Bar Length vs. Performance

[Chainsaw Pete]

Obviously, putting a very long bar on a low powered saw will result in slower chain speed and cutting. I wonder what the effect is if you move up in bar length within Stihl's recommendations for a given saw. Yesterday I was trying to cut the base of a dead trunk away from the remaining live trunk. The 20" bar on my MS250 was just too short, and sawing from the opposite side was awkward and partially blocked by the live tree. My MS311 also has a 20" bar, but Stihl says it can take a 25 incher.

Can my MS311 run a 25" bar?
What kind of performance drop does one see going up a bar size or two? Having a longer bar for the occasional large stump would be useful. I'm ignoring the increase in saw weight - the longer bar would not be used most of the time.

 

[Evan]

What do you gbain by running a longer bar. What is the typical size of the trees you handle.? Where I cut I cut Pine and fur I usually shoot for fur so I don't I'm not cut super hardwood so I run 70cc size with one side has 28 one has a 32.

The 311 isn't a bad saw saw I have Granite with a 25 inch in the same Pine and first type stuff it's not my top choice but it will definitely get it done

For the 311 to be my main saw for what I do I'd be severely handicapped

 

[Chainsaw Pete]

What is the typical size of the trees you handle.?

I mostly mop up downed trees after a storm for friends and neighbors. We took down easily a dozen trees when we bought this house 23 years ago. I've also downed trees at my shooting club. Recently, I've been bucking trees and taking down several at a friend's farm. This summer, I spent two days in the woods at a friend's 65 acre property clearing downed trees. My main saw is the 250, for larger trees I use the 311.

The longer bar will let me trim stumps down a lot lower. I had an 042AV Stihl* w/ a 25" bar that I used on the larger trees in our yard, but that saw has not been running for years. A longer bar will let me trim a trunk near the base (see my first post above). I'd use it occasionally, when I hit a larger tree. My friend's farm has some dead or knocked over trees that will demand a bar longer than 20" and some will not permit sawing from both sides.

*subject of another thread

 

[NSEric]

With skip tooth chain the 25 inch bar will work just fine on the 311.
I find saws run out of oiling ability and get front heavy before they run out of power for slightly longer bars.
Keep an eye on the bar to see if it's getting enough bar oil.

 

[James Sawyer]

60cc saw will run a 25" bar, that a standard bar length on MS362 here in PNW but we don't cut the east coast hardwoods. I run a FC chisel on my MS362, it does ok. If your want pick up the power on MS311 with the 25" bar go to full Skip chain. The Skip actually doesn't run that much slower then you would think, it'll bring up your chain speed over a FC chain. If you can afford it go with Stihl Lightweight bar it'll help on the saw balance. If your on a budget, just looking for a stump bar I go with an Oregon bar over a the Stihl bar. I sure there are cheaper bars but I primary I run Stihl or Oregon bars so have no experience with other MFG bars.

 

[Evan]

In my opinion 20-25 isnt much different. I find it easier limbing with a longer bar.
I used play the small saw paired with a big saw game. Limb and buck small wood with the small big with the big.

Ive since found i work less with the longer bar even limbing. Put the tree down then drag the 32" down it walking the tree or limbing both sides from the one side.

I have a ported 026 with 18" the saw works well but i just cant reach very much. I gota move more to do the same cutting as the longer bar.

Weight really is no issue since the saw is 90% sliding down the tree.

I say 25" on the 311 keep it sharp and cut lots

 

[Hermio]

Obviously, putting a very long bar on a low powered saw will result in slower chain speed and cutting. I wonder what the effect is if you move up in bar length within Stihl's recommendations for a given saw. Yesterday I was trying to cut the base of a dead trunk away from the remaining live trunk. The 20" bar on my MS250 was just too short, and sawing from the opposite side was awkward and partially blocked by the live tree. My MS311 also has a 20" bar, but Stihl says it can take a 25 incher.

Can my MS311 run a 25" bar?
What kind of performance drop does one see going up a bar size or two? Having a longer bar for the occasional large stump would be useful. I'm ignoring the increase in saw weight - the longer bar would not be used most of the time.

With a sharp chain you can probably use a longer bar than even the manufacturer's recommendation as long as you let the saw find its speed and not lean into it. For occasional, use, that should be fine. You could also use skip tooth chain, which reduces the power requirements.

