too.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 6, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Shackle w/safety wire and Friction Saver is how I'm gonna roll if I get that silo job. Still waiting.
> 
> Double biners on the FS for the quick detach too.



That's the way to roll.....


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 6, 2008)

oldirty said:


> "back to the lab!" yell's the mad scientist, dr strangeghillie.






ROFLMFAO!!!!!

Thanks OD, that made my day!!!


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 6, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> That's all I use. Something I either heard or read about aluminum biners on steel D rings being bad. I could be off on this though. Anyway, the Linemen's supply around the corner only carries one steel biner. My wallet hurts.



I know aluminum biners on steel sheaves of pulleys are bad.

I try to stay with steel on steel but what about the attachment points on your harness?

I would think that a round steel surface would do negligable damage to an aluminum biner.


----------



## Blakesmaster (Oct 6, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> I know aluminum biners on steel sheaves of pulleys are bad.
> 
> I try to stay with steel on steel but what about the attachment points on your harness?
> 
> I would think that a round steel surface would do negligable damage to an aluminum biner.



It never really made too much sense to me either and I feel like a dope for not looking further into it but I figured erring on the side of safety to be a good idea.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 6, 2008)

oldirty said:


> gonna be devil's advocate here on this ghillie... even if its a steel twist locking biner rated at 72kn's?



To be honest, I have used a steel screw lock 50 kn 'biner.

I don't like doing it though. I also pay close attention to how the gates close on all my 'biners.

I have a few aluminum ones that I've retired because the gate was rubbing on the pin hook when you closed it. After closer inspection, I saw a "dent" in the screw lock where it had been side loaded.

Things like that indicate the spine has been tweeked and not in a good way.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 6, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> It never really made too much sense to me either and I feel like a dope for not looking further into it but I figured erring on the side of safety to be a good idea.



HHHMMMMMMMmm...... BACK TO THE LAB!!! muahhahahahahah!!!!

Seriously though, that is a question I have thought about before also but put it low on the list of things to look into.

But it still is on the list.

+1 on erring on the safe side!


----------



## Blakesmaster (Oct 6, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> HHHMMMMMMMmm...... BACK TO THE LAB!!! muahhahahahahah!!!!
> 
> Seriously though, that is a question I have thought about before also but put it low on the list of things to look into.
> 
> ...



Waiting for the link, Mr. Scientist!


----------



## Nailsbeats (Oct 6, 2008)

I watch my aluminum biners hard and try not to run them consistently on steel. I like steel on steel. I am a fab man and when steel and aluminum collide steel always wins. The aluminum is hardened though to take some abrasion.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 6, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Waiting for the link, Mr. Scientist!



I wouldn't wait up too long...

I just did a couple of quick searches through my stuff and on the net and came up with nothing.

I'll keep looking but not tonight.

(and just scientist is fine with me... MR. Scientist was my dad!! LOL)


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 6, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> I watch my aluminum biners hard and try not to run them consistently on steel. I like steel on steel. I am a fab man and when steel and aluminum collide steel always wins. The aluminum is hardened though to take some abrasion.



That brings up another point. When the anodizing gets chipped or worn through, it leaves a sharp edge that wears on ropes. 

I take them out of rotation in cases like that.


----------



## Blakesmaster (Oct 6, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> I wouldn't wait up too long...
> 
> I just did a couple of quick searches through my stuff and on the net and came up with nothing.
> 
> ...



Gotcha. It's about that time for me as well. Girl's lookin' a bit antsy on the other side of the room.


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 6, 2008)

Whats a matter with just tying into the ball? I mean if you check for abrasions on the hook, have a mechanically sound clip on the hook and keep a concious mind on the angle of your climbing line VS the clip position its pretty darn safe IMHO.. I know I will get flamed for this opinion and I am not saying the alternative methods are bad but I do not think they are any safer. Once your straps are set do you guys let the crane tension the straps before you come down to make your cut? Once the straps have tension on them and your climbing line is behind the straps on the hook it really does not matter what angle your climbing line is at or what direction the hook is facing your climbing line cant come past the straps. How many potential abrasions does your climbing strap have by tying in above the ball? Not to mention if you do not wire the clevis shut you risk the chance of the shackle coming on- screwed. If I am trusting that hook to lift 3k-10k over my head I think I can trust it to hold my 175lbs. I guess if I devised a system that I felt was safer to tye in above the ball then the crane hook and gave it some time to get comfortable with, I would convert for ANSI/OSHA sakes but for know I am a little bias't to what has worked for me for the last 11 years.


