# Not as big as Sizzle's trees



## Onelick (Dec 10, 2005)

Here are some pics from the other weekend.
Onelick
View attachment 29174


View attachment 29175


View attachment 29176


View attachment 29177


View attachment 29178


----------



## Onelick (Dec 10, 2005)

The rest....
View attachment 29179


View attachment 29180


View attachment 29181


----------



## gumneck (Dec 10, 2005)

Good show 1Lick,

My bro is 49 days younger than you and is a professional firefighter as well.

Anywho, pls school me on your initial face cut of your notch. It looks plenty wide for that tree. I'm guessing you were practicing some chainsaw cutting techniques. Practice makes perfect.


----------



## Onelick (Dec 12, 2005)

No, I wasn't really practicing. I was always taught that the width of the hinge controls the direction of the fall. The width of the hinge should be 80%-100% of the diameter of the tree. I should also add that the stumps were left high on purpose so the backhoe could dig them out. I hate cutting that high... something about eviscerating my gut that doesn't sit well...


----------



## woodfarmer (Dec 16, 2005)

*plunge*

two of your pictures were titled plunge, from the pictures it is difficult to tell diameter of the tree, did you need to use a plunge cut? what is the dia. of the tree and what saw are you using and bar length?


----------



## Husky288XP (Dec 18, 2005)

Onelick used a plunge cut to set his hinge thickness and allow for wedging to get maximum lift. He left enough holding wood, tab, in the rear of the back-cut to hold the tree in place (for wedging and hinge width). Once he sent his wedges on home, he cut the rear holding wood (tab) and the tree's felled.


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2005)

OIn thing about the bore cut method to think about is the fact that iff you have to wedge the tree wedges placed behind and parralell to the hings are no effective. You will be wacking all day to get the tree to go over.
You can still use the bore cut method, but instead leave your holding wood off to one side so you can place the wedge perpendicular to the hinge.


----------



## Onelick (Dec 19, 2005)

I don't understand how they can be ineffective if placed parallell to the hinge. it's still lifting isn't it? That's the only way I set my wedge(s). I get the maximum lift with a 12" wedge (I only carry 10's and 12's) and if the tree isn't that big in dia, and I still need alot of lift, then I have to put it parallell to the hinge. I have never had a tree NOT fall when I place the wedge parallell. You do have to make sure you have enough wedge thickness to get the lift you need to overcome the lean. This is where the Prosight card comes into play.
Onelick


----------



## smokechase II (Dec 21, 2005)

Onelick:
BWalker is basically right. Just overstated.
Wedges placed parallel or next to the hinge do lift, just not as well as from the area of the backcut furthest from the hinge.
It relates to the length of the lever arm, the hinge is the fulcrum, if you wedge from a point further from the fulcrum you'll get more leverage. Even a short distance can be very significant.
Wedging next to the hinge has three weaknesses:
1) There will be some trees you simply cannot get over with reduced leverage.
2) There will be increased wear on equipment and operator with trees that you can still get over but require more beatin' than necessary to get over.
3) On dead wood and a lighter tree, it can pop the hinge early if you drive the wedge even moderately prior to completing the back-cut.
Your last photo shows what I'd suggest is too small of a face, unless because of a heavy lean that is all you could get in. A 1/3rd face is generally preferred and one of the reasons is that wedging is easier.
Also a narrow face can control felling direction more than a wide 80% + face. If you're working against a lean, you can cut a narrow beveled face that will close on one side first. This can be part of your plan and help direct a tree toward the other side.


----------



## Onelick (Dec 21, 2005)

I thought he was talking about placing the wedge parallel to the hinge, not the distance from the hinge. I understand about the leverage and lift from the wedge placed as far from the hinge as possible.


