Achilles Heel of many Arborists? Not a "Horticulturist"

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My background in nursery, propagation, commercial landscaping and grounds maintenance has held me in very good stead when I made the transition to climbing arborist.

I have a couple of properties where I can work in the big trees and also prune the roses.
I am often asked for advice on planting, transplanting, design and hardscaping. I'll happily give some pointers but then I will hand off any landscape specific work to those I know can devote the time and have the expertise and resources to do the work. Leave the trees to me though!

What bites is when landscapers without the specific knowledge necessary to carry out large tree work correctly and/or safely jump in and muck it all up!

It is great to specialize, but a specialist should have a passing knowledge of other areas of 'horticulture' if only to realize when they are out of their depth and know when to call on someone else!
 
Bermie said:
It is great to specialize, but a specialist should have a passing knowledge of other areas of 'horticulture' if only to realize when they are out of their depth and know when to call on someone else!
I'm with Bermie. A knowledge of horticulture is more important than a full indulgence in it. Example; I bid a lightning-struck, 3/4 dead oak yesterday for takedown. Then the question came up about what to do with the Pachysandra at the base. I thought immediately to this thread.

I could have offered a number of options, but when you express knowledge, it's sort of implies that you can do the work, which may be true, but the last thing I wanted to do with my time was to either describe what to do with this ground cover or actually do the work.

Yes, I could have, no, I didn't want any part of it, even if it paid the same as my technical climbing rate.

Now if I did, wouldn't that be like taking food off the plate of the pro who would love that work? I refer out a lot of hort / landscape work. These contractors love me for it as much as I love them for tree referrals. When they start doing tree work, I get calls to come clean up their mess, and as any treeguy can attest, the last thing you're interested in is cleaning up tree debris from some other tree worker.
 
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Maybe landscape arborists should have THEIR own ISA cert. instead of making climbers and aerial workers get another one. Call it Landscape Arborist, or Groundbound Investigative Arborist, or maybe Groundbound Investigative Consulting Diagnosis and PHC Specialist Arborist. or Shrimpy Tree Arborist, or something like that.

In reality, landscape work...design, perrenial care, shrubs, (although I can see where they COULD fall under an Arborists care) have very limited application to an Arborist' workload, or need for expertise.

I am very distressed that although plainly stated that MD wanted all arborists and landscapers grouped together under the same licensing and certifications no one else seemed to have a problem with that. This to me is much more distressing than whether or not they carry a CA. card or not. They are two separate jobs, insured at different rates, and performing different functions. Should all carpenters be electricians? Or all plumbers escavators? Maybe all contractors should be beauticians?

This is not an elitist mentality. Landscapers that I know are true professionals and I praise them highly as knowledgable in their work and expertise. Just stay out of my trees, and I will keep off your flowers.
 
This is not an elitist mentality. Landscapers that I know are true professionals and I praise them highly as knowledgable in their work and expertise. Just stay out of my trees, and I will keep off your flowers.
It is a separatist mentality. If it works for you, fine, but I have more control over the trees when I have some control over the landscape, where the roots are. There is more to a tree than branches. You don't do tree care unless you do root care.
 
Treeseer
I have no problem with your point in doing root care to care for the trees...very good point.
What I have a problem with is lumping landscapers with tree trimmers in commercial applications, ie licensing, governing boards, and certifications. I am not saying that someone cannot be both but they are two separate entities. (Example: I am a brother and a husband, and a father...but because I am one does not make me the other)

Maybe my statement about the flowers seems somewhat harsh, brutal, or maybe just sarcastic, but I am dealing up here with alot of landscapers pulling jobs away from me...not because they have more knowledge...but because they pay less overhead (namely insurance) and therefore can underbid me. Obviously they do not compete with me on any difficult trees, but it would be nice to do an easy job once in awhile. And their trimming methods, and results look like (insert negative expletive of your own choosing).

So if my attitude sounds separatist..yes it is. Separatist, Specialist, and maybe a little arrogant and defensive as well. I think I have earned my arrogance, proven my specialty, and paid for my sparatism.
 
Around here to the public a landscaper is a grass cutter, and grass cutting is what they do mostly. True landscapers are certified landscape architects, not arborists. Architects are not the best arborists either, or the best at tree care.

