1/3 Diameter Notch Rule

[slowp]

[I===================

Where is the Pollman stump photo exhibit ?? ???? ?????[/QUOTE]


I have it located. I haven't had time to go look and take pictures yet. I saw it while I was driving by and it looked like the butt shattered--along with other stuff. I will get a picture but need Barbie to pose and give scale. I'll put her in my pack tonight.

 

[nilzlofgren]

For anyone that doesn't know, Theres a book by D Douglass Dent. Its called "Professional timber falling." Erick recommended it, its a good read on the subject.

 

[Ekka]

nilzlofgren .... :agree2:

If Erick recommended it then it must be good.

 

[HolmenTree]

I'm not trying to blow my own horn here, but referring to the information I gave in my post #259. That information came from about 4 different Arbormaster Training courses I took some years back, costing me around $3,ooo. Free to you guys. Alot of this stuff you won't find in Dents' book.

Willard

 

[smokechase II]

Arbormaster horn

"Don't forget to include the short stubby's in there somewhere, sometime."

In that famous post #259 you first referenced a brief prior post of mine.

Part of that I included in bold above.

-----------------------

Not to go into a full all out discussion again.
Everybody I know that has had to deal with a short (say 25 ft high) and larger diameter (say 4 ft to 6 ft diameter) staub is a believer in 50% faces.

Of course you probably already know my points.
That the knowledge acquired from dealing with one tree can carry over to other trees that may be only partially as 'extreme'.
That the location of the fulcrum in these short staubs is an excellant illustration of its importance.


There hasn't been a response to this question yet. Sigh.
Either in my original asking or your repeat.
So let's just drop that question.


--------------------

HolmenTree:

The one question I'd like to ask; In the four arbormaster sessions you attended, how often was fulcrum location addressed?

Thanks

 

[smokechase II]

D Doug Dent and Soren Erikkson

Dent is now teaching things like the bore cut has a lot of advantages with a somewhat strong emphasis.
He just emphasizes a wide face, in the 50 degree range, and not the open face cuts.

He sees a lot lawsuit court time and investigations.
I don't know of anyone who is brought in as an expert witness as often and his investigation experience is also of note.
This is important from the standpoint that it has forced Dent to change opinions on things like the Humboldt etc.

Dent is big on standing in a vertical posture, (with conventional faces versus other undercuts this is easier), to look up and also the faller presents a smaller target.

Dent likes the boring back cuts as they not only reduce barber chair risk, (this was in his book back in the day), but also are easier to make a precise hinge and most of all at this point in the investigation period of his life - control the moment of release usually with precision. The reason this has become important to him is what shows up in the fatality investigations.

It is a shame Dent hasn't updated his book or videos.
The book was fine for its time. Actually pretty good for then.
The videos are poor for any time. Shooting and editing wasn't as easy as now and the movies show a lot of poor cutting by Dent.

Dent seldom cuts now and really hasn't but very rarely in front of a group like one of his certification sessions for at least 20+ years.

***************

An interesting bit of trivia is the GOL preacher - Soren Erikkson (sp?) - is also a short guy like Dent. Napeleon syndrome.

Soren showed up in the Spokane area in the late 1980's with a 'boy do I have something to show you guys' attitude. He didn't go to work there for a few years and learn. Learn what works and what he could use to help. He just came in there with the right amount of arrogance to get laughed out of the area. Napeleon hurts all of us at times, short or tall. He could have made a couple of good points and done some good but he didn't have that ability.

=============

I don't know of anyone currently putting out a balanced 360 falling presentation. The folks in BC appear to be doing the best on the West Coast of N America.



It seems clear that Arbormaster has merit, but is too narrow in focus to be judged as complete.

Whatever you guys reading this think about cutting, be sure and stay open minded. If you go to one car dealership you get one line. With a touch of humor I hope you consider other than just one face dimension.

If there is anyone telling you to stick with just one cutting technique, don't buy that car.

