404 verses 3/8

[aggiewoodbutchr]

Pretty comprehensive list there... only thing I would maybe add would be temperature. I remember when I was logging for a paper company that in winter when the pine trees were frozen hard as a rock we used to say the saws seemed to cut through them cleaner, easier than in the heat of summer. That may have been only in our heads though. Maybe had to do with how the sap was running (or not) that time of year? Your point is well taken though, there are LOTS of variables cutting wood with a chainsaw. 404 pitch chain being only one of many that effect the big picture.

I just bought 2 more milling chains, 3/8 .063 119 links for my 36 inch GB csm, $24 each from Baileys. The same chain, but .404 .063 would be only $2 more each. Not a big difference. Aggie is running a 72 inch bar though... so double that, and it does start to add up. Thats not premium GB milling chain though, just the basic stuff Baileys sells ground to 10 degrees, but it works for me.

I ordered some chains myself yesterday for the 72"er from Bailey's.
1 loop of .404 ripping chain - 190 links at $0.22 = $41.80
1 loop of .375 ripping chain - 220 links at $0.20 = $44.00

Great thing about this GB bar is it's a roller nose (NOT hard nose or sprocket). I can run any pitch chain by simply swapping the drive sprocket as long as its .063 gauge.

 

[aggiewoodbutchr]

Wouldn't a 404 be stronger than a 3/8? And, with a 41" bar on a big saw, the chain forces must be large? So, wouldn't a 3/8 wear faster and be more at risk for breakage?

I would tend to agree in theory. If you look at the chains in the picture you can see the .404 tie strap is taller. However, I usually wear the teeth of a chain out from sharpening long before the links show excessive wear on either pitch.

 

[aggiewoodbutchr]

I found a .058 chain to compaire the .063 to. Here are pictures of the drive link thicknesses...

 

[aggiewoodbutchr]

and here are pictures of the theoretical kerf they make. The actual kerf will be larger due to vibration, etc. Maybe I'll have time to make some cuts and measure 'em.

I included both .375-.063 and .404-.063 to show how little difference there is between the two.

 

[Adkpk]

Aggie that is great stuff, thanks. I was reading an old post http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=4932&highlight=rakers.
If you havn't read this give yourself a day and read it.(it's like 30 pages) I did a search for rakers and couldn't get out of this thread for nothing. Somewhere in the middle Art Martin answered my question to the tee. Mind you the thread is of many other things, nothing to do with milling, non-the-less if you like chainsaws and chainsawing this thread will suck you in. Any he explains something about the angle of the raker pulling the tooth up in order to take the chip out of the wood.
I think this has more to do with the pull of the chain on the saw. Let me get out of this by saying, if you want to expand your scienctific quest, that guy gets about as scientific about chain than anybody I have ever heard. He's talking race chain just so you don't waste your time if there is NO relation to milling chain. But I feel I am better chain sharpener for it.

 

[aggiewoodbutchr]

Aggie that is great stuff, thanks. I was reading an old post http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=4932&highlight=rakers.
If you havn't read this give yourself a day and read it.(it's like 30 pages) I did a search for rakers and couldn't get out of this thread for nothing. Somewhere in the middle Art Martin answered my question to the tee. Mind you the thread is of many other things, nothing to do with milling, non-the-less if you like chainsaws and chainsawing this thread will suck you in. Any he explains something about the angle of the raker pulling the tooth up in order to take the chip out of the wood.
I think this has more to do with the pull of the chain on the saw. Let me get out of this by saying, if you want to expand your scienctific quest, that guy gets about as scientific about chain than anybody I have ever heard. He's talking race chain just so you don't waste your time if there is NO relation to milling chain. But I feel I am better chain sharpener for it.

Thanks. It may be a long night.opcorn:

 

[oldsaw]

This is true, but the context is misplaced. The difference between .404 and .375 chain is the average distance between rivets on the drive links (.029" per link). From what I've learned, you are supposed to measure across 4 rivets and divide by three. I set the callipers to match the theoretical measurement of each pitch and compaired them against the chains. (see pics)

.404 x 3 = 1.212"

.375 x 3 = 1.125"

I have the same problem with availability. I wish I knew what I know now before I invested so much money in bars and chains.

I post the most retarded things at night...brain shutdown. I wanted width. Too tired tonight to look it up. Someone can go to the Oregon website.

Mark

 

[upandcommer]

I have now milled with .325 .375 and .404 the .325 is far too weak to make cutting long boards in hard wood worth a damn the .375 is OK but .404 is where i place my hat the .375 is .50 guage and the other two are .63 guage the .375 does make a narrower curf but other than that the only difference I have noticed is time in the cut. It seems to me that the larger the teeth the more of a bite said teeth take of wood on a single pass i.e. more torque required to pull said teeth to make the curly q's we all love. SO my suggestion is if you own a torque saw and don't feel like working all day on a single pass upgrade to .404. If however you are trying to mill with a 60 cc saw then stick with .375 I myself have an OLD mac 80cc that is not much for hp but has torque from the word go so the .404 is no problem for it in anything I have ever asked it to do.

 

[rmihalek]

Gearing

The other difference between the .375 and the .404 is the effect that the pitch has on gearing. An 8 tooth sprocket pulling a .375 pitch chain will pull (8x.375=) 3 inches of chain per revolution whereas an 8 tooth sprocket pulling .404 will give 3.2 inches per revolution. If you're milling at 8,000 rpm, the difference is then 24,000 feet per minute of chain versus 25,600 fpm.

So, at the same engine speed you're pulling an extra 1,600 feet of chain through the wood every minute: that takes more power.

