1/3 Diameter Notch Rule

[smokechase II]

I would never had made a good logger

Fell in love with jumping out of planes to get to fires. Too sweet of a deal. Plus I got paid to work in all those places. Even decent sized spruce in Alberta once upon a time.

Another good point made in the NW for the inexperienced cutters is to avoid bore cutting. Kickback is the most common form of chain saw injury and no sense putting a newbie in that world either. Particularly with all that concentration sucking their brains dry in the falling cuts.

A primary discussion topic out here is Dent on one side going we need to be doing more bore cutting, (within limits) and others like Pollman saying that he only ever had to bore a handful of trees in his big-time falling career and that the bore cut is too dangerous for most ...............

I'm certainly not afraid to ask loggers. In a way you're made to if you travel enough. You have to do this even though you may have expertise in a particular area, (hazard trees for me), over the person you are chatting with as local knowledge is so important. Just because you understand the hazards overall doesn't mean one cannot pick up a couple concepts/tricks from any cutter elsewhere.

 

[HolmenTree]

Smokechase you should go back fire fighting it sounds like you really miss it,I met a few smoke jumpers in my time ,had some interesting talks. They were trying to get down from a tree and I was trying to get up.
When I worked for Stihl in the late 80s I ran into alot of fallers from all over,a lot of PNW cutters looking for work in the interior , But what surprised me the most was lack of skill these guys [even with years of experience] had sharpening their chain. Yes the vibration factor either the chicot will kill you or the white finger will you stop you in your tracks. If you can't properly handfile don't attempt borecutting. Maybe these guys relied too much on the grinder back on the coast.

You should write a book Smokechase on timberfalling, my advice is get a good proof reader ,from your legendary post #263 I don't think I understood a thing you said ,sounded like a bunch of westcoast lingo LOL.

Willard

 

[Tzed250]

Tzed 250:

Dent isn't a public relations specialist.

Understood.

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Soren has shown less ability to adapt.

List what he has changed his mind on with regard to falling technique over the years.
To my knowledge the only thing he has changed is the GOL term itself. Logging is not regarded as a game out West.

Maybe instead of slamming the training you should take it to see if you can learn something. Or maybe you know it all.

I agree, the GOL falling techniques are biased toward smaller wood, as found in Scandinavia and the eastern US. Soon, there will be no more big trees to cut, and the small tree harvesting techniques will have more widespread appeal.

Maybe you should come cut some eastern hardwoods. Then you would find out that logging is not a game in the east either. The name "Game of Logging" comes from the training method used. CRT, competitive response training. Each class is a competition. The students are more involved with the learning when there is something on the line.

You may not only shop at one car dealership, but you think the only place to drive is the PNW.

 

[smokechase II]

Been there

Tzed250:

I have cut hardwoods in the East. Only six states worth and just on fires for short 1 - 2 week durations mostly but I do understand that while on flatter ground they generally are tougher to much tougher to fall. Leans and limbs. Complexity and tremendous variance in woods.

At this point I would never take any GOL class. Seriously! I have been shown that technique twice by two who have been through it. They were reasonable guys who didn't mandate it. That is an important concept. Our discussions were based on this cut has a lot in merit in this situation but you'd sure want to avoid it in that situation. Intellectual - seeking the truth with good friends.

It’s not just the bitterness that you guys thrive on that is a big turn off to GOL. I come from a falling world that is way more dangerous than you do. Dealing with dead trees that have been recently and perhaps still are burning is a step up from the hardwoods of the East Coast. With enjoyment of family how could I possibly use a cut that requires stump focus so badly?

I certainly would enjoy some comparison cutting utilizing the different techniques.

I have purchased and read Tim Ards e-Book. I value it for several small diameter falling techniques that are apparently not understood out here. However, overall it is a difficult sell as application to larger trees and snags is limited or not at all. Its kind of like a Michael Moore movie, it has valid points but there it lies because of "the overstatements". It is hard to get someone to pay attention when they are laughing.
My only success in showing that there is merit to some of those cuts is to show one technique in the field at a time in a good scenario for its sell. I don't associate those cuts with GOL/Open Face to avoid all that baggage. No mention of where I learned it is best.

My problem with the GOL/Open Face world is that at the instructor level there has been some sort of indoctrination mantra my way or the Hi-way thing that creates closed minds among many students. The "NOW YOU WANT BLOOD" mentality.

****************

I was in charge of two crews, 5 engine crews and some fallers on a fire near Sisters Oregon three summers ago first night. One crew was from Missouri and was a mix of FS, BLM and Fish / Feathers. They had three cutters and were Open Face types.
Snags were being dropped for a fuel break and the White Fir there are an especially bad scenario for the faller. They are much worse and denser than the dead LP I usually work in. Lots of rot throughout and plenty of chances to get hit. Typical to my experience none could cut and look up. Bent over posture, concentrating on the stump their upper backs and necks were additional target areas and I guess that had never been pointed out. {There was no problem with bore cut vibration due to the softness of what was formerly wood.}
In my 13 years as a Jumper spotter I handed out two hairline fractures and on the fireline I supervised thousands over the years, (not 2 million) with never an injury more serious than a sprained ankle.
I couldn't let that looking down ALL the time go on in a virtual dense forest of dead rotten white fir. Its not that I care about people I just wanted to keep my record almost clean. I explained the nature of danger in those dead trees and put them in a safer area. The guy who was very good with his saw I remember looking him in the eye and saying. “I don't want you to get laughed at". (There were pro cutters nearby.) He didn't react negatively. That moment of eye contact I know he realized that we were fellow Forest Service and that he wasn't in Kansas anymore. {Boy, that outta heat up that game sports fans.}
In their defense this was one of the worst places you could have put anyone, they didn't bring their own saws and were running different equipment that had just been issued and they had no experience in any setting like that.

-------------------

To anyone listening. Be ready to learn, especially when you go elsewhere.

 

[HolmenTree]

Maybe we're all learning something here but then maybe not. At this stage of my life I openily admit I'm willing and able to learn more. Sure we all have pride in our own little worlds of what we do best but we should keep open minds and see if we can learn something from the other guy. Next fall those 2 courses I'll take may not teach me alot on what I already know and do but I'll keep my mind working to maybe pickup some new usefull information and maybe even help another arborist student, because as arborists we try to treat each other like brothers, yes we're a tight knit group too just like firefighters and loggers.

My own transition from a faller, sawmilling, and then to an arborist has been very exciting for me and I'm proud that I never got stuck in a rut with only one outlook in life. Falling trees as a firefighter, logger or an arborist have their own special merits and limitations, every man must know his limitations.

 

[smokechase II]

Well said

"Falling trees as a firefighter, logger or an arborist have their own special merits and limitations, every man must know his limitations."

I don't have access to the report but Dent investigated a fireline falling fatality in either Arizona or New Mexico last year. The deceased was from the NW and he took on a tree that was turned down by a prior cutter.

A similar event on a fire I was on in 1994, it happened a week before our team got there, and that cutter who said yes went to a wheel chair. We were told no hope of use of legs and I don't know of his status now.

============

There are trees that no one can fall safely. Just because you got away with it before doesn't mean your life is worth that little.

There are also trees that I can't fall that others can.

All the Best

 

[HolmenTree]

That reminds me I gotta spend more time in the Arborist 101 forum where I belong. It was good talking to you Smokechase ,you are 1 hell of a man in your own field ,I'd like to meet you one day. I'm outta here, all the best!

Willard