A science-based tree fertilization question

[PinnaclePete]

Photosynthate is diverted from defense(production of allelochemicals) to increased growth of succulent tissues. Increased growth without corresponding increase in photosynthesis may cause stress in the plant.

Tried to Rep ya. Sounds like you've been studying, didn't see your name for next weeks test though.

 

[ropensaddle]

I would say that they have a clue, often a general understanding. One will notice that the more expert a person is, them ore qualifying statements they will use. "generally" "More often then not"....

As with anyone, the more educated we become, the more we know how little we actually know.

I am figuring that out lol




The problem, which I was alluding to, is the law of confounding variables; there are so many things going on that we may not be able to know the exact problem.

Bulk density seems to be the biggest limiting factor in any nutrient-uptake problem, so I lean towards addressing it before anything else.

On "improved" properties, the two factors with bulk density are compaction and dirth of organics. Both can be addressed with amending or replacing. Quite often replacing is easier then trying to excavate and mix amendments into native soils. I will just mix a little natives into the outer area for transition.


I understood your meaning jps the unseen universe below ground is very complicated.


Something to revisit is my objection to the industries tendency to talk about mulch while applying fresh chip. True mulch needs a of compost, and dumping fresh chip onto an old chip ring often does not do the job.

I will not get into my diatribe against landscrapers who have commoditized the practice of "mulching"....

I composted my chips at least partially. I really wonder I can obtain fully composted material for a small charge. It is race horse manure composted with hay and wood compost added in. It has too fine of texture imo maybe mixed in with my aged wood chips. I like the mulch to be able to breath.

 

[ropensaddle]

Tried to Rep ya. Sounds like you've been studying, didn't see your name for next weeks test though.

Yes I am preparing to test. I have been slow so the money was not there. Maybe the next time!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I like the mulch to be able to breath.

A agree, I guess i was pecking at the keyboard too fast though i will refer back to the earlier post where I noted that too much organic will retain water. Very fine organic soil is called muck for a reason

 

[ropensaddle]

A agree, I guess i was pecking at the keyboard too fast though i will refer back to the earlier post where I noted that too much organic will retain water. Very fine organic soil is called muck for a reason

Muck, lol, I have been in the muck,muck of my life

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Muck, lol, I have been in the muck,muck of my life

That stuff does not wash out with lye soap and a wire brush!

 

[Treepedo]

Mulching I agree should include all the levels of decay.
But then you have to contend with weeds.
WHat we try to practice is place a layer of compost then aerate( couple people with good ol 4 tine garden forks and then place the appropriate mulch, hardwood, hemlock, pine whatever appropriate to the species.

Something to revisit is my objection to the industries tendency to talk about mulch while applying fresh chip. True mulch needs a of compost, and dumping fresh chip onto an old chip ring often does not do the job.

QUOTE]

 

[pdqdl]

This nut is I have been actively studying this topic lately so this topic has broadened my perspective...

I was surprised to see this old thread brought back to the top of the list. Good stuff from a variety of sources; I had forgotten many of the points presented. Thanks for bringing this back up.

 

[pdqdl]

...

As with anyone, the more educated we become, the more we know how little we actually know.
...

My very first college professor (biology) made a big point of that thought in his first lecture. I was trying to make my 14 year old daughter understand that concept just a couple of days ago, so we think very much alike on that subject.



BTW: My daughter is entering a special school next year pursuing the most difficult high-school diploma available: International Baccalaureate. There are only 13 high schools in our state that offer this diploma. As you might guess, I am a bit proud of her choice.

http://www.ibo.org/who/

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

My very first college professor (biology) made a big point of that thought in his first lecture. I was trying to make my 14 year old daughter understand that concept just a couple of days ago, so we think very much alike on that subject.



BTW: My daughter is entering a special school next year pursuing the most difficult high-school diploma available: International Baccalaureate. There are only 13 high schools in our state that offer this diploma. As you might guess, I am a bit proud of her choice.

Overview of the International Baccalaureate

So she takes after her mama?

