Barber Chair question

[046]

I think I am done. You won’t take time to answer a simple question about a questionable technique you advocate as a safety measure for those who don’t cut much but instead take time to joke. Should we take it all as a joke?

Ron

good ..

let's see I specifically state to use a rated strap. I even posted up the exact model with ratings, etc.
I state to wrap 3x-4x on smaller trunks cinched tight. then make the proper cut for leaners.
then I posted two training video for leaners by BC gov so there is NO question what's the proper cut

I get a load of crap about how dangerous above instructions are.
further at no time have I stated to use chain which can slip and fail.
yet I get accused of recommending use of a chain.

at NO time have I told anyone not to use the proper cut for leaners.
the strap is there purely as an extra safety precaution.

do I really need to add 36in trunks are not small and likely exceed ratings of most common straps
again .. there's no accounting for stupid
know when to walk away .. stay safe!

 

[Bwildered]

Bw, good to see the fires haven't run you over. I was thinking of you when I first posted on strapping here and the irony of our long running discussion of falling completely opposite the lean where I was arguing incremental falling in theory much like 046 asserting the theoretical here. Despite our failure to agree on incremental falling, I believe you understood my belief that in the real world falling completely opposite the lean rarely, if ever, intentionally happens when the actual load is with the perceived lean.

You seem to be safety conscious and knowledgeable of the forestry industry downunder, so let me ask. Do any of your regulators or trade associations approve of strapping to prevent barber chairs on small trees? Is this technique something you do, or recommend to inexperience cutters?

Ron

Here Strapping is something which is outside the bounds of normal felling practice, but for smaller trees that can't be bored I couldn't see a problem with it, 1/2" rope would be my preference wrapped a dozen times , light to carry & if it does fail won't fly through the air & cause any harm, a barber chair is a release of energy in the wrong direction, one would think restraining that release of energy in the wrong direction has to be safer,

 

[ArtB]

Just to stir the pot, and throw in some numbers, related to #71 chain calculations.
Derivation of the following is left to the student <G>

Strength of wrap required = 50#cuft*(tree height/2)*(DBH^2*pi/4)*sine (lean angle)

For the tree in post 71, that works out to about 30,000# breaking strength of strap.
Hence, in #71, 2 wraps of grade 70 3/8 chain = 50,000 # BREAKING strength. note 3/8 grade 70 rating is 6700#, breaking about 4x rating.

Numbers in above assumed a 30 degree lean and NO notch for worst case.

I'm guessing the previous post with a 36" DBH leaner breaking a chain probable used a more wimpy chain, that post did not define the chain that broke.

 

[northmanlogging]

Just to stir the pot, and throw in some numbers, related to #71 chain calculations.
Derivation of the following is left to the student <G>

Strength of wrap required = 50#cuft*(tree height/2)*(DBH^2*pi/4)*sine (lean angle)

For the tree in post 71, that works out to about 30,000# breaking strength of strap.
Hence, in #71, 2 wraps of grade 70 3/8 chain = 50,000 # BREAKING strength. note 3/8 grade 70 rating is 6700#, breaking about 4x rating.

Numbers in above assumed a 30 degree lean and NO notch for worst case.

I'm guessing the previous post with a 36" DBH leaner breaking a chain probable used a more wimpy chain, that post did not define the chain that broke.

5/16"s bargain store chain... unrated, and junk... it was left next to the stump to rust in peace

 

[rwoods]

good ..

let's see I specifically state to use a rated strap. I even posted up the exact model with ratings, etc.
I state to wrap 3x-4x on smaller trunks cinched tight. then make the proper cut for leaners.
then I posted two training video for leaners by BC gov so there is NO question what's the proper cut

I get a load of crap about how dangerous above instructions are.
further at no time have I stated to use chain which can slip and fail.
yet I get accused of recommending use of a chain.

at NO time have I told anyone not to use the proper cut for leaners.
the strap is there purely as an extra safety precaution.

do I really need to add 36in trunks are not small and likely exceed ratings of most common straps
again .. there's no accounting for stupid
know when to walk away .. stay safe!

046,

I am not trying to give you grief for the fun of it. I would not waste your time or mine doing that much less disrespect you in that manner. I post because most folks who don’t cut much don’t know how to make proper cuts. I won’t claim that I know or do. I also don’t know how you secure the strap you described to a small tree. The ones sold here have either a j hook or a clip. Due to the length of the tail and the ratchet mechanism, you have to have multiple wraps so you must spread the strap out (which creates slack if the wraps are moved). Add to the mix that the ratchet mechanism won’t lay flat due to its length and the potential for slack worsens. Add to that how you connect the ends and the potential grows some more. To some extent the same spreading is unavoidable on a large tree even where you can almost completely layer the strap on itself. The only way to avoid the built-in slack is a single wrap, a ratchet mechanism that lies flat against the tree for its entire length and a knotless connection. This is not just theoretical. These are real world facts.