 

[thomasinvancouver]

I tend to run a longer bar on my saws. 25” .325 on a 261. 28-32 3/8 skip on my 572. The benefit to me is that I don’t have to bend over or squat down if it’s on the ground (nose awareness) and I’m a bit further from the log (blowdown) when I make my release cut.

I can also cut larger logs without doing a full double cut. Now that’s done knowing I can’t dog in and reef on it. Using the full bar length buried in wood requires some mechanical sympathy and conservative depth gauge filing to not bog it down. Your oiler will be sufficient for a slightly over length bar.

I think my approach is typical west coast thinking a la BBR. I’m not a faller or tree surgeon. I’m on a trail crew and clearing trail is what I know. Different strokes blah blah blah.

 

[Hermio]

I tend to run a longer bar on my saws. 25” .325 on a 261. 28-32 3/8 skip on my 572. The benefit to me is that I don’t have to bend over or squat down if it’s on the ground (nose awareness) and I’m a bit further from the log (blowdown) when I make my release cut.

I can also cut larger logs without doing a full double cut. Now that’s done knowing I can’t dog in and reef on it. Using the full bar length buried in wood requires some mechanical sympathy and conservative depth gauge filing to not bog it down. Your oiler will be sufficient for a slightly over length bar.

I think my approach is typical west coast thinking a la BBR. I’m not a faller or tree surgeon. I’m on a trail crew and clearing trail is what I know. Different strokes blah blah blah.

I cut firewood on my own tree farm. I use the opposite approach: short bar for speed and maneuverability. I use a 20" on my MS500i normally, and my longest bar is a 25". I don't usually put anything in my woodpile that I cannot through cut with these. And I do not have equipment to move logs bigger than I can cut from both sides. I use a Mahindra 5035 HST with loaded rear tires and a 4-way bucket. It generally weighs just over 10,000# with the setup I use for logging. I have dragged 20" butt end diameter x 60-foot-long green hickory logs uphill out of the woods with it. That weighs about 5000-6000#. But a similar 48" log of similar length would weigh over 30,000 lb, I would have to cut it into about 10' sections to budge it, but I could not drag it, as I would be unable to get it off the ground. (I don't have a logging winch. I use a quick hitch. I pull from the lower arms with a drawbar to get the log to the tractor, then use the upper link with a chain to lift the log. 20" is close to the maximum diameter it has clearance to lift off the ground.) I also would be unable to get logs larger than 24" cut to 20-22" long into my wood pile. (I age wood 2 years before splitting, so I first store them as rounds.)

 

[moxiemaul]

Can confirm a longer bar saps a bit of power- I have an absurd 30" bar on my old Homelite XL Auto- but as above if you go easy on the cut in big stuff it works fine eg rock the saw more and don't lever strongly off the dogs. It is really nice when bucking. The long bar makes the balance a bit awkward, I wouldn't want a long bar saw to be my only saw. I suspect my setup may be a little weak wrt oiling, so I augment the auto-oiler with the saw's manual plunger when in something big OTOH so far the bar and chain seem happy.

+1 on keeping the the chain sharp sharp- and skip tooth will definitely help too.

 

[PennHavenTW]

Longer bars will have less forgiveness if the chain is improperly sharpened. If the depth gauges go down too far it will grab and stall the engine more quickly.
Vise versa is true as well, too shallow on the depth gauges and it will cut like a dull chain.

I tried running a 20" full chisel 3/8th, .050 on my 261, 7 tooth sprocket. It could run it, but it was just too much chain for it. Very tight shapening tolerances .......... and heavier.

I run 20" .325, .063 semi chisel chain on my 261 and love it. We cut everything, from rotten Pine to green Hornbeam.

My Opinion.........................

 

[HumBurner]

Effective oiling capability is far more likely to be your limiting factor in the small differences you are thinking. As well as the chain tensioner.

Some folks run 32" bars on 70cc saws. That's upper 70cc/80-90cc territory, unless exclusively in softwood or only on occasion, IMO.

 

[stix2620]

Obviously, putting a very long bar on a low powered saw will result in slower chain speed and cutting. I wonder what the effect is if you move up in bar length within Stihl's recommendations for a given saw. Yesterday I was trying to cut the base of a dead trunk away from the remaining live trunk. The 20" bar on my MS250 was just too short, and sawing from the opposite side was awkward and partially blocked by the live tree. My MS311 also has a 20" bar, but Stihl says it can take a 25 incher.