 

[David (saltas)]

I composted my chips at least partially. I really wonder I can obtain fully composted material for a small charge. It is race horse manure composted with hay and wood compost added in. It has too fine of texture imo maybe mixed in with my aged wood chips. I like the mulch to be able to breath.

race horses are full of chemicals, drugs & hormones.

get your horse manure from a kid who is selling "pony pooh" for pocket money on the side of the road.

need to re read some of this again.

 

[sgreanbeans]

This got me thinking about hardwood mulch, the stuff you buy from the store, in bags, with color dye. Anybody know how the dye effects the composting ability of the mulch?
I take my chips to buddy who has a Morbark tub grinder, then go back and buy it from him after he grinds it twice and throw's a little brown dye on it, nice stuff, seems to break down alright, but still curious on the dye.

 

[sgreanbeans]

By the way

Good stuff guys, gooooooooooooood stuff!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

This got me thinking about hardwood mulch, the stuff you buy from the store, in bags, with color dye. Anybody know how the dye effects the composting ability of the mulch?
I take my chips to buddy who has a Morbark tub grinder, then go back and buy it from him after he grinds it twice and throw's a little brown dye on it, nice stuff, seems to break down alright, but still curious on the dye.

It is supposed to be a organic that breaks down it's self, you would need to read the product label. I would not be surprised if some were actually preserving. Some are selling tire shreds as mulch these days :msp_confused:

I do not like fine ground mulch, it tends to lock up and become hydrophobic. If mixed with a course chip it will break down faster.

I have seen beds with twice ground chip where I dig into them in a driving rain, and 1/2 inch into the mass of mulch it is bone dry. I have had landscapers tell me that you need to turn it regularly, but that is counter to tree preservation. regularly tearing the fine roots is not a good thing.

Mulch as become like everything else, the uneducated get their hands on a concept, then commoditize the process, turning something beneficial into a more is better business model.

True mulch is composted, chip is not.

Another problem i have with much of the commercial product is that there is a lot of construction waste in there, unless it is labeled as a heterogeneous product (cedar mulch...) I always wonder what else is there if scrap from a demo is in the chip.

 

[pdqdl]

So she takes after her mama?

I'm not sure...I'm the smart one, but her mother (no dummy, by the way) is much more organized and harder working than I am. I suspect that she gets a little from both of us.

 

[pdqdl]

...
I do not like fine ground mulch, it tends to lock up and become hydrophobic. ...
I have seen beds with twice ground chip where I dig into them in a driving rain, and 1/2 inch into the mass of mulch it is bone dry. I have had landscapers tell me that you need to turn it regularly, but that is counter to tree preservation. regularly tearing the fine roots is not a good thing.
...

The problem with the hydrophobic mulch is that SOME fungi that decompose the chips form a dense mat of mycelium that repels water. I'm not sure why that is, because it seems that the fungi would prefer an environment with more water. Perhaps by drying things out, they eliminate competition with other organisms?

Either way, stirring the mulch pile breaks up the mycelieal mats, and redistributes the decay organisms throughout the pile and eliminates stratification. Stirring is good, if you want rapid decomposition.

Curiously, if you want your wood chips to become compost, you need to fertilize the pile!

WE'RE BACK ON TOPIC!!

Urea or other high nitrogen materials add the element that is lacking in most wood products: nitrogen! The energy (cellulose) is there, the decay organisms are there, and ideal growing conditions are present. Add N, and the fungi begin growing like weeds.
********************************************************
In your example of "rabid mulch" above, I'll bet there were no fine tree roots present. In my experience, the tree roots don't grow into the deep mulch piles that have become waterproof. Stirring the pile does tear up the fine roots, but that seems like a good idea to me. If the landscraper keeps adding fresh mulch, you had better keep the roots from stabilizing the pile; otherwise the tree will eventually get buried by the new mulch added every year.