----------



## limbwalker54 (Oct 6, 2008)

In regard to the aluminum vs. steel.... Aluminum will react in a negative way with steel due to the composition...I.E. they react by corroding each other. Since the reaction can occur at a microscopic level, the aluminum can deteriorate and weaken. A catastrophic failure could occur. While this is not likely for the amount of time the gear stays together on a job, time and time again when they touch, the reaction can keep occurring......

However....

If someone on here can give me an occassion when this has truly caused a problem and it was linked to aluminum/steel corrosion, that would be great. 


In regard to tying in above the ball: I never have liked the idea of being on the "business" end of the crane, IE The Hook. I have tied in above the ball just how Gerstenberger described in TCIA magazine for every crane job. I feel you have more mobility and you are above the plane that the straps or cables are attached with your tie in point. Somehow I feel that tying in on the hook could be REALLY bad business if something should go wrong. I want to be able to get out of dodge quickly if something moves the wrong way, and getting my climbing line caught in a strap on a hook in that situation could prove detrimental to my health........


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 6, 2008)

limbwalker54 said:


> In regard to the aluminum vs. steel.... Aluminum will react in a negative way with steel due to the composition...I.E. they react by corroding each other. Since the reaction can occur at a microscopic level, the aluminum can deteriorate and weaken. A catastrophic failure could occur. While this is not likely for the amount of time the gear stays together on a job, time and time again when they touch, the reaction can keep occurring......
> 
> However....
> 
> ...




If you use a shackle above the ball to tie in and something happens below the ball what do you think is going to happen? The cable is strung through the ball and then clamped back together, If the cable came out, The ball, hook, and the clevis you are tied into would all come off together. I don't really understand the logic regarding being able to move faster being tied in above. What are you moving fast from? I am never tied into the ball at the time a pick is being made so what would I be moving away from? I always let the crane winch up as I stay put near the straps making sure they are cinching up properly before I come down to make my cut and never have a problem with my line getting tangled or caught in the straps. As long as the straps are positioned properly in front of the climbing line you do not get pinched.


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 6, 2008)

there is 2 thing. u need to be on the load line above the ball. and u need a locking shackel. and thats that . that is the safest way


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 6, 2008)

marquis#1 said:


> there is 2 thing. u need to be on the load line above the ball. and u need a locking shackel. and thats that . *that is the safest way*




Says who? Not many crane manufacturers will recomend any weight or persons to be tied in there.


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 6, 2008)

Almost NO crane manufacturers will even be ok with doing tree work with a crane do to Shock loading....Its a judgement and comfartability call...


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 6, 2008)

Moestavrn said:


> Almost NO crane manufacturers will even be ok with doing tree work with a crane do to Shock loading....Its a judgement and comfartability call...



Ok then, but who makes the call on tying in above the ball being safer then? ANSI?, OSHA? I hear every safety regulation is designed and or named after (OR BECAUSE OF) some one injured or dead not following OSHA/ANSI reg. So if thats the case show me where the proof is. Not trying to argue just trying to understand how its safer in real life circumstances and not because some ones sister, brothers, cousin, nephew, had an accident while not being tied in above the ball. I consider the manufacturers of these cranes to be more knowledgable on there limitations then a pencil pusher behind a desk reading the internet and making new regulations based on un-circumstantial evidence. But hey Ive been wrong before.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 6, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Ok then, but who makes the call on tying in above the ball being safer then? ANSI?, OSHA? I hear every safety regulation is designed and or named after (OR BECAUSE OF) some one injured or dead not following OSHA/ANSI reg. So if thats the case show me where the proof is. Not trying to argue just trying to understand how its safer in real life circumstances and not because some ones sister, brothers, cousin, nephew, had an accident while not being tied in above the ball. I consider the manufacturers of these cranes to be more knowledgable on there limitations then a pencil pusher behind a desk reading the internet and making new regulations based on un-circumstantial evidence. But hey Ive been wrong before.



