# fair wage and treatment



## BlakeC (Mar 12, 2006)

hello - Last summer I worked for a guy that recently bought a tree service in N MN. He hired me as ground guy with a loose agreement that Id eventually use my truck to haul his grinder and do stump jobs for better pay... After a number of days at $7/hour and reliable hard work from me, he complained that I took lunch break or 1 or two quick breaks when waiting for him to sharpen saw or bucket guy to do his work. The final straw was when he said he didnt pay for travel time when I was driving his chip truck. Do your staff get paid when transporting your gear to work site? Overall a bad experience, poor safety ethic, low pay, bust ass pace - I know how to work hard and do work hard but in my book I dont work harder than anybody else on job for $7/hour. Just curious about pay during travel...


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## skwerl (Mar 12, 2006)

Most tree guys are scum. Don't take it personally, just keep looking.


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## Dadatwins (Mar 12, 2006)

skwerl said:


> Most tree guys are scum. Don't take it personally, just keep looking.



Agreed, pure nonsense and illegal to not pay you when you are driving HIS truck to HIS job. Does not sound like a legit operation and in your best interest to move on.


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## jp hallman (Mar 12, 2006)

Yup, you're better off without the guy. Did he pay your insurance while you were using your truck for his work?
Dadatwins...going to Smallwood 2006? Don't want to hijack the thread, just need some local info.


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## ShoerFast (Mar 12, 2006)

BlakeC

Get on I-35 and head south, you would find a spot were thats the going rate to flip burgers, there are a lot of good jobs and this is the time of year to be looking.

There is a chance that you weren't on his insurance if he wasn't paying windshield time, and would have tried to make that part of his excuse if something happened.

Kevin


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## Nickrosis (Mar 13, 2006)

ShoerFast said:


> There is a chance that you weren't on his insurance if he wasn't paying windshield time, and would have tried to make that part of his excuse if something happened.


I've heard of companies doing that to their employees, but I had never considered that angle...


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## stihlatit (Mar 13, 2006)

BlakeC said:


> hello - Last summer I worked for a guy that recently bought a tree service in N MN. He hired me as ground guy with a loose agreement that Id eventually use my truck to haul his grinder and do stump jobs for better pay... After a number of days at $7/hour and reliable hard work from me, he complained that I took lunch break or 1 or two quick breaks when waiting for him to sharpen saw or bucket guy to do his work. The final straw was when he said he didnt pay for travel time when I was driving his chip truck. Do your staff get paid when transporting your gear to work site? Overall a bad experience, poor safety ethic, low pay, bust ass pace - I know how to work hard and do work hard but in my book I dont work harder than anybody else on job for $7/hour. Just curious about pay during travel...



7 bucks an hour and abuse as a benefit. Kiss that one goodbye. If you worked as hard as you say you did you deserve better and it will be his loss and your gain. Use your vehicle and no compensation and dont pay travel time. Boils my blood.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 14, 2006)

BlakeC said:


> The final straw was when he said he didnt pay for travel time when I was driving his chip truck.




Drop a dime to your local labor department. He's illegal.


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## Jumper (Mar 15, 2006)

Don't know what your labor laws are there, but here in Ontario the employer is obliged to give breaks and meal times (paid or unpaid) after set periods of work. I did a day trial with one company that expected me to eat my lunch en route to the next job in a dirty truck next to a fellow worker (and you know how they smell in the middle of summer). Needless to say I declined his offer of permanent employment for that reason and the 12 hour days, too long to be safe IMHO. Everyone I ever worked for started the clock when you arrived in the yard, and included travel time sometimes 3 hours a day, a half hour lunch at some convenient point in the day and coffee/water breaks. Hopefully you have found/will find something better, $7 an hour and putting up with that sh*t and abuse you did well to last as long as you did. I would suggest contacting the local labor department as suggested above-this guy is not legit, and as stated, probably operating illegally. But would be the first to whine that finding "good" workers is impossible.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 15, 2006)

Jumper said:


> Don't know what your labor laws are there, but here in Ontario the employer is obliged to give breaks and meal times (paid or unpaid) after set periods of work.




Same in the U.S., in every state in the Union. This guy's a scumbag, and should be turned in.


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## Redbull (Mar 15, 2006)

Unless his business is grossing ove 500K/year, than he doesn't fall under US labor laws. Still scum though.


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## Jumper (Mar 16, 2006)

So if you are a small business in the US you have the capability of abusing employees and get away with it. People that work for small bizs don't need lunch and pee breaks? The laws here tend to apply equally but there are provisions for smaller companies, eg the composition of H&S committees for eg.


