1/3 Diameter Notch Rule

[smokechase II]

More

A point not to miss is that the greater the distance the wedge is from the hinge the easier it is to drive the wedge.

This does not mean that a shallower face is the answer to all problems fighting a lean.
It would most of the time be superior when fighting a strong lean where the wedging technique is capable of countering the forces above.
When dealing with a moderate off lean, where there are forces way up high that are difficult to counter, that a deeper face could be the superior technique.

 

[smokechase II]

Not complete

Needless to say; just part of the items to consider.
Treat above slides as incomplete.
Anyone is welcome to use or modify, just give the above caveat.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

That was good smoke... one thing I didn't consider with my geometry ramblings is that it's not a simple fulcrum like a see-saw where all the weight is at the other end and you're simply moving the fulcrum and changing the arm lengths between the weight and the applied wedge... the weight is on TOP of the fulcrum and you are moving the fulcrum back and forth under it. A picture's worth a thousand words.

Ian

 

[RES]

Great illustrations. I certainly appreciate all the effort you fellows are applying to this post. I now realize how little I knew about tree felling. I can now start using all those wedges I once bought.

 

[Lakeside53]

it get's worse.. even when you "know" all this stuff, it still take practise, practise and practise...even then every now and then, they still go astray...

 

[stihl 440]

trees

Perhaps the depth of the undercut should be on a tree by tree basis.

If you hear of a formula where "one size fits all" maybe your personal life experience will guide you.

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"The main purpose of the notch is not to influence the balance of the tree; it's to create the front side of the hinge with which to control the direction of the fall. There are many variations of how to make the notch depending on the type and size of the tree and the lay of the land. The idea is to control the fall through the hinge and wedges or ropes."

The above quote from this thread sounds typical of smaller tree (Scandinavian influenced) methodology. A smaller notch can work just fine when the forces aren't all that great to conquer. In fact, a shallower undercut is desirable as it provides more space to place wedges in certain diameters.

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Where this fails is in larger diameters. Same physics, just more of 'em. The face cut also should be viewed as providing the initial 'release'. It is not just there to control the size of the hinge. Using the face depth to create a hinge dimension fails to take advantage of placing the fulcrum in an optimum location to lever. This becomes clear as one moves from smaller diameter shorter trees in northern latitudes, Sweden for instance, to larger diameter taller trees in the Western US and Canada.

An instance of where this very obvious is on a 'short stubby' or 'fat staub.' Picture a balanced 30 foot tall 5+ feet in diameter staub. If one were to place a small undercut in one of these guys you would fail. Too much weight to lift and no tall tree lever to assist. Those guys need face cuts 1/2th or even deeper. Physics. Take that knowledge and vary it back to the small diameter falling and then an understanding can become available as to the need/preference to do a deeper face on a tree by tree basis.
Why, because it can make for less wedging needed.

I've cut a couple 5ft trees before (red and white oaks) and the 1/4-1/5 of the way in notch worked 100% perfectly. I've even cut a 15ft tall rotten poplar stub that was 4 1/2 feet across, and it fell fine with 1/4 of the way in notch...and it wasn't on a hill. But I sorta' understand what your getting at. If a tree is 1-2 feet in dia. and rotten as he11, then I cut 1/3 of the way in, sometimes it's a accident.....the saw was cuttin too quick....lol But I don't want to be sawin' and wasting time putting a 1/3 of the way face in a 5ft tree when, IMO 1/4-1/5 of the way works better.:greenchainsaw:

 

[drmiller100]

you guys are making this waaaaay too complicated.

look at the limits. if you make a 1 inch cut into a 2 foot diamater tree, the tree doesn't move.

if you take a 1.8 foot notch out of a 2 foot tree, the tree falls towards the notch, if it can.

KISS. the deeper the notch, the more counterballance weight, and the less weight you have to lift with the wedge.

 

[redprospector]

I get the feeling we could be reading about some of you guy's in the injury & fatality forum.

Andy

 

[sILlogger]

some notches that i use....dependent on the tree: size, species, form, condition, location topograpy, time of year..also what the tree needs to do on its way to the ground

critique and question at will

*known lean-trees lean was observable
*positive lean-tree was leaning in the desired direction

shallow face cut (36-38" poplar)-known positive lean

mid depth notch(54-58" oak)-known, semi-positive lean

fairly big notch(this tree was actually leaning fairly hard..but i had to stick the saw inside of it to bore out the heart of the tree)

and even no notch!! positive lean and lay

 

[drmiller100]

what the heck is that?????????

:jawdrop:

 

[Lakeside53]

What?

 

[2dogs]

you guys are making this waaaaay too complicated.

look at the limits. if you make a 1 inch cut into a 2 foot diamater tree, the tree doesn't move.

if you take a 1.8 foot notch out of a 2 foot tree, the tree falls towards the notch, if it can.

KISS. the deeper the notch, the more counterballance weight, and the less weight you have to lift with the wedge.

So the solution is all notch a no face cut. Brilliant! Who needs direction control!

BTW I have yet to cut a tree with a "counterbalance". What do I look for?

Oh, and do I hold the tree on the stump with my off hand when using a Miller notch?

 

[Haywire Haywood]

sILlogger. I have a question about that last one. It had a pretty good base swell. Would it have been a good candidate for trimming all the buttresses off European style like I was asking about earlier in the thread? Also, I don't see a hinge. Maybe it's covered up by all the chips.

Edit... just saw your comment... no notch no hinge. Interesting. I would have thought that would result in a bunch of fiber pull when it got close to letting go.

