# rototiller.....front or rear? and other things...



## U&A

some may remember a post i did regarding the location of my new garden. well i still haven't figured that out. only have about 2-3 weeks to get it done now .

anyway, my dad used to use a rear tine tiller and loved it but it always looked like he was fighting it and he would never let me do it so i have no experience with one beside the little 2 stroke things. We will be starting with a smaller garden this year but it will keep growing for the next few years. we eventually want to be self sufficient on the veggi category for most of the year (3 people). ...back on track. you know the question...

which do you prefer, front or rear and why? ( I know, thats what she said...sorry could help it)

what brands (no wars please) do you recommend for reliability and ease of repair/maintenance?

what horsepower do you recommend for what I am trying to achieve?

Thank you much for the help and suggestion. if there is anything else you need to know about my plans to help you help me let me know.


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## Frogfarmer

Size matters. Smaller plots a front tine in the 5hp range would be my choice. Large scale I use a rear tine. My Troy Built Horse has been dead reliable for over 20yrs but they are expensive. My front tine is an old belt drive Montgomery Ward but it's heavy and works well.


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## CentaurG2

A lot will depend on the size of your garden and the composition of your soil. If you have the same stuff I do which is mostly shale and clay, you really need a good rear tine tiller. I have 2 old Troy built tillers (a 6 and 7HP) and they do a good job on tilling in an already worked over area. They will fight you breaking in new ground. I also have a little 2 stroke Mantis. It does and excellent job even breaking in new ground but it is limited by its size. Great tool if you are going to try Mel Bartholomew square foot gardening.

For breaking a large patch of new ground, you probably want to rent a big tiller or hire out someone with a compact utility tractor with a tiller. Local rental places here have big beefy Barreto 13hp hydro tillers with counter tine rotation. If you plan to use cover crops to improve your soil, your best bet is a tractor and tiller. Good luck.


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## chuckwood

Frogfarmer said:


> Size matters. Smaller plots a front tine in the 5hp range would be my choice. Large scale I use a rear tine. My Troy Built Horse has been dead reliable for over 20yrs but they are expensive. My front tine is an old belt drive Montgomery Ward but it's heavy and works well.



With my particular front tine machine, I've found I can get a bit closer to my plants because I can see just where the tines are working. With rear tines the whole assembly is hidden by shields that get in your line of sight. Years ago someone gave me a vintage Montgomery Ward rear tine tiller with an 8 hp Briggs. This machine is built like a tank and is very heavy. No comparison between it and the newer models with much thinner steel. I used it yesterday for tilling in a big dump truck load of leaf compost. It digs deep because of it's weight and is counter rotating. I have another large and heavy vintage Ariens rear tine that I use for final till, it's not counter rotating, won't dig as deep, but leaves the surface nice and smooth, ready for seeds. Recently I got one of those little Mantis tillers with one foot tilling width, nice for tilling in between closely spaced rows of leeks. Those old original Troy Bilts are very good machines, you still see lots of them around with newer engines on them, they have a high resale value. If I was looking for tillers, I'd avoid most the newer ones, they are too lightly built and tend to hop around all over the place if your soil is packed or hard. I saw a bad review on a new TroyBilt Bronco, the reviewer said the machine bucked and hopped all over the place just like a bucking bronco!


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## Marshy

Great advice, not much to add IMO. Check you local craigslist posting for Troybilt horse tillers, they can be had for 3-500 and will last a life time. Things to consider when buying one is how sharp the tines are and if it leaks any oil. Parts can be easily found as they were made for a very long time with no changes but, if you need to start replacing shafts or gears it will get expensive quickly.


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## Backyard Lumberjack

Frogfarmer said:


> Size matters. Smaller plots a front tine in the 5hp range would be my choice. Large scale I use a rear tine. My Troy Built Horse has been dead reliable for over 20yrs but they are expensive. My front tine is an old belt drive Montgomery Ward but it's heavy and works well.



my TB Horse PTO has be _dead reliable _also since new in 1983! still fires up before one full rev off the starter, then just purrs... and... I have also used a MW front end tiller... at the time it did the job ok, and got the tilling I needed to do done.

with a lot of experience in tilling, I would say this is how I see it:

for the home garden the TB Horse is a good choice. as would be any rear tined tiller. new, used or restored... but a front ender will do the job, too...

