banning use of owb in ohio

[Tazman1602]

What needs to happen, is the EPA needs to work with manufacturers to improve the combustion process inside the OWB’s to produce cleaner exhaust.

Dude, no disrespect intended, but do you wonder why a pickup now costs around $35K? I can tell you in three letters..............EPA

Granted we have to be good stewards of this planet, but we also have to survive. Being allowed to do that as we see fit is a God given right.

The first new truck I ever bought I was 18 years old. It was a 1975 Ford F-150 4WD with all the goodies. $4500 out the door. You absolutely, positively NEED a 4WD where I live to get around in winter.

..........then came catalytic converters - which by the way caused way more pollution than they stopped because the dang things caused forest fires from burning too hot. No too many people even remember that one. Then came fuel injection. Great for gas mileage but impossible for Joe average to work on without the $5000 meter for interfacing into the computer system. .......and on and on and on until cars are so damn expensive Joe Average CAN'T afford them. OWB's will be the same way in ten years once the EPA gets involved.


Wife just bought a new 2007 Sierra 4WD and it was more than we paid for our first house................and we still chiseled around $10K off the price from the stealer (dealer).

The only thing the EPA has ever accomplished is to make most of our lives expensive and complicated.

JMHO

 

[irishcountry]

I agree with being respectful of your neighbors thats why I mentioned using "common sense" I don't know too many people that would see their smoke sticking in their neighbors yard and not do something to rectify it but no doubt there are a few that said there has to be a point where people are allowed to "makeit" we are getting stuck with bigger and bigger bills fewer jobs and expected to just accept the layers of rules and regs. just because most of the people making the laws make a very decent chunk of money (in most cases just a general assumption not saying every postion) and are very out of touch with everyday Americans not everyone makes 150,000 a year by themselves no matter what career path they have taken. Heat is a big factor for us we have had some whopper bills I am working to seal up and remodel to insulate better and have been replacing windows ect. but the heat must be generated somehow and if its the difference between keeping our home or trying to sell in a horrible market just to move into a smaller home with no sentimental value well I will also be burning wood. Either way if there are rules they should apply to all situations even big business that is only fair but that more times than not is not the case!! Good luck to OWB owners in Ohio

 

[Tesen]

I agree with the slippery slope comment and many other observations so far, but I still cant see the point in regulating stoves that are hundreds of feet from anybody. I have a real problem with the Ohio EPA telling me I can't have the stove smoking up my own house. Notice that the regs don't say that the stove has to be 200' from your neighbor, they say from A PROPERTY LINE.

Dude I agree with you; unfortunately the EPA issue comes down again to a few bad owners ruining it for the rest. If you are not smoking up your neighbors then you are not the problem, the twits are the ones that are going to ruin it for everyone else. In my original post you will notice the comment, "If your OWB is smoking out the neighbor’s house, then your OWB has become a public nuisance." IMHO, local zoning regulations should be enough to enforce this, but unfortunately the public got scared and ran to the EPA. In your situation, it would be tough to be a public nuisance when your neighbors are so far away, so you get screwed.

Sorry man, I am just throwing out ideas as possible solutions; other than getting the damn epa proposal canned (doubt it will happen, I think the best we can hope for is reasonable usage/emissions laws).

Some how I do not see the public that pushed for this accepting any grandfather clauses, you know the types: It is either entirely their way, or they will sue people into submission.


Tes

 

[oneoldbanjo]

Tazman1602: I agree that part of the cost increase in a new pickup is the fuel injection and catytic converter the EPA required "improvements" - but don't forget that the average person does not buy a entry level pickup anymore. We bought a 1995 Ford 1/2 ton, auto, V-8 two wheel drive for just under $ 10,000 - and it did have fuel injection and a catalytic converter. It did not have leather, it did not have AC, it did not have electric windows, it did not have carpet, it did not have a CD player, it did hot have a garage door transmitter, electric mirrors, it was not a diesel, it did not have an Allison Transmission, it did not have self dimming mirrors - all of which make the "deluxe" truck cost $ 35,000 and are not EPA required.

django: I believe the reason they state 200 feet from any property line is that your current neighbors (or the next owner) may want to build a house on their property someday in what is now a field. By stating the requirement is 200 feet from any property line the neighbor is given protection for their property - not just for any current buildings they may have.