Tree selection, tree care (all phases), is a part of being a arborist. Grouping a landscaper in with certified arborists IMO really devalues a certification.

As far as being a climbing certified arborist, you can't do a true hazard tree analysis, or tree evaluation without going up (whatever method necessary). If there are really any issues with the tree (usually why they call) you will need a closer inspection. That is why on a ground inspection, "aerial inspection required" is common. If you inspect from the ground and have someone else inspect aerial issues, you are not inspecting the tree.. they are.

IMO you cannot fully evaluate without the option of aerial inspection, and being able to do so makes you a better conslutant and arborist.
 
It's not a competition.

I agree with Ugly's insurance issues. I had a couple years where my liability insurance listed me as "landscape services". No discrespect to our brother green industry, but Arborists do things that landscapers and landscape architects do not do, and our danger level is potentially higher. I had to confront my insurer a number of times and they kept telling me Arborists fall under landscape coverage. I told them flatout that I felt, the way the policy was written, that if I had a property damage claim, doing what I do, that they could deny a claim based on that I didn't have insurance that covered what it was that I was doing.

They admitted they didn't have specific policies for Arborists. I said, OK, been nice doing business with you, but with as much risk as I face every day, I can't have my insurer BEING part of the risk. I went shopping and found an Arborist-specific policy from another insurer.
 
If you inspect from the ground and have someone else inspect aerial issues, you are not inspecting the tree.. they are.

IMO you cannot fully evaluate without the option of aerial inspection, and being able to do so makes you a better conslutant and arborist.
Absolutely. I've learned that saying that to some ASCA members will not make you popular, but it's very obvious and very true.

My money's on me, but everyone is making good points. Individuals all draw their own lines on this stuff, according to expertise and preference.
 
I'd argue that actively engaging in the balance of turf/trees/horticulture in day to day operations, you'd be effectively burning the candle at three ends and losing a great deal of your focus for any one particular field.

Acquiring and retaining the knowledge is an obvious advantage for one's grasp of the environment they typically operate in, but aside from providing compelling data and converting jargon or latin to english for a client, I could see a lot of lines being blurred and a major saturation of my services occurring.

Operating in a smaller region helps you appreciate the economic diversity angle as well. There are tiny companies scraping together change to send their up and comers off for hort diplomas or urban arboriculture apprenticeships and sure the fly by night landscapers and tree services are a disease to society, but the legitimate operators lead by example and struggle away with professionalism as a major priority. We gladly send work to these people, and very often is it reciprocated.
On the other hand, perpetuating vast-sweeping biases does nothing for customer confidence and makes for uncomfortable confrontations on job sites.

I have a diploma in turfgrass management and I can offer the client comprehensive advice from 5 years experience as an assistant superintendent at high end golf clubs, but clients barely want to take tree advice, let alone draw your opinions on their lawn. Leave the hort to horts. Leave the arb to arbs. I'll stick with arboriculture thank you very much.
 
I agree "obvious"... so I don't see what the big debate is. Just being a climber does not make an arborist, just passing a test does not make an arborist IMO. All true arborists know some about turf and other woody shrubs. Either as vectors for insect, or disease, or just good PHC.

I suppose your abilities and/or practices will determine how good an arborist one really is.

I understand how people who climb, and worked their way up to gain the knowledge have a different view on those who only consult or have never actually done the work. I would think it is tough to cover all the bases and really know without knowing "how". That is just my opinion.

Just to add, I think being an arborist is a separatist thing. I am proud to be able to do what I do, and know what I know. I don't claim to be a landscaper, and would not appreciate a landscaper trying to tell me about aboraculture, or how to climb.
We are in this field because it is different so I don't see whats wrong with that.
 
Maybe landscape arborists should have THEIR own ISA cert. instead of making climbers and aerial workers get another one. separate jobs, insured at different rates, and performing different functions. Should all carpenters be electricians? Or all plumbers escavators? Maybe all contractors should be beauticians?.....Just stay out of my trees, and I will keep off your flowers.

I'm a Certified Arborist and a Certified Landscape Technician.

Every tree I plant (that alone) is Arboriculture.

For me, utilizing both certificates requires near identical science, knowlege and skill.

Every tree pruned, is landscape maintenence.

In fact, every arborist who mainly prunes and climbs landscape trees is a landscape maintenance worker, focusing on one component primarily. And if large trees only within a garden / landscape, then that's being a deluxe scale gardener.

