225 acre hardwood lot worth ?

[slowp]

Processors and forwarders were and I bet still are, all the rage in Wisconsin. They cut short logs there, but don't have our clever style of log trucks so their landings are huge in comparison. Gotta turn that truck around.

Two guys moved over to this side of our state from the east side, where they used a processor and forwarder. They did one flat unit, then discovered that short logs are not the best value here. They had a few yarder units to log so used the forwarder on one setting as a guyline stump. Then I think they sold their forwarder.

Those guys turned into some pretty good loggers, but the economic crash finished them and they got into different lines of work.

Don't laugh too hard when asked about how steep your ground is. Steep and how broken up the ground is governs where skid trails and haul roads will be located. Hope you get a forester to walk about with you who can explain that.

In the PNW I have heard the tale that landowners had good timber for poles but they fail to realize that part of their fence, and mailbox and beautiful landscaping would have to go in order to make the corner and get the load of poles onto the highway. Sometimes things sound good but reality sucks.

 

[northmanlogging]

speaking of poles...

There are a lot of good pole trees out here, but getting them to the highway is more trouble then its worth most of the time.

This job I'm on probably had 2 loads of just poles, but the regular trucks have trouble turning onto the paved road, imagine if they where stretched out another 20'

 

[madhatte]

Arrh, poles are often more trouble than they're worth. If the expense to get 'em out outweighs the premium, they just became sawlogs.

 

[slowp]

Yes, there's more to a timber harvest than just the falling. Time for one of my favorite pictures.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Porter is a guy what carries/drags luggage, usually at a fancy Hotel.

Skidder is a usually rubber tired articulating tractor what carries/drags logs.

Back east they are fond of forwarders, like a skidder but with bunks and a crane to load said bunks. Bitzer runs an older one.

I grew up in Maine, never even heard of a forwarder or yarder. Most loggers ran Deer 440s & 540s. Mechanical harves

12,000 bf in three loads so far, another 7k-9k bf I'm either waiting on the check or its sitting on the landing or standing on the stump,

So 19000+- bf all said and done... ish... off .5 acres, not sure what that translates into cords, roughly 11 cord to the truck load. so 55cord?

I leave cord counting to the firewood guys. Pulp isn't really a market in these parts, and firewood has been taken over by tweekers and adicts, or dudes with firewood processors. For me to cut and split 2 cord a day, I would only get about $50 after fuel etc.

Then I don't really pay stumpage either, I go percentage of the load, easier math for everyone involved, 50% is the starting point. Roughly $90 a cord depending on species.

Yeah I'm not sure on bd ft to cords. I focus on firewood.

We have a sawmill, I don't run it though. There are no "mills" here beyond small Mom & Pops and we are all "tree to final form"

Well... there was a guy that came by the shop last week needing a bar for his Hahn processor (skid steer one). He contracted out to a guy, logging & processing firewood for $100/cord.... oh, that processor.... 1/2 to 3/4 cord an hr, not counting prepping all the logs (ie.... SLOW!).
I tried to get him to come work for me. Shoot a cost of $100/cord and all I'd do is deliver?! By the time I have logs in the yard and processed, I have around $175-200 a cord invested.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Yeah I'm not sure on bd ft to cords. I focus on firewood.

I always thought a 1000 bf was 4.4 cubic metres and one cord was 2.4 cubic metres, but the conversion is region and scale specific.
According to a calculator 1000 bf is 83.3 cubic ft which suggests 1000bf is a single cord, since a cord is 80 cubic ft of solid wood.
Someone with more math skills than I will hopefully chime in.
My feeling has always been that 1000bf was closer to two cords.
Maybe it's dependant upon weather we are talking roundwood or sawn lumber.

 

[northmanlogging]

I always thought a 1000 bf was 4.4 cubic metres and one cord was 2.4 cubic metres, but the conversion is region and scale specific.
According to a calculator 1000 bf is 83.3 cubic ft which suggests 1000bf is a single cord, since a cord is 80 cubic ft of solid wood.
Someone with more math skills than I will hopefully chime in.
My feeling has always been that 1000bf was closer to two cords.
Maybe it's dependant upon weather we are talking roundwood or sawn lumber.

Its deceiving, 1000bf is about equal to a cord, but board feet is assuming everything is square and solid. Logs are scaled in the round with most scales (doyle scribner et al) only accounting for the "useable" wood roughly one third ends up as waste.

Then factor in the space between fire wood, when its all said and done its about 3 cords per 1000 bf of logs. None of this is math to relly on though.

Also bigger wood gets more bf and fire wood

 

[madhatte]

Yep, all of the above is true. I always eyeball it at about 1500 bf/cord, knowing that there's a lot of ifs left unaccounted for.

 

[Gologit]

Logs are scaled in the round with most scales (doyle scribner et al) only accounting for the "useable" wood roughly one third ends up as waste.

