Bowline mindblock

MasterBlaster · Jul 13, 2003

Why is it so hard for groundmen to tie a bowline? I actually PAY 20 dollars to anyone who learns it, and USES it. Out of the 3 to 4 tree companys I work with, I have only had to pay up once! Thats nuts! It must be the humidity, or something. Nothing(well, allmost nothing) is more frustrating than having 2 or 3 groundmen tieing 2 or 3 different knots(differently!) every time. Its real simple-If two groundmen are applying for a job, and only one can tie a bowline, guess whos gonna get hired? One could say lack of training, but I've shown these guys over and over, and they just don"t get it! MINDBLOCK!!! I dunno, seems like an easy twenty to me...

Tom Dunlap · Jul 13, 2003

CAn I pick up that Jackson? I can tie several versions of the bowline. Do you pay twenty for each

I set the mark and groundies must know how to tie and untie a few basic knots. If groundies can learn that pay day is Friday, they can learn how to tie a few knots. Period!

Tom

Tom Dunlap · Jul 13, 2003

Don't believe for a minute that they drift into doing ground work for tree companies. I've talked with people up and down the skill and economic ladder and there are boneheads at every level. Its kind of scary to think that there might be boneheads in other life threatening crafts but there are. Maybe not as high a percentage, but they're there.

Tom

SilverBlue · Jul 13, 2003

Or how about climbers who get bored with the bowline and start using timber hitches or some goofy knot that takes three times as long to untie a lowered limb?
This new climber of mine is trying my patience!

MasterBlaster · Jul 13, 2003

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
For years I was always trying to get fellow employees to learn one or two basic knots including the bowline.

Since switching to an advanced climbing setup utilizing spliced ropes and learning to splice my own ropes, I've gone to spliced lowering lines and biners. Now I'm dealing with idiots who cannot figure out how to open a screwlock carabiner! WHY are some of the stupidest people on the face of the earth working as ground help for tree companies?

THATS what I really wanted to say, but I was holding back. I even know many climbers that can't tie that one simple knot. If ya cant's tie a bowline, than ya aint's a qualified treeman-PERIOD!!!

Joe · Jul 13, 2003

I believe it's due to a lack of mechanical experience.

A young man comes into the field for the 1st time having tied his shoes and a few granny knots. He has no experience with any other type of knot tieing. The newness of the experience
I believe is why it's tough for these guys to learn knots. Once a guy gets the hang of tieing different knots, then learning knot tieing becomes easier because the newer person has knot tieing experience.

A guy comes into the field having never touched an extension ladder, ran a chainsaw, started and fed a chipper, worked with any equipment in general.
The person has no mechanical experience. You can't blame a guy for being incompetent when he has no experience. It takes a while to bring them around. Patience with these guys could pay off if they stick around because you taught them to be the way you like them.

Joe

John Paul Sanborn · Jul 13, 2003

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
CAn I pick up that Jackson? I can tie several versions of the bowline. Do you pay twenty for each
Tom

Okay Tom, a jacked double bo'lin with a Yosemite tieoff

I use it to attache my block to retrivable lines.

Tom Dunlap · Jul 13, 2003

Okay Tom, a jacked double bo'lin with a Yosemite tieoff

That should add up to:

$20 for the basic bowline
$10 for jacking
$10 for YTO

$40 makes it about right. Come to think of it, this might be a way to classify knots.

How much is a timber hitch worth compared to a basic, $20 bowline?

Tom

MasterBlaster · Jul 14, 2003

Originally posted by Mike Maas
When a student fails, most of the time it's the teacher!

I was kinda hoping the $20 would make up for any teaching expertise I was lacking. Besides, it don't take a rocket scientist to learn how to tie a knot!

Crofter · Jul 14, 2003

Why Johnnie can't tie knots

Knot tying takes some visual memory skills that are often lacking in people with other learning difficulties. Generally tree work is heavy,sweaty stuff and if the person was doing really well in school he would likely look in another direction. Not so long ago a much higher percentage of people lived rurally where you learn to tie knots, use haywire and otherwise improvise. Last year on the job, we had an ironworker apprentice tie on a steel bracket and when his partner hoisted it up it came untied and fell back down on himself. No serious injury but they gave him 3 days off and told him to learn to tie proper knots. Now that is motivation!

