ArborWare "tech" pants

[Trtd61]

Re: chain saw cut resitant pants

The fear factor many people talk about "better to be safe then horrribly cut" I think applies to inexperianced, incompetant, injury prone workers.




Hmmm famous last words...

 

[xander9727]

Frans,
Your post shows your ingorance. I guess by your logic, I shouldn't wear a seat belt if I'm a good driver. Ask anyone and they'll tell you their an above average driver.......same applies for people in our profession and homeowners for that matter. Most people feel they are above average in their abilities. Protective gear isn't designed to be tested on a routine basis. If you find yourself having to rely on your PPE on a regular basis you're probably in the wrong job. Anyone can have a mishap. Is a little temporary discomfort worth a lifetime of disability? I won't preach that I always wear all of the necessary PPE or that I always do everything the right way. I do however strive to improve every day. I wear chaps on removals in the tree and on the ground when limbing and bucking. At times they can be a pain but 95% of the time I don't even notice them. I have been saved by chaps on one occasion. I was cutting brush on a steep slope, slipped and put the saw into my knee. I did it hard enough to make a deep bruise but it didn't break the skin. If you don't want to wear PPE you can easily justify it to yourself. However, if you injure yourself you'll find it harder to justify.

My $.02

 

[Frans]

O.K. let me clarify.
What I am talking about is the mindless following of each and every new safety requirment that comes down the pike.
I too wear chaps, I wear them when I am working on landings. (in case you dont know what that is, it is when you have logs piled up ready to load and you need to cut the knots/limbs etc off of them)
I use them clearing brush/poison oak etc.
I use them when cutting alot of firewood. It seems to me that many injuries happen in this situation.
What I do not do is wear them while climbing and for just everyday wear.
Ignorance? poor choice of words but then again you dont know me, or my experiance or the monthly climbing skills, workshops, tail gate safety meetings,demo days, all of which I not only help to organize, participate in, and include in the quarterly newsletter (ca arborists association) of which I am the editor of.
I question the "statistics" is what I do. I believe the data taken and used to compile these "statistics" are not representitive of the industry as a whole.
For example, on the news the other day was a "survey" of all voters. The newspaper had the headline "Voters leaning toward pulling out of Irag"!
In small print was the disclaimer that said the amount of people polled was 750 people in a verbal poll taken at a single location.with a factor of 3% error.
In other words meaningless.

I question also the statistics touted by our industry I think they are working with data that is outdated.

For example when I go to a trade show (isa, TCIA) I notice that the folks there represent an incredibly small segment of our industry. The advanced climbing techniques, the new gear, etc are used by only a certain very small segment of the folks working trees everyday.
There is a vast population of people working and using techniques that are far behind what you see at a show.
In my neck of the woods every major trades company for example, the lumber companies, the major landscape companies, etc, etc, have all incorporated a vast hispanic community as there workers. This is a fairly recent development. The gathering of data reflecting injuries, what type of injuries, days lost to work, etc. is a very time consuming task.
knowing the insurance companies proclivity to present statistical data to reinforce their outlandish fee charging practices I just dont see how the data is up to date.
What influences the data used by insurence companies is things like the death that happened in a town near me called Napa, CA.
We talked about this on AS. The man was crushed to death by a branch his ground man did not let run. You can research this on a past thread if you want
This crew had no backup plan (the groundman could not speak english so could not tell the homeowner what happened or even to call 911, tried to free climb up the tree carrying a saw, but could not start the saw to cut his friend free)
But the real question is: are you a safe person? Anything can happen, Darwins theory of evolution is a reality not an idea.
Do you work safe? Do you ignore common sense safe working practices? Can you work for years safely?
What I dont agree is the sensless running around telling people they are unsafe. What do you know? Do you do trees everday? Is your whole life, your family, all your friends, connected with folks working and making a living working with trees all their lives?
Mine is.
To be unsafe means you are an unsafe person to be working and I dont want you on my payroll or my jobsite as a contractor.
Accidents happen, you can be the safest person in the world and something can happen, God forbid it should happen to anyone else including me. I have no objection to one of my climbers using chaps while climbing but for me personally I dont do it, I am safer without them.

