# Best hinge wood



## Haplo (Apr 13, 2020)

What species would you put on your top 10 list of best hinging wood, and what species have the poorest quality hinge wood?


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## Rob Stafari (Apr 13, 2020)

Best hinge wood around here... birch

Worst hinge wood around here... punky boxelder. Don't even need a saw, just get the throwine over it and pull.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 13, 2020)

Douglas Fir, possibly world champ hinge wood (in my less then humble opinion)

Cotton Weed (black popular) around here is the worst, brittle at best, unpredictable always, and chair prone, not to mention the massive weak limbs dropping on you from at least 100' Hates its


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## catbuster (Apr 13, 2020)

Douglas Fir is awesome. Poplar is bad, big Sycamore trees usually have their hinge heart rotted, often completely out leaving a void. Gotta be really careful with them as they have a tendency to collapse in on themselves.


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## TheDarkLordChinChin (Apr 14, 2020)

Spruce and Fir have good hinge wood in my experience. Willow and hawthorn can be a bollocks though.


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## fool skip (Apr 14, 2020)

Doug fir best. Cedar worse. A bunch of that shade tree crap is bad but I consider them weeds, not trees.


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 16, 2020)

I have crossed a couple of three continents. I would say down in South America and there is a tree the natives called Abbydabbybowywowy. 
That chit is the King of swing


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## TheDarkLordChinChin (May 2, 2020)

I have cut spruce trees that were completely hooped over, 80 feet of wood with the top almost touching the ground again and the tree did not barberchair with a standard back cut.


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## madhatte (May 3, 2020)

Douglas-fir has very long and strong fibers and is very forgiving. I feel very privileged to have learned to cut on it. Worst I've cut has already been noted above, sycamore, with its short, weak, brittle fibers. I am also not a fan of cottonwood, or red alder.


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## northmanlogging (May 3, 2020)

madhatte said:


> Douglas-fir has very long and strong fibers and is very forgiving. I feel very privileged to have learned to cut on it. Worst I've cut has already been noted above, sycamore, with its short, weak, brittle fibers. I am also not a fan of cottonwood, or red alder.


aw come on, alder is fun, it holds well enough to allow some stupidity with swinging, but you have that super chair prone to make it interesting lol...


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## Haplo (May 3, 2020)

would anyone put shagbark hickory near the top of their list?


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## TheDarkLordChinChin (May 3, 2020)

Never heard of it.


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## catbuster (May 3, 2020)

Haplo said:


> would anyone put shagbark hickory near the top of their list?



It’s the best of hardwood trees in the U.S in my opinion. It’s just not close to western evergreen softwood species like Douglas Fir, Ponderosa Pine & even Alder and western red Cedar. I think part of it has to do with the trees themselves, leans and back weight from huge, expansive crowns pull hardwood fibers multiple directions and cause the grain structure to grow... Interestingly, to say the least. The hinges break earlier due to shorter fibers and extra stress with multiple loadings. A lot of eastern and midwestern fallers use the conventional “farmer” face that doesn’t help things in comparison to the guys west of the Rockies that predominately use a Humboldt and gapped faces and that has huge effects as to how the hinge acts as the tree falls.

@TheDarkLordChinChin (Hickory Species) I would bet some of your wood tool handles are made of it.


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## TheDarkLordChinChin (May 3, 2020)

I have heard of hickory, just not shagbark hickory.


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## TheDarkLordChinChin (May 3, 2020)

catbuster said:


> It’s the best of hardwood trees in the U.S in my opinion. It’s just not close to western evergreen softwood species like Douglas Fir, Ponderosa Pine & even Alder and western red Cedar. I think part of it has to do with the trees themselves, leans and back weight from huge, expansive crowns pull hardwood fibers multiple directions and cause the grain structure to grow... Interestingly, to say the least. The hinges break earlier due to shorter fibers and extra stress with multiple loadings. A lot of eastern and midwestern fallers use the conventional “farmer” face that doesn’t help things in comparison to the guys west of the Rockies that predominately use a Humboldt and gapped faces and that has huge effects as to how the hinge acts as the tree falls.
> 
> @TheDarkLordChinChin (Hickory Species) I would bet some of your wood tool handles are made of it.



You think a humboldt is better for hardwoods than a conventional? You dont think the fibers being forced to break earlier leads to more barber chairs?
Just curious.


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## catbuster (May 3, 2020)

TheDarkLordChinChin said:


> You think a humboldt is better for hardwoods than a conventional? You dont think the fibers being forced to break earlier leads to more barber chairs?
> Just curious.



I think not letting go of stress in the hinge area quickly enough causes trees to chair. A conventional face holds stress in the hinge for longer. I understand what you’re getting at, I think-but I don’t know really how much it effects chairing. I see very few barberchairs in mature eastern U.S hardwoods. In my opine, the gapped face is the safest one regardless of what type of wood that’s being cut, with the Humboldt following shortly behind. I don’t like the conventional face because I don’t like the added probability of the log coming back towards me as a faller. It is the one I learned as a teenager in KY, then I took S-212 and changed a lot of things with how I fall trees.