for larger gardens, and I have seen some nice ones here on the AS... near 'truck farm ops' lol...  for me, it would be a PTO tiller, 4 - 6' wide... driven by my diesel tractor. not even an issue. they can chew up stuff with some serious command authority! lol... plenty impressive vids on the utube...

given a serious home garden operation... many years of tilling in bio-degradable... pine needles, leaves, etc... and/or compost items... a rich friable soil will be achieved... in my case, most of my 'tilling' these days is done by hand with a garden fork... my soil is so friable.

for the Troy Bilt tiller owner/operator/enthusiast... there is the TB Tiller Club

[email protected]


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## U&A

thank you for the advice. I have decided to steer away from the troy built bronco ( i like the brand though) as it does look like a light weight that will dance all over the place. 


I found this one and am starting to lean towards it more. I really like that it has the weight in the front and the big tires. the brand helps a lot too and my chainsaw dealer can sell and service it witch is a plus  I found out that my out-laws (in-laws) want to go in on it 50/50 so we both can use it. they have been doing it by hand an using the little 2 stroke cultivators of years. they are ready to make it easier being they are in their mid to late 60's.

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/products/tillers/crt900/960930024/

do any of you know of or have any experience with the husky tillers like this one?


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## U&A

I did just find just one used (looks heavily used) troy built horse in my area that you guys talk about but he wants $850 for it!!


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## USMC615

TroyBuilt Horse/rear tine...brothers and I have been using our dads' 16Hp rear tine TB Horse for nearly 40 yrs...simple basic maintenance is all its ever needed. Been dead nuts reliable.


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## Brushpile

chuckwood said:


> With my particular front tine machine, I've found I can get a bit closer to my plants because I can see just where the tines are working.




Yep.


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## CentaurG2

Both of my troy bilts are from the 70’s. I paid $100 bucks for the 6hp model. Needed some welding, carb kit, new belts and a reverse disk. Smokes a bit on startup but runs and tills like a champ. I put way more hours on my snowblower than the tillers. As mentioned, once you have your soil properly conditioned, you really don’t the tiller as much. Heavy weeds and cover crops are too much for my units thus we compost everything first and feed the gardens heavily in the fall. A quick till and the gardens are ready for spring. Right now, with the exception of the asparagus patch, they are still a sea of mud.


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## chuckwood

Backyard Lumberjack said:


> given a serious home garden operation... many years of tilling in bio-degradable... pine needles, leaves, etc... and/or compost items... a rich friable soil will be achieved... in my case, most of my 'tilling' these days is done by hand with a garden fork... my soil is so friable.



This is what I'm slowly doing on my garden plot, which has been in near continuous use since 1892. For a while, soil quality became so poor that something had to be done or I'd have to work up a new plot. I'm real lucky in that not too far away is the city's leaf dump for fall leaf pickups. The dump is owned by a paving company and they compost the stuff for about 5 years or so and then sell it as mulch. It's rich and black and loaded with trace minerals. Since I'm so close by, I get a big three axle dump truck load for $225.00 delivered. I've worked a number of loads into my garden and it's worked very well, much cheaper than mushroom compost. I also get fresh dump truck loads of new leaves from the city for free, and spread leaves between rows before my plants are too big for me to drive over them with a four wheeler pulling a trailer. The fresh leaves keep the ground cool and moist. All my woodheater ashes, and several neighbors woodheater ashes also get mixed in, along with some lime, to keep things from getting too acid.


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## CentaurG2

I have always been a little leery of taking stuff for the veggie garden that I don’t really know the origin of. My town has a composting site and you can take as much as you want for free but between the town and the contractors God only knows what they mix in. Fortunately, between my own lawns and my animals, I usually have enough to keep two or three compost piles cooking at any time. Flip them over with the loader when you remember and you will have black gold filled with red wigglers in no time.


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## chuckwood

CentaurG2 said:


> I have always been a little leery of taking stuff for the veggie garden that I don’t really know the origin of. My town has a composting site and you can take as much as you want for free but between the town and the contractors God only knows what they mix in. Fortunately, between my own lawns and my animals, I usually have enough to keep two or three compost piles cooking at any time. Flip them over with the loader when you remember and you will have black gold filled with red wigglers in no time.



