A confession

[Humptulips]

Might as well do a bunch. The one they seem to be in the process of doing the most is the flat one for the skyline?

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by that.
Eye splice is pretty self explanatory, Long splice is to splice two pieces of line together, short splice usually not used on bigger lines.
I imagine you're talking about a tucked long splice but not sure. Not very common to put in a rolled in long splice. I doubt I could explain it well without photos. Even then you really need to take the spike in your hand and do a couple to fully understand. It's really simple in principle but there is a certain feel to driving the spike and pulling in the tucks.

 

[slowp]

Does this explain? A splice to hold the skyline together and it has to be a nice one so the carriage will go over it smoothly. I'm not at all up on splicing. And I seem to be retarde oops I mean mentally challenged when it comes to remembering how to tie knots. I have to practice practice practice.
I did learn to do a speedy kind of knot at of all places, Humptulips, WA. There was a run away slash burn so I got dispatched to work on it as a supply drone. We had a huge amount of cord so we had knot tying contest. But no splicing.

 

[tramp bushler]

Cuttin vs, the riggin

. . Ya some guys just prefer the riggin .. The biggest thing I hate about the riggin is riggin men ...

.,., Most ignorant bunch of low lifes I have ever been around , fully as bad as attorneys and bankers , but with less money ... Long shore men and seiners . are close ...

.,.,Up here cutting is different , tho the powers that be want to take the profit out of it if possible ....Cutting old growth is more a mind over matter job ...

Single jackin , the way we do the faller is the only guy who actually makes something , every one else just moves it and argues over it ......Besides I prefer being in the timber instead of out in a clearcut ... But makin clear cuts is fun ...This job I,ve been doing has had some selective cutting and that adds to the problems to figure out .... Really reduces the amount of wood volume on the ground , but all the non timber beasts think no one has been there , what a bunch of retards ...

 

[slowp]

... Really reduces the amount of wood volume on the ground , but all the non timber beasts think no one has been there , what a bunch of retards ...

You mean the mentally challenged, of course. Thinnings seem to be the only thing we can do here. Anything else will end up in court. The cutters here say they like it. Takes more thinking and in the summer, there is shade.
Rigging guys like it because the trees will stop bad things, like whipping lines.
But there is the hazard of pulling or knocking over trees, and they have to work the turns in to keep from scarring up the standing trees. And the tourists have no idea an area has been logged afterwards. That's what we have to do here to keep going.

 

[Humptulips]

. . Ya some guys just prefer the riggin .. The biggest thing I hate about the riggin is riggin men ...

.,., Most ignorant bunch of low lifes I have ever been around ...

I guess I could say the same about the cutting crew. Sometimes it seems like they go out of their way to screw you over. I've been left uncountable "danger trees" to cut, to dangerous for the cutting crew but not for me apparently.
I think the main problem with logging and riggin men in particular in the last 15 years has to do with the pay scale and down time. It's just turned into a lousy job compensation wise. The good intelligent hard working men soon realise there are better ways to make a living and move on. You end up with a bunch of drunks, meth heads and losers. You can't can em all or you got nobody left. Bring the wages up so you could retain the good men and you might feel differently about riggin men.

 

[Humptulips]

You mean the mentally challenged, of course. Thinnings seem to be the only thing we can do here. Anything else will end up in court. The cutters here say they like it. Takes more thinking and in the summer, there is shade.
Rigging guys like it because the trees will stop bad things, like whipping lines.
But there is the hazard of pulling or knocking over trees, and they have to work the turns in to keep from scarring up the standing trees. And the tourists have no idea an area has been logged afterwards. That's what we have to do here to keep going.

Thinning is an easy job for the slinger and chokerman. It sucks to tend hook on. Big layouts every road and lots of trees to rig. I know I did it for the better part of 5 years. Most every road you have to rig a tail tree and the support trees are pretty common depending on the machine. I had one road once with three support trees and a tail tree.
The worst IMHO is the economics of it. You really can't expect more then 4 loads a day and that's with a crew of 5 or 6. That just doesn't pencil out too well
What does it look like where you thinned after a couple years? I know every unit we thinned was clearcut within three years because of blowdown. We were probably too close to the coast but I can tell you one thing. Thinning hemlock stands doesn't work. Guarenteed blowdown.