Can my MS311 run a 25" bar?
What kind of performance drop does one see going up a bar size or two? Having a longer bar for the occasional large stump would be useful. I'm ignoring the increase in saw weight - the longer bar would not be used most of the time.

Ok so let's say I'm don't want to use the chainsaw i have for cutting. Taking performance or what a chainsaw can handle out of the equation. Can you put a 36 inch chain bar on say a Stihl 028 AV? Meaning will it physically fit on the chainsaw?

 

[Chainsaw Pete]

Ok so let's say I'm don't want to use the chainsaw i have for cutting. Taking performance or what a chainsaw can handle out of the equation. Can you put a 36 inch chain bar on say a Stihl 028 AV? Meaning will it physically fit on the chainsaw?

It is my understanding that to make a bar fit on a given chainsaw, the oil hole and two 'adjustment' pin holes have to be in the right place. Oh, and the tail end of the bar has to be positioned for the drive rim. Once you get those right, there is no real reason why you cannot put a 12' bar on your 028, other than the difficulty of lifting the thing off the ground. In another thread here, someone showed a picture of a bar and posters noted that it seemed to have been filed to fit the saw. So, the answer to your question is yes, you can make it fit, and you might even be able to buy a 36" bar to fit your saw.

Going a bit farther, I think there are specific bar end profiles (this has been hinted here in a post or two) that will fit a group of saws. By 'bar end' I mean the back end of the bar that fits in the power head. This makes perfect sense because the mfrs don't want a specific bar for each power head, it is cheaper to make one bar series (i.e. different lengths) fit say all small saws under 40cc's.

I put a 24" bar on my MS311 and with a full comp chain, it cut very well. I took down a 28" diameter tree (about 4' off the ground) with no problems at all - new bar and chain. This is probably the max size bar for that saw (I've read) for occasional use.

 

[wildwes]

Ok so let's say I'm don't want to use the chainsaw i have for cutting. Taking performance or what a chainsaw can handle out of the equation. Can you put a 36 inch chain bar on say a Stihl 028 AV? Meaning will it physically fit on the chainsaw?

Yes, a 36" bar can physically fit on the saw. A 028 has a 3003 mount, and off-the-shelf bars can be bought up to at least about 42" for that mount. I have a 36" .404 bar at home that will bolt right onto that saw, as it is the same mount as a MS660/066.
Now how well it would run it is an entirely different story...

In the reverse, the 16" .325 bar I have on a 026 would bolt right onto my MS660, and look equally ridiculous, but hey, it would absolutely scream with it.

Personally a 20" is about all I would put on a 028, and even that is really too big for that saw to be happy. I run a 16" or 18" 3/8 on mine, depending on what I'm cutting.

 

[Chainsaw Pete]

A 028 has a 3003 mount, and off-the-shelf bars can be bought up to at least about 42" for that mount.

This is the kind of comment that led me to believe there are different bar end profiles. Where does one learn about the different profiles within different brands of saws, and what different bar sizes are available within any given mount style?

For Stihl, is the 3003 in the part number for every 3003 mount bar? Do other mfrs do the same?

 

[wildwes]

This is the kind of comment that led me to believe there are different bar end profiles. Where does one learn about the different profiles within different brands of saws, and what different bar sizes are available within any given mount style?

For Stihl, is the 3003 in the part number for every 3003 mount bar? Do other mfrs do the same?

As far as end profiles, I don't know how to answer that. Learning about different sizes, you can look on Stihl's website and see what they have to offer, or Oregon's website, they call a 3003 mount a DO25. So for a stihl bar that fits a 3003 mount, the part number would look something like "3003 000 8838" which is the part number for a Stihl 28" 3/8 .050 bar for a chain with 91 drive links.
An Oregon number would look like "160RNDDO25" which is the part number for a 16" 3/8 .050 bar for a chain with 60 drive links. Tsumura, Archer, GB Sugihara, Windsor, etc all have their own numbers, I'm not as familiar with them.

Every manufacturer has their own numbering system and their own product line, it's usually not too hard to look up their offerings online. If you are looking at bars though and see a Stihl bar that has "3003" at the beginning of the part number, or an Oregon bar with "DO25" at the end of the part number, you can go ahead and assume that it will fit an 028, or most any other mid size stihl.