Its similar to how a forest is not trees, but everything in the forest.

To not understand that, one might not have been trained in multiple phases of horticulture.

I've heard similar comments from a landscape architect who had not performed professional pruning, and from landscape contractors who have only installed - but never maintained.

In almost every case, its the "one facet" professional who argues a difference in the science, knowledge and skill. And the thing that jumps out immediately, is their signicant lack of experience or work in multiple phases, otherwise they would comprehend its the same knowledge technical base being utilized slighty differently.

The professionals whom I meet with the greatest understanding of the single knowledge base, are typically men and women who have a balanced position - frequently, the superintendents / managers / curators of university campuses horticulture crews, arboretums / botanical gardens, etc.. They are full-phase professionals, using all phases of horticulture. They understand that there is no real separation of tree care and landscape garden care in regards to the primary "knowledge pool".

I see nothing wrong at all with people "specializing" in any niche, as long as they do it right. Any "distressing" matter, is merely a specialist who claims a distinction in the knowledge and skill base.

Even the stereotype "landscape maintenance" company SHOULD fully understand enough to pass the Certified Arborist test. How can they fertilize and do herbicide applications in turf where trees are present if they don't know such things?

How can they prune small medium size trees if they don't understand such things? Just one point alone: they could sunburn a big tree by the removal of foliage on a small tree at the wrong time of year.

So the point of the whole trade being WELDED together is etched in stone: its indisputable from the perspective of professionals who have practised basic mastery of muliple facets.

I've contracted the removal of many large trees, but had to postpone until winter to spare sunburn to gardens and OTHER small trees (arboriculture and gardening). Other times, irrigation has been installed, and arboriculture (tree) knowledge was essential to avoid trenching across the roots.

In fact, a third of my customers have been advised on how to route future irrigation lines for extra landscape and garden pop-up sprinklers. There is arboriculture as an essential component of consulting involving gardens. But when we are honest, we see that the garden consulting became, or was, tree consulting simultaneously.
 
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Gosh Mario I am so used to disagreeing with you about risk on the buzz that this is hard to say--

You Are Right! :clap:

The more you see the big picture, the more we look the same.

:blob6:
 
I agree with Guy and Mario. I started in straight tree work, doing things to trees. As I have expanded services, since 1967, and then gotten into teaching, I find myself doing more things for trees, and at a higher price than before, since I am saving the tree, to work on it again in the future. If we put the right tree in the right place, we eliminate the need for some of the big tree work in the future. If we provide good growing conditions, we eliminate some of the defects that are likely to occur from damaged roots and stress.
I teach my forestry students turf management, since most people want grass and trees in their lawn and the two do not naturally like each other. (Come visit the Great Plains and look for trees that were not planted. The same for finding grass in thick timber.) When we understand trees and all their associates, as Alex Shigo always pointed out, we better understand how to create the conditions to help them coexist with people, the true aboricultural job description.
Nature designed each plant to grow to a certain size and age. She did not design them to fail. Therefore, if the arborist cares for the soil (where the plant gets everything, except sunlight and carbon dioxide) and plants the right plant in the right place, he will in theory never need to do major work, until the life expectancy of the plant is reached in 50 - 500 years.
I realize that this is a simplistic look at the profession, but nature takes care of the tree, we take care of the customer and mitigate the effects that they have on the tree. And I charge the same for labor on this work as for the removal, pruning jobs, with much lower equipment requirements, and generally less liability.
By the way I do still climb regularly and will until it is no longer fun or physically impossible. Almost every one of our hort and forestry students take the climbing class, so that they have the basics needed to check out something if need be, even though many never climb regularly on the job.
 
"I went shopping and found an Arborist-specific policy from another insurer". -Treemachine

I have this specific type of insurance as well. A lot of landscapers think they are covered, but are not. When bidding I inform the customer that I have Tree specific insurance and they should insist on it as well.

Very interesting topic. I myself am not an arborist or horticulturist, I do removals (guess I'm just a tree cutter). I do, however, make my customers aware that I am not an arborist and will refer them to one if they require one or if I feel the scope of the work requires one.
 
