# Free climbing?



## jimmyq (Nov 19, 2003)

perhaps a stupid question but, I am curious. I have been called by a customer to look at and prune a wind damaged Gleditsia. Damage was 2 years ago in mid crown area leaving the tree "fairly one sided"(I havent seen it yet), height of the tree is 25 to 30 feet (says Joe customer...)
Question 1: Am I allowed by ANSI and such to free climb this tree to do the pruning?
Question 2 : What fall protection or restraints should I have or employ?
Question 3: Where is Bob Wulkowicz these days, did he give up on all of us here?
Question 4: Will Mr. Maas tear up my post and tear a strip off me for asking this question?
Question 5: If I am not able or allowed to free climb, what are my options if I have no climbing gear or ropes?


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## Gord (Nov 20, 2003)

Hmm...common sense is a good place to start. Falling to the ground from a height of thirty feet is not something I put on my "fun things to do" list. I and many other experienced tree climbers work in Burnaby and GVRD daily. Take a day here and there and find out how it's done by observing fellows on the job, not reading. Once you have seen it done buy a copy of the Tree Climbers' Companion. It'll tell you all the basics and quite a few tricks to boot. Climbing trees is not something that can be properly learned from text, it takes practical experience. Arbormaster comes to the city often as well if you wish to go that route.


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## Koa Man (Nov 20, 2003)

I never free climb anything. I am tied in from the ground. I used to usually free climb about 10 ft. and then tie in. After falling about 10 ft. and receiving a compound facture on my wrist in 1989, I now tie in from the ground. I also know a guy who climbed a tree about 10 ft. up at the beach to spot fish to use his throw net. He fell and broke his back. He is in a wheelchair now.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Nov 20, 2003)

*
Question 1: Am I allowed by ANSI and such to free climb this tree to do the pruning?*
No, you can free climb a ladder to access the tree or look around.
*
Question 2 : What fall protection or restraints should I have or employ?*
You need to be secured with a rope so you can't fall, and you need two seperate tie in points if you are going to use a chain saw.
*
Question 3: Where is Bob Wulkowicz these days, did he give up on all of us here?*
I dunno.
*
Question 4: Will Mr. Maas tear up my post and tear a strip off me for asking this question?*
I won't tear you up for asking a question. If you come here and state it's safe to free climb, then I'll cut Kneejerk Bombas loose on you.
*
Question 5: If I am not able or allowed to free climb, what are my options if I have no climbing gear or ropes? *

Find someone with gear or buy some. It seems this is the field you want to work, for a few hundred bucks you can get some "top of the line" climbing gear and have it when you need it.


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jimmyq _
> * If I am not able or allowed to free climb, what are my options if I have no climbing gear or ropes? *


Option #1, sub it to a climber.
Option #2, buy the gear.
Option #3, somewhere in the DUH  category, use pole tools. A 30' tree can be pruned entirely from the ground with a 16' pole. I use pole tools to make all possible cuts before even putting on a saddle. Saves time, and from the ground is a better perspective for making many cuts anyway.

If you need to enter the mid-tree to make cuts poletools can't make, securing yourself at the top of a ladder is not hard.

ANSI is voluntary unless you are under a contract requiring compliance, so you're "allowed" to cut branches with your teeth if you want to..

Where has Mr. Wulkie gone? Dunno; has he found a friendlier clime on the UK board? :alien:

Re 10 foot falls, I had a guy cleaning gutters at my house fall off a ladder. Shattered heelbone, 3 months in cast and out of work. Being tied in is not a bad idea. There are many ways to advance a rope; "free climbing" should be relabeled "unsecured climbing", since only if you are restrained by a rope are you free to use your whole body for working.


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 20, 2003)

If you free climb, you could die. 




Then who'd take care of Suzie Q?


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## Jumper (Nov 20, 2003)

ANSI would have no juristiction in BC, though your provincial labour ministry likely has lots to say regarding this topic. Suggest a search of their site.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Nov 20, 2003)

*Re: Re: Free climbing?*



> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *...ANSI is voluntary unless you are under a contract requiring compliance, so you're "allowed" to cut branches with your teeth if you want to...
> 
> *



As the recognized standard, not following it opens up liability issuses. An insurance company could even refuse benifits in case of a claim.


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 20, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Free climbing?*



> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *As the recognized standard, not following it opens up liability issuses. *


Good point. It pays to follow the directions, or have a well-substantiated rationale for deviating from them.


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## jimmyq (Nov 20, 2003)

Thanks guys, points noted. I shall go look, prune with the new pole saw I need to buy and take care of it from the ground if I can, otherwise I will sub it to my usual referral company.


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## TREETX (Nov 21, 2003)

With every free climb, you can have a free fall. 

No thanks 

When I leave the ground I am tied in.


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## Joe (Nov 21, 2003)

One could also climb using a bowline-on-a-bight. If one did this for a couple of trees, they may make enough money to buy a saddle.

I don't like polesaws. I don't care what any1 says, I think the cuts made with these things suck.

Joe


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## Stumper (Nov 21, 2003)

Joe, You have already said that you don't care what anyone says but please consider----Guy has a reputation as a person who really cares about trees-he likes a polesaw. So do I. Polesaws don't HAVE to make crappy cuts. Sometimes I come down from a tree I've climbed and see a bad cut made with a handsaw from a difficult angle-I wind up fixing it with a polesaw!
Some of the most cost effective pruning that people can purchase is on young trees. Trees in which a climber can't access the places where the cuts should be. That is polesaw and polepruner territory. A small amount of $ spent on a 7-10 year old tree can save hundreds in corrective pruning in the future.:angel:


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## Joe (Nov 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> *Joe, You have already said that you don't care what anyone says...*



I wouldn't say that except in the case of using polesaws.