Frank

treeguy347 · Jul 14, 2003

Glad to see I'm not alone!!! I told one guy who always tied this PITA knot (i think he invented it) that was near impossible to get undone, that he wasn't getting his paycheck until he could tie a bowline in front of me and swear to use it all the time. Wow does the learning curve improve. It wasn't that he was incompetent, he just didn't take the few minutes to practice it. So what do I get for tying the bowline one handed, behind my back, while at the top of a 70' pine spar?

timberwolf · Jul 14, 2003

It is part of the fire fighter training up here to tie a bowline in total darkness with heavy gloves on, I passed the test, but it took some practice. I doubt such a situation will ever come, and if it did I would be more likely to tie an eight or overhand knot.

What is the application for the bowline? If it is for rigging stuff for raising or lowering would you not just use hitches like; clove, rolling, tautline, or tarbuck hitchs (granted in their proper application with keeper knots as required)?

If it is for critical or live loads, why not tie a double figure eight, it is a stronger knot by roughly 10%, it can be untied even after extreme loading, and more over for people with visual memory dificulty it is a visualy gratifying knot. That is unlike the bowline you can tell at a glance if it is tied right.

I am sure by asking this quetion, I risk being grouped in with those

who get bored with the bowline and start using timber hitches or some goofy knot that takes three times as long to untie a lowered limb?

But it is a risk I can live with.

I won 20$ once from an ex boss when I bet my double figure eight againts his bowline, we tied a figure eight on one end of a light rope, and bowline on the other. Then attached each end to an identical locking gate and pulled on it with a fork lift until the bowline broke, it took a bit of working but the figure eight could still be untied after.

And no, he is not my ex boss, because I won the bet.

Brian

DadF · Jul 14, 2003

What can I say except I learned how to tie a bowline when I was Boy Scouts 35 years ago. Imagine what kind of groundies you might have if you could eliminate everyone but Boy Scouts! But alas I also know that there is usually a bad apple in every bunch so I'm sure that someone will shoot me down for this thought.
Timberwolf- I have also been tying the bowline with fire gloves for about 22 years now as a volunteer.

MasterBlaster · Jul 14, 2003

Timberwolf, the importance of a bowline in treework is mostly when it is configured as a slipnot, or a running bowline. I know of no other knot that could replace it when used in that application. It is the easiest knot to tie/untie after heavy loads have been placed on it. In addition, a locked-off bowline(and my friction hitch) is the ONLY knot I will trust my life with.

ramanujan · Jul 14, 2003

Or how about climbers who get bored with the bowline and start using timber hitches or some goofy knot that takes three times as long to untie a lowered limb?

amen to that! some seem to think that they're too good for a common old bowline...but the fact is it and it's variations do a superlative job where most knots fail miserably.

just the fact that a double figure eight can be untied after loading doesn't make it a good knot to work with. everytime I go to a rock climbing gym that forces me to use a double figure eight i curse the PITA knot.

just curious here as to people's bowline tying method- do most form the loop which the tail goes thru before putting the tail thru or do they form the loop with the tail?

hopefully someone knows what i mean and can explain that better than i did

dbeck · Jul 14, 2003

Why do some of you call your ground workers "groundies"? Somehow thwt seems degrading...Those workers make or break the climber and every one of us knows that. If you don't you haven't worked w/ good ground help. Givr them some respect and recognition.
Lerning and applying new knots shouldn't looked down upon. To me, that shows an aggressive learning pattern and should be praised. Just make sure they understand that every new item must be proven and 100% sure it is applicable to what you are trying to accomplish.

Tom Dunlap · Jul 15, 2003

Why is groundie degrading or disrespectful? This came up on Tr**buzz too and I didn't hear any better term for the job. If there is a different term, I'd sure like to hear. How about asking your crew how they felt about being called groundie.

To me, it's a take off on the term used for a stage hand that tours with a rock and roll band, roadie. When the term is used, you know what I mean. No disrespect.

What do you call your Veelaps? [Vertically Limited Arboricultural Person".]

Most of my groundies are climbers in training. I don't have any problem working as a groundie, in fact, most days I'd prefer to. But the reality is, my climbers in training haven't reached the point in their training to make production yet.

Is climber not a lofty enough term?

Tom

Crofter · Jul 15, 2003

There are some places where a bowline is not a good knot such as an intermittent load. It unties too easily and with three strand poly rope can come undone. I had a boat go sailing away from us on a work project and it was tied by myself with a proper bowline. With manila or multi strand braided rope it is tried and proven. There certainly are applications where other knots are better. When you see how square or granny knots can spill or fail, and if you only know a few knots, the bowline better be one of them.

Frank

John Paul Sanborn · Jul 15, 2003

A wole $hitload of half hitches will work any time

Joe · Jul 15, 2003

ground support, climbers aid...

Joe

Bowline mindblock

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