Well, my leaf mulch is composed entirely of the stuff that people rake or blow off their lawns and pile up next to the curb. The city goes around with machines that are basically giant vacuum cleaners and suck the piles up and blow them into the dump trucks that tow the machines. I asked the crews about this and they check out the leaf piles first to make sure there's nothing else in there besides leaves, the machine isn't designed to suck up trash, limbs, etc., and when it happens, sometimes damage can result. When they find a pile with debris in it, they pass that one on by. I just pulled a mangled garden rake out of my leaf compost, and was lucky I didn't run over it with a tractor tire. Every now and then you find some plastic or metal that doesn't belong.


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## U&A

chuckwood said:


> Well, my leaf mulch is composed entirely of the stuff that people rake or blow off their lawns and pile up next to the curb. The city goes around with machines that are basically giant vacuum cleaners and suck the piles up and blow them into the dump trucks that tow the machines. I asked the crews about this and they check out the leaf piles first to make sure there's nothing else in there besides leaves, the machine isn't designed to suck up trash, limbs, etc., and when it happens, sometimes damage can result. When they find a pile with debris in it, they pass that one on by. I just pulled a mangled garden rake out of my leaf compost, and was lucky I didn't run over it with a tractor tire. Every now and then you find some plastic or metal that doesn't belong.




try and find a horse farm and get some manure... EDIT :composted 

on a side note, dose anyone have experience with the newer husqvarna brand tillers?


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## CentaurG2

Sorry for the derail. Nope on the husqvarna tiller. If it is anything like their lawn mowers, you are pretty much getting what you pay for. If you are going to take the plunge, you might want to consider something a bit more commercial. BCS has a good rep and like the old Gravleys, you can use the tractor to power a number of different attachments. You can also try to locate an older garden tractor like a simplicity. Many of them had tiller attachments that worked very well. A hydrostat tranny is key for this type of tractor. I have seen them go for around $1k at shows in good shape. Tiller would be an additional $500 or so. A john deere 318 would be another great tractor to consider. Expensive to get into but it would forever hold its value. Lots of 318 parts on ebay as well.


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## U&A

thanks, ill look into bcs


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## Philbert

Rear tine tillers are better for heavier duty rototilling; especially for breaking up new ground, or mixing amendments in deep.

Front tine tillers let you till closer up to fences, walls, barriers, etc., since the operation is up front. This can be important in some gardens. 

You should not have to fight either one. Learn how to rock them forward and back to control the depth of till and forward motion. Some front tine tillers have a rear stabilizer bar that helps. 

I have used both, but no longer have a place to store one, so I use a small, electric one that I found at a garage sale. Works well on our small, existing garden, but I would not want to break in a new one with it. 

Philbert


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## Greenthorn

Philbert said:


> You should not have to fight either one.



Exactly right, learn how to set that depth regulator, then you work the machine, not the machine works you.


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## amberg

I think the rear tine tillers are easier to control. I could run our TB horse with 2 fingers while standing in the next row over while cultivating until it would hang one of the many baseball size rocks that we have here, and then I am chasing it down a row of snap beans about 3 days until they are ready to pick. It did work real good at laying off rows and digging potatoes with the V plow.


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## chuckwood

amberg said:


> I think the rear tine tillers are easier to control. I could run our TB horse with 2 fingers while standing in the next row over while cultivating until it would hang one of the many baseball size rocks that we have here, and then I am chasing it down a row of snap beans about 3 days until they are ready to pick. It did work real good at laying off rows and digging potatoes with the V plow.



I'm currently restoring a 50's model Simplicity walk behind tractor. Gonna hook a middle buster V plow behind it and try to use it for digging taters. I'm encouraged knowing you have already done this with a TB. The Simplicity model V has the original 5 horse Briggs on it, a big chunk of cast iron with a lot of torque.


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## diezelsmoke

Rent a rear tine to till up your area and buy a front tine for tilling it throughout the year, much easier to get around vegetation, etc. Once you have your area tilled up a front tine will be able to re-till year after year. Buy a 3-5hp front tine tiller and not the small 2 stroke.


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## U&A

diezelsmoke said:


> Rent a rear tine to till up your area and buy a front tine for tilling it throughout the year, much easier to get around vegetation, etc. Once you have your area tilled up a front tine will be able to re-till year after year. Buy a 3-5hp front tine tiller and not the small 2 stroke.