> *but please consider----Guy has a reputation as a person who really cares about trees-he likes a polesaw.*



My opinion of polesaw use and my opinion of Guy as an arborist are 2 seperate subjects. 



> *So do I.*



I don't. 



> *Some of the most cost effective pruning that people can purchase is on young trees. Trees in which a climber can't access the places where the cuts should be.*



Agreed. 



> *That is polesaw and polepruner territory.*



I use a pole pruner, a handsaw, and a chainsaw. No polesaw!



> *A small amount of $ spent on a 7-10 year old tree can save hundreds in corrective pruning in the future.:angel: *



Yes.

Joe


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Nov 22, 2003)

Polesaws can make good cuts, but for the most part they don't. 
Many a tree I've climbed after pole saw work was done that looked ok from the ground, then when you get up there you see the horrible cuts.
That's not to say I don't use one. If I have a large tree to deadwood and the salesman gave me a half hour to get the job done, I don't have time to climb to every tip. I will climb about 2/3s of the way out and get the rest with the poles saw.
I am aware that the cuts aren't great, but that's what you get with a polesaw. Some of the really small stuff even just gets snapped off. At that point it's mostly cosmetic anyway.
If the customer wants the best job that can be done without time constraints, no way will that include a polesaw.


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## NeTree (Nov 22, 2003)

I hate to state the obvious, but why are you bidding on tree work if you obviously don't even have the most basic equipment for it?


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## rbtree (Nov 22, 2003)

We've had this polesaw discussion many times. 

Joe, I'm casting no doubt on your abilities as a climber, and agility at accessing branch tips, nor would I dare do so about Berndt Strasser and others who eschew pole saw use. 


In the real world, many many trees simply do not have a structure that allows efficiency of work---unless a pole saw is used. 

As well, I must humbly disagree with the argument that correct cuts are hard to make with a pole saw. Often they allow very good positioning if one moves just a bit, so that the final cut can be made correctly. Not saying that I am perfect, far from it.... but heck, I can get in a hurry with a hand or chain saw and screw up a cut too. Then there are the occasional long conifer branches requiring shortening...sometimes just reaching them with a 14+ foot pole is tough, and so very hard to do without some rip occuring.

I think I'm as nimble ( if not quite as fast) as most good climbers at maneuvering throughout a canopy, but find that the work can be done much faster with a pole saw. And, in a nice shade tree, if one is careful, cuts can be made very cleanly and correctly. If not, then I climb out after the cut, if at all possible. So a very small percentage of cuts can end up being sloppy, especially if I get a little lazy or impatient, tired, or move too fast. Hey, no one is perfect, but that can apply to a hand saw cut too...( in shade trees, I do try to limit pole use.)

However, with conifer pruning, at least done to my specifications, it is darn near impossible to do without an extension. I would gladly challenge anyone to come prune a conifer, such as this one , as I require, which is branch lightening all the way to the tips, without a pole saw. Most likely the work could not be done completely, or it would take over twice as long.

Now I'm not talking about the idea that many conifers do not need thinning, which is often true. However, those that have developed huge, and heavy limbs, from age or previous topping, absolutely require branch lightening, often shortening, to reduce limb failure from wind or snow loading.


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## jimmyq (Nov 22, 2003)

Erik.
I was not intending to do any climbing work because of the obvious liability issues and because I haven't taken any training or such for it but, that being said I do need to make a living. I told the customer that I would come look at the tree and if it something I can handle (from the ground or short, tied in ladder) then I would give him an idea of cost and we could proceed, OR, I would hand him the business card of the company I always defer to for things that are beyond my insurance, capabilities and experience. I want to go and see the tree because I want to learn, I want to see what it looks like, see if I can visualize what to do in the tree from the ground so one day when/if I climb I will be more prepared to handle the situations I encounter. I asked the question to start this thread because I honestly didn't know if it was an acceptable practice to go up a tree freestyle monkeyman. I didn't think it was but wanted to hear you fellas talk it out a bit. As for my equipment, yes there are some things I am missing, I was recently layed off from my full time retail job and have been forced to make a living through my previously part time landscaping / pruning / design business. I have most tools that I need at this point except a truck ( an Impala trunk is really quite capable but not good to haul debris or topsoil) (if anyone is interested in a 2000 Impala LS- loaded etc please call me, I am looking for a mid 90's F-250 4x4 regular cab), a pole saw / pole pruner, chainsaw and chainsaw chaps. 

that got more wordy than intended....

ok, thanks again for the info guys, I am listening.


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## NeTree (Nov 22, 2003)

Making a living is one thing, getting in over your head is another. Don't take it as a personal attack, but...

Bear in mind that it has taken years of hard work and public education by professionals to raise the perception of arboriculture to what it is today. A higher standard if you will. Untrained and/or unskilled people running around with ladders and working from the trunk of their car can quickly lower that public perception of the industry from a legitimate profession to a quick-buck scheme that every Tom, ****, and Harry can get into.

Is there anyone you can work with who's willing to teach you how to climb/prune etc safely and properly?


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## FBerkel (Nov 22, 2003)

I'm with RB on the polesaw use.