----------



## smokechase II (Dec 22, 2005)

Back in 1992 I came up with a way of doing the bore cut and getting the wedge(s) established while having matching cuts all the way around. This is generally dependent on a long enough bar.
1) Place your bore cut up to the holding wood and head about half way out the back. Pull your bar out so that you complete this portion of the back cut leaving a pillar, of sorts, on one side of the rear. Place an insurance wedge gently by the cut side’s hinge and a regular wedge snuggly near the rear. Finish the back cut from the opposite and balance with a second rear wedge or as needed. A weakness to this tactic is that you have to place yourself on both sides of the tree. Which may not be safe.
*bwalker* in post #7 states: "You can still use the bore cut method, but instead leave your holding wood off to one side so you can place the wedge perpendicular to the hinge." I think that is the same thing or close to what I'm saying.
Since about '95 I've seen where some books etc mention doing a half back cut, establishing a wedge, then going to the other side and best guessing a match on the other half of a back cut. Not bad usually, but if you're working at a max limit to talk a tree over leaving even just a sliver/or a mismatch can hold up the world.
But Mr. Walker and perhaps others may have figured this out long ago.
Also with a large, wide open conventional face or GOL face this can be accomplished on trees with diameters > than the bar length. But that’s another story that depends on good holding wood in the corners and no major need for the holding wood in the center.


----------



## tam (Dec 28, 2005)

Onelick said:


> No, I wasn't really practicing. I was always taught that the width of the hinge controls the direction of the fall. The width of the hinge should be 80%-100% of the diameter of the tree. I should also add that the stumps were left high on purpose so the backhoe could dig them out. I hate cutting that high... something about eviscerating my gut that doesn't sit well...



i was wonderin how come they were so high.. btw what's a backhoe? never heard of that.


----------



## Onelick (Dec 29, 2005)

This is a backhoe, there are alot of different manufacturers. 
http://www.deere.com/en_US/cfd/construction/deere_const/backhoes/deere_backhoe_selection.html 
They wanted to make a pond there, so the stumps had to be dug out. Other wise I'd be cutting right above the root swell.


----------



## tam (Dec 30, 2005)

cheers dude. so it's like a jcb made by john deere. john deere make timberjack as well.


----------



## JimL (Dec 31, 2005)

I bore cut almost every tree, I find its alot safer for me to do it like that. 

Cut notch, Bore in set hinge where I want it, cut back and leave some holding wood, pop in a wedge or 2 unless its already got a good lean. Cut holding wood, if no go I might hit the wedge a time or two but I usually just throw another in the back. 

Trees under 10-12 in diameter i usually chase cut, anything over that never gets chase cut.


----------



## logcutter429 (Dec 31, 2005)

whats the high stumps about, looks like a skidder drivers nightmare, and all that bore plunge stuff in that size stuff is kinda overkill, what to ya work by the hour.


----------



## tam (Jan 1, 2006)

i guess you crazy yanks mean back cut when you say chase cut? hohoho me and ross turner have got a good story about a guy we know felling a tree the wrong way..


----------



## smokechase II (Jan 1, 2006)

Terminology varies throughout the US.
I had not heard of a "chase" before, at least that I can recall.
The face cut to some is a notch elsewhere.
We refer to a bore locally and it is a plunge to *onelick* and others.
Call us crazy, just not late for dinner.


----------



## JimL (Jan 1, 2006)

Bore Cutting and chase cutting are different ways to cut the back cut. 

I call it chase cutting cause your chasing the tree when it finally starts to go.


----------



## smokechase II (Jan 1, 2006)

Tam:
Let’s have the wrong way story.

JimL:
We call the back cut the back cut. 
Boring out the back or just boring covers the other method in the terminology I'm familar with. Boring is not widely used in the West other than on barber chair avoidance. It is getting a small following also on precise holding wood placement for some newer fallers.
I'm not aware of any pro cutters using it exclusively. Which sounds similar to your not using it on certain diameters.


----------



## JimL (Jan 1, 2006)

I know of one other guy that uses the bore cutting method exclusively. 
I just got used to doing it this way and always do now.