Makes sense. What brands of front tine do you recommend?


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## U&A

Do you guys pull up your sod befor had or just till it? Iv heard of both.


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## diezelsmoke

Till in your sod with the rear tine. Look around for a front tine tiller that is about 10-20 years old the new ones are ok but throwaways imo. When tilling new ground till it in checker board direction.


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## chuckwood

U&A said:


> Do you guys pull up your sod befor had or just till it? Iv heard of both.



Tilling sod is a huge chore unless you have it done with a big tiller attached to a tractor via three point hitch. It also leaves a mess of roots and grass in the dirt. In my opinion, if you are breaking new ground, it's best to hire somebody to plow it in the fall. Unless you are in a hot locale, repeated freezing and thawing will keep the exposed ridges of soil loose. Then in spring your tilling will go a *lot* easier.


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## chuckwood

diezelsmoke said:


> Till in your sod with the rear tine. Look around for a front tine tiller that is about 10-20 years old the new ones are ok but throwaways imo. When tilling new ground till it in checker board direction.



I tried it once with a rear tine monster tiller I rented. I got the job done, but decided not to do it that way again and just hire a plowman.


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## Backyard Lumberjack

if it was my 'buy decision' and if I liked husky I would get the: http://www.maxtool.com/husqvarna-17-in-205cc-counter-rotation-rear-tine-tiller-briggs-straton? rear tine tiller.

especially, if you could get some financial help with it. the rear tine will do nicer job of tilling the soil. imo, having used both. if you would like an inexpensive way to further consider the rear tine... get the gardening book by D-ick Raymond, The Joy of Gardening. he was a tiller design expert at Troy Bilt and their Gardening Director for many years. you will not need another gardening book ever, imo... I garden according to his guidelines, advice and methods. _' bullet-proof!'_

http://www.amazon.com/Garden-Ways-Gardening-****-Raymond/dp/0882663194

also, I would advise not letting anyone use the tiller who has not thoroughly read for a working knowledge the complete Owner's Manual and Operator's Guide! imo: no exceptions. it is easy to get hurt using such equipment or hurt the equipment... if the operator is not fully competent to use. in aviation we like to use the term for the pilot: current and proficient!

in reading the posts to this thread, I would say there is a lot of good advice and experience. sort it out and let us know what you get... of course, pix new tiller in action!!


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## Backyard Lumberjack

chuckwood said:


> This is what I'm slowly doing on my garden plot, which has been in near continuous use since 1892. For a while, soil quality became so poor that something had to be done or I'd have to work up a new plot. I'm real lucky in that not too far away is the city's leaf dump for fall leaf pickups. The dump is owned by a paving company and they compost the stuff for about 5 years or so and then sell it as mulch. It's rich and black and loaded with trace minerals. Since I'm so close by, I get a big three axle dump truck load for $225.00 delivered. I've worked a number of loads into my garden and it's worked very well, much cheaper than mushroom compost. I also get fresh dump truck loads of new leaves from the city for free, and spread leaves between rows before my plants are too big for me to drive over them with a four wheeler pulling a trailer. The fresh leaves keep the ground cool and moist. All my woodheater ashes, and several neighbors woodheater ashes also get mixed in, along with some lime, to keep things from getting too acid.



_>which has been in near continuous use since 1892._ 

omg!


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## Sagetown

I can get real close to my garden plants with this rear tine cultivator.
...... and it's fairly economical.


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## grizz55chev

That wouldn't work on my soil, we have a lot of clay content. Rear tine is easier on the body.


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## CentaurG2

U&A said:


> Do you guys pull up your sod befor had or just till it? Iv heard of both.


 
You can also use a poly tarp to kill the sod. A black one works best but any color will work. Mow the area as close as you can and place the tarp down where you want to create your garden. Weight the tarp down well. The flatter it sits the better the results. Let the hot sun do the rest. The longer you let the tarp sit the better but if the area is getting a lot if sun you should have a tillable area in about a month free of grass and weeds. You can also use this method to “sanitize” an area of an existing garden if you are having trouble with a lot of weed seeds. You can also use it to kill cover crops.