Here's one point to consider: how many of you anti ps people never make a reduction cut one lateral lower than you would have liked, because climbing up would be too dangerous, or tiring (for old ferts like me)? I never use one from straight below, which leads to pigs ears, but from the next leader or branch over, you can frequently get a perfect angle on the cut.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 22, 2003)

A pole saw is a tool that can be used or abused, just like any other.

John Ball had some stats on fatalites in his talk for the TCI Expo. Seems that the majority of climber fatalites happend when recrotching. 

Instructors talk about the "what if" in free climbing; "What if you sneez", "What if you had a bad sandwitch and loose bodily control". "What if you cut yourself and flinch"...

Statistically, three points of contact are good for occasional use, but the odds are against you if you do it all the time.

Oh BTW, in the tree care industry (Residential/comercial and municiple) there are around 250,000 tree workers. Around 500 die each year.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 22, 2003)

On some trees that I am trimming I free climb to the top and set my rope, then rapel down and start working. Most of the time I am below 40-50 foot and the canapy is dense enough to have multiple routes to the top.

However I wouldn't run a chainsaw off the ground without being tied in to much can happen.


Carl


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 22, 2003)

Lumberjack,

Your sig reads:

God you put it up, God grant me the power to take it down, safely.

You seem to be asking God to put a hand underneath you when, not if, you fall. This could spin off into a really interesting religious discussion. Is it your God's responsibility to be there to take care of your mistakes? I'm more of a free-will thinker. It's my job to take care of myself. This is especially important if I ever make a conscious decision to do something unsafe. You have the "power" to not free climb, does that take your God off the hook to tend to your "safety"?

Dr. Ball speaks of the area above 40 feet in the trees as the "Dead Zone" Are you familiar with that connection to Himilayan mountaineering? Above a certain alitude the human body deteriorates. For tree climbers, 40 feet is not a survivable fall. Even if you were to be lucky enough to bounce off branches on the way down, this water filled bag of bones we call a body will be destroyed.

It pains me to hear people boast about their disregard for simple, basic, safety practices. Setting an ascent line or double lanyarding adds only minutes to a climb. There's no profit being made in the hospital or the morgue.

The only rule is there is an exception.

Let's set aside workplace rules like ANSI Z133 for just a moment. Aren't there some higher rules that we should abide by? How about the responsibility we all have to our family and friends? If we are killed or injured, the effect is felt by others too.

Tom


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 22, 2003)

I'm tied in 99% of the time, but I have no problem with the 3 point system.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 22, 2003)

Why would I fall, I free climb only when I can do so saftely. If I can't easily climb it then I set the rope from the ground. I meant that as no boast, and I am aware of the 40 foot death zone, which was a recent article in TCI mag. 

Furthermore if you don't have confidence in free climbing any tree, then by all means use the double lanyard technique, I use a lanyard to tie in when I am setting the rope. But if you feel that you must be tied in to set a rope or do anything off the ground that makes me think that you have become to dependent on your equipment to perform even the simpilist of tasks. When you are climbing up to the attic, do you tie in? If you are climbing a ladder on/ in a building, would you tie in. I have confidence that I can support my weight on a stationary ladder, if I am just going up or down, not working. 

How do you clean your gutters?

You said is it my God's responsiblity? First off there is only one God, and there are many gods, see the difference. I think that when I die, I die, it won't matter if I am tied in with 3 lanyards, when my time is up, it is up. That isn't to say that I think that I am invencible until then, and I do practice many saftey procedures and techique. I fill comfortable climbing some trees, mostly oak and the like where the canopy is dense enough to easly climb. 

Yes, if I died then it would effect many more people than just myself.


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## rborist1 (Nov 22, 2003)

:Eye:


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Nov 22, 2003)

We had a laugh at our house the other day. Three of us slipped and fell on the carpeted steps, in three seperate incidences. 
Humidity, rushed lifestyle, coincidence, I don't know. 
It applies to this thread, I think, because you can slip and fall anytime.
If you tie in 99% of the time, then you slip and fall during that 1%, you will feel pretty stupid for tying in all those other times and still falling to your death.
I can't help but think back to Tex's abuse of MB. He is like a train wreck.


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *
> I can't help but think back to Tex's abuse of MB. He is like a train wreck. *



Yes, that must be why I'm going into my third decade of treework.
One of these days I'll be as good as you guys. 
I can only hope!


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## rborist1 (Nov 22, 2003)

:Eye:


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Nov 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *Yes, that must be why I'm going into my third decade of treework.
> *



I know a guy who is on his third decade of getting drunk every day at a bar, and driving home. Not one DWI.

This leads me to believe that it is perfectly safe to drink and drive, at least if you are one of those rare individuals like this guy I know and using MB's almost infallible logic.


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 22, 2003)




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## rahtreelimbs (Nov 22, 2003)

Seems like MB lives on a planet that no one here wants to visit..............


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 22, 2003)

We're missing one person....

Must be asleep.


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## rahtreelimbs (Nov 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *We're missing one person....
> 
> Must be asleep. *




Must be your clone. But then...........


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Hoffman _
> *Must be your clone. But then........... *





TWO OF US!!!