 

[woodshop]

It seems to me that the larger the teeth the more of a bite said teeth take of wood on a single pass i.e. more torque required to pull said teeth to make the curly q's we all love. QUOTE]
...curious what you mean when you say "curly q"...are you talking about what the wood chips look like coming from your saw? I usually only get fine sawdust when milling, much finer than when regular crosscutting which is what the chain was designed to do. What kind of chain are you using to mill with?

 

[carvinmark]

It seems to me that the larger the teeth the more of a bite said teeth take of wood on a single pass i.e. more torque required to pull said teeth to make the curly q's we all love. QUOTE]
...curious what you mean when you say "curly q"...are you talking about what the wood chips look like coming from your saw? I usually only get fine sawdust when milling, much finer than when regular crosscutting which is what the chain was designed to do. What kind of chain are you using to mill with?

I usually get saw dust when I mill too.Maby a little coarser than dust,but certainly not shavings.

 

[woodshop]

I seem to remember reading on a thread somewhere in this forum about this. Since the chain is not crosscutting the fibers as it is when cutting normally, you won't get chips, or curly q's, you get lots of fine bits of wood, sawdust. I havn't had time yet to read through that chain info thread mentioned a few posts ago, but maybe he addresses this in there?

 

[upandcommer]

I use standard .404 x.63 from bailey's i reground it to 15 degree angles has worked like a charm for me since i first through it on the saw minus the too short problem i have an old mac 1-43 circa 1963 80cc manual oiler 80cc 20 pound torque monster i have bought but not used a 3/8ths sprocket for the said saw since I was given a hard nosed bar with it as long as my sprocket and chain match the guage I am golden. I have yet to experiment with 3/8ths though. If it isn't broken don't fix it.

 

[carvinmark]

I use standard .404 x.63 from bailey's i reground it to 15 degree angles has worked like a charm for me since i first through it on the saw minus the too short problem i have an old mac 1-43 circa 1963 80cc manual oiler 80cc 20 pound torque monster i have bought but not used a 3/8ths sprocket for the said saw since I was given a hard nosed bar with it as long as my sprocket and chain match the guage I am golden. I have yet to experiment with 3/8ths though. If it isn't broken don't fix it.

My experience with more than 10 degrees is a rougher finish on my lumber.Lately I have been going with 5 degrees. How is the finish on your cuts?

 

[Adkpk]

I grind at 5 degrees also. And ya, the curly Q's, I've seen um. The first time I use my saw and mill. It was on a hugh maple. I was really excited. But that was it. Even after using new chain. That is one reason I went looking for the raker info. Dave there is no mention of anything about milling in that thread, nor curly Q's. This guy Art Martin goes on and on about grinding chain like it would set him free from hell if he got it right. He's like Divinci on saw chain. And you being the master at jigs, this would be interesting to you. You can learn stuff but it's not about milling. we need the Art Martin of ripping chain. I tried grinding down the rakers, that wasn't it. It was something that's for sure but no curly Q's. Lets hear about how you guys grind your rakers. My chains cut pretty good after I sharpen them but I will always be able to get it better.

 

[upandcommer]

Well the first thing I do not do that most do is hand file. I can't do it and I reserve myself to this basic fact of human nature. I only use my bench mounted chain sharpener for all my sharpening needs. This may be why my chain pull curlies and yours doesn't minor imperfections in the angles of the leading edges would cause slight variations in the depth of each cutter. However it might be that I am doing something entirely wrong why my saw pulls curlies and yours throws dust. I have only milled say 5000 bf so far so I am a newbie by most of your standards. It very well could be the kinds of wood I mill too I have milled nothing but walnut and white and red oaks all very hard woods all under 23" across. I am just trying to think of reasons why my milling setup is different. I have reground the chain I would say 5-10 times so I know it is not the grinding that is doing it. I try to almost shine the links as opposed to cut them off with the grinding wheel I go super slow and try to almost use the course wheel as a buffer by the time my last pass is done on each cutter. And to answer your question my boards are fine as long as I go 15 degrees or lower any higher and I start to get chain chatter I call it.

 

[Grande Dog]

There are a few things that are the major contributors to kerf for any chain onto itself. The newer a chain is the wider the kerf because the tooth gets narrower towards the tail. The greater the grind angle is more the chain will pull from center. The looser the bar grove is the more the chain is allowed to deflect off center. To get the narrowest kerf on any given chain, the tooth needs to be at the end of its life, the chain is ground at 0, and the bar groove is tight. The following measurements are from our ripping chain that is manufactured by Carlton. From the center of the drive link to the outside edge of the cutter on .404 is .160" making the minimum possible kerf .320". The .375 is .135" making its smallest possible kerf .270". That makes a minimum of 16% more kerf for the .404. There might be some curves here but, I would say it takes that much more power for the same cut. As far as chain speed goes this is the math I came up with. Using an earlier post example, if you have an 8 tooth rim turning 8000 rpm's there will be 64000 drive links per minute whether it's .375 or .404. The .375 has 16.4 drive links per foot which comes out to 3900 feet per minute. The .404 has 14.8 drive links per foot which comes out to 4300 feet per minute.

 

[woodshop]

THANKS Grande Dog for helping to clear some of this up. I never thought of the tooth taking less of a kerf as you sharpen it, but it makes sense now that you say that. So from what you have just said, when that Stihl dealer told me .404 takes a bit more power to pull through wood, he was correct. 16 or so percent isn't a lot, but when you're milling wide stuff, you need all the power you can get, and waste as little as you can. Nothing wrong with using .404 for those that do, but I'll stick with 3/8 .063. on my 36" GB. I just can't see any good reason to move to .404 for what I do and how I mill.