# My Brother Cut His Knee



## Nailsbeats (Jun 8, 2008)

We just took down some pines for a friend at his new house, and were cutting the stumps low when it happened. He was squating down and the saw kicked out of the cut causing him to loose his balance and put his knee down on the slowing chain.

My buddy's mom is a nurse show she ran him to the ER, when he got backed hopped up on med's we had the job done.

Luckily he missed everything that would have required surgery. Not fun, nonetheless. 

He wasn't wearing chaps, and said that the way it happened it wouldn't have mattered, I am not sure.

Here is his knee stitched up.


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## Ekka (Jun 9, 2008)

Should have been wearing the industry requirement PPE called CHAPS or Chainsaw trousers.


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## smokechase II (Jun 9, 2008)

*Chaps a plus*

Saw Chaps are like a seatbelt or hardhat.

They are certainly not a guarantee of complete protection.
Just a really good idea.

Taking the latitude that because his cuts were not extensive I'm gonna say without further evidence that chaps would very probably have done this job.

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A cost analysis:

Cost of medical care and transportation to and from hospital
Minus the cost of chaps 
= priceless if he learned from it.


Of course there are other factors. Drugs provided versus street drugs - considering both the high and low generated and cost comparisons. Also blood utilized as fertilizer. Wound utilization in beach scenarios for 'dates'.
He did get out of work and that for some is a good reason to not control a saw.

All the best and are you familiar with the two tree length safety distance when falling?

I'd suggest a three bar length from him when he is cutting.

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For the good of the order, what caused the kickback?
Bar tip violation or a closing cut?


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## jlficken (Jun 9, 2008)

Glad he is alright. I have an MS361 on order and have been running a John Deere for awhile. I would like to get the best chaps I can since they are cheap insurance. I have a 36" waist and 36" inseam. Can anyone provide a link to good chaps? I have looked at Stihl but wondered if there is anything better. Thanks.


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## Blakesmaster (Jun 9, 2008)

Sorry to hear that, Nails. Glad he's all right. Amazing to see that even the old hats at tree work still have to watch out. This is a good little reminder to all of us to pay more attention all the time.


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## Urbicide (Jun 9, 2008)

jlficken said:


> Glad he is alright. I have an MS361 on order and have been running a John Deere for awhile. I would like to get the best chaps I can since they are cheap insurance. I have a 36" waist and 36" inseam. Can anyone provide a link to good chaps? I have looked at Stihl but wondered if there is anything better. Thanks.



Check out Labonville. Excellent quality, excellent service, AS sponsor, and 10% off if you order on line. (Check particulars for the sale under Labonville in the sponsor forums.)

http://www.labonville.com/shop/pc/viewCat_h.asp?idCategory=14


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## jlficken (Jun 9, 2008)

Thanks Urbicide. I just ordered a set of green full wrap chaps and the helmet system. Now I'm set for my saws arrival. 10% off is also nice.


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## Urbicide (Jun 9, 2008)

No problem.


One thing to mention. Did you measure from your belt line to the top of your boots? If you order your normal inseam as a length for your chaps you will find that they are a bit short! If you have any question on this give the girls a call at Labonville and they can make a correction before the chaps ship (which is very quick).


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## jlficken (Jun 9, 2008)

I did notice that in their instructions. I am 42" but went with the 44" pair as I figured long is better than short. I can't wait for my saw to arrive!!!


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## treemandan (Jun 9, 2008)

Nails, I hope your brother get along well; into the bone is it?
Anyway this accident didn't happen because a not wearing chaps but you guys should be wearing something. Kneepads!
kneepads enable you to rest your kness on the crap around the trunk when backcutting or just any low cutting. Being lower ( no squatting) keeps your weight in good place to control the saw. If the kickback accurred in this position your brother would/ should of had his hands in the proper position to deal with the kickback nicley.
Squatting is something people do in the woods for sure but doing so puts you extremly off balance and puts your legs in between you and the saw.
A good set a pads will enable you to move around the low big cuts quickly and effeciently and you can roll up to your feet quick to move out fast.
I never could get over those guys who walk up to a trunk with a big saw and bend at the waist to make a cut by the ground. Looks like that is asking for trouble too. Try the pads, you dad will think you are getting to spoiled.