Are you asking if ANSI or OSHA has a recommendation?

Where have you read a crane manufacturer's recommedation on tying in to the hook?


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 6, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Are you asking if ANSI or OSHA has a recommendation?
> 
> Where have you read a crane manufacturer's recommedation on tying in to the hook?



No, I am not asking what ANSI or OSHA recomends. I know the recomended method is above the ball by regulation. I just want to understand what there basis is on it. 

I have not read of a crane manufacturer recomending tying into the hook. But I have read about them *NOT* recomending tying in above the ball on many occasions. The manufacturers are usually a little vague on these subjects because of the obvious liability issues involved. I am not trying to convince anyone to tie into the hook because I do, quit the opposite actually. Convince me why its better and or safer to tie in above, by example not just because someone decided to put regulations on it.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 6, 2008)

What kind of caribiners do you use in your climbing systems?


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 6, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> What kind of caribiners do you use in your climbing systems?



A couple different variations for my lanyards (2) but nothing on my climbing line just a simple old taught line 90% of the time.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 6, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> A couple different variations for my lanyards (2) but nothing on my climbing line just a simple old taught line 90% of the time.



What type do you use on your lanyards?

Do you use a helmet or a hardhat when at height?

What do you use to attach your climbing line to your harness/saddle?

Do you use a split-tail?

I am just trying to make sure the picture you are trying to paint is the one that I am seeing in my mind.


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 6, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> What type do you use on your lanyards?
> 
> Do you use a helmet or a hardhat when at height?
> 
> ...



1. I as well as my employees all wear hard hats while on the job at height or not.

2.Clove hitch

3. No

What kind of picture are you painting? Look at some of my threads for pics of my company and some jobs we do that should help your picture painting.


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 6, 2008)

Petzl carabiners on my steel cord lanyard and I forget what kind are on my other non steel corded lanyard its about 6 years old now. 

Missed that question.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 6, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> 1. I as well as my employees all wear hard hats while on the job at height or not.
> 
> 2.Clove hitch
> 
> ...



I assumed that you and your employees wore head protection. I was asking if you use helmets instead of hardhats when you are at height.

Re-read what I said. I am not painting anything. I want to see the big picture of the whole set-up that you are using.

What you are using to tie in to the crane not just where you are tying in.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 7, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Petzl carabiners on my steel cord lanyard and I forget what kind are on my other non steel corded lanyard its about 6 years old now.
> 
> Missed that question.



Sorry, I meant what type. Not what Mfg.

Auto-locking, screw-lock or non-locking?


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 7, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> I assumed that you and your employees wore head protection. I was asking if you use helmets instead of hardhats when you are at height.
> 
> Re-read what I said. I am not painting anything. I want to see the big picture of the whole set-up that you are using.
> 
> What you are using to tie in to the crane not just where you are tying in.



No on the helmets, Just hard hats and clip on walkies when working with the crane. I would love to get a few of those peltor helmets with the built in 2 ways but there pricey so I am dragging my feet a bit.

Its late, Maybe I am missing what you are getting at.


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 7, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Sorry, I meant what type. Not what Mfg.
> 
> Auto-locking, screw-lock or non-locking?



Definetly no non-locking beeners for life lines!!

I am using a double auto locking beener on 1 and a single auto lock on the other.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 7, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Definetly no non-locking beeners for life lines!!
> 
> I am using a double auto locking beener on 1 and a single auto lock on the other.



Does the clip on your hook have a positive lock on it? Or is it spring loaded?


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 7, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Does the clip on your hook have a positive lock on it? Or is it spring loaded?



2 of the cranes we lease use the spring loaded while one uses a positive lock. I prefer the spring loaded.


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 7, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Definetly no non-locking beeners for life lines!!I am using a double auto locking beener on 1 and a single auto lock on the other.





custom8726 said:


> 2 of the cranes we lease use the spring loaded while one uses a positive lock. I prefer the spring loaded.



Why do you only use a positve locking caribiner but hook your whole system into a device that doesn't have a positive lock on it?


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 7, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> Why do you only use a positve locking caribiner but hook your whole sytem into a device that doesn't have a positive lock on it?