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## Stumper (Nov 23, 2003)

I use to freeclimb a lot in my youth. I was working on low, spreading trees that were easy to "walk up". I felt more secure than if I were climbing a well-set ladder. I WAS more secure than on a ladder but...........I discovered lanyards and quit freeclimbing. I hadn't discovered split tail systems yet so I was unsecured at times when resetting my lanyard but not while moving. Above 30' I would untie and retie my climbing line leapfrogging with my lanyard so that I was never unsecured and not more than 3' above my tie in when recrotching. It slowed me down but I felt it was necessary for safety. With split-tails and a lanyard there is no sense in freeclimbing IMO. Funny thing about accidents-they usually happen unexpectedly and over some stupid detail that could have been dealt with easily. I still freeclimb occassionally-up to having my tootsies 4 feet above ground level. Above that level even an apple merits a saddle and tie in!:angel:


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## mikecross23 (Nov 23, 2003)

'Bout 3 yrs ago, before I started educating myself in tree care methods, I was in the very tip top of a small pine. At about 65 feet up I unclipped and was flipping my buckstrap around the next branch when I heard a crack. Instantly the limb I was standing on fell out from underneath me and I started to fall. I was lucky. My right gaff (wasn't burried in the wood) slid down the tree about a foot and stuck and I got my left arm around the pole saving my life and changing my climbing forever.

I DO NOT come untied from the tree anymore. My opinion on free climbing is DO NOT do it. It ain't worth it. I'm too young to die. 

Be safe you's guys!

-Mike-


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> * For tree climbers, 40 feet is not a survivable fall. \
> * Maybe so, maybe not. I fell 35 feet onto a driveway along with the part of the tree I was tied to. Had a beautiful 6 months vacation courtesy of WI. Still, I wouldn't recommend it.
> *It pains me to hear people boast about their disregard for simple, basic, safety practices.
> ...


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## rbtree (Nov 23, 2003)

I ran into an old acquaintance recently. He has the misfortune to fall 90 feet out of an alder some 20 years ago. He landed in the soft forest floor and survived. It took him years before he went back up into tall trees.

A few years before that, on the way back to the shop, he had been drinking, and the crew wouldn't ride with him. As well, he had picked up a girl, perhaps a hooker. While making the big turn off the freeway to the shop, whilst getting a blow job, he rolled the chip truck. Feeling chagrined, he went to the owner's house, and pleaded to keep his job. It worked. True story!

Another true story, just a half mile south of that location, when I worked for that company, someone took a pot shot our chip truck from the side...from the looks of the impact, dead center on the windshield, it could have been double ought buck shot.

Open this link only at your own risk...it is "risque"

http://flash.trojangames.co.uk/tgames/movies/movie2.html


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 23, 2003)

Th fatality rate per thousand in our industry is worse the firefighters.

Climbing trees has enough inherant risks to it.

Part of John Ball's talk is that if we can remove a few risky practices from our regular procedures, as a group, we can greatly impact the annual death rate.

To's probably got the link, but If I remember right, unsecured climbing ranks higher in cause of death then electrical contact. This includes unsecured retie and free climbing.

Yes there are exceptions to rules, ANSI will allow free climbing if it is safer then not.

He also defined the "* fail safe *" concept. It does not mean that it is safe from failure, but that in the case of failure you have a high probability of being safe. 

Maybe my math is off, but if the rate of death in the population of 250,000 is 500 that means a 500:1 chance of dieing every year. Why would you not want to do everything you can to beat the odds?


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## rborist1 (Nov 23, 2003)

:Eye:


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Nov 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> * Minutes add up, time is $. *




If time is money, then is laying in a hospital free? Even if you die, there is still a huge cost to family, friends, and society.

A thousand climbers save a minute or two by free climbing and only one falls to a career ending fate, are those few saved minutes worth it? I think not, and that's assuming you buy into the fact that freeclimbers are faster than those that follow the industry standards, and I don't for one muninte believe that. 

The best and fastest climbers I know, all follow basic safety rules. I have, on the other hand, seen lots of climbers who thought they were the best, mostly because they are isolated from true experts, and they just didn't understand that basic safety is as important as any other aspect of climbing. For example, you can't say, "I am one of the best climbers around." and then spike on trims. Get it?



> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> * Rich, mb is not alone and has no clone. Conformism is un-
> American; it's for lemmings and losers.*



Are you suggesting that we not follow industry safety standards because it would be conforming????


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## Landman (Nov 23, 2003)

"The Tree Climbers' Companion"
Just wondering if this book does exist, It was mentioned earlier in the post. If it does exist how do I get a copy?


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## Lumberjack (Nov 23, 2003)

Tree Climber's Companion
Sherrill part #16217 $15
1-800-525-8873

Carl


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 23, 2003)

A trivia question:

Does anyone know why The Tree Climber's Companion was written in the first place? Can you trace it to it's origins?

It's curious that Landman asks about the book in this thread at this time. 

Tom


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> * If I remember right, unsecured climbing ranks higher in cause of death then electrical contact.
> * How many of these climbing fatalities are homeowners or kids? Where do these stats come from?
> *Yes there are exceptions to rules, ANSI will allow free climbing if it is safer then not.
> ...


Everything, starting...where? First brain buckets, next chaps, next maybe full-body armor. Taking an extra 20 minutes to set a rope above a ladder instead of just climbing the darn thing like painters and roofers and other unskilled technicians? If you can't climb a ladder with confidence, then ya gotta flip every time.. NOnsense, imho.
We each take steps to increase safety according to our abilities and experience. Just because something works for you does not mean it will work for all.
* MM: If time is money, then is laying in a hospital free?
* Definitely not; last time I laid there it cost $130,000 for 3 weeks. Spleen healed slower than ribs. I'll be REAL careful next time I cut a tree under tension, but I'm not going to dress like Robo-Cop just to be safer.