----------



## tam (Jan 7, 2006)

ahh i get why you call it the chase cut now. well, this story, it's a bit better saying it out loud coz you can do the actions. but anyway...

a long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, there was a line clearance company working on a 33kv line going through a scots pine plantation. for the first few days they were felling medium size trees nice and quickly, keeping well clear of the lines. on the third day of the job, one of the guys, who was a damn good climber, felled a beast of a tree but let the side branches catch the conductors a bit. as you know, this is a huge big deal, coz if the lines touch together, you've got a big electric cut. but it was cool. then a couple days later, another of the dudes felled a tree bad and it went and hung up on the ******* line!! the line held like, coz it's a chunky ass thing. so the boss dude poled the stick til it had no branches and was just poking over the cunductor, know what i mean. right, so then the dude who had skiffed the line the other day gets to the butt of the tree, ready to sever it sos it will roll off the line. but the thing is, there's so much tension on the cable, when the tree comes off, the line will flick about so much it'll definitely hit the other line. so what do we do? we get the poles with the hook on the end, stick it over the LIVE conductor, just a couple feet from where the tree is sitting, and me (woops i was meaning to keep doing this story in the third person) and another dude hold onto it sos we can gradually release the tension when the tree rolls off... as you do. weeeeeeell, the tree comes down and the line SHOOTS up, taking me with it, coz i'm holdin onto the poles, but i can't let go coz the poles will blast off into either orbit or the main road that's just down the bank. eventually i could let go, it felt really high but it couldn't really have been more than 15 foot max, and got back on the ground. we all had a good laugh and lived happily ever after. dunno where the poles did go mind you..


----------



## pantheraba (Jan 7, 2006)

tam said:


> (woops i was meaning to keep doing this story in the third person) ...... and the line SHOOTS up, taking me with it, coz i'm holdin onto the poles, but i can't let go coz the poles will blast off into either orbit or the main road that's just down the bank.



You gotta know...that is one of the funniest stories.   

It must have seemed like a good idea to somebody at the time.

Glad you made it OK (I mean that other third person dude).


----------



## smokechase II (Jan 7, 2006)

Tam:
May I suggest that you use *crazy* as a human behavior descriptor in the first person only.
I've watched a local line crew deal with blown down trees across power lines and that stored energy - rebound thing is impressive.


----------



## JimL (Jan 7, 2006)

logcutter429 said:


> whats the high stumps about, looks like a skidder drivers nightmare, and all that bore plunge stuff in that size stuff is kinda overkill, what to ya work by the hour.




Hour? no, by the foot, 

cut 10K foot a day doing it that way. Thats quite a bit for this area.


----------



## woodfarmer (Jan 7, 2006)

ok back to onelick, i enlarged the picture as much as i could and i'm not 100% but it looks like your wedge is on the face cut side of the hinge, is that correct?


----------



## Onelick (Jan 15, 2006)

Sorry I haven't responded back for awhile, I had "the blue screen of death" with my laptop and had to to the ole' control f11 and reset everything back to factory settings, which means I lost everything...
I'll try to respond to everyone's questions:
Woodfarmer, I was using a 460 with a 20" bar on a 18"-20" tree. There aren't many trees here on the east coast that you can't cut with a 20-24" bar. I don't have that chainsaw bar envy.... I don't have to have the biggest bar on my saw, I figure that's just that much more weight that I have to carry around. Your later question about where I put the wedge, it is behind the hinge as far back as I could put it to get the maximum lift.
Logcutter, see post #4.
Thanks, sorry it took so long to respond back.
Onelick


----------



## Ross Turner (Jan 21, 2006)

tam said:


> ahh i get why you call it the chase cut now. well, this story, it's a bit better saying it out loud coz you can do the actions. but anyway...
> 
> a long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, there was a line clearance company working on a 33kv line going through a scots pine plantation. for the first few days they were felling medium size trees nice and quickly, keeping well clear of the lines. on the third day of the job, one of the guys, who was a damn good climber, felled a beast of a tree but let the side branches catch the conductors a bit. as you know, this is a huge big deal, coz if the lines touch together, you've got a big electric cut. but it was cool. then a couple days later, another of the dudes felled a tree bad and it went and hung up on the ******* line!! the line held like, coz it's a chunky ass thing. so the boss dude poled the stick til it had no branches and was just poking over the cunductor, know what i mean. right, so then the dude who had skiffed the line the other day gets to the butt of the tree, ready to sever it sos it will roll off the line. but the thing is, there's so much tension on the cable, when the tree comes off, the line will flick about so much it'll definitely hit the other line. so what do we do? we get the poles with the hook on the end, stick it over the LIVE conductor, just a couple feet from where the tree is sitting, and me (woops i was meaning to keep doing this story in the third person) and another dude hold onto it sos we can gradually release the tension when the tree rolls off... as you do. weeeeeeell, the tree comes down and the line SHOOTS up, taking me with it, coz i'm holdin onto the poles, but i can't let go coz the poles will blast off into either orbit or the main road that's just down the bank. eventually i could let go, it felt really high but it couldn't really have been more than 15 foot max, and got back on the ground. we all had a good laugh and lived happily ever after. dunno where the poles did go mind you..



How this incident happened was that i was sent to site with unqualified staff in utility arb,the trees where cat 1 trees(trees that are in the live zone or the potentail to breech the live zone,Live zone .8m vicinty zone 2.5m)
Under our regulations that should be a shutdown but the company said we would do it live as thats the way the company works which is why im getting out,im sick of doing unsafe stuff & im the only fully qualified person in the company.


----------



## clearance (Jan 21, 2006)

Ross-talked to you on that other thing, hi. You were working on a 33kv. line huh? Our regs. are real clear on this, 20kv to 30kv as long as the tree is 4 feet away from the line you can climb it. Limits on this voltage are as follows personal (body) limit=4ft tested tool (pole pruner) 1.5 ft. For 30kv to 75kv line the limit is 5ft and 3ft with a tool. If the tree could hit the line when you fall it it must be restrained with a rope, that means pulled over away from the line. If the tree is closer than 4 or 5ft to the line you are supposed to get a kill (outage). I think I understand your reg. to mean that even if the trees are outside the .8 you need a kill. The incident detailed by Tam, the tree must have hit the neutral wire, otherwise electrocution would have resulted. Here the neutral is almost always under the primary (live) by at least 6ft. I would not have done that, would have taken my chances with the lines slapping together, if the power went out I would just deny it was anything to do with us. Usually when the power goes out the phone starts ringing and the power co. man is on the way to crucify you. If you can its best to hide evidence (burned tree for example) get everyone on the same page and deny it. I have done stuff around the powerline that I could have had my ticket pulled, but who hasn't, after you know how it works you know what you can get away with. When the lines here are under great pressure they just break-its the telephone line that stores huge tension, enough to chuck a 300lb. block across the road. Onelick-thems some mighty strange falling ways you got going out east there. I'm a humbolt, backcut guy myself but I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat.


----------



## Ross Turner (Jan 21, 2006)

It was a 3 phase 33kv line & it had hit 2 of the conductors,an untrained lad felled it but it sat back so they tried to wedge it over,as they where doing this the hinge snapped & it went side ways falling across the conductors.


----------



## clearance (Jan 21, 2006)

Ross-that is feckin insane. The ground must have been really dry or something, maybe just shathouse luck. I was working on a rock bluff by a 25kv three phase line when I cut of my holding wood on a little cedar tree. It fell across two phases and started to burn, I froze, cringing, then I tried to hop away but fell in the slash and snow. There was a funny noise and the line blew the fuses. I was o.k. but kind of shaky for a while. It put out power to the ski hill, people had to be rescued from the chairlift. I was just an apprentice then, my foreman got the blame. The lineman showed up hours later due to being away from civilisation. I hate using up one of my nine lives like that but my number wasn't up. If my foreman had got down to truck in time he would have gone up in the bucket and sawed it down with his trimsaw. The lawsuit has not gone to court yet, I am a long way away, a 1000 mile drive and a seven hour ferry ride up the coast, no one has served me with papers yet. Life goes on, you win some you lose some, everyday above ground is a good day.