 

[slowp]

Well, since thinning is the only thing allowed here, except for the occasional "gap", that's what we have to do. One unit had about 100mbf go down in the 06 storm. But the unlogged area blew down too. There's a lot of root rot there and rocky soils. We were NOT allowed to salvage log it even though the landings, corridors etc. were already in. I sulked for quite a while and have to look the other way when driving by it.

The other units are holding up. They are a Doug, Hemlock mix. In fact, either the logger or a contractor is required to go back in and drop trees to leave on the ground for "woody debris". The things we have to do to do any logging are mind boggling.

We also do more downhill skyline thinning here than most places. That is really slow although a crew that was made up of all hooktenders last fall, went pretty fast. The company had laid off the regular crew and was trying to hold on to their hooktenders. They hardly scarred any trees. The hooktenders all seem to be harried, it does take a lot of work and they often have to rig up intermediate supports. Road building is considered bad also.

I usually let them cut the tail tree too derig, and leave it for the woody debris.
That speeds things up a little. I know I feel like I'm pushed a lot of times. I have to paint the corridor trees ahead of the cutters and sometimes they are right on my heels. I'll have to start cruising the corridor trees on this year's sales as they were sold "tree measurement". The billing is based on the cruise, not the scale volume so the trees all have to be paid for before cutting. I won't bore you with the details.

 

[Bushler]

I like cutting because I can work alone. Whatever gets done, gets done because of me, and I'm proud of my strip. I buck accurate lengths, limb enough to get the tape to lay flat, and always try to keep in mind the rigging crew/shovel/cat/skidder(whatever) has to be able to get the logs out.

Having worked on high lead, cats, skidders and shovels I know how to yard timber, and cut the trees accordingly. Keeping the fell and buck in lead, etc.

 

[Bushler]

Slowp, why is thinning the only thing allowed? Are you on private land?

 

[slowp]

Slowp, why is thinning the only thing allowed? Are you on private land?

First the disclaimer. The following is MY own thoughts and opinion.

I work on National Forest--Federal land. Timber sales are planned by lawsuits and environmental groups. Clearcutting would be an instant appeal and lawsuit. But we do need to do that to make huckleberry habitat but won't.
The closest thing we come to a clearcut is called a gap. A gap is not to be confused with a skip. A skip is a little area of NO cutting or often even yarding through. A gap is a very little area where conifers are cut to make an opening. Skips are ALWAYS more plentiful than gaps. The rest of the area is thinned to speed up the stand's growth so it will become desired old growth. So, anybody logging it is basically logging to make the trees get bigger so they can't be logged again. People used to say that logging was subsidized by the govt. Here it actually made money for the treasury. Now we are subsidizing groups and lawyers. Unless politics and the people who know how to get the attention of the politicians (not necessarily the majority of the populace) change, there'll be no change. We grow trees quickly here although not a quick as the coast. I find myself unable to think too much about this or care because I'll go crazy. It is like this--:bang:

I really like my job when I'm out in the woods, so I try to stay there and do productive work when no logging is going. That should start next month after the owl restrictions are over and the snow is melted more. It is a crazy world otherwise.

 

[Bushler]

Managment by litigation is the curse of the industry, for sure.

I don't think there's much if any logging on Fed. land around here. I've been out of the loop for a couple years, concentrating on private property, (my own).

Thinning needs to be done progressively. If not done properly and at the right ages it's detrimental to the stand. I bet you know that. Probably irritates you to have to put aside your knowlege to placate the agenda driven.

I wonder how much timber we could produce on our Federal land if managment was left to the qualified foresters?

Say for instance, if we cruised and indexed all the National Forest timber, and then set up a rotational harvest/plan schedule for all 1-3 site index on a sustainable yield?