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## Redbull (Mar 16, 2006)

I asked my accountant about paying my guys by the day and if it was legal. She told me that I can pay them however I want since I don't fall under US labor laws (less than 500K/yr). Now, that does not make it ethical to treat your help like dirt, and I don't condone unethical behavior. Im just passing on the information that was shared with me. My guys get paid very well and treated fairly, but they are also very part time as I work alone quite a bit.
Discalimer: yes I understand the risks involved in working alone and do not encourage that type of behavior either.


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## sawn_penn (Mar 17, 2006)

1. Yes, you are getting screwed.
2. If you had lots of experience, you could pick the job/pay you want.
3. Until then, you need to pick up experience.
4. Yes, you are going to get screwed. Nobody starts at the top and works down, we all start at the bottom and work up.
5. Get over it.


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## Nickrosis (Mar 17, 2006)

Redbull said:


> Unless his business is grossing ove 500K/year, than he doesn't fall under US labor laws. Still scum though.


What in the world are you talking about? You don't ask your plumber about HR issues, and don't ask your accountant either! It has nothing to do with your gross! See if she can give you a source, I'd be interested.


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## TreeLady (Mar 17, 2006)

To answer your questions, our guys are on the clock when we roll out in the am, if they are driving or not. The only way they arn't is if they drive their own vehicle to meet up at the jobsite. (Usually because they were late) We also pay for breaks and lunch (1/2 hour on site), but I'm sure that's not the norm for most companies. 

As you gain more skill in the industry you can make a good living doing this work, and benefits. But until then you will probably run into more dirtbags like this one. You are better off, if he was trying to screw you like that who knows how long he would stay in business and if your paychecks would even clear. I feel $7 per hour is too low for someone who is reliable and works hard, we start guys at $9 then see where they can go from there (best climber over $20). He wasn't paying you cash under the table was he?


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## clearance (Mar 17, 2006)

TreeLady said:


> To answer your questions, our guys are on the clock when we roll out in the am, if they are driving or not. The only way they arn't is if they drive their own vehicle to meet up at the jobsite. (Usually because they were late) We also pay for breaks and lunch (1/2 hour on site), but I'm sure that's not the norm for most companies.
> 
> As you gain more skill in the industry you can make a good living doing this work, and benefits. But until then you will probably run into more dirtbags like this one. You are better off, if he was trying to screw you like that who knows how long he would stay in business and if your paychecks would even clear. I feel $7 per hour is too low for someone who is reliable and works hard, we start guys at $9 then see where they can go from there (best climber over $20). He wasn't paying you cash under the table was he?


You start guys at $9, you actually pay for a little break and you have the nerve to comment on this? Ha ha ha, funny.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 17, 2006)

Redbull said:


> Unless his business is grossing ove 500K/year, than he doesn't fall under US labor laws. Still scum though.




Where did you get that idea? You are obligated to labor laws whether you take in 5 dollars or 5 million.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 17, 2006)

Redbull said:


> I asked my accountant about paying my guys by the day and if it was legal. She told me that I can pay them however I want since I don't fall under US labor laws (less than 500K/yr).



You need a new accountant. Your current one is grossly incompetent.

Ask the IRS what they think. You'll quickly get an earful.


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## TreeLady (Mar 17, 2006)

> You start guys at $9, you actually pay for a little break and you have the nerve to comment on this? Ha ha ha, funny.



That way they arn't pissed when we tell them they can't take the bucket out on Sunday for a side job. 

We are small so our work has to be the best, and the guys that get it done are worth it. We don't keep :censored: guys long because it costs too much.


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## clearance (Mar 17, 2006)

TreeLady said:


> That way they arn't pissed when we tell them they can't take the bucket out on Sunday for a side job.
> 
> We are small so our work has to be the best, and the guys that get it done are worth it. We don't keep :censored: guys long because it costs too much.


"The guys that get it done are worth it", at $9 an hour $72 a day! (before deductions). Wow, they are so well paid its amazing, I'll bet you have to turn people away. Listen up lady, you have to pay for a half hour break, our groundsman gets $175 for a 61/2 hour day, in the city groundsmen get $14-$16hr. You are just using people.


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## TreeLady (Mar 17, 2006)

First of all, the only person I use is my husband, and he likes it.