I am sure we will never agree on what is and isn't reasonable for OWB requirements. I do believe that property owners do have rights and you should be able to burn wood if you want to - but you should not be allowed to blow unlimited amounts of smoke at my property. I am fortunate to own more than 4 acres and I have an OWB and it is more than 200 feet from my property boundaries - and I really think that there are some places that people live too close together and an outdoor boiler would really compromise the neighborhood. It would be nice if the OWB industry could regulate themselves and make products that smoke and pollute as little as possible, however it appears that the current technology on these OWB's is primitive at best - they are only able to turn a fan on when they are cold and turn it off when they are hot.

 

[Tesen]

Dude, no disrespect intended, but do you wonder why a pickup now costs around $35K? I can tell you in three letters..............EPA

Granted we have to be good stewards of this planet, but we also have to survive. Being allowed to do that as we see fit is a God given right.

The first new truck I ever bought I was 18 years old. It was a 1975 Ford F-150 4WD with all the goodies. $4500 out the door. You absolutely, positively NEED a 4WD where I live to get around in winter.

Not to argue, it is not just the EPA. That 1975 truck would cost: $18725.26 with inflation. Factor in increased wages, materials cost and extra R&D due to the EPA and yeah, they are expensive now.

them. OWB's will be the same way in ten years once the EPA gets involved.

You do have a point, my point was if they are going to force OWB's to be EPA compliant then ram it down the current onwers throats, then they need to help the owner purchase a replacement OWB to meet standards. I do not think it is fair to force an OWB change on people just trying to stay warm, but if they are going to do it, very least they can pay for the damn switch.

The only thing the EPA has ever accomplished is to make most of our lives expensive and complicated.
JMHO

As you said, being good stewards to the Earth is a good thing; I am all for being green even at a little extra expense to myself, but again I do not think if you are forced to switch your OWB you should have to pay for it.

Tes

 

[Tesen]

I agree with being respectful of your neighbors thats why I mentioned using "common sense" I don't know too many people that would see their smoke sticking in their neighbors yard and not do something to rectify it but no doubt there are a few that said there has to be a point where people are allowed to "makeit" we are getting stuck with bigger and bigger bills fewer jobs and expected to just accept the layers of rules and regs. just because most of the people making the laws make a very decent chunk of money (in most cases just a general assumption not saying every postion) and are very out of touch with everyday Americans not everyone makes 150,000 a year by themselves no matter what career path they have taken. Heat is a big factor for us we have had some whopper bills I am working to seal up and remodel to insulate better and have been replacing windows ect. but the heat must be generated somehow and if its the difference between keeping our home or trying to sell in a horrible market just to move into a smaller home with no sentimental value well I will also be burning wood. Either way if there are rules they should apply to all situations even big business that is only fair but that more times than not is not the case!! Good luck to OWB owners in Ohio

I understand what you are saying man, I totally do - this is why I installed a wood furnace in my house and it has very nicely helped reduce heating costs. And yea I think the EPA rules are going to suck for OWB's, they are going to be some strict rules that have no business being in existance. Unfortunately the point I was originally making, is some of the disrepectful SoB's out there are going to ruin it for the OWB operators.

One of the points I was trying to make, if there is no way to stop it and they are going to force it, the EPA and state better make up for it with the OWB owners. Either grandfather the existing installations or cough up the money for people to replace their existing units.

I know quite a few ppl that burn with OWB's that will be up the well known creek without a paddle if the law is to drastic. My push on people is to attack this on two fronts, I seldom suggest attacking the even possibility of such laws existence since the cry hards out there will never let it go, so I usually sound off on controlling the damage. 1) Grandfather the existing units! 2) State/EPA cough the money up to replace them then with your approved versions!

But as others have said here, if they go after OWB's it won't be log for standard wood stoves and furnaces. And yeah, I agree with a lot of the comments here, it is not just the joe public #####ing, it is the utilities as well.

