Amsoil Saber, Tanaka Perfect Mix, Universal One-Mix 80:1 100:1 affect RPM?

[dsell]

I have customers using one mix products. I ask what ratio of mix they use and they tell me they put a tube of oil in a gallon of gas. All I have is 32:1 and typically, their tank is empty, contaminated, bad fuel lines, etc. Point is, I don't have fuel to test and set the carb. I just had 4 saws dropped off and he uses Tanaka perfect mix. He squeezes the bottle and puts that in 1 gallon. I completely rebuilt the saw 2 years ago and it looks like it's been ran 10 years. The plug threads are saturated in concentrated black oil goo, and the exhaust port looks the same. The piston has brown residue covering it and the top of the piston is well carboned. So, I started looking into these one mix products.

Saber Amsoil, they ran two tests on string trimmers, Echos and Redmax. I was told by a factory rep that they left the carb needles at the factory setting on the Redmax test. The Redmax test used 50:1 Redmax oil in 4 engines and Saber 100:1 in the other 4 engines. From their chart, the 100:1 spun a max of 8300 rpm and the 50:1 topped at 8150 rpm.

That's my entire point of this thread, how can 1 mix work with any ratio of engine, without adjusting the carb needles? One of my customers that uses a 1 mix has a Shindaiwa 488 and it doesn't have a H screw. Couldn't this cause the engine to rap higher than it should? I realize some of us want that, but I'm talking about homeowner consumer products.

This is the response from Amsoil,

"There are two ratios related to two stroke engines:
(1) Oil to fuel ratio: This is the lubricity function the two cycle oil is related to.
(2) Air to fuel ration: This is what the carburetor is designed to handle.

The air to fuel ratio works independently of the oil to fuel ratio. If the oil to fuel ratios are 50:1 to 100:1, there is no need to make any adjustments to the carburetor. Once an oil is mixed with the gasoline, it becomes volatile, and is technically part of the fuel. Engines with no carburetor settings are not affected by different fuel ratios, unless someone is mixing them way too rich.

Saber is concentrated two cycle oil, not cut down with solvents, like other two cycle oils. That is why it is safe to use at 100:1.

Most other two cycle oils have solvents and lighter fraction oils mixed in to allow miscibility with gasoline. They need to be mixed richer to have enough lubricity to protect engine parts."

So, if anyone has tried this, how did it affect the RPM and did you adjust it? I don't mean for this to be a brand bashing oil thread, or a pissing match over which ratio is best.

 

[thefarmboy21]

I'm actually an Amsoil dealer (tho I don't try hard and I don't really sell it, just sign friends up for preferred customer accounts) and I personally run Amsoil at 50:1 instead of 100:1. The only reason really is because that's what the majority on here run it at. That being said, Amsoil really does stand behind their products. If you don't believe their testings, then gonwatch some third party stuff. One of my friends bought some Saber and is running his at 100:1 and so is his father in law.....they swear the trimmers are running better and smoother than they were with the Stihl Ultra. I can also tell you that it is pretty thick oil. Even at 50:1 my stuff doesn't seem to be smoking at all.

 

[dsell]

I'm actually an Amsoil dealer (tho I don't try hard and I don't really sell it, just sign friends up for preferred customer accounts) and I personally run Amsoil at 50:1 instead of 100:1. The only reason really is because that's what the majority on here run it at. That being said, Amsoil really does stand behind their products. If you don't believe their testings, then gonwatch some third party stuff. One of my friends bought some Saber and is running his at 100:1 and so is his father in law.....they swear the trimmers are running better and smoother than they were with the Stihl Ultra. I can also tell you that it is pretty thick oil. Even at 50:1 my stuff doesn't seem to be smoking at all.

When you switched to Saber, did you adjust the carb? Did you ever run 100:1? If so, did you have to adjust the carbs from 100:1 to 50:1? That's what I'm trying to get out of this thread. I'm not saying anyone has a good or bad product. If it's true, it may be a good option for my customer with the Shindaiwa 488 that doesn't have the H needle.

 

[dsell]

I attached the tests.