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 23, 2003)




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## rahtreelimbs (Nov 23, 2003)

MB, this is not a dig on you in any way, I am curious if you wear any kind of head protection?


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *Everything, starting...where? First brain buckets, next chaps, next maybe full-body armor. Taking an extra 20 minutes to set a rope above a ladder instead of just climbing the darn thing like painters and roofers and other unskilled technicians? If you can't climb a ladder with confidence, then ya gotta flip every time.. NOnsense, imho.
> We each take steps to increase safety according to our abilities and experience. Just because something works for you does not mean it will work for all. *





I wuz agreeing with Guy, Tom.


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## NeTree (Nov 23, 2003)

Why do these threads always have to turn into tit-for-fat, swinging-**** pi$$ing contests?


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Why do these threads always have to turn into tit-for-fat, swinging-**** pi$$ing contests? *



My thoughts exactly...


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Hoffman _
> *MB, this is not a dig on you in any way, I am curious if you wear any kind of head protection? *


What, Rich indulge in a dig?? Naaahh, never happen.:angel: 
As you can see, MB uses not only head but eye protection. So he sees well enough to set his own path, while thinking well enough to ask for and listen to the experience of others. 
He doesn't just follow like lambs and lemmings, without thinking for himself. Is saying that he freeclimbs 1% of the time grounds for ridicule?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Nov 24, 2003)

He's tieing in 99% of the time, he's so close, only one more percent of the time and he's covered. 
To me it doesn't make sense. It's like saying I have safe sex 99% of the time, or I don't spike on trims 99% of the time, or when I clamp down on a vice really tight, I take my balls out first 99% of the time(there goes the testoserone).

It's onlly because we care about MB and others reading here.

What if your son or daughter was starting to climb, would you teach him or her to tie in most of the time, or all of the time?

I can think of very few people who come here and post, who don't start to change their work habits for the better. Safety is important. Beating your chest and bragging about how unsafe you work is wrong. Nothing to do with lemmings.


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 24, 2003)

After reviewing this thread I can see that MB is attracting the wrath when Lumberjack is the one who is freeclimbing. The barbs should be shared with the right people 

Tom


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 24, 2003)

Thank you.


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## TREETX (Nov 24, 2003)

It amazes me that people argue FOR using unsafe techniques and even when presented with the data, claim they are not unsafe.

Big reflection on maturity and intelligence.

Just curious but why it LJ bragging about freeclimbing. IF I recally past threads, he was mentioning that he is a chunky boy.

Not that free climbing ever makes sense, but it really doesn't make sense if yer a big boy.

I also stay tied in because I think I owe it to my crew to keep them from being stuck by a 170lb falling me.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *On some trees that I am trimming I free climb to the top and set my rope, then rapel down and start working...
> Carl *



I meant that as no boast, therefore it can't be bragging. 

I will post a pic of a tree that I climbed later today.

It isn't that I am saying that it is safe, it is just easy. That said I think that I also stated that I use a lanyard when setting the rope and I also meant if I were at a limb, that I couldn't get around, then I would use a lanyard. I also ensinuated that if I didn't feel safe then I would climb it like normal.

Carl


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## TREETX (Nov 24, 2003)

By bragging, I meant freely advertising your stupidity.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 24, 2003)

Oh, then I guess I bragged again by misunderstanding you.


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TREETX _
> *By bragging, I meant freely advertising your stupidity. *


 ANSI 133.9.1.2 2) states that only when branches are too thick to advance a lanyard or rope is freeclimbing acceptable. There is a little room for interpretation on what's possible, but overall it's a no-no.
TreeeTx and the rest of the jury are so smart they can judge others' intelligence and intentions from a few words? Why not give the kid a chance to talk details before  ?

Maybe he is not far off from ANSI, and could be brought a lot closer with honey than vinegar.


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## TREETX (Nov 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *TreeeTx and the rest of the jury are so smart they can judge others' intelligence and intentions from a few words? Why not give the kid a chance to talk details before  ?
> 
> *



I wasn't judging anybody guy - just judging a practice. Free climbing is dangerous. There was no 

A few words?? Was this his first post 



> Why do these threads always have to turn into tit-for-fat, swinging-**** pi$$ing contests?



I should know better than to chime in on page 5 of a pissing contest. I'm out. Happy pissing and don't forget to flush!!


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## rborist1 (Nov 24, 2003)

:Eye:


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## Dan F (Nov 30, 2003)

Not trying to revive an old(er) thread, just catching up.

Carl, when you have one of these in a few years, you will understand why so many here think it is *SO* important to work safely and come home at night!


Dan


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dan F _
> *Carl, when you have one of these in a few years, you will understand why so many here think it is SO important to work safely and come home at night!
> *


I have four of those (none as beautiful as Lilah though), but they do not motivate me toward overkill on safety, like always tying in before climbing ladder or never free-climbing.


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## Tom Dunlap (Dec 1, 2003)

Guy,

Where is the post that suggested tieing in while ascending a ladder? Now, working on a ladder is another thing. Then Z133 requires a tie in. Just what the difference between ascending and working isn't defined.

I think there is a huge difference between following safety rules at you chosen level and saying that anyone who follows higher safety levels is over board. 