----------



## Ross Turner (Jan 21, 2006)

as i have said im the only one in the company who is qualified to NPTC standards for electrical/utility arb work,& am getting sick of doing crap & filling in risk assesments that mean crap as if anything happened its my ass on the line as it states only qualified people to be working next to live overhead lines.


----------



## BIG JAKE (Jan 21, 2006)

Ross Turner said:


> as i have said im the only one in the company who is qualified to NPTC standards for electrical/utility arb work,& am getting sick of doing crap & filling in risk assesments that mean crap as if anything happened its my ass on the line as it states only qualified people to be working next to live overhead lines.



Hey Ross-If you took the hit for a kid getting killed what would your likelyhood of getting a job elsewhere be after that? My guess is it's new career time. I'd get the company to hire enough profs to oversee these guys or line up a job and bail. It ain't about the money in the end. Sounds like a lot of sleepless nights too.


----------



## BIG JAKE (Jan 21, 2006)

BIG JAKE said:


> Hey Ross-If you took the hit for a kid getting killed what would your likelyhood of getting a job elsewhere be after that? My guess is it's new career time. I'd get the company to hire enough profs to oversee these guys or line up a job and bail. It ain't about the money in the end. Sounds like a lot of sleepless nights too.




I'm trying to imagine your situation over there. Maybe not a lot of alternate job options? I'm thinking starting something on your own-kind of on the side maybe-get it going a little before you jump. Other way to help cover yourself would be to compile copies of all requests made for additional qualified help to the company they failed to act on-just in case. Might vindicate you as then they failed to act on your requests for qualified help. Then you pull out the copies when they try to make you the fall guy in an investigation. I assume that would be gov't at some level. I'd make sure it's in writing though. I know the young fellers need to learn but should have experience overseeing in those dangerous scenarios. Maybe start a program where you demonstrate how those scenarios to the crews. Liability might be back on you then though. Whatever option you see fit just ideas.


----------



## Ross Turner (Jan 21, 2006)

BIG JAKE said:


> Hey Ross-If you took the hit for a kid getting killed what would your likelyhood of getting a job elsewhere be after that? My guess is it's new career time. I'd get the company to hire enough profs to oversee these guys or line up a job and bail. It ain't about the money in the end. Sounds like a lot of sleepless nights too.



Thats my intention.


----------



## woodfarmer (Jan 21, 2006)

ask for triple your wage rate that should get their attention(companies) then increase your insurance coverage if you have your own policy,... or try to become the company trainer, usually when on the management side of things you are more protected by the company in terms of liability.


----------



## tam (Jan 29, 2006)

apart from that, the work is great fun.


----------



## Dale M (Feb 5, 2006)

*why so many cuts?*

Hi . Im not criticizing you, infact the opposite I am trying to learn here.. Why do you make so many cuts to drop a 12 inch tree?,, I cut a notch in the front, about 1/3 of the way thro. lined up where I want to tree to drop, then 
go behind and start my cut a couple inchs above the notch center and slowly cut in,, when the tree starts lean or Im down to a couple inch hinge I stop the saw, try giving the tree a push and if its not moving I hammer in a wedge and tip it that way.... Am I going about this all wrong? And a plunge cut? and when do you want to use this type of cut..
Thank-You
Dale M


----------



## tam (Feb 25, 2006)

yeah man nothing wrong with that. however, theoretically, you're only meant to put your gub a quarter of the way in. as you probably know... mind you, i sometimes take it halfway into the tree if i really can't be arsed levering it over and if it'll go easily. but what can i say? i'm just a big cowboy. hahaha another nice wee picture


----------