 

[Humptulips]

Slowp,
All of my thinning was done on private ground. The way it was done is you were given a tree count for the unit. It varied in different units. Usually ran about 120/acre to 140/acre. It was then up to the loggers to decide which trees to cut. Either I or the owner would run the corridors and the cutters would pick the trees to be cut as they worked. Usually they would leave it a bit thick so we could skin up a few and still have the right tree count. After we were done a guy would come into check on us. He would take plots and take an average of the number of trees left. He also would check for damage. We were not allowed to have any damage larger then a quarter above chest height and nothing larger then the palm of your hand below that. Part of the companies pay was dependent on a good report from the plotter. We could have three damages per acre but none above chest height or the company lost their incentive pay. Not sure what that amounted to but the owner seemed pretty concerned about it. After the crew logged out the road I would have to fall all the damaged trees and sometimes a few to get the count right as we picked up the road. We never left any tail trees or support trees. Had to figure a way to get them out. It looked nice when we were done but the wind always made a mess before long. Hemlock just will not stand being opened up.
I live in the Olmpic National Forest so I see the result of the thinning around here, almost all hemlock. Sooner or later it blows down. A stupid waste IMO. FS never cleans up blowdown so usually more goes to waste then harvested. As far as growing into old growth. Never happen here. Pretty hard when they are uprooted but it does make a hole for more blowdown outside the unit. IMHO USFS does the worst land management of any agency. If they would only listen to the people on the ground but that's not likely to happen.

 

[slowp]

Right now "stewardship" sales are the fad. I use the term fad for things because I've worked for the FS for 30 years and have seen other fads make brief appearances. If we put up a regular timber sale, a lot of the work that the non-timber factions want can't get put on the purchaser to do. So, a new thing is to put out a contract that trades timber value for other work, like precommercial thinning, making snags, dropping trees to leave, etc.

We don't have a timber marking crew anymore. Regular sales and stewardship sales are now marked by the logger. Designation by description or Designation By Prescription. The latter can get so complex that I have to read it several times before understanding it. The leave tree is usually picked by considering only the diameter at stump height. Doesn't matter if it has a deformed top, conks, root rot--only diameter matters. That way a "diversity" is assured. As you can see, this area no longer manages for timber growth and value.

I've taken the local group out to see on the ground stuff, but can't get them off the road and down into the unit. One saw a landing that had several settings logged to and cried because it was devastation and looked like we were heading back to the clearcutting days. The landing was maybe a quarter of an acre. The forest is being run by this mentality. I hope to retire in 2.5 years but may have to work another year to pay for a house. It drives me crazy if I think about it and it is morning and I don't want to start out the day cranky so no more on this.

 

[Bushler]

Don't give up the good fight. I race motorcycles and continually meet people from all over the world, making friends and building trust. Its satisfying when I'm able to point out the selfishness of the GreenPeople and their obstructionist agendas.

I hope to see a lessening in the polarization between rational people regarding renewable resources. As a nation we can't ignore the economic waste that is currently taking place on our Federal land.

Every year I have small groups of friends come visit me. I like to take them into the mountains on dual sport bikes and show them units I helped log in the '60's. Clear cuts, that are now reforested with nice timber.

Clearcutting is the best method for doug fir. With hand planting following the harvest. Then precommercial, and a commercial thin, always keeping the proper spacing between trees to maximize growth.

I've tried partial cuts, multi species stands, etc. and it doesn't seem to work very good if the trees are 40 years old at the first thining. The remaining timber doesn't seem to respond well at all. And like Hump mentioned, blowdown is rampant.

 

[tramp bushler]

I agree

I guess I could say the same about the cutting crew. Sometimes it seems like they go out of their way to screw you over. I've been left uncountable "danger trees" to cut, to dangerous for the cutting crew but not for me apparently.
I think the main problem with logging and riggin men in particular in the last 15 years has to do with the pay scale and down time. It's just turned into a lousy job compensation wise. The good intelligent hard working men soon realise there are better ways to make a living and move on. You end up with a bunch of drunks, meth heads and losers. You can't can em all or you got nobody left. Bring the wages up so you could retain the good men and you might feel differently about riggin men.

....

... I agree the low pay is what is killing the industry for the workin man ...And the lack of work !! Back when we had it better cost of living wise they still were pretty hard to deal with tho, ...And definitely , not all cutters are the cream of the crop . ...