Tom


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 1, 2003)

When I worked offshore anything over 4 feet required a harness/lanyard. At times that was kinda silly. I remember wiping down the bulkhead all geared up on a ladder

Then, when a boat had to be unloaded, we were swung over the side standing on a man-carrier with nothing but our grip on the net. No lanyard or nothing, 175 ft plus over the Gulf of Mexico.

It was so cool! I LOVED that!


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *Guy,
> 
> Where is the post that suggested tieing in while ascending a ladder?
> ...


I choose to refer to ANSI and operate at the level my skills and limitations require, ready to document a reason for any variance. Anyone can exceed ANSI and is free to do so. . But that does not put them on a higher level of safety or professionalism or anything else..
(If it looks overboard to me I'm free to say so and they're free to ignore that). But just as varying from ANSI shouldn't be done without a good reason, nor should exceeding it, imvho.
Butch 175' over water doesn't count because it's...over water. Gotta watch for those belly flops though, huh?


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## Tom Dunlap (Dec 1, 2003)

It all depends on how hard or soft the water is. Since the Gulf is salty, the water must be soft. Had you done the same over Lake Superior, the water would be hard so you would have to have fall protection on.

Tom


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## Ax-man (Dec 1, 2003)

I'm going to steer this thread a little of course, but still stay in context as to why we should be safety conscience at all times, not only for ourselves, also our loved ones.

Climber has full knowlege of ANSI.

Enters tree with all safety gear and knowledgeable in it's use and proper application but choses not to use it.

Free climbs into and past 40 ft. no survive fall zone, slips and falls from the death zone and doesn't make it.

Witnesses on ground tell proper authorities climber was not using any safety gear.

Question???

Would insurance pay off saying it was an accident or would they say climber was negligent and balk on payment to the bereaved spouse and family????


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## Tom Dunlap (Dec 2, 2003)

An insurance agent once said that insurance companies don't have a "stupid clause" to let them off the hook. They would pay.

If they could prove that it was a suicide the rules are different.

Tom


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## Koa Man (Dec 2, 2003)

If you are talking about life insurance, they would pay if the policy has been in force for at least 2 years. All the life insurance policies I looked at had a 2 year restriction on suicides.


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ax-man _
> *
> Free climbs into and past 40 ft. no survive fall zone, slips and falls from the death zone and doesn't make it.
> *


I'm not sure this 40' line would even be noticed let alone applied, by an ins.co. or anyone else. this seems to be an arbitrary number that popped into someone's head and has some scant data and was spoken in public at an expo. Now it's supposed to be real special? 

ANSI allows free climbing past 40' if the tree is thickly branched. Free climbing at 39'--or 29' or 19'-- in some trees would be patently idiotic and yes would be the act of someone with a suicide complex.

Using any referent outside of ANSI just tends to make these standards less relevant. The whole point was to agree; throwing out arbitrary nonstandards and giving them spooky names like "death zone" works against that effort. Will we be motivated by knowledge or fear??


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## tjk (Dec 2, 2003)

Our policy is to be tied in at all times, excluding little one step up crab apples. This policy has been in place and enforced for 3 years and we have had no complaints from the climbers or the owner, production has not suffered, it has gone up, as the workers needed to learn how to use thier tools to their best advantage. Being secured at all times is very doable with the equipment avaliable today.


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## jimmyq (Dec 6, 2003)

Ok, so I won't be free climbing. I passed on the job that started this thread in consideration of safety etc. I am the owner of a slightly used butt strap saddle courtesy of a smoking deal from Stumper ( even threw in a lanyard pretied with a hip prussik). I have my climbers companion on the coffee table and am reading and re-reading it to get the good thoughts going, soon I will go find some low branches to climb in and get used to the saddle and the technique. Thanks again for all your input and advice guys. Just for the record I am no longer working from the trunk of my car I managed to find a truck and traded off the car, got soaked on the deal but it needed to be done, life goes on.


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## jimmyq (Dec 6, 2003)

BTW I am strangely proud to have started a thread with 1600 views and 5 pages of responses, is that weird?


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## Joe (Dec 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jimmyq _
> *BTW I am strangely proud to have started a thread with 1600 views and 5 pages of responses, is that weird? *



No, absolutely not. 

Read these words as nothing more than a p.o.v. I see people who've never done tree work that decide they're going to get into the business without on the job guidance are biting off way more than they could chew. The world in the trees is much different than one sees from the ground or through others experiences. I've never truely seen a person do it with help only by reading. 

Joe


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## Tom Dunlap (Dec 6, 2003)

Last weekend I got together with Jeff Jepson for breakfast and then we did a small pruning job for an Uncle of his. While we were pruning Jeff told me that was the 9th anniversary of his accidental fall. 

When ever I think of falls, I think of how different my world would be if Jeff wouldn't have survived the fall. I think of what his kids looked like nine years ago and what they have turned into nine years later. 

On another level, what would arboriculture be like had Jeff not written the Companion? Now that it's available in German and Spanish even more climbers can learn about good climbing practices.

Guy,

this seems to be an arbitrary number that popped into someone's
head and has some scant data and was spoken in public at an expo.

It's not an arbitrary number but its close to accurate. It's easier to speak of 40' than 37.75. Its more conceptual than exact.

ANSI allows free climbing past 40' if the tree is thickly branched.

WRONG for Z133.1-2000. Take a look at 9.1.2 (2)

"While ascending a tree where the density of branches growing from the stem prevents the arborist from crotcing the arborist climbing line or work-positioning lanyard through the branches, then and only then, is the three-point climbing technique acceptable."