No till garden options do exist. I have never done one but I have given it some thought.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/no-till-farming-zmaz84zloeck.aspx


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## Greenthorn

If you can ever run across these old ARIENS RT front tine tillers, they are the cat's azz, they of course arent for busting up sod, but for a master looking garden, they work it, best of all 3 hp only about 50 lbs and the wife loves to drive it.....yehaw.


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## U&A

I really appreciate all the help and advice. I will try real hard to get one this year but im not going to get my hopes up. the father in law and I almost always have different opinions on this kind of stuff and he is slow to make decisions. If I have to I will get one myself but would love if we came to an agreement on a good one. he will most likely want to get something inexpensive a LOWS or another big box store. I WILL NOT ever do that so wee will see what happens.


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## chuckwood

Backyard Lumberjack said:


> _>which has been in near continuous use since 1892._
> 
> omg!



Throughout the years, load after load of compost and leaves have been dumped in the garden. Back when everyone was using horses for transportation, and had backyard chicken houses, natural fertilizer was easily available and everything was recycled. But there were quite a few decades when chemical fertilizers were used on my plot instead of the natural stuff, and the soil quality went downhill. It became hard, compacted, much lighter in color. And yields went down.


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## chuckwood

Greenthorn said:


> If you can ever run across these old ARIENS RT front tine tillers, they are the cat's azz, they of course arent for busting up sod, but for a master looking garden, they work it, best of all 3 hp only about 50 lbs and the wife loves to drive it.....yehaw.
> 
> View attachment 495625



I like this, with no shields in place you can see precisely where you are tilling.


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## chuckwood

CentaurG2 said:


> No till garden options do exist. I have never done one but I have given it some thought.
> 
> http://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/no-till-farming-zmaz84zloeck.aspx



One bad thing that tillers do is chop up all the earthworms. Those worms do a lot to improve soil quality.


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## CentaurG2

The little 2 stroke mantis type tillers are especially hard on earth worms as they really pulverize the soil instead of just flipping it. Black tarps can be hard on them too. Years ago we used to cover compost piles with black tarps. On a good sunny day you could really smell and feel them cooking. It works great if you want a sterile pile of rich compost, free of weed seeds but it does seem to cook out all the worms, bacteria, fungi etc. Today I keep compost uncovered and just keep flipping piles with the loader. It is red wiggler city. The chickens spend countless hours raking down the piles to find them. Makes for really great yolks.


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## Philbert

chuckwood said:


> Back when everyone was using horses for transportation, and had backyard chicken houses, natural fertilizer was easily available and everything was recycled.



We used to be able to pick up free sheep manure from the University Ag campus, which is right in town. It was pretty funny to see all these nice Volvo station wagons and Acuras loading up sheep ____ in matching Rubbermaid totes! Now, they dispose of it through a contractor, and we have to pay for it.

Philbert


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## Buckshot00

Troy Bilt front tine. Going on 3 years Cranks on first pull.


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## U&A

coo


Buckshot00 said:


> Troy Bilt front tine. Going on 3 years Cranks on first pull.


cool. have you noticed how the briggs and stratton engines get a lot of buildup on top of the pistons. I have a zero turn mower, snow blower, and engine drive welder that have B&S engines and they all seem very carbony. just noticed that my mower was pinging pretty good today when i took it out of winterizing. i think im going to try mid grad gas in it to see if it helps,

did i just de-rail my own thread, LOL

EDIT : they all still run great though


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## U&A

well, just wanted to say thanks again and tell you what the plan is for this year. the father in law and I cant come to an agreement yet and im not waiting around for him. going to rent one from a local place to get the job done and brake new ground. this fall or next spring I may just say screw it and buy one by myself. Ill keep looking for the used "horse". ill post my progress if I can. 

Thank you much.


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## chuckwood

U&A said:


> well, just wanted to say thanks again and tell you what the plan is for this year. the father in law and I cant come to an agreement yet and im not waiting around for him. going to rent one from a local place to get the job done and brake new ground. this fall or next spring I may just say screw it and buy one by myself. Ill keep looking for the used "horse". ill post my progress if I can.
> 
> Thank you much.