Tes

 

[irishcountry]

I too hope that the EPA is going to make some reasonable suggestions I have a real problem with everything GREEN being pushed on one side but the same people pushing to eradicate things like OWB and wood burning stoves and fireplaces it seems like a oxymoron. I think attacking the problem from both sides is the only way to be fair maybe they will give incentives to switch if a better unit comes out and that would be OK but people have spent lots of money for some independence from the foreign oil that you keep hearing about in the media and in my book they are saving money and keeping those dollars in their local areas either buying wood or at least taking their saws in occasionally for a tune up at the local dealer. To me the towns all across our country need that kind of small town "economic stimulas package" we need to get back to that and at the same time be aware and responsible for our own actions. Maybe those same people will not be out to just ban all units right away with no exceptions I suppose we will see the trend soon enough, I will be watching from a distance for now.

 

[Tazman1602]

Not to argue, it is not just the EPA. That 1975 truck would cost: $18725.26 with inflation. Factor in increased wages, materials cost and extra R&D due to the EPA and yeah, they are expensive now.
Tes

DOH! +1

.........You kicked my butt on that one, kudo's!

Man I just hate any type of government regulation when it comes to my personal life. I figure I ought to be able to do what I want when I want on my property --- now granted I left out the part about having my own 20 acres in the country. I guess if I lived in a neighborhood with a neighbor right next door I'd feel differently.............

.........but you know what I *would* do? I'd make dang square sure my chimney was above the roofline or somewhere that it would NOT smoke up the whole neighborhood.

NAH. I just wouldn't live there. I'd find an acre somewhere out in the sticks and live in a tarpaper shack before I'd live in the city -- no offense meant to you city folk here.........

Art

 

[Tesen]

DOH! +1

.........You kicked my butt on that one, kudo's!

Man I just hate any type of government regulation when it comes to my personal life. I figure I ought to be able to do what I want when I want on my property --- now granted I left out the part about having my own 20 acres in the country. I guess if I lived in a neighborhood with a neighbor right next door I'd feel differently.............

Down side to living next door to other people, you have to play nice if you want a nice quiet life

.........but you know what I *would* do? I'd make dang square sure my chimney was above the roofline or somewhere that it would NOT smoke up the whole neighborhood.

NAH. I just wouldn't live there. I'd find an acre somewhere out in the sticks and live in a tarpaper shack before I'd live in the city -- no offense meant to you city folk here.........

Art

I hear you dude, my wife wanted to live in the city, I wanted land (highspeed internet out in the sticks here was not an option at the time and she just needed her DSL or cable for gaming ). She now sees what I mean about living with land around you, it is nice and you can pretty much mind your own business with a decent property size.

Our current issue, is whether to buy weekend vacation land down south where it is cheaper, to escape or to purchase higher priced land up N, to shorten my 110 miles a day round trip to work.


Tes

 

[cmetalbend]

chimney mods?

Here's an interesting thought. Let's say your chimney is 20 above your roof line, but you live on the side of a hill where your neighbor lives at the top? The smoke will obviously travel up?

 

[berry5]

they outlaw my owb they will have to come and arrest me, when i get out it will be fired up, they are not telling me what i can or cant do, they cannot arrest all of us. i will pile up 20 times the amount of wood i burn in a year and burn it in the open in protest

 

[hanko]

they outlaw my owb they will have to come and arrest me, when i get out it will be fired up, they are not telling me what i can or cant do, they cannot arrest all of us. i will pile up 20 times the amount of wood i burn in a year and burn it in the open in protest

guys like you are the problem, you screw it up for everybody

 

[irishcountry]

Allright now thats the spirit that gets thing accomplished!! I agree, I am not some anti-government or conspiracy guy (I do think we are played all the time though!!) but in my opinion we are citizens of this country and if we pay our taxes well we should be able to do pretty much what WE (as in "the people") want short of putting a nuclear reactor on our property!! I understand wanting cleaner air/land ect. but why start with the guys way way way down the list we are talking about wood here fires occur in nature how are you going to regulate that CO2 production? I would like to see a study on the CO2 and particulate matter produced in a large wildfire then compare that figure with the number of OWB across the US running all winter and just see which pollutes more. Maybe it would be surprising but that is just a comparison with mother nature not big industries that burn tons of fuel making products or refining/cracking fuel ect.!! Like I stated before it seems fishy and we get more free taken and are left with just the dumb!! God bless americans and right now Ohio OWB's

 

[hydro2]

they outlaw my owb they will have to come and arrest me, when i get out it will be fired up, they are not telling me what i can or cant do, they cannot arrest all of us. i will pile up 20 times the amount of wood i burn in a year and burn it in the open in protest

Far too often we just lie down and comply. I agree with you! Same goes with taxes. If most stop paying, what could be done?