Second, we do not have to pay for lunch.
We start guys off at $9 for a week to see if they are going to show up. (half of them don't show up on time for a week). They know that their hourly will be determined by their performance. No one that we kept on has been less than $12 after that. Your groundsman gets over $26 an hour?? Where the hell are you Manhattan? No, we don't get the MBAs and PHDs wanting to rake and drag brush like you do. And that's what our groundmen do, rake, drag brush, and haul wood (not very big). They don't rope, use saws or grinders, only certified arborists use those. Most of the guys who apply have a record or are just out of the pen and pretty rough. We try to give them a chance but we start them through a temp agency, so they don't get "hurt" just to get on disability, and it costs us $18 an hour. We are small, but we are growing and we give $1 a year raises to everyone + cash bonuses for vacation, xmas, birthdays, new baby, etc... Maybe that's not :censored: to 
you, but our guys are happy, and around here that is alot more than most.


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## clearance (Mar 17, 2006)

TreeLady said:


> First of all, the only person I use is my husband, and he likes it.
> 
> Second, we do not have to pay for lunch.
> We start guys off at $9 for a week to see if they are going to show up. (half of them don't show up on time for a week). They know that their hourly will be determined by their performance. No one that we kept on has been less than $12 after that. Your groundsman gets over $26 an hour?? Where the hell are you Manhattan? No, we don't get the MBAs and PHDs wanting to rake and drag brush like you do. And that's what our groundmen do, rake, drag brush, and haul wood (not very big). They don't rope, use saws or grinders, only certified arborists use those. Most of the guys who apply have a record or are just out of the pen and pretty rough. We try to give them a chance but we start them through a temp agency, so they don't get "hurt" just to get on disability, and it costs us $18 an hour. We are small, but we are growing and we give $1 a year raises to everyone + cash bonuses for vacation, xmas, birthdays, new baby, etc... Maybe that's not :censored: to
> you, but our guys are happy, and around here that is alot more than most.


You hire them through a temp agency and pay the temp agency an $18hr wage + pimp fee for them?. Why not just pay guys who have a choice (not ex-cons who have few choices) a decent wage to begin with? If you can afford the $18 to the pimp temp. place you can afford to pay decent guys more, no? Must be that good guys don't want to work for $9 an hour. Guys are happy huh? Why do you have to replace them then? Frankly your business methods leave a lot to be desired from a logical and moral viewpoint.


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## Redbull (Mar 17, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> You need a new accountant. Your current one is grossly incompetent.
> 
> Ask the IRS what they think. You'll quickly get an earful.



You all our probably right, but at this time I have no employees. I asked my "accountant" (The person that does my taxes) if it was legal to pay my employess, when I get them, by the day instead of hourly. Her response was " You can pay them however you want, as long as you're withholding." Then she proceeded to tell me that because I am such a small business that labor laws do not apply. Maybe I misunderstood what she said. 
The unfortunate thing is that it is very difficult to get sound advice from anyone in regards to running a business legally. It seems that everyone I talk to is grossly incompetent, including the city, the DOT, and the IRS. Im yet to get a straight answer from any of them, until the time comes to collect for fines.


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## TreeLady (Mar 17, 2006)

> You hire them through a temp agency and pay the temp agency an $18hr wage + pimp fee for them?. Why not just pay guys who have a choice (not ex-cons who have few choices) a decent wage to begin with? If you can afford the $18 to the pimp temp. place you can afford to pay decent guys more, no? Must be that good guys don't want to work for $9 an hour. Guys are happy huh? Why do you have to replace them then? Frankly your business methods leave a lot to be desired from a logical and moral viewpoint.



We don't have to replace them, anyone we have taken off the temp has stayed. We are growing, and that takes more crew.

We use the pimp temp to protect ourselves from the :censored: that are just looking to get on workers comp or disability. There are alot of them around here, they don't want to work. How are we supposed to get these choice guys short of stealing them from other companies. There just arn't alot around here, the ones we have gotten have been pure luck.

$12 hour for raking and dragging brush is a decent wage.

The average wage for a groundsman in the midwest was $13.11 - $10.36 in TCIA's 2005 wage report. Why don't you get your condescending head out of your :censored:??


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## Dadatwins (Mar 17, 2006)

Clearance, if you read the post, it is in english  $9.00 an hour to start as a brush dragger with the possibility of moving up to $12.00 an hour does not sound like a bad deal. The reason they use a temp agency is to prevent someone from coming off the street, working a 1/2 day and falling down and claiming a back injury, throwing workers comp off the scale. These are the problems business owners have in the good ole USA, we may be the biggest and baddest on the block but in a country run by lawyers, business owners have to watch their a**.