For breaking new ground with a tiller, it's best to use a rental anyway, that's a job that takes a tiller to its limits. You'll need something very heavy with a lot of power. My first tiller rental for new ground had a 13 horse honda on it, and it got the job done. It was more of a landscaping machine than a garden tiller. Watch your local Craigslist and something good is bound to show up eventually. If I'm not mistaken, parts are still available for those old original Troybilts, and it's easy to put new engines on them. My biggest tiller is a 60's vintage Montgomery Ward rear tine machine. If I need parts for that one (aside from engine parts), I'll have some serious difficulties. So far, it's held up very well because everything on it is very heavy duty and well made. Another good vintage brand is Ariens, they've been making tillers for a long time.


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## U&A

chuckwood said:


> For breaking new ground with a tiller, it's best to use a rental anyway, that's a job that takes a tiller to its limits. You'll need something very heavy with a lot of power. My first tiller rental for new ground had a 13 horse honda on it, and it got the job done. It was more of a landscaping machine than a garden tiller. Watch your local Craigslist and something good is bound to show up eventually. If I'm not mistaken, parts are still available for those old original Troybilts, and it's easy to put new engines on them. My biggest tiller is a 60's vintage Montgomery Ward rear tine machine. If I need parts for that one (aside from engine parts), I'll have some serious difficulties. So far, it's held up very well because everything on it is very heavy duty and well made. Another good vintage brand is Ariens, they've been making tillers for a long time.


iv seen a few of the "Ariens" tiller in my area but the look pretty small and light weight. dont look even close to the robustness of the troy built horse. not sure what to think

EDIT: they were all small front tines


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## U&A

https://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/grd/5507339244.html


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## LegDeLimber

What will really bug your Dad is when he notices that aside from a belt cover and a perhaps "beauty pan" around the weights or tires.
You can't really see much the difference between the Husqvarna tiller and the home depot one.
Take a look at the transmission/gearcase housing, er, stampings.
See that basic shape under the engine and behind the wheels?
I believe that they're all stamped out by MTD nowdays.
A bit of different handlebars or creasing in the tine covers
but I would want to look up the part numbers for the transmissions
of a couple different "brand" of them.
About 16~17 years back, When I looked at 5&6 hp units
Nearly everything went the same part numbers.
Sears was bad to spec a plastic bushing instead of bronze
and a few other cost cutting things.
(oh boy and don't get me started on some of the bastard engines that Tecumseh would build for Sears/Craftsman products)

Now this all Just this *one* grumpy old dudes opinion here:
Bottom line? IF you go with the newer built machines, I would check the parts list across a few models of similar HP and see if you're really paying for a name.

See if the bearings and gears are the same numbers.
Cheaper bearings or skipping some part could be why the name brand is more expensive than the lower priced ones.**
Just try to find the better speced version of what the factory is building.
Heavier gauge sheet metal in the stampings or something that justifies the price differential.

Edit: I left off the last half of that sentence above [ ** ]
The price difference comment might make some sense now.


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## Greenthorn

We had this Ariens Rocket tiller growing up, let me tell ya, it would chew up and spit out a troy built all day long, there are no slouches with them. Unfortunately some thieving basturd decided they liked it more than we did.....








They are also one finger tillers!


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## chuckwood

Greenthorn said:


> We had this Ariens Rocket tiller growing up, let me tell ya, it would chew up and spit out a troy built all day long, there are no slouches with them. Unfortunately some thieving basturd decided they liked it more than we did.....
> 
> View attachment 498879
> 
> 
> 
> They are also one finger tillers!



Yeah! I've got that very same exact Rocket tiller! Mine is a Rocket VII, I believe, made mine out of two old Rockets, combining the parts that were in best condition to get one good tiller. There is a heavy iron/steel weight on the front. I've lost the reverse because the original engine on it had a reverse pto shaft on the motor. There are two control handles up where the hand grips are, and two levers above the tine shield that operate the transmission controlling the tines and the wheels. The handle can be moved sideways so you don't walk over just tilled earth get footprints in the loose soil. You have two tine speed choices, and one speed choice on power to the wheels. The tranny on this thing is a seriously heavy duty unit. Power to the tranny is controlled by a lever that pushes an idler pulley on the belt that connects to the engine. Tines are not counter rotating, so you get a very smooth, flat result in the tilled earth as you go along, perfect for planting seeds on a level bed. My rocket is the one in the middle of the pics. There's an even bigger old vintage Montgomery Wards rear tine next to it, with an old 8 hp Briggs on it. Dependable motor and massive, heavy steel and big tractor tires on it as well. They don't build tillers any more like they did back in the 60's.


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