To advocate to a person who doesn’t cut much to strap a small tree to prevent a barber chair is just reckless in my opinion particularly when the technique is not recognized by folks whose job is to help keep us safe. The recklessness is compounded when no meaningful instruction or guidance is provided - a recipe for someone to get hurt or killed.

Ron

 

[rwoods]

Here Strapping is something which is outside the bounds of normal felling practice, but for smaller trees that can't be bored I couldn't see a problem with it, 1/2" rope would be my preference wrapped a dozen times , light to carry & if it does fail won't fly through the air & cause any harm, a barber chair is a release of energy in the wrong direction, one would think restraining that release of energy in the wrong direction has to be safer,

Sorta like wrapping the end of an axe handle. No harm no foul unless you were counting on it to work and it doesn’t. In other words, no added risk if it doesn’t work other than misplaced trust. It is that last part that has my attention since this strap technique was directed to those who don’t cut much. Being the consummate igmo that I am, in years past I have actually strapped a tree or two when cutting for lumber and found tightening to be problematic. Also my mind raced with how much stress will be created, can this thing handle it and if it doesn't how do I keep it from flying off or around and hitting me. Never used or considered it to be a safety measure. Never tried it on any under 24” thus my questions to 046 on just how he secures a small tree.

Thanks for giving your perspective.

Ron

 

[046]

046,

I am not trying to give you grief for the fun of it. I would not waste your time or mine doing that much less disrespect you in that manner. I post because most folks who don’t cut much don’t know how to make proper cuts. I won’t claim that I know or do. I also don’t know how you secure the strap you described to a small tree. The ones sold here have either a j hook or a clip. Due to the length of the tail and the ratchet mechanism, you have to have multiple wraps so you must spread the strap out (which creates slack if the wraps are moved). Add to the mix that the ratchet mechanism won’t lay flat due to its length and the potential for slack worsens. Add to that how you connect the ends and the potential grows some more. To some extent the same spreading is unavoidable on a large tree even where you can almost completely layer the strap on itself. The only way to avoid the built-in slack is a single wrap, a ratchet mechanism that lies flat against the tree for its entire length and a knotless connection. This is not just theoretical. These are real world facts.

To advocate to a person who doesn’t cut much to strap a small tree to prevent a barber chair is just reckless in my opinion particularly when the technique is not recognized by folks whose job is to help keep us safe. The recklessness is compounded when no meaningful instruction or guidance is provided - a recipe for someone to get hurt or killed.

Ron

not trying to give you grief ... but if someone after reading all my detailed posts and watching training videos .. cannot figure it out. they probably don't need to be cutting leaners at all and need to walk away.

again .. there's no accounting for stupid .. know when to walk away
be safe!

 

[northmanlogging]

Sorta like wrapping the end of an axe handle. No harm no foul unless you were counting on it to work and it doesn’t. In other words, no added risk if it doesn’t work other than misplaced trust. It is that last part that has my attention since this strap technique was directed to those who don’t cut much. Being the consummate igmo that I am, in years past I have actually strapped a tree or two when cutting for lumber and found tightening to be problematic. Also my mind raced with how much stress will be created, can this thing handle it and if it doesn't how do I keep it from flying off or around and hitting me. Never used or considered it to be a safety measure. Never tried it on any under 24” thus my questions to 046 on just how he secures a small tree.

Thanks for giving your perspective.

Ron

see, I felt the same way looking at a chain while making a back cut, thinking, that breaks, I die...

Then I watch one split and stretch the chain, it didn't break completely, but it was enough, haven't done it since

the rope, and ratchet strap where both done by other people, I hid and watched

 

[rwoods]

046, I think we all agree that unless you know proper cuts and can make them for leaners or other barber chair candidates, you don't need to be cutting them without an instructor standing by. The BC videos you posted were the best demonstration of the two principal methods that I have seen. I have used the "T" cut only a few times and, of course, I don't cut the species or height of trees addressed, but when I use a "T" I try to leave a hinge that is uniform unless I am trying to turn the tree. As illustrated by BC, a thicker nub was created on the right outside - presumably this makes a negligible difference on the falling direction of a typical big thick bark West Coast tree - I don't know.

As you said, be safe!