 

[Little Al]

To obtain optimum performance from a 2 smoke the carb should be adjusted if there is a change in altitude of more than a couple of hundred feet & each time a different batch of fuel mix is used, one of our fallers tunes his saw every fill of fuel & He is spot on with his settings there have been numerous posts on the pis**g contests of who can use the least amount of oil in the mix & the only comment I will make is we run 32/1 ratio & have never suffered a saw failure in regard to lack of oil in the mix over 35 years of commercial logging The only other comment I will pass is if you read any of the books written by top notch tuners they all state that up to a point around 18/1 the more oil in the mix the harder/faster the saw/2smoke motor will run,& the longer the saw is kept at WOT the more south the mix needs to be for optimum performance .Ducks down & dons flak jacket

 

[dsell]

To obtain optimum performance from a 2 smoke the carb should be adjusted if there is a change in altitude of more than a couple of hundred feet & each time a different batch of fuel mix is used, one of our fallers tunes his saw every fill of fuel & He is spot on with his settings there have been numerous posts on the pis**g contests of who can use the least amount of oil in the mix & the only comment I will make is we run 32/1 ratio & have never suffered a saw failure in regard to lack of oil in the mix over 35 years of commercial logging The only other comment I will pass is if you read any of the books written by top notch tuners they all state that up to a point around 18/1 the more oil in the mix the harder/faster the saw/2smoke motor will run,& the longer the saw is kept at WOT the more south the mix needs to be for optimum performance .Ducks down & dons flak jacket

That's my concern. I run 32:1 and I have for many years and that's mainly because everything I have is set that way. The altitude change is a different factor, but I'm always concerned / cautious of my tune when I run any of my saws. I will admit, I sold a saw I rebuilt and tuned to 32:1. The buyer insisted on 50:1, so I said bring your fuel and I'll adjust it. I was puzzled, but there was no difference in the tune. I cut many cookies to make certain the 50:1 was in the system. This is the statement I struggle with, "Once an oil is mixed with the gasoline, it becomes volatile, and is technically part of the fuel." Ok, but it has to change the properties of the fuel. Is that change so minor that there's little noticeable effect on power and RPM?

 

[thefarmboy21]

When you switched to Saber, did you adjust the carb? Did you ever run 100:1? If so, did you have to adjust the carbs from 100:1 to 50:1? That's what I'm trying to get out of this thread. I'm not saying anyone has a good or bad product. If it's true, it may be a good option for my customer with the Shindaiwa 488 that doesn't have the H needle.

I haven't personally ran it at 100:1 and likely will not.

As far as I know my Buddy and his father in law just straight up switched and that was it. They say they run better, but maybe it's in their heads?

However I will say that my STIHL FS85 has no adjustment for the H setting. It's tuned exactly how I imagine it should be though, so I MAY mix up some 100:1 and see if it acts different in any fashion. As for customers, I recommend just keeping some 50:1 synthetic on hand. Either mix some, buy the STIHL stuff in the cans, or all the local walmarts currently have their ethanol free gallon/quart cans on sale. Go get you a gallon of 50:1 ready pour stuff for 1/2 price. Think the ones around here have VP racing stuff.

 

[holeycow]

The bottom line is that the crankcase always needs a small amount of residual oil left in it.

50:1 vs 100:1 makes very little difference in air/fuel ratio but, depending on the characteristics of the oil (flashpoint, etc) and the way the machine is operated it can make a big difference in the necessary build-up of this residual oil and in the accumulation of carbon deposits and spooge.

How the engine is run makes a big difference in how much residual oil accumulates and how cleanly the remainder burns.

And I vote for 30-40:1. Ha!

If a couple of hundred rpm is gonna make a difference on whether the machine burns up or not then you are running way too close to the edge, Imo.

 

[dsell]

Is Tanaka perfect mix synthetic?

 

[Little Al]

Is Tanaka perfect mix synthetic?

It seems to be the best kept "secret" & on 2 different sites it is rated as FC on 1 & FD on "tother" I don't use a saw manufactures oil as it is blended by an oil company whose oil brand is probably equal if not superior to the saw brand stuff FC/FD rated is a good bench mark for an oil that will be good but if you know an oil that doesn't have the rating it may be just as good/better but is blended by a small company that cannot run to the North of 75,000$ for a test & rating we use oil supplied to us from a small company that supplied oil to the Moto GP teams in the days of the 2 smoke motors They have analyzed a good few of the top/popular 2 smoke oils & have come up with a blend best suited to our needs some oils contain ingredients not needed in saws ie; Motul 710,& 800.is the same except for 1 additive the 800 contains an additive to keep the power valve free on bike motors so with a saw not required & 710 is a lower price It is a subject that raises hackles so i would say if you are happy with the brand/mix ratio carry onusing it after all you are the person that is required to put hand in pocket when spares/repairs are needed but if you are some one in search of near or the best in lubrication there is lots of info out there, keep you busy for ages & possibly like me still learning after some 40 years of looking/checking.