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I teach my forestry students turf management, since most people want grass and trees in their lawn and the two do not naturally like each other. (Come visit the Great Plains and look for trees that were not planted. The same for finding grass in thick timber.) When we understand trees and all their associates, as Alex Shigo always pointed out, we better understand how to create the conditions to help them coexist with people, the true aboricultural job description.

Underwor...

Since there were no tree care classes at southern Oregon colleges, I offered a few at the local community college (community ed) for homeowners, landscapers or municipal workers; including a bit of turf education also, like the difference between intercalary meristem and apical meristem so the students could understand foliage removal more completely. That tied-in with the "would a nail in a tree move upward with age" questions (areas of cell division / cell elongation, etc.). Anyhow, it seemed to help them understand what was, and what was not happening in different plants and trees.

____________________


Different subject....

Tiny example: customers can be saved money by tree workers being able to recognize garden plants. Suppose we notice that an entire planting beneath a tree is Hosta, daylily, bishop's weed and Siberian Iris? In that case, we may ask people if they are willing to schedule major pruning of the tree, or trees, until winter, so limbs can be cut and dropped straight down, if other factors allow that safely. Possibly saving $100, $200 or more in labor.

If a planting beneath is azalea, odds are they are all brittle, and will remain standing, and the question wouldn't come-up. Everything gets roped-down.

There are about 8 customers per year that I recommend this for - about one every month and a half.

Some customers have pruning that can easily wait 7 to 10 weeks until autumn, and if I'm aware that they want some new trees planted (but without having to babysit them), their pruning can hold-off until October, and the trees can be planted while we are out there in many cases. That frequently chops travel time off the fees.

For each aspect of this horticulture (arboriculture + landscape gardening), I make sure they understand why the work was scheduled the way it was, and either the benefits that were gained, or how much money they saved. The advice helps them, but the communication enables the favor to be returned. That customer education retains customers and gains referrals. Best I can tell, it provides more income than what may seem to have been lost.

Landscape designers and architects...

I think these folks should know reams about trees too. It would do wonders for plenty of them to either work and clean-up with tree services, or, to watch a couple of arborist / ground-man teams for a week. Then they could grasp problems that designs could cause or avoid, and what's involved to prune and clean-up.
 
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Bravo!

I'm seeing that I'm more a landscape manager than I thought.
A specialist in pruning at heights, I am not above pruning anything, I like it all. Like any of us, we tend to gravitate to what pays the best, but when you find yourself pruning dead stems out of your clients rose bushes or pruning the hydrangea off the side of the house when it's not even on your estimate, you're doing it because you simply love plants, big, small, woody, perennials, bushes, trees.

Crossing the line, if there is one, from arbo to hort really is necessary to be a more complete part of the big picture. Even the soil, as Dr Bob says, requires attention, though very few Arborists apply care below the root flare.

I find this thread thoroughly enlightening. Thanks to all.
 
I used to advertise ....

Garden maintenance, renovation and design. A lot of our work used to be rejuvenating or renovating old gardens and putting in new ones ... some trees etc would go, stumps out, in with the new, lovelly.

So what happened?

Every lawn man overnight became a landscaper, yep, they now had a lawnmower and a wheel barrow. :hmm3grin2orange:

Then they slowly bought chainsaws and now you get the odd stump to grind as they bought grinders too.

You'll be surprised how dominant in the tree market lawn mower mobs have become.

I dare to say those who are not willing to smell the roses may find themselves smelling the soup kitchen the way things are going. You certainly need to have broader knowledge and understand the larger picture.

Times are changing, and unlike other professions it's no requirement to be either a lawmman, horticulturist or arborist to do our jobs (unfortunately). For those who have city ordinances to such, be thankful. :bowdown:
 
Well I now see the error of my ways, and I apologize to the intellectuals who tell me that I am a hack because I do not know the latin name for a petunia.

Yup, I am a separatist, specialist, or elitist, or just plain arrogant, if those are the labels you want to give me. I find it very offensive to be attacked for my lack of knowledge, and whatever knowledge I have to be negated because I did not have the option to spend four years in college studying flowers. MD, you are right...everyone who mows a lawn or plants a flower deffinitely knows tree work better than I do...definitely see that they are covered under the same licensing and certification boards. I can see why now that it is important I learn the latin name for a dandelion....otherwise I could never be an arborist.

ME, I will just continue trying to care for trees and customers concerns with them. Good luck with your gardens.
 

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