If you choose to free climb, that's your priveledge. I'd be really sad to ever hear that you had an accident from free climbing. Dismissing the practice of being secured isn't good practice.

Tom


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## Tom Dunlap (Dec 6, 2003)

Jimmyq,

This shows how important the issue is to climbers.

Take a look at the list by Views:


Tips and tricks ( 1 2 3 )
topnotchtree
96
3115


Falling a Big One ( 1 2 )
rbtree
61
2805


My First Decent Sized Tree ( 
1 2 )
Lumberjack
45
2593

Handsaws vs chainsaws? ( 1
2 3 )
MasterBlaster
119
2416

Free climbing? ( 1 2 )
jimmyq
77
1710 



Milling blood red box elder 
Tom Dunlap
22
1399

11-1

I'm stunned that my post on the box elder is that popular.

Tom


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *
> ANSI: "While ascending a tree where the density of branches growing from the stem prevents the arborist from crotcing the arborist climbing line or work-positioning lanyard through the branches, then and only then, is the three-point climbing technique acceptable."
> 
> ...


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *I'm stunned that my post on the box elder is that popular.
> *


I'm stunned if no one is out there right now, wounding boxelder to make the wood turn red. Sounds like a financially lucrative way of managing a despised species.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 6, 2003)

I LOVE my Big Shot!!!  I've had it only a couple of weeks now and I get better every time I use it. Its already saved me a lot of climbing. Like my trusty Gibbs, I'll never go without a BS again!

Alas, I do body thrust. I don't see what the big deal is about it, ain't nutten to it.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 6, 2003)

It's best to have all the tools at your disposal, and know when to use what.
I mostly throw my bag, but use the bigshot for harder shots. Some trees I can just look at and know it'll be faster to climb and set the line.
I do some work for a guy, who had a die hard fling and zinger work for him for a while. Sometimes it worked great, but his guy didn't know when to quit. Even though the guy was a great climber, his production was way off, always futzing with his fancy tools.
That is where the fling and zing guys sometimes lose, they gotta learn what works best and when.

I don't really care about this topic, I just want to build Jimmy's thread.


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *most of us have gotten just a tad more efficient with the BigShot after a year's practice.
> *Yeah, I have too; got one right after you left. It's very useful on some trees, but not on most if you are proficient with other ascension technology like ladders , monkeyfist, polesaw. If you don't want to use those and fling on almost every tree that's your business. Maybe we can have a TCC of our own and time our ascent on a range of trees.
> *you cling to your backwards, inefficient methods. *


 Pitiful, isn't it?
You're quick and nimble and flinging may be more accurate and coiling may be faster, but still I think the backwards methods would get me to the top faster on average. If it doesn't I'll enjoy the ascent more as I stop and smell the lichens


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## jimmyq (Dec 7, 2003)

thanks Mike, you're an ego booster.


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## Stumper (Dec 7, 2003)

Go Paul! Have you done the dangle yet?


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## Ax-man (Dec 7, 2003)

I got no problem with with being secured at all times while accending .

I have a problem every once in a while of not being able to be tied in with the lanyard every time while making a chain saw cut, due to being in an odd position that can hinder you or run the risk of cutting the lanyard. 

Any one else run into this type of situation and willing to fess up they can't always follow the rules all the time.


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ax-man _
> *I have a problem every once in a while of not being able to be tied in with the lanyard every time while making a chain saw cut, due to being in an odd position that can hinder you or run the risk of cutting the lanyard.
> *


The standard is to be tied in twice, not tied in with a short lanyard, when making a chainsaw cut. To avoid hindrance, a longer lanyard or a short climbing line can be used to double secure.

This standard is one I pay attention to for safety reasons as much or even more than the one that says when the three-point technique is OK. Also using a short line makes redirects so much easier, to get into a good position to make a clean cut with any saw. Good tip reduction pruning is often impossible without use of a short line and a telescoping polesaw/pruner.


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## Tree Machine (Dec 7, 2003)

*tying in twice*

I didn't used to tie in twice every time I fired up the saw, but I've modified my technique to to do so at least almost all the time. Now, though, I am very aware and self criticize myself if I'm only secured at one point (on rope, w/ no flipline).

You may want to try a flipline with safety snaps at both ends. It allows more tie-in versatility, more possible tie-in configurations for different situations, and the freedom and level of tree gymnastics you demand. -TM-


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## jimmyq (Dec 7, 2003)

Stumper, not yet, have to wait till after Christmas and buy myself some climbing rope, after that, "See you at the top!"


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 7, 2003)

Doing TDs I tie in twice. Always.


Trimming? Never. I may use my lanyard as an additional aid to positioning myself.


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## Ax-man (Dec 7, 2003)

Guy,

You misunderstood me. I'm always tie in with the climbing line, it's being tied in twice, all the time, for every chain saw cut is where I have a problem every once in a while. 

I am very conscience of the rules of being tied in twice while making a chain saw cut. I have pretty much broken myself of those early day habits of not tieing in twice when using a chain saw. But there are a few times I break the rule, but try to figure out a way to do it right should it come up in the future.

TM

I've tried the two ended snap lanyard, didn't really care for it first time out. Maybe I'll give it a whirl again. 

I've also toyed with the idea of the 20 to 25 ft lanyard. I use a 12 ft. now, but have been using all the length of it to help gain more mobility on limbs, I can see where the longer length can be an advantage in the right tree.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 7, 2003)

So the reason you guys have such long lanyards is to use it as a 2nd climb line? Knot and everything?