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## Blakesmaster (Jun 9, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Nails, I hope your brother get along well; into the bone is it?
> Anyway this accident didn't happen because a not wearing chaps but you guys should be wearing something. Kneepads!
> kneepads enable you to rest your kness on the crap around the trunk when backcutting or just any low cutting. Being lower ( no squatting) keeps your weight in good place to control the saw. If the kickback accurred in this position your brother would/ should of had his hands in the proper position to deal with the kickback nicley.
> Squatting is something people do in the woods for sure but doing so puts you extremly off balance and puts your legs in between you and the saw.
> ...




Nope. Never put your knees on the ground. You need to be on your feet so that you can get away clean and quick if something goes wrong.


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## sperho (Jun 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Never put your knees on the ground. You need to be on your feet so that you can get away clean and quick if something goes wrong.



Even for ALAPing a stump?  

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Like smokechase II, I'm also interested in more details of the kickback cause.


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## treemandan (Jun 9, 2008)

Ekka said:


> Should have been wearing the industry requirement PPE called CHAPS or Chainsaw trousers.



I have a couple pair , brand new never worn. I will try them on tommrow cause now I even wear my seatbelt these days but today I took some trees down and didn't wear my hat just cause I knew I would just fine. The only reason being I KNEW I would be fine... and I was, fine.
I don't know, sometimes I think I only need the seatbelt cause of the OTHER people. Hell I can see where I am going, I ain't going hit anything !


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## Blakesmaster (Jun 9, 2008)

sperho said:


> Even for ALAPing a stump?
> 
> ----
> 
> Like smokechase II, I'm also interested in more details of the kickback cause.



Not sure ALAPing a stump means but if your just taking off the final chunk or two it doesn't matter, but whenever there's a chance of something coming at my head from above I'm up on my toes.


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## treemandan (Jun 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Nope. Never put your knees on the ground. You need to be on your feet so that you can get away clean and quick if something goes wrong.



I understand that not everbody is as able to roll up from my kness and run as fast as I can... But then again I am amongst only the mortal.
Come on where did you hear that rule you just quoted. Its part of the job- be a ninja! I love to make a notch close to the ground and for tons of reasons. And cutting stumps down? You are safer when comfortable and in control.
Not to totally say SQUATTING is never good but it does put your meat between you and the saw and a jolt could toss you down or pull you forward. Just keep the saw at what level you can control it is key here. Squatting and cutting below your torso make you wrist bend and the brake unattended. 
So with that Nails, How was he holding the saw? And please describe the whole thing in as much detail for good reference. I am so glad your boy can walk, you must be too.


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## sperho (Jun 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Not sure ALAPing a stump means but if your just taking off the final chunk or two it doesn't matter, but whenever there's a chance of something coming at my head from above I'm up on my toes.



ALAP = As Low As Possible. From the OP's first post, I interpreted that his brother was low-cutting a stump after it had been felled already:



Nailsbeats said:


> We just took down some pines for a friend at his new house, and were cutting the stumps low


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## Blakesmaster (Jun 9, 2008)

sperho said:


> ALAP = As Low As Possible. From the OP's first post, I interpreted that his brother was low-cutting a stump after it had been felled already:



Didn't catch that, in that case I don't see an issue. Only when felling, which was something my old boss told me the day he got back from the GOL course.


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## treemandan (Jun 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Didn't catch that, in that case I don't see an issue. Only when felling, which was something my old boss told me the day he got back from the GOL course.



Yes there are many variables to every senerio.
I would not be on my knees felling big sticks in the canopy, and I might make cuts at a level siutable for standing
But when I want to fell a big bare trunk with as less impact and as much control as possible I am on my knees. sounds like a queff sometimes they go so gentle. 
I was just being a smart as about the ' mortal' thing. truth is I am scared. That is why I stay in the right place to operate the saw. Catch me in a situation where hitting the break and running ain't easy, I dare ya. MOOOOOMMMIE! That's what I would scream.


