# saftey techniques for cutting out



## jsteel80 (Nov 25, 2007)

just wanted a couple of opinions on what safety techniques to use in case of cutting out


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## Grace Tree (Nov 25, 2007)

Sacrifice your inner forearms and legs from the knees down. Don't shrink from the immediate pain. If you do you'll only postpone even more and greater misery. Always remember that your face makes a lousy friction device.
My thoughts,
Phil


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## Spotted Owl (Nov 25, 2007)

Just don't cutout. 

Kidding, sooner or later it will happen. Then your will know the true meaning of pucker factor. Even a few steps off the ground you will suck your shorts right in.

2 words, BEAR HUG. Even if you are in something sizable a bear hug will slow you. Never forget the friction force of your chest either. Grab on with anything and everything you have. Above all do what you have to to cut back in. 

No BS in Small Wood saying this "Don't shrink from the immediate pain. If you do you'll only postpone even more and greater misery." Do what ever it takes to keep your body from hitting the ground, if there is nothing possible, do what ever your can to slow your decent. If you hit the deck when you land ROLL ROLL ROLL. Let your entire body absorb the shock not just your feet, legs and vertical compression of your spine.

Owl


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## D Mc (Nov 26, 2007)

What exactly do you guys mean by "cutting out"?

D Mc


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## D Mc (Nov 26, 2007)

If that is the case, I don't agree with the responses given. 

The technique I was taught while using spurs (without a high line) is while you are climbing the tree, keep both hands on your flip line, (wearing gloves); when repositioning in the tree, keep both hands on your flip line. If you slip or spur out, turn palms inward facing up (rolling your elbows in to your body, almost touching). This will bind the flip line to the tree in a choker manner and will stop you from sliding, even on a slippery Euc. 

I was thinking maybe "cutting out" meant cutting your highline and in that case grabbing wood is your only option. (I have always used the term "spurring out" when losing spur connection.) If you spur out with your flip line still around the tree, by the time you hit the ground there is no way you are going to be able to "tuck and roll". :jawdrop: 


D Mc


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## woodchux (Nov 26, 2007)

I'd try to lean back and let the spurs dig in.


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## Brush Hog (Nov 26, 2007)

Happened to me about a week ago and flip line kept me from sliding to far. Between flip line and me swinging into tree slid down about 2' only. Definitely the pucker factor  . Just take your time and make sure spike is in before putting weight on it


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## (WLL) (Nov 26, 2007)

*cutting out what jsteel80 ?*



jsteel80 said:


> just wanted a couple of opinions on what safety techniques to use in case of cutting out



what is cutting out? some here say its gaffing out, but im not sure. I cut out all day and a good rule is stop look n listen if comunication is n/a. when cutting out stay out of the drop zone!


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## beowulf343 (Nov 26, 2007)

If you mean gaffing out, there are a few things you can do to prevent it. Make sure you are using the correct technique (keep your body out, when you suck your butt in and stand up straight, that's when you put the wrong angle on your gaffs.) And keep your gaffs sharp. That's one reason i'll always double wrap my lanyard on pecker poles-keeps you from sliding too far in case it happens.


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## tree md (Nov 26, 2007)

I've always heard it called kicking out. I slid about 10' down a spar onetime when I was starting out with gaffs. The insides of my arms and my belly was one big raspberry.  

It still happens from time to time. Usually when I'm aloft in the canopy on smaller limbs. In the canopy you usually have a good limb to hold onto so it's no big deal. Last time I kicked out bad I was roping the top of a Cottonwood from over a house and had my bull rope set in nub I had left from a limb a couple of feet lower. Took me for a ride and my spurs kicked out. :jawdrop: I leaned back to let my flipline take my weight and straddled the tree like a horse. I recovered well but it was definitely a pucker situation...


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## Spotted Owl (Nov 26, 2007)

D Mc said:


> If that is the case, I don't agree with the responses given.
> 
> The technique I was taught while using spurs (without a high line) is while you are climbing the tree, keep both hands on your flip line, (wearing gloves); when repositioning in the tree, keep both hands on your flip line. If you slip or spur out, turn palms inward facing up (rolling your elbows in to your body, almost touching). This will bind the flip line to the tree in a choker manner and will stop you from sliding, even on a slippery Euc.
> 
> D Mc



Over the years i have heard alot about this technique. Mostly from blow hards that didn't have many climbs/experience under their belt, and had heard that it was the best way to stop your self in a slide. I have however never seen anyone use this method. First thing that always happens is you grab for anything you can, if there is nothing the bear hug comes out. Most times in my experience you cut out not when you are actually climbing but when you are already up and working, and your attention is on more than the fundamentals and basics of climbing it'self, then your hands generally are not around your skid or flip line.

Now before anything else. I am in know way calling anyone here anything if it works for you then keep on doing it. Just my experiences talking.

Another thing keep stuff out of your mouth. I sometimes put stuff in my mouth to hold it while my hands are full, don't do this, I try to make a conciense effort not too. What is the first thing you do when you cut out, you take a huge deep breath IN, thus you will suck in whatever is in your mouth. Nothing more fun then a scramble up, that way you can rescue literally, the first climber that now has something stuck in his throat and needs the hymlick when he gets down but is usually unconsience and limp by then. Done this twice. Both times they were fighting me in a panic, I had to wait for them to passout before I could tie on to them cut their flipline and get them to the ground.