I gotta stop ranting on AS

Sinceraly
Frans

 

[xander9727]

Frans,
If you need some tips on climbing safely with chaps I'm happy to educate you. Just pm or email me.
Ignorance is a lack of education. If you can't see how PPE can be benificial then you need to be educated.
Have you never heard of a climber being injured on his lower extremities with a chainsaw?
If you're as qualified as you say you are I expect more. Then again maybe your time has come and it's time for one of the newer thinking members of our community to take the reigns. Nothing stays the same, you're either getting better or getting worse. You have the ability to influence a large group of people. Knowing this you have a fiduciary responsibility to ensure you're as up to date as possible. People will believe what you say and like it or not you'll share some responsiblilty for their actions.

 

[Froggy]

ArborWare, I love them in a tree, but the price is high. Some like Carhart. It seems as though they get a little tight in those streatched out situations. I guess you have to go with what you can afford. I think ArborWare would get more business if they would cut a few dollars off their price. Those "tech" pant are cool. I think they run about $69.95plus tax around here. I guess that would be a good B-day present.

 

[jkrueger]

A fellow climber that I know, a tech climber, very experienced and a great rigger. Reported to me that he got a 10 cut in his leg that required stiches. He said it was the result of the bagy chain saw pants he was wearing in the tree that caught the chain and pulled it in.

Think we need to rethink the solutions given us by industry. I'm all for safty and we take what we are told as some form of 'truth'.

We need to speak up to the producers of these products and not make each other wrong.

Jack

 

[xander9727]

Would baggy arbortech pants have produced the same injury. There are always examples of how not wearing a helmet or a seatbelt saved a life. A lot of this is opinionated, I feel that in the majority of situations your better off with protection. I know that we need to balance productivity with safety but I do not feel that chainsaw chaps hinder productivity to a measurable level. It wasn't that long ago that chain breaks were thought to be a hinderance. (I think some people may still believe this.......)

New technologies often require us to learn new skills. But then again I know all about old dogs.......

Sorry MB that wasn't meant towards you, I don't want your senior citizens group to start protesting me.

MB does your add say peer discounts?

 

[MasterBlaster]

I do not advertise my services.

 

[Frans]

xander9727 (or whatever your name is)
Can you tell me why OSHA backed off on the requirement that all arborists wear saw protective pants in the tree?
And could you tell me please why the ISA was instrumental in this decision?
I think you do not know what you are talking about but I would suggest you do due diligence before saying folks are unsafe.

Should you feel pain and uncertainty when you see what you percive as being unsafe working practices in others I would kindly suggest you seek benificial therapy immediately
Frans

 

[a_lopa]

as ive said before i dont walk out the door with out cut proof pants,frans saying that there hard to climb in is ridiculous,and or its to hot to wear them,nick even if you use a saw for a ''few minutes'' really makes me wonder just how saftey consious you are,if your already wearing them its not an issue to pick up a saw anytime chaps are just a waste of time collecting oil and dust in the tool locker.i dont know a climber or good groundie that doesnt wear them full time,its staggering the attitude towards something that can save your life,but i guess youll need to feel or see some pain to change your attitude(s)

 

[xander9727]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that chaps offer protection from a contact injury from a chainsaw. I climb almost every day in chaps. I know for a fact it can be done efficiently and safely. I guess I'm a free thinker. I don't need to wait until I'm required to do something before I see the merits. I won't argue this point but it will be interesting to see the general concensus on this in 10 years.

 

[Nickrosis]

Originally posted by stephenbullman
couple of minutes a day?
sheeesh you should try working for a living

har har

 

[SteveBullman]

Originally posted by xander9727
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that chaps offer protection from a contact injury from a chainsaw. I climb almost every day in chaps. I know for a fact it can be done efficiently and safely. I guess I'm a free thinker. I don't need to wait until I'm required to do something before I see the merits. I won't argue this point but it will be interesting to see the general concensus on this in 10 years.