 

[Tazman1602]

they outlaw my owb they will have to come and arrest me, when i get out it will be fired up, they are not telling me what i can or cant do, they cannot arrest all of us. i will pile up 20 times the amount of wood i burn in a year and burn it in the open in protest

I agree with you to a certain extent. I too am very, very tired of being told what I can do, when I can do it, and how I will be allowed to do it. The whole thing is stupid.

I did a study while in college for Engineering. At that time there were almost 300,000,000 cars in the US and the EPA was cracking down on emission regulations. A tree hugger friend said we should go back to riding horses. OK, I"m up for a healthy debate.............

...........problem was when you factored in the methane gas and other pollutants that is emitted from horse poopy it is enough (even in those days.....there are now 500,000,000 cars now..) it is enough that the ozone layer would be gone and we would all be dead.

Long live the internal combustion engine......................

 

[windthrown]

Well, protesting aside (I agree with the let 'em arrest me for burning wood in my OWB ), there are two OWB models at least that have or will have EPA approval. They are spendy; about ten grand for either one. But they are also way more efficient that traditional OWBs, (along the lines of wood gassifiers, which they both are), so you would burn probably half the wood in them for the same amount of heat. They also allow for long burn times, unlike traditional wood gassifiers.

One is from Central Boiler: The E-Classic 2300 model outdoor wood furnace has qualified for the U.S. EPA Outdoor Wood-fired Hydronic Heater (OWHH) certification. www.centralboiler.com

Another is from Sequoya: The model E3400 which is now has the orange EPA OWHH Phase 1 Sticker. www.wdheat.com

 

[django]

Hi. Keep in mind when mentioning "compliant" stoves that the Federal EPA emissions or not as strict as what Ohio wants to implement. At "phase 2" Ohio regs are about 1/2 of federal.

 

[woodlumn]

I'd like to see a study that compares the total pollution associated with:

1. the mining, production/refinement, transportation, and creation of infrastructure for delivery of natural gas and the wildlife refuges, national parks, wilderness, and towns that this all destroys

versus...

2. owb fueled by local wood

which one pollutes more, which one is afftecting more people? seems like a no-brainer to me.

people say that gas/kerosene/oil burns cleaner - yes, they burn cleaner...but that's only telling a tiny fraction of the story.

 

[irishcountry]

I couldn't agree with you anymore!! I never thought about a couple of those industries and your right it seems like a ABSOLUTE no brainer and I don't even own a OWB "YET". Tiny fraction is all they want the average everyday American to think about!!

 

[windthrown]

Hi. Keep in mind when mentioning "compliant" stoves that the Federal EPA emissions or not as strict as what Ohio wants to implement. At "phase 2" Ohio regs are about 1/2 of federal.

OH will wind up like CA. They will demand to use only 'clean' energy and pay a lot more for it, while states next door like West VA and Nevada will burn all the 'dirty' wood and oil and coal the others refuse to burn (and wind up with the same amount of smoke blowing around in the air). Of course, in most urban areas of CA, ALL wood burning appliances are banned for new construction. At the same time that they have severe power shortages...

These newer OWB systems are WAY better than existing ones on reducing air pollution, "Oh, but we want it all even more better!" Its going to be interesting when 2010 rolls around. I doubt the the US will be able to afford the luxury of super-clean burning energy technology, along with vastly higher prices for oil, coal, gas and wood. Price for diesel gas here is over $4 a gallon, thanks to the 'clean diesel laws' in effect. I will keep my 'dirty' OWB, and my 'dirty' 361.