Ultimately, almost all barberchairs can be prevented by a correct sequence of cuts, regardless of undercut type. I’ll use a conventional undercut in hardwoods in the eastern part of the U.S if I’m trying to save out logs because the crowns don’t yield logs, so if the top hits first and breaks out, who cares? The part of the tree I care about hit softer and is still in one piece. Lower stump heights are a plus in some places, too. They all have their place, it’s just a matter of picking the right tool for the job. My go to face will remain the humboldt. I can do it fastest, it gives me, as the faller, the best chance of not getting smashed and I can aim better with it by messing with the snipe, the scarf and by swinging the trees a little side to side, even if none of that really matters with the wide crowns of trees in the eastern U.S.


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## TheDarkLordChinChin (May 3, 2020)

I use the humboldt a lot on softwoods from the point of view of safety, as you said, its nice not having to worry so much about the butt coming back at you.
You ever make extra deep undercuts with the humboldt? I seen videos of pro redwood fallers doing it and tried it. You can really shift the weight of the tree prior to making your backcut because it alters the point of balance. It's great for slight back leaners or trees with a lot of the branches on the low side. But dont try it on small trees where you wont have enough room for wedges and your bar in the backcut.


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## northmanlogging (May 4, 2020)

TheDarkLordChinChin said:


> You think a humboldt is better for hardwoods than a conventional? You dont think the fibers being forced to break earlier leads to more barber chairs?
> Just curious.


if done properly, the fibers will sever, rather then break, the motion changes from a bending tipping motion to falling vertically as the face closes up on a humboldt, its one way to keep fiber pull to a minimum. 

hands down Humboldt is safer, faster and arguably easier to use then conventional, it also is fairly forgiving if you don't mind an ugly stump.
You can also drop your back cut to flush, or even slightly under with a humboldt for times when machines are pushing to help hold it to the stump without risking back slip, though too much lower and the risk of chair goes up.

there is a couple of other things you can do with a humboldt that is not wise with a conventional, such as side slip (actually this is crazy dangerous but necessary at times) or sniping to get the stem to react in different ways before hitting the ground. Though a conventional face can be handy if you ever need to back slip... but just hope that is never a thing cause its a great way to get squished.


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## northmanlogging (May 4, 2020)

Barber chairs tend to happen with motion is stalled, either from not enough open face, or leaving too much hold wood, or not continuing with the cut when you should have, its that objects in motion thing, stem wants to keep going once it starts, stopping it causes something to give. if you can keep it going in a smooth motion, no worries... usually... its one of the main reasons why bore cutting or GOL is practiced, tree can't start moving until you are ready, but you better make damned sure you're ready, cause it can and will chair regardless if your face and hold wood isn't right...

That said... GOL SSD Bore cutting are not something I use often, even on chair prone stuff like alder, on a wicked hard leaner yeah, or on something with a lot of widowmakers or other hazards, it does make for a quick escape.


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## KiwiBro (May 4, 2020)

Please excuse the dumb question but how does the type of face change the hinge behaviour? Is one closing before the other?


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## northmanlogging (May 4, 2020)

KiwiBro said:


> Please excuse the dumb question but how does the type of face change the hinge behaviour? Is one closing before the other?


Conventional face, the stem tends to stay on top of the stump longer, allowing the hold wood to bend much farther. Or in the case of a shallow conventional face, it closes up and the stem tries to lift off the stump, pulling fiber or worse back slipping.

Humboldt the stem slips off the front side almost as soon as the face closes, shearing the hold wood in the process


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## catbuster (May 4, 2020)

Adding to that, a gapped face holds the front of the hinge wood in compression for a long time and when the face closes the butt kicks off the stump hard and it very quickly severs the holding wood.

A sizweel (sizwel? Sizwheel? Hopefully you know what it is, I’ve seen it spelled several ways) on a Humbolt or gapped face loads a whole bunch of wood and pulls harder than the rest of the hinge, much more than varying the amount of hinge wood side to side. I don’t use it much, and when I do it’s pretty much always on softwoods with long fibers or maybe very straight hardwoods with small crowns. It’s not something to try to swing trees far with but it can help overcome some side lean.

Open faces hold the hinge for a long time, broadly on back leaners to keep the hinge intact so the hinge won’t break, unlike with a small conventional undercut, as the tree goes vertical and then control is lost from the face closing/breaking the hinge and stuff is smushed.

So ultimately, yes, undercut construction has a lot to do with how the hinge wood behaves when falling a tree.


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## KiwiBro (May 4, 2020)

Thanks fellas. I was thinking only in terms of setting direction and not considering much else. Glad I asked and grateful for the answers.


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## madhatte (May 5, 2020)

It's also important how the stem breaks from the stump and all that. A Humboldt breaks the top last, versus a Saginaw breaking the top first. A snipe splits the difference sort of by putting a bunch of the kinetic energy out in the horizontal. As a fire/forestry guy I don't care much about saving BF but I do care about where the stem goes and how far I can be from it when it hits the ground. If my escape route is uphill you better believe I'm gonna put that stem as far downhill as possible.