One of my biggest complaints about the landscaping industry is that they keep adding a fresh layer of mulch to the old pile, without ever stirring or removing any. This leads to massive piles of rabid (hydrophobic) mulch that doesn't look right and doesn't do the landscape any good, either.

 

[sgreanbeans]

This leads to massive piles of rabid (hydrophobic) mulch that doesn't look right and doesn't do the landscape any good, either.

We call them "pyramids" They just keep piling it on. Some trees have over a ft! They sometimes suffer from ridiculitus around here!

When mulch compost's, it creates quite a bit of heat, could that lead to the hyrdophobic condition? I have pulled up "waffles" of mulch that seem to have been "baked" together. Isn't this part of the decaying process? So when I pull it a part, the materiel that is in the "waffle"seems to be broken down more than the materiel that is still loose. In that case, am I jacking up the process by breaking up the waffles?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I have pulled up "waffles" of mulch that seem to have been "baked" together. Isn't this part of the decaying process?

These are probably the mycelieal mats. Mycelium are the fungal "roots" that the organism sends out to colonize a body of organic matter.

I wonder about the competition strategy model, it does not seem quite right to me. The chip pile is an unnatural event, so I think it is more of a hypertophic problem; it just grows big too fast. The fungi would benefit for deeper water penetration because it can propigate so fast. Just my $0.02. (I want a 2cent smiley I hate typing the code)

Maybe it is the particle size that allows the my proposed hypertrophy to occur??

In your example of "rabid mulch" above, I'll bet there were no fine tree roots present. In my experience, the tree roots don't grow into the deep mulch piles that have become waterproof. Stirring the pile does tear up the fine roots, but that seems like a good idea to me.

Yes, breaking up the piles of poorly mulched trees/beds is a good thing. I tend to spread them out further if possible. I find that if we talk about tilling or turning uneducated people try to mechanize and add it to the commoditized service. Amending with
a good compost has been shown to help too.

The pyramid, or mulch volcano, is an international problem. Maintenance companies do not want to listen to current science because it interferes with the business model. Hence my calling a commotiziation, which leads to ab-use of a process, much like the labor pools used to do the work.

 

[pdqdl]

...

I wonder about the competition strategy model, it does not seem quite right to me. The chip pile is an unnatural event, so I think it is more of a hypertophic problem; it just grows big too fast. The fungi would benefit for deeper water penetration because it can propigate so fast. Just my $0.02. (I want a 2cent smiley I hate typing the code)

Maybe it is the particle size that allows the my proposed hypertrophy to occur??
...

Not really an accurate assumption there, JPS. The mycelium mats are a naturally occuring event, well known in the lawn-scraper side of the business. They are not limited to mulch piles at all, and are probably more commonly known and understood in the lawns than they are in the mulch.

Ever heard of fairy rings? They toss up rings of mushrooms about this time of year, and consist of a dead circle of grass for the rest of the year. What is happening is the mycelial mats are causing a localized dry spot (also a well known phenomenon) in a circular shape. In the spring, they put up the spore producing structures (mushroom), and folklore used to attribute that to the ring that the fairies were dancing in killing off the grass.

They usually grow bigger each year; the biggest I have seen was about 50' in diameter. As the ring grows, the mycelial mat begins to break down with the complete decomposition of buried organic material. Grass begins to return to the area, and you get a ring of dead grass that creeps across the yard, year after year. They are often surrounded by a ring of darker green grass, because the fungus is actually enriching the soil with the decomposition, but killing it in the center with the water-impermeable mycelium.

The recommended treatment for that any any other "localized dry spot" is to till the soil, disturb the mycelial mat, and restore water percolation to the area.

Some pics:
http://www.genexpest.com/FairyRing.jpg
http://www.topturf.net/lawncare/images/fairy-ring.jpg

Note the dark green circles:
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQIFgQA-LhvmS3iF55uJ1n904YI2AYTnOnBgRa2jqo-dGytJ8-

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

My understanding of the fairy ring was that the fungus was using up the N on the leading edge, and releasing it in the visible ring.

A quick search reveals both explanations for turf dieback, FWIW.