I figured that was coming. When I climb my eyes are not always on my lanyard caribiners and non locking beeners can obviously work there way open so locking is the only option on that. As far as the crane clip if you read my previous post'*s* I explained in detail how to avoid any potential problems with your climbing line coming out. You are right on what you are implying but for every risk associated with the way I prefer VS what I assume you prefer I can think of an equally dangerous situation that could arrise. Perhaps you could post a pic of your current set up? I am pretty sure I can paint the picture already but non the less lets see it. Have you ever tyed into the hook directly? I would assume if you have been in the bizz for awhile you have, so what convinced you to change your set up?


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 7, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> I figured that was coming. When I climb my eyes are not always on my lanyard caribiners and non locking beeners can obviously work there way open so locking is the only option on that. As far as the crane clip if you read my previous post'*s* I explained in detail how to avoid any potential problems with your climbing line coming out. You are right on what you are implying but for every risk associated with the way I prefer VS what I assume you prefer I can think of an equally dangerous situation that could arrise. Perhaps you could post a pic of your current set up? I am pretty sure I can paint the picture already but non the less lets see it. Have you ever tyed into the hook directly? I would assume if you have been in the bizz for awhile you have, so what convinced you to change your set up?



If you had read my posts, you would have seen this picture.







The only thing I changed was to use steel screw-lock caribiners on both rings of the false crotch with the barrels screwed down in the locked position.

The things that made me uncomfortable and wanting for a better method of tying in was too many times seeing small branches opening the clip on the hook, didn't like my rope/lanyard being trapped by cable chokers and when using nylon straps, I don't like moving rope running across stationary straps.

I cannot think of any bad situation that would end in injury using the shackle/line method and not in the hook tie-in method.

I can see a strap or choker locking your rope on the hook and not allowing you to adjust your position out of harms way.


----------



## randyg (Oct 8, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> If you had read my posts, you would have seen this picture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Does this mean that you then run your climbing line through the biners, and not through the rings?

The CO may loose sight of you at times. . .I was being lowered through the canopy once and landed at the choke point and deflected the ball with my hand as I watched it continue on down past me. When it got between my knee and foot I dove after it, thinking that would be better than getting snatched off by a 300pound ball? Talk about an adrenalin rush. That TIP has got to be bullet proof. I use a twisted clevis and replaced the pin with a grade 8 bolt and a nut with platsic insert. Snugged up with a wrench on the ground, I have no fear. ( I highly recommend wireing the pin if using one to ensure it does not back out.) I've had trouble pulling my friction saver from flat clevis, so got twisted one and LOVE it.

Always learnin though. . .Thanks for all the continued input.


----------



## marquis#1 (Oct 8, 2008)

ansi says if thats the safest way to do it. meanind bein tied to the crane. then do so! the ball on my crane says. if ur are lifting and people with the crane you must have a locking clip on the hook


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 8, 2008)

Any advice Jomoco?


----------



## jomoco (Oct 8, 2008)

I'm going to carefully jump back into this thread because I got somewhat bent out of shape on this very issue of the safest tie in point on the ball and hook, and rather than argue with you guys I went straight to the ansi committee members themselves, going so far as to send each of them the following letter in march of 07.



My fellow tree industry associates,

The ambiguity of the current ANSI Z133 standards for crane use in the tree industry are in my opinion unnecessarily confusing and frustrating to a large degree.

Current OSHA standards for cranes that lift personnel in man baskets located in the rigging section of 5004 clearly state that all crane hooks shall have a positive locking device on the hook gate to prevent accidents.

This is a clearly stated easy to understand Osha regulation that warrants emulation in the ANSI Z133 section for safe crane use in the tree industry.

The current Z standards fuzzy language about tying in above the ball with a shackle for the climbing line and a lanyard in the hook is in effect impractical, frustrating and to some degree hazardous.

Crane hook and block assemblies incorporate a swivel mechanism for a very good reason, to keep their loads from spinning when the twisted wire rope cable comes under any degree of load as they always do. The swivel mechanisn prevents this spinning action from transferring to the hook and load being lifted to a large degree.