I've always just used the tail of my rope.


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## Tom Dunlap (Dec 7, 2003)

This is one of the rules that makes more sense to follow because it just makes good sense than becase its written in the Z133.

Jeff Jepson was doing some minor pruning when the saw jumped and cut his line. If he would have had a second tie in he wouldn't have fallen and we might not have the Tree Climber's Companion now. 

I find it much easier to use a long lanyard than to pull up the tail of my rope. If you use an access line to get into the tree you could hang the second, short rope, from the access line along with the chain saw and retrieve it for the few times either are needed. No need to drag heavy gear around.

Read 7.2.8:
Arborists shall use a second point of attachment[work positioning lanyard or double-crotched rope] when operating a chainsaw in a tree, unless the employer demonstrates that a greater hazard is posed by using the second point of attachment while operating chain saws in that particular situation.

So, it's only the employer that can allow climbers to not use the second tie in. It's encouraging to hear so many people pausing and considering when they opt to not use a second attachment.

This situation is approached much differently in the UK. Along with their Training and Assessment program they are taught how to position themselves if they find that they need to be single attached. That said, there are only RARE instances when a climber can really say that a second tie in will be exposed to "...a greater hazard..." I'd like to know if anyone can share what they would call a "greater hazard" in order to slip through the loophole.

Tom


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## Ax-man (Dec 7, 2003)

M B 

That is the advantage I'm seeing.

Double crotching requires pulling rope, making bowline and taut line bridge, then you have to untie the whole mess.

Double crotching has it's place no doubt, but the long lanyard makes more sense, not to mention speed and ease of set up.

Unless your doing some thing different with the tail of your rope??


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ax-man _
> *
> 
> Unless your doing some thing different with the tail of your rope?? *



Nope, thats pretty much how I do it. Retrieving the tail is not much of a problem because I climb mostly with my short rope. Untieing the 'mess' ain't nothing.

I hardly ever use my 120' rope anymore.


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## Joe (Dec 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> * I'd like to know if anyone can share what they would call a "greater hazard" in order to slip through the loophole.
> 
> Tom *



A tree that is hung in another tree. 

Joe


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> * I climb mostly with my short rope. I hardly ever use my 120' rope anymore. *


Me neither! The short rope works well, but if there's a doubt the big rope's tied on the tail or snapped on my side.

Hey Axman I know you're always tied in. Sorry if I was confusing. Happens a lot.

And Tom I can't think of a second tie-in creating a hazard. Sometimes you have to move away from a cut, so a short lanyard will keep you where you don't want to be. But you can always use a longer rope for a second tie-in.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Dec 7, 2003)

i would think that even 'free climbing' that someone helping on belay, can make sense outta popping a line in, let alone being sure you're going home in your bed that night as stated.


When needing a quick ditchable situation, cut and slide behind something as hinge steers etc.; but then i usually go 1/2 legal and choke lanyard in rather than basket giving more reach to 19' lanyard, or choke Lifeline redirect sling in, then lanyard in single leg support position; giving me 20' of leash, not as good as basket support of lanyard, but better than nothing, when can't on the spot, figure out how to safely follow book. In Joe's scenario, i've gotten bucket, passed or put in 2 lines. 

1 trick i found is to lace lanyard under horizontal etc. log standing on, set, tighten up with knees bent, then straighten legs to give good stable support against the very tightened lines compressing me into log. 

Lanyard and snap, also good at 'Boomeranging' back around to you, can also catch/deliver lines to you as it does. Aluminum snap has enough throw weight for me, unlike aluminum carabiners.


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## Tree Machine (Dec 9, 2003)

*Just did this a couple times today*



> but then i usually go 1/2 legal and choke lanyard in rather than basket giving more reach


I do this fairly regularly, but only when I don't expect to actually put any weight on the chokered flipline. It's there for a second tie-in, not necessarily a suspension point. Flipping the lanyard around an adjacent limb and clipping it back to itself has its place amongst your tie-in strategies.

Since chainsaws are right-handed, and if your cut will be done off the right side of your body, this is where a double-ended flipline comes in handy - do as above, but first unclip it from the right side D, and clip onto the left. That way if you have to make a terminal reach, the flipline's not coming across your belly, twisting you left and robbing you of a belly's length of lanyard. -TM-


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## jimmyq (Dec 11, 2003)

ok, so I snuck into the store and got me a 50 foot length of 1/2" -16 strand and a 10 foot length of prussik cord (8mm accessories cord). should be short enough rope to keep me from going too high. Staring at my climbers companion practicing my knots, hope to get a dangle in on the weekend at my parents place in their london plane or out back in the Linden.. also bought a pole pruner/saw (not the zubat pole  , thats for spring when I have some money..) so I can borrow an orchard ladder and take care of the small gleditsia that started this whole thread for me. thanks again for all the input folks !


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## Gord (Dec 11, 2003)

second tie in a hazard? here's some pics. admittedly a hazardous thing to do in the first place. bypass cut and a solid jump on top. i'm tied in about 15' in front of me and below me in the first pic is very steep bank. about a 30' swing.

first second


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## tjk (Dec 11, 2003)

Thier has been times I have felt having my lanyard on possed a threat as I had no escape route, but this is very rare.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 11, 2003)

Doesn't ANSI require the double tie-in, but offers thoe out for when the "OSHA defined responsibel person" determines it is safer to not tie in?

Same with one-handing a chainsaw. it puts the onus on management for the safety issue.


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