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## Bruce Hopf (Jun 9, 2008)

treemandan said:


> I have a couple pair , brand new never worn. I will try them on tomorrow cause now I even wear my seatbelt these days but today I took some trees down and didn't wear my hat just cause I knew I would just fine. The only reason being I KNEW I would be fine... and I was, fine.
> I don't know, sometimes I think I only need the seat belt cause of the OTHER people. Hell I can see where I am going, I ain't going hit anything !


Yes I know what you are saying. Unfortanetly, it only takes once, for some Bozo to run a stop sign, or traffic light, to make you wish you had your seat belt on. 
Once for a miscalculation when falling a tree, Unseen object to fall out of the tree you are cutting down or a neighbouring tree. Just takes once for a good bump on the old Mellon, to make you wish you had on your hard hat system.
I know everybody tries to work safe when operating Chain Saws. The unthinkable things do happen. Even beyond our control. Worrying about something after it happens, is too late to do something about it.
Everyone who works with these machines, remember one thing. Life Is Just A Little While.
Thanks. Bruce.


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## Bruce Hopf (Jun 9, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> We just took down some pines for a friend at his new house, and were cutting the stumps low when it happened. He was squating down and the saw kicked out of the cut causing him to loose his balance and put his knee down on the slowing chain.
> 
> My buddy's mom is a nurse show she ran him to the ER, when he got backed hopped up on med's we had the job done.
> 
> ...


I'm very sorry to hear about your brother. It sure could have been worse. He could have hit an artery, and it could have been all over him, lost his knee cap, or even his leg. Happy to see that it was minor, with stitches. Hope he has a speedy recovery. 
Bruce.


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## Ekka (Jun 9, 2008)

I think his brother was very lucky.

Even when you hire a chainsaw here they MUST SUPPLY CHAPS.

Sometimes stumps have steel rods in them from planting which can kick back.

Sometimes the bar is not long enough and an inexperienced operator can have a kick back.

Sometimes the log section traps the bar and the saw shoots straight out of the cut in a line. I know one guy who didn't want to get down on his knees doing the old bending over routine had the saw shoot straight out ... bamm right into his ankle. Imagine left hand on the handle right hand on the throttle, you are bent over and cutting toward your feet then the saw shoots straight back not arcing in kick back fashion. Also due to the placement of the left hand the chain brake likely wont activate.  

On larger stumps I'll often get down on the knees, left hand on throttle and right hand on handle bar, be behind the saw cutting away from me. That way either scenario you have control.


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## tomtrees58 (Jun 9, 2008)

that's not to bad i did 2 at one time 180 staples in each le g tom trees


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## Ekka (Jun 9, 2008)

Nasty, how the heck did you do that?


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## treemandan (Jun 9, 2008)

Ekka said:


> Nasty, how the heck did you do that?



Either he dropped the saw on himself or he was squatting in front of it or he is just stupid. Which is it Tom?


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## Nailsbeats (Jun 9, 2008)

He was cutting the stump below ground level after we dropped the tree. We had to do some digging to get the saw that low. You have the roots flaring out, the dirt, and you have to work around them in a circular fashion. Had he been on his knees stiff arming the saw and behind it pushing away he would have been fine. I am not sure if the saw kicked back because of a closing cut or the top of the bar catching. It's basically stump grinding with a chainsaw. Have done it many times, but you have to keep extra attention on controlling the saw, body placement, and stance.


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## Nailsbeats (Jun 9, 2008)

Here's a couple pics, I'd say he recovered fine. Got lucky though and didn't go into the bone and just missed some tendons, couldn't have done a better job.


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## l2edneck (Jun 9, 2008)

Ekka said:


> Should have been wearing the industry requirement PPE called CHAPS or Chainsaw trousers.




Shouldnt have run the saw across his leg....

He isnt the guy that works for that Gustafon outfit on Ax men i hope...


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## Ekka (Jun 10, 2008)

Yeah he's a big tough bastid, I'd say he didn't even cry!  

Now I wanna hear from the TomTrees guy who got 180 staples in EACH LEG.

I think he owes it to us all to make sure we never do anything like that.

So come on TomTrees, what were you doing?


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## treemandan (Jun 10, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Here's a couple pics, I'd say he recovered fine. Got lucky though and didn't go into the bone and just missed some tendons, couldn't have done a better job.