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## KiwiBro (May 5, 2020)

madhatte said:


> It's also important how the stem breaks from the stump and all that. A Humboldt breaks the top last, versus a Saginaw breaking the top first. A snipe splits the difference sort of by putting a bunch of the kinetic energy out in the horizontal. As a fire/forestry guy I don't care much about saving BF but I do care about where the stem goes and how far I can be from it when it hits the ground. If my escape route is uphill you better believe I'm gonna put that stem as far downhill as possible.


Thank you. I lost a good one backwards last Summer. Tall enough to span the whole gulley. I watched as the top hit the far side and the very strong but brittle stem flexed way beyond its limits. Left stress fractures throughout when I tried to mill it. About a $3k stuff up, maybe more. :-(


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## Bwildered (May 5, 2020)

KiwiBro said:


> Please excuse the dumb question but how does the type of face change the hinge behaviour? Is one closing before the other?


I don't believe it does between the two scarf cuts being discussed, now the height of the backcut changes everything .


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## northmanlogging (May 5, 2020)

Bwildered said:


> I don't believe it does between the two scarf cuts being discussed, now the height of the backcut changes everything .


ya know, I can't tell some times if your just poking sticks at the bears, or legitimately full of ****.


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## Bwildered (May 5, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> ya know, I can't tell some times if your just poking sticks at the bears, or legitimately full of ****.


Just think about it, in the falling direction the fibres have been cut by the scarf, it is irrelevant whether the scarf is above or below the level cut, the back cut influences how the fires break, if the backcut is at the same level as the scarf level cut the fibres shear cleaner, which means they don't hang on longer, when the backcut is higher or lower than the scarf level cut , the fibres left on the stump or log tend to be longer & pull out more which means they hold for longer,


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## rwoods (May 5, 2020)

catbuster said:


> Adding to that, a gapped face holds the front of the hinge wood in compression for a long time and when the face closes the butt kicks off the stump hard and it very quickly severs the holding wood.
> ... .



I am not sure I know what you mean by a gapped face. Are you talking about a face where the upper and lower cuts don’t meet at a point but rather meet respectively at upper and lower edges of a vertical cut? I believe some refer to this cut as the original Humboldt or old growth Humboldt. Or are you talking about something different?

Ron


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## catbuster (May 5, 2020)

rwoods said:


> I am not sure I know what you mean by a gapped face. Are you talking about a face where the upper and lower cuts don’t meet at a point but rather meet respectively at upper and lower edges of a vertical cut? I believe some refer to this cut as the original Humboldt or old growth Humboldt. Or are you talking about something different?
> 
> Ron



That’s what I’m talking about. Some people call it a gapped cut to not confuse the two Humboldt cuts, seeing as what’s commonly referred to as a Humboldt undercut is technically a modified original Humboldt that achieves mostly the same purpose with less cutting.


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## rwoods (May 5, 2020)

Thanks. Ron


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## Woody912 (May 5, 2020)

Haplo said:


> would anyone put shagbark hickory near the top of their list?


purty certain Logger Wade would put it near the top of his bad list. Hackberry might hold a hinge as well as anything, had one stop at a 45 degree one time, did not put a wide enough face in it.


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## northmanlogging (May 5, 2020)

Bwildered said:


> Just think about it, in the falling direction the fibres have been cut by the scarf, it is irrelevant whether the scarf is above or below the level cut, the back cut influences how the fires break, if the backcut is at the same level as the scarf level cut the fibres shear cleaner, which means they don't hang on longer, when the backcut is higher or lower than the scarf level cut , the fibres left on the stump or log tend to be longer & pull out more which means they hold for longer,



uh... no...

hold wood, and face opening have far more to do with how much fiber bull than the back cut height.


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## northmanlogging (May 5, 2020)

Granted a flush back cut does increase your chances of no fiber pull, it still has more to do with the hold wood. 

as for low or high, both pull wood


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## woodfarmer (May 6, 2020)

I’m not seeing this gapped cut? A humboldt is an upside down open face cut, so how does a gapped cut look?


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## rwoods (May 6, 2020)

woodfarmer said:


> I’m not seeing this gapped cut? A humboldt is an upside down open face cut, so how does a gapped cut look?





Ron


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## catbuster (May 6, 2020)

As much as I dislike that man’s presentation, that’s spot on. There’s another video that’s much more recent from some younger guys up in Washington that go over all sorts of undercuts in a much more coherent fashion. I’ll see of I can find it and I’ll link it up here later, when I get back home. If I was in the woods with a saw today I’d probably just lay a couple trees out with each undercut.


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## RandyMac (May 6, 2020)




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## catbuster (May 6, 2020)

Alright, it isn’t a great tree felling tutorial as the title would have you believe, it leaves a lot out. What it is... Is a great go over for faces/undercuts, what they do and how they work.

Guys go over undercuts.


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## TheDarkLordChinChin (May 6, 2020)




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## Bwildered (May 8, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> uh... no...
> 
> hold wood, and face opening have far more to do with how much fiber bull than the back cut height.


I was referring to the two scarf techniques, with same sized face opening angle, not a open blocked scarf.


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