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## clearance (Mar 17, 2006)

TreeLady said:


> We don't have to replace them, anyone we have taken off the temp has stayed. We are growing, and that takes more crew.
> 
> We use the pimp temp to protect ourselves from the :censored: that are just looking to get on workers comp or disability. There are alot of them around here, they don't want to work. How are we supposed to get these choice guys short of stealing them from other companies. There just arn't alot around here, the ones we have gotten have been pure luck.
> 
> ...


Why don't you just pay $12 hr to start, its a decent wage, according to you. Must be luck to get guys for $9hr., you are right there. What do you not understand hiring and keeping people for a decent wage? You can afford $18 so what is the BFD? Head out of my ass-seems like you are the one with a problem, I have shown you the way, give me some thanks.


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## Redbull (Mar 17, 2006)

This is directly from the Us Dept of Labor website:

""Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (FLSA), as amended 
(29 USC §201 et seq.; 29 CFR Parts 510 to 794)

Who is Covered

The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) establishes standards for minimum wages, overtime pay, recordkeeping, and child labor. These standards affect more than 100 million workers, both full‑time and part‑time, in the private and public sectors.

The Act applies to enterprises with employees who engage in interstate commerce, produce goods for interstate commerce, or handle, sell, or work on goods or materials that have been moved in or produced for interstate commerce. For most firms, a test of not less than $500,000 in annual dollar volume of business applies (i.e., the Act does not cover enterprises with less than this amount of business). 

However, the Act does cover the following regardless of their dollar volume of business: hospitals; institutions primarily engaged in the care of the sick, aged, mentally ill, or disabled who reside on the premises; schools for children who are mentally, or physically disabled or gifted; preschools, elementary, and secondary schools and institutions of higher education; and federal, state, and local government agencies.

Employees of firms that do not meet the $500,000 annual dollar volume test may be covered in any workweek when they are individually engaged in interstate commerce, the production of goods for interstate commerce, or an activity that is closely related and directly essential to the production of such goods.

The Act covers domestic service workers, such as day workers, housekeepers, chauffeurs, cooks, or full‑time babysitters, if they receive at least $1,300 (2001) in cash wages from one employer in a calendar year, or if they work a total of more than eight hours a week for one or more employers.

An enterprise that was covered by the Act on March 31, 1990, and that ceased to be covered because of the increase in the annual dollar volume test to $500,000, as required under the 1989 amendments to the Act, continues to be subject to the overtime pay, child labor, and recordkeeping requirements of the Act.""

Since I do not meet the criteria here, these laws do not apply to me as a business owner, at least thats how it reads to me. So, amI missing something?


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## Gearhead1 (Mar 17, 2006)

Clearance and Treelady, I think one important feature is being overlooked in your arguement, and that is concerning the pay. Clearance is figuring things in Canadian dollars, and Treelady is on U.S. currency. The $9.00 (U.S.) she pays is probably equal to about $25.00 Canadian (he-he, okay an exaggeration there, but still the two are not equal). Treelady is quite right too in saying that the breaks are not required to be paid at all here in the U.S. We don't have the socialist set-up of our Canadian neighbors dictating what goes on down to the last detail. Her company's policies may sound like slim pickings to you Clearance, but I'm going to tell you as one that lives in the same region of the country as Treelady, that jobs are not so plentiful right now and she is paying above average wages for the type of work concerned. I'm not on either side of things, but just trying to show the reality of the situation.


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## clearance (Mar 18, 2006)

Gearhead1 said:


> Clearance and Treelady, I think one important feature is being overlooked in your arguement, and that is concerning the pay. Clearance is figuring things in Canadian dollars, and Treelady is on U.S. currency. The $9.00 (U.S.) she pays is probably equal to about $25.00 Canadian (he-he, okay an exaggeration there, but still the two are not equal). Treelady is quite right too in saying that the breaks are not required to be paid at all here in the U.S. We don't have the socialist set-up of our Canadian neighbors dictating what goes on down to the last detail. Her company's policies may sound like slim pickings to you Clearance, but I'm going to tell you as one that lives in the same region of the country as Treelady, that jobs are not so plentiful right now and she is paying above average wages for the type of work concerned. I'm not on either side of things, but just trying to show the reality of the situation.


Fair enough, the exchange is about $100CDN=$85US. Anyways, she can afford to pay temps $18 an hour, my point is that she could pay decent guys more than $9 an hr. to stick around and then she would not need to pay $18hr to temps. Does that make sense or not?