That is one speedy recovery, what do they feed you guys out there? What, you couldn't give the guy a few days off?
Trash? Never! Smarta$$? Sorry.
Did he really do this tree with all those stitches? That's tough! Look out for each other, I know you do, its in the job description. You guys got it all.


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## Nailsbeats (Jun 10, 2008)

No, this tree was done after the stitches were out. His incident happened last summer.

Dan here is our menu: venison steaks, venison brats, venison jerky, venison snack sticks, venison summer sausage, venison burger, venison roast, venison ring bolona, venison sandwich bolona, venison bacon, venison breakfast links, cheese and potatoes.

Drinks: milk & beer.

I shot these six deer last year while posting the first 2 drives of the day. 7 shots fired, done by 9:00 in the morning.






Here was opening day a couple years ago. Me and my bro got good bucks.





Here is an 8pt me and my bro shot down with pistols in a drive. Notice the "crown reduction" on the willow trees in the back, the ditch was on fire and burned them badly, so we did a "crown reduction" on them and they are starting to come back, amazing trees. I like saying "crown reduction", lol.


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## treemandan (Jun 10, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> No, this tree was done after the stitches were out. His incident happened last summer.
> 
> Dan here is our menu: venison steaks, venison brats, venison jerky, venison snack sticks, venison summer sausage, venison burger, venison roast, venison ring bolona, venison sandwich bolona, venison bacon, venison breakfast links, cheese and potatoes.
> 
> ...



Well all I have to say is STOP F-ING UP THOSE LITTLE TREES, like the one in the backround of one of those deer pictures! 
Tha't's not all I have to say- you should know that.
I have to say I am so envious of your little tree crew. No wonder you can post pics of spiking prune jobs, using chain in odd places, and genarally doing whatever you want AND still come out looking good. I would love to spend some time working with you. Don't drop at my price though. But sometimes I would pay to work with guys like you, it is so much fun. You guys are truly the last frontiersmen around this day and age and have set yourselves up nice. I bet you have a lot of fun working.
That little deer in the picture above is cute; What did you name him? Dinner?


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## oldirty (Jun 10, 2008)

i think tman has a little man crush on you and your operation there nails. lol

did i read right that you and your brother ran down a deer and shot it with hand guns? awesome.

tman is right though bud. you got it going on and its very respectable.


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## treemandan (Jun 10, 2008)

oldirty said:


> i think tman has a little man crush on you and your operation there nails. lol
> 
> did i read right that you and your brother ran down a deer and shot it with hand guns? awesome.
> 
> tman is right though bud. you got it going on and its very respectable.



Just a little one but YEAH! I admit it. I call them like I see them. More to come about the philosphy of the Gilman Gang. Who can beat their recipe? Chit, who can beat thier firepower?


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## oldirty (Jun 10, 2008)

i wouldnt mind hanging out with that crew climb'n trees, split'n wood, and shoot'n guns!

good times indeed.


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## treemandan (Jun 10, 2008)

oldirty said:


> i wouldnt mind hanging out with that crew climb'n trees, split'n wood, and shoot'n guns!
> 
> good times indeed.



I am sure their business doesn't suffer from many of the things that might plague another. Ya know?


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## Nailsbeats (Jun 11, 2008)

Tman and OD, I can feel the love, lol. 

Yes, tree work is great fun for us. We eat up as much of it as we can get our hands on. We have our daily grind job, we like that too, but when we get in the trees it's relaxing, challenging, and good all around commaradere. We often BS about doing it full time, but the concensus is that would take a lot of the fun out of it. Other guy's do different things in their free time, we pull out our guns, bows, equipment, and most importantly CHAINSAWS!

Don't get me wrong, we do take our tree work very seriously, but have fun at the same time. That is something you can do when you have a crew of guy's all willing and competent at all tasks. Keeps confidence and moral high.

BTW OD, we do a deer drive in a really thick piece where me and my bro opt for handguns to take the deer down at short distances. First time we did this some guys were laughing, 50 yards into the drive the 8pt jumped up between us and tried to go back on us, we converged on him in a heartbeat (litterally) and brought him down. Scoped rifles would have been a different story. Case and point. 

For the record all those deer were shot on public land (paper company) or boardering public land.

Stop in if you guys are in the area, we'll have fun, lol.


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