Ron

 

[Bwildered]

Sorta like wrapping the end of an axe handle. No harm no foul unless you were counting on it to work and it doesn’t. In other words, no added risk if it doesn’t work other than misplaced trust. It is that last part that has my attention since this strap technique was directed to those who don’t cut much. Being the consummate igmo that I am, in years past I have actually strapped a tree or two when cutting for lumber and found tightening to be problematic. Also my mind raced with how much stress will be created, can this thing handle it and if it doesn't how do I keep it from flying off or around and hitting me. Never used or considered it to be a safety measure. Never tried it on any under 24” thus my questions to 046 on just how he secures a small tree.

Thanks for giving your perspective.

Ron

I've got a split axe handle that's been held together for years with duct tape, just lately I broke the handle off where it goes into the head, rasped it to fit again & resined the head back on, maybe I'll get another couple of more years out of it.

 

[rwoods]

I have trouble with loose handles on an axe and a hatchet. Don't really want to soak them as they will just dry out again. Thinking of drilling and pinning my axe. What sort of resin do you use?

Ron

 

[Bwildered]

I have trouble with loose handles on an axe and a hatchet. Don't really want to soak them as they will just dry out again. Thinking of drilling and pinning my axe. What sort of resin do you use?

Ron

I just used polyester resin, I hope it won't be too brittle, I'm only using it because I've shortened the handle & there was big gaps to fill, normally I'll use a wedge that's been over dried in a microwave oven , they never move.

 

[rwoods]

Serious question, Bw - how long do you nuke the wedge? The hatchet is factory and I have given up beating the wood wedge tight. I have driven the small metal wedges deep beyond the surface - still doesn’t last.

The axe I hung. Tight but it slowly works the head forward so you have to watch it carefully. My little Husky axe uses a round metal pipe like piece driven into the wedge and handle. So far it has remained snug.

Ron

 

[ArtB]

What sort of resin do you use?

Ron

I use the epoxy used for setting rebar into drilled holes in concrete, has worked well for me. Decades ago tried boat resin (polyester) but that cracked to easily and heads came loose.
I drive the wood wedge into wet epoxy. Add metal wedge AFTER epoxy has cured.
Have done perhaps 20 axes, a few pitchforks/rakes/shovels, etc. like that, non have ever come loose.

 

[rwoods]

I use the epoxy used for setting rebar into drilled holes in concrete, has worked well for me. Decades ago tried boat resin (polyester) but that cracked to easily and heads came loose.
I drive the wood wedge into wet epoxy. Add metal wedge AFTER epoxy has cured.
Have done perhaps 20 axes, a few pitchforks/rakes/shovels, etc. like that, non have ever come loose.

Will have to give it a try. Thanks, Ron

 

[northmanlogging]

while we're at it, I've never used glue or epoxy on an axe head, never had a problem either, keep the wood dry both the wedge and the handle before assembly, fit it snug to begin with, carefully tap in the wedge, then cross it up with a steel wedge or 2, most reputable hardware stores sell the little steel wedges, right next to the handles... or reuse the old one if you can find it.


well thats not entirely true, the step drunk had me put a fiberglass handle in one when I was a kid, it failed but from abuse more than anything (the step drunk was illiterate... and my brothers aren't much better... so it came down to the kid what could read directions)

 

[Bwildered]

Serious question, Bw - how long do you nuke the wedge? The hatchet is factory and I have given up beating the wood wedge tight. I have driven the small metal wedges deep beyond the surface - still doesn’t last.

The axe I hung. Tight but it slowly works the head forward so you have to watch it carefully. My little Husky axe uses a round metal pipe like piece driven into the wedge and handle. So far it has remained snug.

Ron

I’ll cook it on low setting until I can smell it starting to burn & it’s easy to set one on fire, I have an old microwave in my workshop for testing KD samples that come out of my kiln.
Crap axe heads that don’t have the correct internal flair to the wedge end will never hold a handle with just a wedge

 

[rwoods]

The axe is an old rafting pattern 5# Plumb so the head shouldn't be a problem. As I said I hung it so that pretty much narrows the fault down. The hatchet is a 40 year old Collins that I keep close to the wood stove. I'm sure the proximity to the stove doesn't help. Both have the little metal wedges. I will probably try the epoxy Art suggested.

Ron

 

[madhatte]

If a handle comes loose, I always pull the whole thing apart and re-handle it, even if I might re-use the same wood. If it doesn't fit any more due to shrinkage, it's not a lot of work to make it fit again.

 

[rwoods]

If a handle comes loose, I always pull the whole thing apart and re-handle it, even if I might re-use the same wood. If it doesn't fit any more due to shrinkage, it's not a lot of work to make it fit again.

That is what I expect to do. I was only planning to use the epoxy on the wedge. I would hazard to guess that in wet climates drying out is less of a problem. Ron