 

[SteveBullman]

oooooops

xander, just curious, if you climb everyday in chaps why not just buy a pair of trousers? they dont look half as gay and theres some real niceoneson the market now. I'm in stretch airs, lovely flexible trousers and breathable too
oh and chicks love em

 

[Frans]

I am a superstious person.
All this talk about wearing saw pant/chaps has got me thinking and nervous.
Soooo after many years I am going to "get on board" with this crap (oops, I mean sensible, logical safety procedures/ practices)

What are "stretch airs"?
And what is the best top of the line chap/pant?
I am going to move this topic to another thread of it's own I think it should stand by itself.
Frans

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I know a thing or two about the AW Tech pants. The first two pairs that I got were from the prototype batches. If I remember right, Sean Gere and I got a pair each to field test, Paul got one and one never got worn. Similar setup for the second batch of prototypes. The originals are a bit rough after being worn for this long so I bought two new pairs at the ISA show.

The material is a Cordura fabric. If you don't know what Cordura is, Google will fill you in. Short answer, a REALLY tough fiber!

For me, the ultimate test of the Tech Pants came a couple of summers ago when I was doing a scientific research project with a researcher from the US Forest Service. Jenny Juzwick has been researching oak wilt for a long time. That summer I was hired to innoculate some red oaks with oak wilt in order to have a controlled study of the effects of a "claimed" cure. The first day of climbing was hot and humid by Minneapolis standards. Ninety plus degrees and ninety plus humidity with no air movement. While I was driving home, with the AC cranked up, I realized that I was feeling rather crummy. Even though I had eaten well and drank lots of fluids.

The next day I did the same climbing and the weather conditions were the same. Ate the same breakfast and lunch with lots of water. By now you're wondering what any of this has to do with AW Tech Pants. On the first day I had TPs, the second, plain old, broken in blue jeans. When I was driving home the second day I felt rotten. Not crummy, really crappy. As I analyzed the day to try to figure out what was different the only variable was my pants. The TPs were in the was because of the walk through poison ivy. My conclusion is that the TP fabric allowed my body to cool just a bit better during the day. Since cotton isn't as effective as synthetics in moving water it didn't radiate my bodies heat like the Tech Pants.

I get such a boot out of the talk about cost of pants and such. No one ever has said that doing performance mods on chainsaws wasn't a great value. When anyone starts to wonder if any of the second-string chainsaws are worth considering, even for an occaisonal user, they get shot down. For a long time I've considered my clothing as valuable to my health and production as any of, what are normally thought of as tools.

Besides, I was wearing my new, black AW Tech Pants and my sweetie said that I looked sharp in them. She's never commented on how I look in work jeans. I can't put a value on that comment

Tom

 

[Nickrosis]

Way to go. You could have just skipped to the last line!

 

[OutOnaLimb]

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
I had a pair of the arborwear pants. OK, but not worth the $40-$50 I paid. I get Dickies/ Carharts for $20 and they wear longer than the Arborwear pants. And the Dickies workpants have the small loop on the left leg (designed for hanging a hammer or paintbrush?) that works great for clipping an extra 'biner or two.

You know what kinda of pants I wear Rocky. Good ole Dickies. 16 bucks at Wally World. And they wear good for about 6 months. After that you just get a few more pairs.

Kenn

 

[xander9727]

Just got back from the FISTA training for Ohio. Sherrill was there and did a good gear demo. The FISTA guys were real informative on the OSHA and ANSI standards. They covered how they apply to tree care and what are the most often overlooked violations. The instructors were wearing summer weight chainsaw resistant pants. This is the first time I've ever seen a pair of the summer weight. They look like they would work well and are comfortable. I'm going to try a couple of pairs out. I'll still wear shorts underneath so I can get them off at the end of the day.

 

[ms200]

tech pants

Are these Tech pants shiny nylon?