If a climber is tied in above the ball and snugs up the rigging he sets on the pick, the ball and cable will spin, this results in his climbing line tangling at that point, he loses time and experiences frustration untangling his primary support line.

By adopting the current OSHA standard for man basket attachment that requires a positive locking hook gate, and applying it to the ANSI Z standard with the simple proviso that a locking shackle or closed solid loop ( both of which are currently available on the market ) be used on the locked hook to separate his primary support line from any possible damage by the rigging hardware on the hook.

Adopting this method and putting it in clear ( shall ) language in the Z standards will enhance safety, facilitate easy understanding and lessen frustration for the professionals in our industry that go out of their way to play by the rules.

It is further my opinion that any crane being used in tree operations, whether hoisting personnel or not shall have a locking hook gate to prevent rigging hardware from inadvertently coming off the hook and injuring personnel below, be it climber or groundmen.

Your thoughts and feedback on adopting these safety measures would be greatly appreciated.

Respectfully,

Jomoco
33 year tree industry veteran

[end letter]

In subsequent talks with a few of these ansi folks since that letter from me was entered into the minutes of their last meeting on this subject, they have cautioned me to be patient and understanding that each member is completely petrified from the thought of them changing the standard and a fatal accident occurring, something which to date has not happened.

They have taken my recommendations under consideration and wish to move for improvement in this standard, but only after a firm consensus on the matter can be reached.

So until that time, hundreds of frustrated climbers working to ansi standards can only watch helplessly as the crane spools up to snug the choker on the pick, and the climbers tie in point above the ball spins like a weed whacker tangling his body line, and causing an unnecessary dang nuisance,....not!

jomoco


----------



## oldirty (Oct 8, 2008)

jomoco said:


> So until that time, hundreds of frustrated climbers working to ansi standards can only watch helplessly as the crane spools up to snug the choker on the pick, and the climbers tie in point above the ball spins like a weed whacker tangling his body line, and causing an unnecessary dang nuisance,....not!
> 
> jomoco



suddenly not in a hurry to put that shackle i have on....


----------



## jomoco (Oct 8, 2008)

oldirty said:


> suddenly not in a hurry to put that shackle i have on....



The method that I currently use employs a solid oval 5/8ths steel ring on the hook first, then a large 3/4 steel clevice with my rigging choker on the hook next, then I lock the hook gate with a bolt, wrench tightened.

I point the gateside/rigging/clevis side at the pick, snug up the choker by signaling the CO to spool up, when all is snug and proper I'll burn down to my cutting point, lanyard in, pull my bodyline out of the oval ring on the hook, retag, and make the cut.

jomoco


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 8, 2008)

The last place I used to work used a Ring on the hook so the climber was a little lower than the hook, and very free movement...No sling snagging or anything. It pretty much acted like a FS, just a solid steel oval ring you put in the hook then put the slings in. Personally I liked that setup. Oldirty...Whatever you do with our crane setup...I am prepared to be the guinea pig...


----------



## jomoco (Oct 8, 2008)

Moestavrn said:


> The last place I used to work used a Ring on the hook so the climber was a little lower than the hook, and very free movement...No sling snagging or anything. It pretty much acted like a FS, just a solid steel oval ring you put in the hook then put the slings in. Personally I liked that setup. Oldirty...Whatever you do with our crane setup...I am prepared to be the guinea pig...



Beware of POS cranes, with POS hooks, with flimsy POS hook gates on them.

If you see such POS setups, recommend Crosby Professional Crane Balls & Hooks with heavy duty positive locking hook gates!

It's your life on that dang hook!

jomoco


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 8, 2008)

jomoco said:


> The method that I currently use employs a solid oval 5/8ths steel ring on the hook first, then a large 3/4 steel clevice with my rigging choker on the hook next, then I lock the hook gate with a bolt, wrench tightened.Can you post an image of a clevis similar to what you use? I think I am on the same page as you but not 100%. And your bodyline goes through the oval, correct?
> 
> I point the gateside/rigging/clevis side at the pick, snug up the choker by signaling the CO to spool up, when all is snug and proper I'll burn down to my cutting point, lanyard in, pull my bodyline out of the oval ring on the hook, retag, and make the cut.I assume you point the hook in this fashion to keep your bodyline from getting between the rigging and the pick?
> 
> jomoco



I haven't had the crane line foul my climbing line by spinning as load is applied and it (to be honest) never occurred to me.