 

[HolmenTree]

You made some good points there Smokechase and if you say that my post #259 is famous, I then take that as a compliment. I'm sure you learned something from it. Yes I agree Dent is a little outdated but he had some excellent common sense basics.
On the Arbormaster guys. They are what introduced me to climbing and I can't thank them enough for it. Arbormaster Canada[who I trained with] owned by DWayne Neustaeter,is now called Arboriculture Canada Training & Education Ltd. [www.ArborCanada.com]. He broke away from the Arbormaster theme a few years back and is now sponsered by Stihl Canada. When I took my last chainsaw course through him back in 2001, he and his business partner could barely do a good job handfiling a sawchain at the stump, but the information they gathered from around the world was amazing to say the least. DWayne and Norm always kept an open mind and never had that Soren Erickson superior attitude. They always hoped to learn something from their students as they often told us. And I guess that is how their training approach worked for me.Because I told them alot of my tried & proven ideas I felt as a student I was no less then them.We had women in one class who only used a saw only once or twice in their lives and by the end of the day they were setting up their notches and making their backcuts with plunge cuts,with a 70 cc saw. The last course I took through them was Tree Dynamics & Structural Risk Assessment in 2004[very good]. This fall I'm taking 2 of their latest courses, Hazard & Danger Tree Cutting & Falling and Arborist Technical Rigging [5 days total].

On that short stub tree [carrot I call them] you talked about Smokechase, Yes I totally agree without the trees top for leverage to get it to fall ,you can drive those wedges all day if using a shallow notch. Bring the fulcrum location back as far as you can[ if there is not too much side lean] and use the offset weight to your advantage. With its short leverage there is less danger of it breaking its hinge and falling sideways. Yes we did talk about this 50% fulcrum location in those Arbormaster courses, we were reminded of the the extra danger of a lateral root ripping out of the ground and smacking you if you didn't get out of the way when the tree started to fall.

Willard

 

[Tzed250]

Smoke, you make good points, especially the one about keeping an open mind.

I was personally trained by Soren Eriksson, and I found his methods and ideas very helpful. You saying that Dent has embraced the idea of the bored backcut shows that the American and Scandinavian felling ideologies are starting to draw together. Maybe if the folks in the PNW had overlooked what may have been a cultural conflict the sharing of ideas could have progressed at a faster rate.

 

[smokechase II]

Confrlicts

Tzed 250:

Dent isn't a public relations specialist.

Understood.

----------------

Soren has shown less ability to adapt.

List what he has changed his mind on with regard to falling technique over the years.
To my knowledge the only thing he has changed is the GOL term itself. Logging is not regarded as a game out West.

 

[HolmenTree]

Smoke, you make good points, especially the one about keeping an open mind.

I was personally trained by Soren Eriksson, and I found his methods and ideas very helpful. You saying that Dent has embraced the idea of the bored backcut shows that the American and Scandinavian felling ideologies are starting to draw together. Maybe if the folks in the PNW had overlooked what may have been a cultural conflict the sharing of ideas could have progressed at a faster rate.

I agree! I have some old Soren Eriksson training videos and must admit I still go back to them every now and then. His 6 point limbing technique is priceless.
As Smokechase just commented, " The folks in BC appear to be doing the best on the west coast of N America." Thats because BC has the highest number of Scandinavian loggers in North America. These guys would feel right at home with Soren.

Willard

 

[smokechase II]

50% Face

So "Yes we did talk about this 50% fulcrum location in those Arbormaster courses" means we can agree that a face different than 25% is not only acceptable but necessary (at times)?

I'm sorry, I missed that in your previous posts in this thread.

*****************

So just between us, no one else has to agree, the depth (not height) of the undercut should be decided on a tree by tree basis?

The 1/3rd general rule could be better stated as the 1/4 to 1/2 general rule.

 

[smokechase II]

Hazard & Danger Tree Cutting & Falling

When you take that course this fall I'd ask you to observe how often the instructors look up.
I personally think it should be done on all trees as good habits are hard to break, if you will.

Do they emphasize and require completing all cuts from one side of the tree to avoid dangers on the off-side? Hopefully the students would be required to pass a field test demonstrating this level of ambidexterity.

Do they teach that the lookout concept for falling is unacceptably dangerous as there is not adequate time for lookout recognition, communication, cutter recognition and then cutter egress? (For instance: an unobstructed object falling from 50 ft will take less than 2 seconds to hit the ground and will be going 40 mph at impact.)

