Achilles Heel of many Arborists? Not a "Horticulturist"

[Justice]

treeseer........

tamarack with brown needles.......

thats just a dead pine tree!!

LOL

 

[Tree Machine]

We get bald cypress that die like that, too.

 

[Justice]

LOL

Funny but true! Get calls every year for new home owners ..."why did my pine tree die?""

Hopefully you get there before its too late.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

LOL

Funny but true! Get calls every year for new home owners ..."why did my pine tree die?""

Hopefully you get there before its too late.

And in winter when they call like that, its it's own little angle. Needles on the ground, they think its dead, and its not a pine, and they don't know what it is. So is it a cedar of Lebanon that lost its needles, or is is a larch that should be without needles. If removal is not needed, hopefully they need pruning so the trip was not a waste of time.

 

[treeseer]

If removal is not needed, hopefully they need pruning so the trip was not a waste of time.

If it's a paid consult, no worries. If not, the watchful arborist will find some maintenance work to sell. I'd think the tree owner would be so grateful they'd let you get busy and pay for your time.

 

[treesandsurf]

I agree. If you can see the larger picture you are much more valuable than someone who only see's the trees in a landscape. Also, for the arborist often times the more professional and appropriate decision should be removal and replanting. So many trees are just not suited for the conditions that humans subject them too.

If the arborist has the ability to recommend removal, and THEN recommend an appropriate species for re-planting for that particular situation... well then that arbo is one bad mofo.

jp

 

[Ekka]

I know of some crazy tree cutters who'd bring a tree down faster than most arborists would tie a knot.

What I find ironic is the number of customers who I've cut down trees for seeking the services of a "horticulturist" from a nursery ... that's exactly where things went wrong in the first place, wrong tree, wrong spot etc.

Just the other day I was in a nursery where the horticulturists spend 99% of their time around potted saplings and flowers tagging up Leopard trees. The tag said the trees grow to height maximum of 10m and width 6m.

Perhaps so if you plant it in the pot!

As a fellow arborist diagnosed his work load he realised with 40% or so of their work being pruning that many a nursery is still selling wrong tree wrong spot. Doesn't help when tags are a mile out on information either.

Frankly, the mix has to be horticulturist/landscaper/landscape maintenance/arborist.

Anyway, here's a pic of a leopard tree and they do get bigger than this!

 

[treeseer]

Nice tree there Eric. Is it in the wrong spot just because it needs pruning?

I think not.

Arborists should sell arboriculture first, and removal/replacement only when arboriculture will not meet the owners' goals. imo.

 

[Ekka]

Nice tree there Eric. Is it in the wrong spot just because it needs pruning?

I think not.

Well, here's some of the facts.

The neighbour now has a tree trespassing the boundary, dropping mess onto his roof and driveway.

Leopard trees drop a very hard seed the size of a matchbox, not nice on cars, mowers or to slip on. Also they are noisy when they drop so during the night you get woken by these seeds dropping on the roof and sometimes rolling/sliding down to the gutter. What if you had an expensive car parked on the driveway?

Then the trees are semi deciduous and have a fine leaf, about the size of your little finger nail. The leaves tend to stick to things and not blow away. Many times they work their way into the cars ventilation/airconditioning system and you get blasted with dried leaves or a crunching as the fan mulches them.

The trees distance from the house is closer than it's height, this violates AS 2870-1996 standard for foundations in reactive clay soils.

In the amended attached picture below the guy on the right could cut back to boundary (target cuts irrelevant) what is shown in red. Also the building could likely be cracking where the pink x's are. Either way the guy on the right could put the tree owner on notice for a subsidence and consequential $20K plus under pinning bill.

All in all knowing the big picture, the consequences and the regulations pertaining to more than trees one could say very poor planting decision.

Oh, an engineers recommendation would be removal of course but failing that topping to height what the distance is from the house ... yes, if the tree is 10' away from the house then it cannot exceed 10' in height.

They are the facts, scream what you like for the tree however if I were the neighbour I'd put the owner on notice (legally) and suggest if he wanted to retain the tree he build an appropriate engineered root barrier which last time I looked was a 2m deep, 300mm wide reinforced concrete wall, that will stop the roots and hold soil in place not allowing subsidence and movement.

So, you also need to know engineering standards, or try to plead ignorance when ya ass is sued for poor landscape selection/design after the owner has to underpin.

Oh, one last fact, the guy could have planted it where the blue X is and kept the whole tree and it's associated issues to himself!

 

[treeseer]

interesting story. many other issues besides branch pruning. no questions except the AS 4373 deal about distance and soils; overkill?.

what is that thing on the pole in the yard, a light to shine on the street?

tree located originally maybe due to turf worship; people want their lawn and the tree too, despite reality.That, and maybe the nursery chap said it was a small tree at maturity!

 

[treesandsurf]

Arborists should sell arboriculture first, and removal/replacement only when arboriculture will not meet the owners' goals. imo.

Well of course, if people planted the right tree for the right place we wouldn't have a job (for the most part).

But the fact remains that many times 'arborists' simply become 'vegetation managers' because their clients don't want that large looming tree to look so dangerous, or block their views or drop so many fruits on the lawn etc. etc. etc.

jp

 

[Ekka]

Spot on Treeseer.

I dont make the rules just have to know them.

It is a beautiful tree and if I were asked to do the fence line cut I'd walk!

Turf worshipping has gone away now with the drought, would have been a nice mulched shady garden with winter and summer flowering shrubs beneath, could have been a real eye stopper, but lawn ruled the day, however the new era of water conservation and small trees is coming.