Owl


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## Spotted Owl (Nov 26, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> What is it that these two climbers had stuck in their throats?
> 
> This is the first I've heard of climbing being a choking hazard.




One guy had 2 bar nut in his mouth while swapping chains, didn't want to take the time for us to change it on the ground. He was standing on a rotten stob that came loose, sucked them bar nuts right down his throat. He was the one I had to wait until he passed out, before I could do anything to get him down.


The other was eating his lunch while working to save time. In go a handfull of filberts 4 got sucked down, while he was moving around with filberts in one hand and a sandwich in the other. He got on the downhill side and cutout


I wouldn't call climbing a choking hazard either, so long as you don't put or hold things in your mouth while you are up working.


Owl


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## joesawer (Nov 27, 2007)

I have seen guys do the choker method. It is not for me, I just can't seem to get comfortable with it. 
For me I instinctavely turn my spikes back into the tree at a greater angle while leaning back against my lanyard. I frequently drop a few inches to a foot while spiking large dead trees, and never even pay attention to it. It is sometimes amusing to hear spectators gasp and have to think about what made them do it. 
The last time I remember bear hugging a tree was in '94 when I was climbing around a fork in a frozen hickory and had taken my lanyard loose and gaffed out while going around the the swell in the fork. A fortunate learning experiance, to say the least.


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## D Mc (Nov 27, 2007)

Spotted Owl said:


> Over the years i have heard alot about this technique. Mostly from blow hards that didn't have many climbs/experience under their belt, and had heard that it was the best way to stop your self in a slide. I have however never seen anyone use this method. First thing that always happens is you grab for anything you can, Owl



There is more to this technique than just stopping the slip after a spur out. It teaches the new climber that while using spurs to keep your hands on the flip line. After a couple of years of doing this muscle memory kicks in. As joesawer says when your hands are on the flip line, you are in the proper body position and spur out becomes a nonissue. Once you lean forward to bear hug the tree, your spurs will kick out, your legs will wrap around the tree and unless it is over a nub, your flip line can fall below your knees. This may be just a scary situation in a small tree but will kill you in something big. 

While working in Eucs many of the trees will have their first limbs above 80' with smooth, powdery white trunks with very little taper. If this technique will work in these situations, which it does, it will work with any tree. 

Proper training with mentoring with qualified trainers/climbers reduces the likelihood of incidents requiring aereal rescues.

D Mc aka blow hard.


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## jsteel80 (Nov 27, 2007)

i really appreciate everyones response. i saw a video of someone doing a royal palm removal( which have very smooth trunks as well as the eucs that were mentioned). the climber was using two lanyards, one would go around the tree like a regular flipline and the other would go around the tree twice and was clipped to the center D-rings of the harness creating a choker . it seems like it would work but takes a little more work on the climbing end of it.(as far as operating two flips)
has anyone ever seen this method?
i have a small tree service in south fl. in which i basicly do everything but drag debris. i do mostly palm tree removals and pine removals which alot of the time there are no branches to catch your flip line if you do cut out( gaff out, spur out, spike out, break out, fly out or just plain old fall down the damn tree). there i think i got eveyones term included. anyway i know that we have much smaller trees down here( by the way i commend all of you that climb
those massive trees up north. you have my respect any day). in any event falling from 40 to 60 ft. is no picknic either. ive only been climbing for two years and so far no accidents. just trying to get some advice from the more experinced. 

thanks again, jsteel


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## tree md (Nov 27, 2007)

I use 2 lanyards a lot. I have a steel core flip line and a plain jane rope lanyard with a prussic adjuster. I like to use two lanyards for positioning. I also use it when going up a tree that I haven't preinstalled a climbing line in using the alternate lanyard technique. It comes in real handy when climbing up into large crotches that are awkward to get into while staying tied in with 1 lanyard. I like to have two tie in points when I make any cut. A climbing line and 1 lanyard works fine for this purpose but it's nice to have the rope lanyard to help position sometimes. Like if you have to lean out far when making a cut. I can often throw my rope lanyard around a limb and clip both ends into one of my side D's and gain a very stable cutting position. I use the rope lanyard and flipline choker style quite a bit as well but never when I'm ascending. I only use them choker style when I am making cuts where I want a little more stability. It's a pain in the arse trying to work your way up a tree with your lanyard choked.


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## beastmaster (Nov 28, 2007)

I do the same thing. I keep my gaffs turned inward. If I should gaff out, so far I've always only falling a few inches(or feet) before gaffing back in. I was trimming some 90ft skinny ass palms recently. I tried useing my climbing line as a choker along with my lanyard, but it was kind of a pain, and really slowed my ascend down. I think if for some reason I gaffed out and didn't gaff back in I would do the bear hug, or what ever else worked. I never tried it but I've seen people use a friction saver and a prussic as a choking lanyard. I've thought about useing that on eucalyptus removals up in the tops of citriodorus.


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## coydog (Nov 28, 2007)

I use my climb line as a safety when I'm working, I choke it to the tree using the steel snap on itself, then I keep an extra hms biner handy to put the tail after the prussic into a munter, that way if I kick out while I'm making a cut or when the top goes over the rope won't slide down the tree (even if it is skinny and smooth )and my climbing hitch will stop me, I can then descend if I have to in case I'm hurt. If I'm making a mess below me I keep the rope either coiled and clipped to my saddle or in a bag. Even ascending if you keep the second rope loop loose and hold it with your flipline you can flip it all together and with a little practice it's easy. If Im just climbing up a straight easy pole I wont use a safety I just hold the flipline exactly as described, so I can cinch the two sides together in case I slip and I won't scrape my chest face and arms up. I alway use a second safety when I'm cutting though and if it's nothing but spar below me I always choke that safety off so it stops me from sliding(if I cut out)


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## Knotdodger (Nov 29, 2007)

Thats what I heard ,, try too roll with it. Once I did go with it. But the other time from 28ft. I didnt know I was out untill I was out of breath on the ground.. He he. That was climbing utility poles though. Quite abit different I guess. I sure dont look forward to the big sliver's that come with it.


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Dec 1, 2007)

Splice up an 4-6 inch ( 5 tuck-splice ) eye on one end of a 5/8 in. 3-strand nylon rope. Make it about 6-9 ft. long. At the other end splice in a 3/4 in. gated ( safe lock ) snap . Now wrap the eye around that pine or other, place the snap end through the eye & snap it to your D-RINGS OF YOUR SEAT STRAP ! No more worrys when you kick-out.


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## Mitchell (Dec 1, 2007)

*forarms in*



D Mc said:


> There is more to this technique than just stopping the slip after a spur out. It teaches the new climber that while using spurs to keep your hands on the flip line. After a couple of years of doing this muscle memory kicks in. As joesawer says when your hands are on the flip line, you are in the proper body position and spur out becomes a nonissue. Once you lean forward to bear hug the tree, your spurs will kick out, your legs will wrap around the tree and unless it is over a nub, your flip line can fall below your knees. This may be just a scary situation in a small tree but will kill you in something big.
> 
> While working in Eucs many of the trees will have their first limbs above 80' with smooth, powdery white trunks with very little taper. If this technique will work in these situations, which it does, it will work with any tree.
> 
> ...




squeezing the flip in with your forams was how I was shown to arrest a fall. I learned to climb logging sport poles so no bark and pretty smooth wood. the technique worked well there. Ofcourse you have both hands on the flip line so it is more natural thing to do. 
With out ones hands on the flip line I doubt any one would grab the flip line to choke it, no doubt they will bear hug the tree or grab whatever when they kick out.
When climbing logging poles I learned to never lean to far back so as to not flip over backwards and come down head first back to the spar. A very ugly situation that has apparently snapped a neck or two.

I have never fallen more then a few three feet and it has always been in douglas fir with thick irregular bark, so the flip line stops a fall instantly. I dont think I even had a chance to react, gravity sure works well. In arbutus [madrona] or small spars I double wrap the flipline. As I keep the loop loose I find it doesn't slow me down much. 

I have kick out enouph times now that I don't sweat the one or two foot fall anymore it but man did it ever scare the tar out of me before.


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## D Mc (Dec 1, 2007)

Mitchell said:


> With out ones hands on the flip line I doubt any one would grab the flip line to choke it, no doubt they will bear hug the tree or grab whatever when they kick out.



A very good observation, Mitchell. I know a lot of you guys have been up one side and down the other and I am not trying to tell you how to do your work. BUT, spurring out is most likely to happen while you are moving. And as taught to me, at those times, place your hands on your flip line. Don't get in the habit of grabbing the bark, branch or a nub while you maneveur yourself into position. Your best friend, while moving, will be your flip line. Once you get into position to do your work, you have other options. 

For you guys who tuck and roll once you hit the ground, does this happen often? And where's your flip line?

D Mc


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## joesawer (Dec 2, 2007)

I think you should train yourself to lean back against the flip line to increase the angle of your gaffs to get them back into the wood. It is a part of trusting your gear and getting the most out of it. Bear hugging the tree shows a lack of experiance and trust in your gear. 
As for flipping upside down and smacking my head into the trunk-I have never had that much slack in my flip line. Dont ever plan to either. If you have that much slack it should be treated as a TIP instead of a flip.
How can you possibly tuck and roll with a lanyard around the trunk?


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## Ken05 (Dec 2, 2007)

Just to share a related story - I used to climb utility poles for a CATV contractor. Typically the heights where relatively low and the poles where gaffed repeatedly over the years resulting in hundreds of gaff holes with out turned splinters facing upward. For this reason we where taught not to bear hug a pole in a gaff out but to kick free and take the fall. One guy on our crew on a hot summer day "burned" a pole doing the bear hug wearing only a t-shirt. He must of had 300 splinters embedded in his arms and torso ranging from tiny ones to ones 1x4 inches thick. Freakin nasty.


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