We do not have a locking gate on our crane but we had all the components to use a shackle above the ball. To me, with a non-locking gate, That method seemed safest to me.


----------



## jomoco (Oct 9, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> I haven't had the crane line foul my climbing line by spinning as load is applied and it (to be honest) never occurred to me.
> 
> We do not have a locking gate on our crane but we had all the components to use a shackle above the ball. To me, with a non-locking gate, That method seemed safest to me.



You are 100 percent correct, and scenarios exactly like yours are exactly why I backed off the pressure on ansi, you see they have to consider that some yokels actually use cranes without locking hook gates on them, and that them even being mentioned by such idiots following their standard on hazardous POS crane balls or hooks, would quickly turn into a liability nightmare.

I hope you wear a good hardhat because it's simply a matter of time before your CO loses all his rigging off his hook punching through a thick canopy right over your friggin head partner, look out below!

jomoco


----------



## Ghillie (Oct 9, 2008)

jomoco said:


> You are 100 percent correct, and scenarios exactly like yours are exactly why I backed off the pressure on ansi, you see they have to consider that some yokels actually use cranes without locking hook gates on them, and that them even being mentioned by such idiots following their standard on hazardous POS crane balls or hooks, would quickly turn into a liability nightmare.
> 
> I hope you wear a good hardhat because it's simply a matter of time before your CO loses all his rigging off his hook punching through a thick canopy right over your friggin head partner, look out below!
> 
> jomoco



I RESOUNDING YES!! To head protection. Whether it woud help enough with such an impact, I really don't want to find out and I don't want any of our guys to find out either.

As you might have seen in the pictures, our crane ball is missing the gate completely. I am not proud of it and I thought I had posted pictures that would not promote the use of gateless hooks, but one slipped by me. Safety is a big concern for us and we have made some BIG improvements this year. Sadly the crane ball has not been one of these improvements.

I just did searches for crosby group lifting and I am not sure what I am seeing come up is what you are referring to exactly. If you could post something to clarify what I am looking for, I would greatly appreciate it.

I hope I have not given the impression in this thread that I am an old hand at crane use. I am learning and will continue to learn as long as I stay in this business.

Be safe,

Fred


----------



## jomoco (Oct 9, 2008)

Ghillie said:


> I RESOUNDING YES!! To head protection. Whether it woud help enough with such an impact, I really don't want to find out and I don't want any of our guys to find out either.
> 
> As you might have seen in the pictures, our crane ball is missing the gate completely. I am not proud of it and I thought I had posted pictures that would not promote the use of gateless hooks, but one slipped by me. Safety is a big concern for us and we have made some BIG improvements this year. Sadly the crane ball has not been one of these improvements.
> 
> ...



Either of these Crosby crane overhaul balls with lockable gates should help ensure a long tree/crane career for yu Fred!

http://www.slingchoker.com/sling2/c... TOP SWIVEL OVERHAUL BALLS WITH 320 EYE HOOKS

I like the 150 pound ball myself!

jomoco


----------



## D Mc (Oct 9, 2008)

Just thought I would post this alternative method of tie in that I will use whenever the situation is appropriate. Having a friction saver on the jib pulley produces a very smooth, safe tie in. Without the ball tugging you back and forth, there is much less effort involved and is more like a normal tie in point feel. 

Dave


----------



## custom8726 (Oct 9, 2008)

jomoco said:


> Either of these Crosby crane overhaul balls with lockable gates should help ensure a long tree/crane career for yu Fred!
> 
> http://www.slingchoker.com/sling2/c... TOP SWIVEL OVERHAUL BALLS WITH 320 EYE HOOKS
> 
> ...



The second hook is the type we currently have on the 23 ton crane we lease. We just started working with this crane company this year and its taking some getting use to after years of using the NON-locking spring clip setup. I spent 11 hrs working with the crane yesterday and implemented some techniques suggested here by you with success. Thanks.


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 9, 2008)

OD on the crane....


----------



## Moestavrn (Oct 9, 2008)

Last one...


----------