Ian

 

[smokechase II]

Short staubs

"I've cut a couple 5ft trees before (red and white oaks) and the 1/4-1/5 of the way in notch worked 100% perfectly."

Was in response to:
"Picture a balanced 30 foot tall 5+ feet in diameter staub. If one were to place a small undercut in one of these guys you would fail. ..............."

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How tall were your 5 foot diameter trees and how straight?

My experience has taught me that, on this extreme and somewhat unusual cutting scenario that a shallow face is simply inadequate.

Where this has its best point is that it helps one understand a sliding scale of difficulties. Then, by interpolating in-between, a cutter can see that if nothing else, he can make it easier by adjusting technique.

*************

If you are dropping taller trees with even a little lean with the lean. No sweat.
As you get closer to shorter and straighter, consider a deeper face to make it easier to wedge.

***************

I remember just ignoring some older fallers who would talk about having a 'bucket of wedges'. I thought they must be pretty sloppy going through that much plastic with their chain.

Looking at how flatter long wedges or metal ones drive so much more effectively, then how you need higher lift wedges at times etc. I have changed. I have a five gallon bucket about 2/3rds full of wedges.

You can't do this on a hillside, packing that many wedges, but they can be nice for near the road issues.

 

[belgian]

It amazes me that there's still so many opinions and controversy on techniques about how to fell a tree, in spite of the many books, video's, etc. that have been published about it. Even more if you think about the huge experience that must be around in a region like the PNW.

Every tree and surrounding is different, so there are quite some variables to take into account, but again, it is striking how many opinions we all have on this topic.

I am no logger by all means, and no way I am going to attempt to drop a tree again its natural lean for ex. if there's any risk to it. But I notice some strange techniques here proposed that do scare me equally.

What I am missing here is something like ' Will the real logger stand up and tell us how to do it....safely ?"

 

[smokechase II]

The real loggers

The real loggers were those gentlemen who used cross-cuts to fell the big trees of a hundred years ago.

Have you ever seen a photo of a small shallow face in one of the Giant Sequoias, Coast Redwoods, Doug Fir or Spruce?

It was a huge amount of work to put a face in. The flat of the undercut was made with the saw and then the top was chopped out with double-bit axes.
Then the back cut was put in with the saw and it was followed by very flat 2 foot long metal wedges.

The face was more work than the back-cut.
So why didn't they go for a face that just went in 1/5th or 1/4th and save themselves a bunch of work?

The reason is because a face is the initial part of the release, not just the determination of hinge width.
In larger timber, a deeper face can often make it easier to wedge. Simple.

If anybody ever on the planet would have understood this it was the Cross-cut loggers of the big trees.

*************************

Below is a picture of an open face notch from 1904.
Just kidding. Actually it was just the smallest face, (closest to 30% I would guess), I could find from Kinsey's historical photographs.

 

[Marc]

The real loggers were those gentlemen who used cross-cuts to fell the big trees of a hundred years ago.

Have you ever seen a photo of a small shallow face in one of the Giant Sequoias, Coast Redwoods, Doug Fir or Spruce?

It was a huge amount of work to put a face in. The flat of the undercut was made with the saw and then the top was chopped out with double-bit axes.
Then the back cut was put in with the saw and it was followed by very flat 2 foot long metal wedges.

The face was more work than the back-cut.
So why didn't they go for a face that just went in 1/5th or 1/4th and save themselves a bunch of work?

The reason is because a face is the initial part of the release, not just the determination of hinge width.
In larger timber, a deeper face can often make it easier to wedge. Simple.

If anybody ever on the planet would have understood this it was the Cross-cut loggers of the big trees.

*************************

Below is a picture of an open face notch from 1904.
Just kidding. Actually it was just the smallest face, (closest to 30% I would guess), I could find from Kinsey's historical photographs.

Good Lord. That tree would take me a month to fall with a cross cut. Or more. Doesn't even look like their saw is quite long enough...

 

[smokechase II]

Moral, morales and morels

The moral of this story is don't ever get locked into a one size (or method) fits all deal.

"It amazes me that there's still so many opinions and controversy on techniques about how to fell a tree, in spite of the many books, video's, etc. that have been published about it."

The reason there are so many ways is because there are so many places.
Just possibly, the techniques that have evolved in different settings are there for a reason.


*****************

However, one can utilize knowledge and ..........

 

[belgian]

The reason there are so many ways is because there are so many places.
Just possibly, the techniques that have evolved in different settings are there for a reason.


*****************

However, one can utilize knowledge and ..........

smoke, you seem a very knowledgeable dude.

What I meant was that, of all the places that men have cut wood, the PNW should be at least one where they know what techniques are the most appropriate for medium and big size wood. Why does there seem to be no such thing as a "PNW consensus" ?? opcorn:

 

[tatra805]

Again a great thread! when will it ever stop...

I dont have the arrogance to think i can add something, i am learning here


Now, back as a child i had the task to hold the rope and run with it once the tree came. (and keep it under tension all the time)

I was consulting with my father (who was cutting the tree, you figured) why the rope? if he was not using a face cut or something? (most trees no leaners)

He laughed and said, well son, that way i knew where you were standing and that you were going to run away from the danger zone when the tree started falling...

Took me 20 years to find out.......

But maybe as a help for the non experienced it can be an insurance having somebody pulling anyway.

It is a scary moment when you finished all your cuts as supposed and the tree just stands there, not moving, and you wonder if a little bit more will tip it to the wrong side or not.

I would say the rope can help you there from doing stupid things in your learning period.

(just make the rope long enough)