Or, depending on the mill, everything that doesn't scale as saw logs...and doesn't pay anything to the logger either...winds up as over-run.
Sometimes there's quite a bit over over-run.
They make some really nice lumber out of over-run.

 

[slowp]

Odd, I always figured that a perfect load of wood at the perfect weight on a regular log truck was 10 cords. Perfectly 5mbf too, if the weigh cops aren't present. Weigh stations kinda keep things light and low.

 

[bitzer]

2.2 cords per 1000 bf is the conversion standard here. Thats how guys get paid, things get scaled, etc. A typical truckload is 12 cords or 5mbf. Our trucks load themselves that's why they need to turn around. At the Logging show this year and the last show I went o was all forwarders, harvesters, and bunchers. Not a skidder on the premises. They did have chainsaws though. They don't embrace the hand cutting community that's for sure. Not a lot of hand cutters left.

 

[bitzer]

Northy that 7k for half and acre was a clearcut right? In a hardwood thinning of 225 acres a guy could be pulling 225mbf out in a typical stand and in big timber maybe double that. I'm guessing by his location the trees aren't real tall. On average a landowner will get $250+ per mbf after logging and trucking.

 

[madhatte]

They make some really nice lumber out of over-run.

Scaled vs graded is always different, more so at certain diameters. Here's a table I made awhile ago to help predict overrun. Look how the lines cross at around 40" DBH. That alone is a good argument, I think, for cutting old-growth, don't you think?

 

[slowp]

2.2 cords per 1000 bf is the conversion standard here. Thats how guys get paid, things get scaled, etc. A typical truckload is 12 cords or 5mbf. Our trucks load themselves that's why they need to turn around. At the Logging show this year and the last show I went o was all forwarders, harvesters, and bunchers. Not a skidder on the premises. They did have chainsaws though. They don't embrace the hand cutting community that's for sure. Not a lot of hand cutters left.

We have piggyback (when empty) self loading trucks. No excuse for humongus landings! Except when the helicopter gods are logging.

 

[bitzer]

We have piggyback (when empty) self loading trucks. No excuse for humongus landings! Except when the helicopter gods are logging.

I know you guys have the piggy backs. Didn't realize they were self loaders. You need long logs to keep em together though? Maybe that's it. My landings are always pretty small but I'm usually no more than a mile off the road. Right now I'm using a driveway. Truck backs in.

 

[madhatte]

Mostly there's a shovel to pick up the piggyback and load the truck. Landing only has to be long enough for the deck, and only wide enough for the deck plus the shovel.

 

[slowp]

I know you guys have the piggy backs. Didn't realize they were self loaders. You need long logs to keep em together though? Maybe that's it. My landings are always pretty small but I'm usually no more than a mile off the road. Right now I'm using a driveway. Truck backs in.

A few are self loaders. Most are not.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Self loading trucks here. Granted there's only 6 trucks in the area that are road legal and we have 2 of those. Timber is not much of a economy here.
Been a few people that pissed off a logger enough that phone calls were made and they quickly became SOL for getting logs or having logs hauled. It's a small community!

 

[northmanlogging]

Northy that 7k for half and acre was a clearcut right? In a hardwood thinning of 225 acres a guy could be pulling 225mbf out in a typical stand and in big timber maybe double that. I'm guessing by his location the trees aren't real tall. On average a landowner will get $250+ per mbf after logging and trucking.

yup scalped it down to nuthin, its really about 3/8s of an acre, the county hosed me on 2-3 loads on the other end... Normally the LO would have gotten 50% or so, so like 3500, but I'm stumpin this patch and hauling the brush... so we shall see where its at, at the end.

I know you guys have the piggy backs. Didn't realize they were self loaders. You need long logs to keep em together though? Maybe that's it. My landings are always pretty small but I'm usually no more than a mile off the road. Right now I'm using a driveway. Truck backs in.

All I use are self loaders, If a full size dump truck can get turned around somewhere and back in the self loaders can figure it out... I've heard stories of one of the old retired guys, reversing all the way up a mountain, his trailer was down, he's the one legged one, yacking on the radio and jamming gears on a 5-4, with the guys going forward having trouble keeping up...

That aside, most of the self loaders can bunk at 20' minimum, but they prefer to be stretched out, the way the piggy back trailers work is that they counter steer, so when you shorten them up too far, it gets kind of weird.

For now at least I don't think that using my little 120 to load logs would be wise, It could probably do it, but it wouldn't be pretty, at least not on a full sized truck, folks tell me I won't be able to unload the trailer either, though I wonder about that...

Besides the outfits with dedicated loaders here have trouble finding trucks as it is, so me and my 1-2 loads a week isn't going to have the pull to convince some joker to swing by and burn an hour while I **** about and try not to tear his bunks off.

 

[northmanlogging]

Dis here's an older vid, fun job too, made some good friends on that one...