 

[ericm979]

Oil doesn't become fuel when mixed with gas. But the change between 50:1 (2% oil) and 32:1 (3%) is small... it's 1% more or less gas per unit of air. I can tune a two stroke pretty well but that's a very small difference, one that I would not be able to notice that often. And chainsaws are generally tuned richer than say racing motorcycles... if those four stroke under power they're super rich. Going 1% leaner would often not be a problem. (not sure how my 362CM would react though, it's already pretty lean)

Motul makes great oil but when I ran it in two stroke motorcycles it made the exhaust stink so much that other competitors complained. I use Redline Allsport synthetic in my trials motorcycles and in saws. It works well and it makes the exhaust smell good too. Redline recommends Allsport for air cooled engines.

 

[HarleyT]

 

[Deleted member 149229]

View attachment 597248

You ain't right! lol

 

[HarleyT]

You ain't right! lol

Most have no idea, I think....

 

[Ted Jenkins]

Oil doesn't become fuel when mixed with gas. But the change between 50:1 (2% oil) and 32:1 (3%) is small... it's 1% more or less gas per unit of air. I can tune a two stroke pretty well but that's a very small difference, one that I would not be able to notice that often. And chainsaws are generally tuned richer than say racing motorcycles... if those four stroke under power they're super rich. Going 1% leaner would often not be a problem. (not sure how my 362CM would react though, it's already pretty lean)

Motul makes great oil but when I ran it in two stroke motorcycles it made the exhaust stink so much that other competitors complained. I use Redline Allsport synthetic in my trials motorcycles and in saws. It works well and it makes the exhaust smell good too. Redline recommends Allsport for air cooled engines.

Pardon me 32:1 to 50:1 is not a little small but very huge for SOME applications. In the 2 stroke racing world 1000:1 makes a difference. With chain saws that are not on the very edge of hand grenading they can tolerate quite a bit of variation. However i notice small amounts of ratio changes in my older saws. More Oil means leaner running conditions thus more heat. Less Oil mean richer fuel mixtures and often a cooler running engine. The perfect balance is what all should be trying to attain. In the racing world a 20 degree day compared to higher or lower temperatures is a big deal. The cooler the air the more condense it is depending on the humidity. So on cooler days often saws run noticeably hotter because of the extra oxygen. Thanks

 

[HarleyT]

Pardon me 32:1 to 50:1 is not a little small but very huge for SOME applications. In the 2 stroke racing world 1000:1 makes a difference. With chain saws that are not on the very edge of hand grenading they can tolerate quite a bit of variation. However i notice small amounts of ratio changes in my older saws. More Oil means leaner running conditions thus more heat. Less Oil mean richer fuel mixtures and often a cooler running engine. The perfect balance is what all should be trying to attain. In the racing world a 20 degree day compared to higher or lower temperatures is a big deal. The cooler the air the more condense it is depending on the humidity. So on cooler days often saws run noticeably hotter because of the extra oxygen. Thanks

I was just kidding on the 32:1 meme.
I was just wondering if anyone knew what was up with the pic.

Only one old phart seemed to get it....

 

[HarleyT]

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/fuel-oil-ratio.2870/

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/50-1-or-32-1-mixture.6104/

2 good threads.......

 

[1Alpha1]

Back in the days, my two-stroke MX bikes required a 20:1 mixture. And, there was no such thing as synthetic oil back then. I used Castrol exclusively.

I can't recall ever having to retune for races depending upon temp. or elevation, oil or gas brand changes. Once you got it dialed in, you left it alone.

 

[dsell]

I was just kidding on the 32:1 meme.
I was just wondering if anyone knew what was up with the pic.

Only one old phart seemed to get it....

I'm still trying to figure out the picture. Who is it?

 

[HarleyT]

I'm still trying to figure out the picture. Who is it?

Lol...
Google "Drink the Koolaid"....