Do they emphasize long bars from the safety aspects of being able to complete falling cuts without having to match, (avoiding the bad side altogether and less time in the danger zone), and being just that much further from bucks on bound logs etc.

Do they warn against boring back-cuts in rotten wood?

Do they explain that in most dead trees any perceived need for a high face is ruled out for two obvious reasons:
1) The hinge wouldn't hold anyway,
2) Any additional time at the stump, any additional focus on the cuts is a death wish eventually?

Hopefully an escape stance, high stump is located where finishing cuts can be made from the escape side and knees are slightly bent for prompt exit.

The quickest safest escapes are the ones where the tree is just tapped over with a wedge, no hard pounding - fulcrum placement, back-cut location and wedging technique come together with a little luck, saw is off and to the side and one more tap gets you the second best escape possible.

That the 45 degree escape angle is not taught as an absolute rule. Often the best escapes are to get behind an obstacle of strength and if that is at 100 degrees even take the safest spot.

Perhaps a discussion on utilizing the face to remove a defect in the tree and any effect it could have on the fall?

************

The five stages of dead and how they can affect the felling event?



Just food for thought.

 

[HolmenTree]

So "Yes we did talk about this 50% fulcrum location in those Arbormaster courses" means we can agree that a face different than 25% is not only acceptable but necessary (at times)?

I'm sorry, I missed that in your previous posts in this thread.

*****************

So just between us, no one else has to agree, the depth (not height) of the undercut should be decided on a tree by tree basis?

The 1/3rd general rule could be better stated as the 1/4 to 1/2 general rule.

No, let me clarify Arbormaster warned about the danger of the 50% fulcrum location. In my previous posts I said if it don't fall then pull it over. In my last post I just agreed with you so you would get over it. But NOW YOU WANT BLOOD. In my urban tree removal I would never use the 50%, I would go by the book and pull it over. Yes I agreed thinking I was talking to a logger with a faller mindset. Sure in the middle of the wilderness make the 50% notch on the stub, if it falls sideways who cares, only the chokerman might get upset.But you never answered my earlier question Smokechase "Were you ever a faller or any kind of logger?"

By the way shouldn't you be fighting fire in neighboring California? Even Googilet who is 63 is there running a dozer helping out .

Willard

 

[smokechase II]

50% er

"No, let me clarify Arbormaster warned about the danger of the 50% fulcrum location. In my previous posts I said if it don't fall then pull it over. In my last post I just agreed with you so you would get over it. But NOW YOU WANT BLOOD. In my urban tree removal I would never use the 50%, I would go by the book and pull it over. Yes I agreed thinking I was talking to a logger with a faller mindset. Sure in the middle of the wilderness make the 50% notch on the stub, if it falls sideways who cares, only the chokerman might get upset.But you never answered my earlier question Smokechase "Were you ever a faller or any kind of logger?"

=============

Let's talk about the dangers of pulling over a tree without an adequate initial part of the release. B-A-R-B-E-R C-H-A-I-R.

The reason for doing the 50% face is to avoid the side fall.

Step by step.
1) Straight up and down tree,
2) Very short as the top was broken off,
3) Large diameter.

Physics dictate that the force needed to drop this tree mean fulcrum location is important so that less force is needed to get it to go over. Balance because there is so much resistance here taking the fulcrum to at or near the balance point is what gets the tree over without cables or jacks.
The reason these trees fell in this manner are the very least likely to go sideways is because of the amount of initial release needed (the face) to get them to go at all. In fact, a weaker face could well have a tendency to get a sideways thing going. Certainly not the other way around.

The caveat of course at the other end of the scale, 50% face - balanced tree - regular height - smaller diameter, could well mean the tree goes over with just the face cut and B-A-R-B-E-R C-H-A-I-R potential is certainly there.

I'm curious as to why all those Scandinavian loggers in BC subscribe to this?
Could it be that it is not a genetic but a geographic thing?

*****************

Never a logger.
Never an arborist.
Just a 40 year fireline (fires in 17 states and also cutting in two more, hazard tree faller and occasional thinner in the odd winter. (We call stand spacing up to 10” dia thinning.)

 

[HolmenTree]

When you take that course this fall I'd ask you to observe how often the instructors look up.
I personally think it should be done on all trees as good habits are hard to break, if you will.

Do they warn against boring back-cuts in rotten wood?

Do they explain that in most dead trees any perceived need for a high face is ruled out for two obvious reasons:
1) The hinge wouldn't hold anyway,
2) Any additional time at the stump, any additional focus on the cuts is a death wish eventually?

Hopefully an escape stance, high stump is located
==========================================
Yes Smokechase we talked all this plus more , thats where the many of other courses on tree biology ,tree ID,tree/soil relations, tree dynamics & structural risk assessment, precision felling and aerial saw use,etc. comes in. Every tree felling situation is different as every tree is different themselves, what it all boils down to folks is commonsense its self. Like I said earlier we can write a book on notching ,but lets go back to #259, that little strap of wood holding the backcut together enabling the faller to set up all his cuts correctly and even being able to recheck every thing and not be committed to have the tree fall over until that little strap is cut when he starting for the escape route. Now this is one of the best ways to safely train a new faller. And can be used full time in urban tree removal where you have no room for mistakes.

 

[smokechase II]

I wasn't trying to draw blood

I thought the way you worded it that arbormaster acknowleged that need.

Sorry.



For those reading this little skirmish. Look at the possibilty of any one of us going elsewhere and cutting.

Time to learn, right?

Please don't assume that what you learned to be true in a classroom, then found to be true (at least for the most part), in your locale to be fact somewhere else.

Time to learn, right?

============

Readers:

For your consideration:

Avoid side falling snafu's by utilizing an adequate face. Utilizing the balance part of the complex event called falling gives you better directional control. (Within limits - don't go 1/2 face falling on heavy back leaners etc.)

 

[smokechase II]

Could you get some photos or literature

of open face cutters looking up or cutting on the off side?

I haven't been able to find any.

Thanks

Back to "Do they emphasize and require completing all cuts from one side of the tree to avoid dangers on the off-side? Hopefully the students would be required to pass a field test demonstrating this level of ambidexterity."

Have you been required to do that in any of their programs?

 

[smokechase II]

Regarding post 259

I learned a couple things from 259.

I never thought or had been trained to look for a lime green color in the sapwood. My experience is about 80% some level of dead. I'm actually happy with even droughtish timber with live fuel moistures down to 100-120%.

I had never thought of finishing a falling cut with a pole saw. That is a nice trick available to the arborist but not the faller up on a hillside.
I have used poles (cut a handy LP nearby) as lever arms in trees with extensive burn damage. Picture a tree with little holding wood left and it has burned completely through in two spots at the base. Too dangerous to even walk up to. No faller could even consider making a cut, period. Place a 40 foot lever and you're that much farther away. Both are great safety ideas.

The rest was dealt with in the legendary post 263. I'm sure you've learned from it. Look, if you don't like that arrogance go look in the mirror.

{The Northern Hemisphere SE lean thing is under further review. So far I can’t find any verification from cutters or observations here. I don’t doubt that you are correct at that location.}

 

[HolmenTree]

Smokechase you make alot of good points here ,but we are going in circles now.
We don't want to lose sight of the post #1 where the unexperienced asked about the 1/3 rule. I added something ,you added something but we don't want the unexperienced making 50% notches. People get killed everyday by falling trees and some are very experienced.

I'm suggesting to the members here who want to expand their techniques safely is spend a little money and take a hands on certified course and they will find it is the best money they will ever spend. Not just reading a book.

From your writing I kind of figured you were never a production logger , the bits and pieces seemed to come from many years of conversing with pro fallers. But I must give you credit you could of fooled me fom your stubborn gung ho attitude, you would have made a good logger.

Willard

 

[smokechase II]

Odd piece of trivia

Dead trees, especially if somewhat tall and skinny (say 100 ft dead Lodgepole), will vibrate if cut with a hungry chain or bore cut period. You can watch this from away and it is unnerving.

Oftentimes we focus on pounding wedges as the vibration that loosens a widowmaker. Think chain vibration too.

Full comp chains with high rakers are desireable and I'd suggest you look for this vibration in any dead you're dropping to see if you want to avoid all bore cuts in a particular species and/or stage of dead.

Again, don't limit yourself to one cutting technique.

Every tree and especially snag is different.