I totally prefer working alone and always have so the riggin isn,t a good place for me ... Chaseing was my favorite job , as long as the shovel operator kept the limbin and buckin decks away from the chute ,. ...And the hooker didn,t want 5 coils when he blew for chockers after a road change ... There not being enough hay wire to have any coils made up ahead of time ......Thats the kind of ignorant BS they are prone to ... Things like falling lift trees because they are too lazy ,or scared to climb and too proud to let a dog rig the trees ....ect,ect,ect,ect ... and then haveing to listen to them yap all day ... Landing is a good place , too loud and busy for senseless jabberin ..

 

[Gologit]

Right now "stewardship" sales are the fad. I use the term fad for things because I've worked for the FS for 30 years and have seen other fads make brief appearances. If we put up a regular timber sale, a lot of the work that the non-timber factions want can't get put on the purchaser to do. So, a new thing is to put out a contract that trades timber value for other work, like precommercial thinning, making snags, dropping trees to leave, etc.

We don't have a timber marking crew anymore. Regular sales and stewardship sales are now marked by the logger. Designation by description or Designation By Prescription. The latter can get so complex that I have to read it several times before understanding it. The leave tree is usually picked by considering only the diameter at stump height. Doesn't matter if it has a deformed top, conks, root rot--only diameter matters. That way a "diversity" is assured. As you can see, this area no longer manages for timber growth and value.

I've taken the local group out to see on the ground stuff, but can't get them off the road and down into the unit. One saw a landing that had several settings logged to and cried because it was devastation and looked like we were heading back to the clearcutting days. The landing was maybe a quarter of an acre. The forest is being run by this mentality. I hope to retire in 2.5 years but may have to work another year to pay for a house. It drives me crazy if I think about it and it is morning and I don't want to start out the day cranky so no more on this.

Good post.

 

[Humptulips]

....

... I agree the low pay is what is killing the industry for the workin man ...And the lack of work !! Back when we had it better cost of living wise they still were pretty hard to deal with tho, ...And definitely , not all cutters are the cream of the crop . ...

I totally prefer working alone and always have so the riggin isn,t a good place for me ... Chaseing was my favorite job , as long as the shovel operator kept the limbin and buckin decks away from the chute ,. ...And the hooker didn,t want 5 coils when he blew for chockers after a road change ... There not being enough hay wire to have any coils made up ahead of time ......Thats the kind of ignorant BS they are prone to ... Things like falling lift trees because they are too lazy ,or scared to climb and too proud to let a dog rig the trees ....ect,ect,ect,ect ... and then haveing to listen to them yap all day ... Landing is a good place , too loud and busy for senseless jabberin ..

I guess that's why I always liked hooking. I would get plenty of alone time. Never was much for having a pimp. Prefered to do it all myself. I don't think much of hookers that yell a lot either. It's my experience that it's usually a way of covering up for not knowing what they're doing.
I found that if you get a good crew best to not second guess them. Get them some lift, be there if they need help and lead by example. If you work hard they will too. If not they're not good men.

 

[ClimbinArbor]

IMHO USFS does the worst land management of any agency. If they would only listen to the people on the ground but that's not likely to happen.

this is the same in alot of industries. the desk jockeys draw it up and everyone thinks it looks good. then the prints or orders come down the chain. then BAM someone says WTF!

the people causing this problem are the desk jockeys that haven never had to actually do the work.

 

[windthrown]

Well I think I'm going to have to finally admit that I'm through logging. Been kind of fooling myself for a while now. I kind of hate to admit it.
I've got this problem with my foot. Doctor calls it Mortons Neuroma. I think they can fix it but by the time it's better the way the logging is going there isn't going to be much for me anyway.

I had a neuroma in my foot when I was 30 and I know what you are going through. I could not walk most days. I had surgery to have it removed, and a few toes are numb now on that foot. But I can walk and it does not bother me any more. Doctors said it was the largest neuroma they had seen when they yanked it out of my foot. Local anesthesia was all that was needed.

As for PNW logging, yah, its bad to worse now. Not much being logged around these parts now. Can't fix that.

 

[ClimbinArbor]

aside from burning down new hauses as soon as they are framed?