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## TreeLady (Mar 18, 2006)

Thank you for the clearing that up Gearhead1. Clearence, I understand your point about $18 for temps, but you are misunderstanding our situation. We do not hire temp people, we send the new guys we find and want to hire to our temp agency and they hire them for us. We do this for a few reasons, first if they are just stupid and don't listen or learn and we let them go they are not collecting unemployment from us, that is on the temp agency. Second, if they have motives to "hurt their back" to get on disability that is not on us but the temp agency. We are small and we can't afford to pay $18 an hour US for a groundworker, but we do it for a short time until we know what kind of person we are dealing with, and that they arn't going to sue us the first chance they get.


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## TreeLady (Mar 18, 2006)

And that $18 to the temp pimp includes insurance and payroll taxes that the $12 does not. (With workers insurance and taxes it's more like $15)


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## SmithEC (Mar 18, 2006)

TreeLady said:


> ... We do not hire temp people, we send the new guys we find and want to hire to our temp agency and they hire them for us ...



This is how the company I work for does business.

If I were a business owner, I'd go to he!! before I'd do business any way other than this. Some folks can talk a pretty good game and too many times it can be up to a couple of weeks before you see the real deal.

In our case, the agency requires three months of temp employment before our company can permanently hire. We also have the option of keeping them in a temp status for longer than that.

Temp agencies are just a good idea all the way around. Maybe a guy shows up and he doesn't like working for us. He can go back to the agency and have them find him something else and all the while he's not producing an employment record as long as his arm.

If you ever do use a temp agency to find people for you, make sure you don't use the agency that has a direct line to the employment security commission or whatever it's called in your state. They'll send you as many as 5 folks a day to interview and a fair number of those are just checking the block so they can continue to collect that unemployment. We tried that just once down here in our location and we got such things as the guy who went to a particular high school for four years yet he could not properly spell the name of the school.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 18, 2006)

Redbull said:


> You all our probably right, but at this time I have no employees. I asked my "accountant" (The person that does my taxes) if it was legal to pay my employess, when I get them, by the day instead of hourly. Her response was " You can pay them however you want, as long as you're withholding." Then she proceeded to tell me that because I am such a small business that labor laws do not apply. Maybe I misunderstood what she said.



That's could be, of course. This stuff ain't simple. And in one sense she's right - you can pay by the day, as long as what you pay by the day works out to the equivalent of minimum wage, and covers any overtime requirements (which vary from state to state).

There ARE a few laws that apply, or not, depending on the size of your business (a lot of OSHA stuff is like that), but basic stuff like minimum wage, breaks, and above all - *withholding* apply no matter what.

Of course, to make it even more complicated, there are some specialized fields that have a whole different set of rules even on some of this stuff.  

The biggest deal of all, though, is withholding, and that bites a lot of small businesses. They get the brainy idea that they can call someone a contractor and not have to do withholding or pay payroll taxes. *"Oh, aren't I brilliant! I found a loophole that the IRS never thought of!"*  

 

And they may get away with it for a while, even a few years. And the longer they 'get away' with it, the bigger the blow when the IRS notices what they're doing, and comes down with back taxes, penalties, and threats of jail time. Happens all the time.




Redbull said:


> The unfortunate thing is that it is very difficult to get sound advice from anyone in regards to running a business legally. It seems that everyone I talk to is grossly incompetent, including the city, the DOT, and the IRS. Im yet to get a straight answer from any of them, until the time comes to collect for fines.




You got that right. Our company used to have a VP of Human Resources that teaches HR at a major university. She didn't know basic labor law!  

All of this is why I agree with the thoughts posted above - hire through a temp agency, until you are big enough to hire an HR person full time, *and *pay an labor law attorney to review everything.


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## Redbull (Mar 18, 2006)

Blueridge, thanks for the comments. It's tough to run a legit business. If you notice though, even minimum wage and overtime requirements do not apply to me according to what their website says. Still confusing none the less.


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## havvey (Apr 18, 2006)

Nobody starts at the top and works down, we all start at the bottom and work up.
You are wrong well drilling is the only job you start at the top
:jawdrop:


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## Jack Green (May 1, 2006)

*fair days work for fair days pay*

Ive got more chance of pI..Ing In the queens handbag ! than ending up In south florida but If I dId I personaly wouldnt work with yer man treeminator , I think his going rate for a climber is about 7 dollars and a pickled egg oh an all the chips you can eat ,wood chips that is .


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## SRT-Tech (Jul 31, 2006)

clearance said:


> Fair enough, the exchange is about $100CDN=$85US. Anyways, she can afford to pay temps $18 an hour, my point is that she could pay decent guys more than $9 an hr. to stick around and then she would not need to pay $18hr to temps. Does that make sense or not?




actually the exchange rate now is DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR, plus or minus a couple of cents. so that $9 USD is about $10 CDN. :hmm3grin2orange:


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