Guy, I have seen too many cracked houses this year, they all crack on the side of large trees, it's no coincidence. Brisbane usually escaped the issue due to their 1200mm per year rainfall, however 3 years of maybe 500mm with long periods of no rain has brought us in line with other states and their associated clay engineering problems.

The irony of AS4373 pertaining to pruning is when it comes to fence line cutting the rule is throw away to a certain degree. If the neighbour refuses access and cutting beyond the fence line (aiming for target cuts) then you get a fence line stub job. I avoid it like hell but have done it on some species that can take it like lillypilly and fiddlewood, but not decent big trees, that's just not on.

Also spot on Treeandsurf, there'd be little arb work without nuisence trees/branches etc. In fact not so long ago in a publication here there was a story about the new urban environment ... trees only in parks and footpaths due to the ever decreasing size of building blocks and the increase of townhouses etc. The future seems to be flowering shrubs for the most part of new suburbia.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

tree located originally maybe due to turf worship; people want their lawn and the tree too, despite reality.

That accounted for a few trees "shoved in corners" here too.

But one other aspect in our area causes that as well...actually 2 aspects...

1. Landscape designers tuck the trees in corners. Looks cute intitially, but is way out of proportion after 10 or more years. I call it "tree in the corner syndrome" as one of the great landscape design defects.

2. In new home construction, where installations are on a not-so-generous budget for the yard, the landscapers expenses are less if they don't have to haul away any sod. 500 square feet is the minimum order on a pallet. By making the front beds more narrow, and tucking trees into corners, they can install almost all of their sod, and have none to haul away: saving time and money.

#2 is what I'd call "window display" arrangement, and not any kind of real horticulture. And, wouldn't just be an "Achilles Heel" of a landscaper, but Gangrene of the landscaper.

 

[underwor]

Sustainable Landscaping

Have you seen the articles about establishing a certification system for sustainable landscaping. This is much like the sustainable forest management or sustainable agriculture. Do you think it will lead to more responsible landscaping? I think I will bring it up to our landscape students and see what they think. Here is a link to one site on the subject at University of Minnesota.

http://www.sustland.umn.edu/

 

[Boa07]

Ekka's observation of the state of affairs in Queensland is sadly accurate for the most part....thankfully the rest of the country is not as unhinged as our state, NSW now has the Trees (Disputes Between Neighbours) Act 2006 and has been able to slap down numerous ridiculous claims placed against trees for leaf flower and fruit drop ....Unfortunately it is unlikely that we will adopt the powerful piece of legislation anytime soon, by the time Queenslanders realise the true value of the urban forest they are so addicted to slashing down they will have created the kind of inhospitable environment none of us wish to live in.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Have you seen the articles about establishing a certification system for sustainable landscaping. This is much like the sustainable forest management or sustainable agriculture. Do you think it will lead to more responsible landscaping? I think I will bring it up to our landscape students and see what they think. Here is a link to one site on the subject at University of Minnesota.

http://www.sustland.umn.edu/

Couldn't get it to load the link tonight. But it will probably work later. I'll try tomorrow after work.

I wonder if what you mean by sustainable landscaping is related to an article I submitted to a landscape designer association newsletter. Basically, it stated that pruning and knowledge of pruning, was among the highest priorities of knowledge that a landscape designer would need to design long-term landscapes. In other words, a landscape designer would need to be an expert of pruning needs for plants, as well as the growth habits of plants and trees.

The concept is that if any plant or tree is to remain indefinitely in a landscape, there has to be a pruning solution for it. The tree or shrub must always be capable of being steered in some direction - manipulated. Or, it must be able to handle a cut-back - like where Yew can make new buds from bare stubbed stems, but arborvitae can't.

Many landscape designers were not highly excited about that subject.

 

[treeseer]

I call it "tree in the corner syndrome" as one of the great landscape design defects.

#2 is what I'd call "window display" arrangement, and not any kind of real horticulture. And, wouldn't just be an "Achilles Heel" of a landscaper, but Gangrene of the landscaper.

Painfully accrate here too and around the world it seems. I'm currently butting heads with a designer who insists on imposing a "structure" outside a ballfield with broad turf, trees in circles, using 25 red maples when I've documented dozens of well-adapted species that do very well in the area, and a community need for shrubs and perennials instead of lawn to mow.

They are a stubborn bunch, who seem to see themselves as endowed by their Creator to create cookie-cutter visions that barely consider the site, and ignore maintenance. If I see another bed of oaks 6' apart I'd like to tear one out of the ground and whup it upside their heads. The least we can do is get their planting specs right:

"9. The planting diagrams are out of compliance with national standards ANSI A300 (Part 5), which require the trunk flare to be at or just above grade. The ASLA is a signator on these standards, so all members are required to follow them.
The plan refers to the “root ball”, an artificial location with no biological significance. The earth saucer inside the dripline and the narrow prepared area are also out of compliance. New plantings will establish much better with lower maintenance if large natural areas are prepared, instead of small planting holes, each surrounded by invasive turfgrass."

 

[woodchux]

I'd be happy if the landscapers would just stop planting row after row of trees directly underneath the powerlines.

 

[Ekka]

trees in circles, using 25 red maples when I've documented dozens of well-adapted species that do very well in the area, and a community need for shrubs and perennials instead of lawn to mow.

They are a stubborn bunch, who seem to see themselves as endowed by their Creator to create cookie-cutter visions that barely consider the site, and ignore maintenance. If I see another bed of oaks 6' apart I'd like to tear one out of the ground and whup it upside their heads.

Over here just switch the trees for palms!

Another job coming up this week, 26 palms getting the royal removal ... and that's after the customer already has had 9 out prior.

At least you can do something with a tree but leaves on a stick, aint much you can do about that! :chainsawguy: