Beautiful Topping

[pdqdl]

Why hate the silver maples? I make a good percentage of my living off them.

There are lots of trees worse than silver maples. Rapid growing trees generally are more prone to weaker wood. Sometimes a property owner wants a rapidly growing tree. Silver maple is an excellent choice.

I wouldn't even begin to put silver maple in the same undesirable league as Ailanthus, cottonwood, or some others that are sturdier, but have far worse traits. Thorny honey locust comes to mind...

 

[treevet]

Why hate the silver maples? I make a good percentage of my living off them.

There are lots of trees worse than silver maples. Rapid growing trees generally are more prone to weaker wood. Sometimes a property owner wants a rapidly growing tree. Silver maple is an excellent choice.

I wouldn't even begin to put silver maple in the same undesirable league as Ailanthus, cottonwood, or some others that are sturdier, but have far worse traits. Thorny honey locust comes to mind...

A property owner should never plant a Silver maple nearby a building or where people frequent. Silver maple is always a poor choice not an excellent choice in this instance.

I would put the Silv. maple in the same (exact) league as Ailanthus, Cottonwood or whatever else you have on your mind. Honey locust....a great tree, in the thornless cultivar.

If you are making a good percentage of your living off of them you are likely topping, removing storm damage from or removing them. Silver maples are usually found in lower end neighborhoods.

 

[teamtree]

JPS....I understand what you are saying but when you look at say the tree population (yard trees) in our largest town......Silver Maples make up close to 30% of the trees. Very rarely due they grow with perfect structure, many with co-dominant leaders and poor limb structure. I have seen far more damage in Silver Maples than other trees in our area, like Pin Oaks, White Oaks, Sugar Maples, Ash, Hickory and Walnut. I may be proven wrong in some scientific experience but I will stick with my experience and let nature be my guide for knowledge.

On top of that, when 75% of all yard trees are topped, the failure rate in Silver Maples is even greater.

Going back to my point from an earlier post, doing a rehab on a tree that has been topped 10 years before, is pretty like setting yourself up for failure. Yes, if the customer calls 2 or 3 years after a topping, that is a great time to start a rehab....but not 10 years after.

 

[teamtree]

I don't understand why people hate silver maples??? The idea that they are weak and brake up more then other species is BS, in my experiance it is only those that are butchered that have a lot of problems.

As for needing a lot of early training, that is any tree. I've been in many hard maples that are junk because there was no early care.

Maybe hate is a strong word. For me, they are one of my least favorite because they seem harder to prune than other trees. At the same time, since they are so abundant, we see more damage in them. I may be off base but I never said my opinions were worth much.

Yes all trees need structural pruning at a young age.

Silver Maples seem to develop multiple leaders and by the time we get a call they are too old to start pruning for structure...especially if you have to remove a 12" diameter leader.

This is why I am starting a campaign for our company to plant more trees and get clients on a annual maintenance contract so we can control the trees structure.

 

[pdqdl]

...
If you are making a good percentage of your living off of them you are likely topping [rarely], removing storm damage from [YES] or removing them [YES] . Silver maples are usually found in lower end neighborhoods.

In KC, silver maples are found everywhere. I suspect you are right about the lower end neighborhoods, as they are a preferred tree by builders for their rapid growth and price to install. If I had to top a tree, it would be a silver maple or a siberian elm. You practically can't kill either variety with a chainsaw. I don't think I have ever sold or planted one; I certainly have never planted a siberian elm.

Watch out with that "topping" shotgun you just pointed at me. I think my company has topped 4 trees for two customers in the last 10 years. Sometimes you just can't talk them out of it.

Two of them were last year; siberian elms. They are positively hideous now, and we even had the customer talked into doing proper trimming. Then they decided that butchery was better. They even paid a higher price to get what they wanted.

 

[treevet]

I don't hate silver maples and I don't hate rats either....they are just not appropriate for urban plantings near targets.

Here's a study for you from TREE PATHOLOGY, A Short Introduction, Smith, page 39

Table IX...Susceptibility of Trees to Breaking By Ice Accumulation

Approx 40 species were listed in this study (From Croxton. Reproduced by permission of the Ecological Society of America)...

117 Silver maples were examined 68% were found to be badly broken

102 Sugar maples were examined 33% were found to be badly broken

Only 4 other species (out of 40) had more badly broken percentage than the Silv. maple. They were Salix babylonica, Betula alba, and Betula lutea at 100% (there were only a few of these) and Ulmus americana at 84%

Populus deltoides was at 50 % were found to be badly broken

This is an Eastern cottonwood. Ailanthus was not included.

 

[pdqdl]

Hmmm...

I don't hate silver maples and I don't hate rats either....they are just not appropriate for urban plantings near targets...

I can't argue with that statement.

If you only consider the reference you cited, American Elm is an undesirable shade tree.

While I don't consider them to be a shade tree in our area, paper birch are also valued landscape additions; although there are not many in our area.

I suspect that your source may have a flawed conclusion, based on a limited sample size or some other error. Except for their problems with disease, I consider American Elm to be an excellent shade tree, as did the rest of the country prior to Dutch elm disease.

I suspect that Ailanthus was not included because everybody knows how nasty those trees are. Messy, hugely prolific, dangerous to work in, and break and fall unpredictably.

Just out of curiosity; what were the top five trees that the study approved of?

 

[outofmytree]

I don't hate silver maples and I don't hate rats either....they are just not appropriate for urban plantings near targets.

Here's a study for you from TREE PATHOLOGY, A Short Introduction, Smith, page 39

Table IX...Susceptibility of Trees to Breaking By Ice Accumulation

Approx 40 species were listed in this study (From Croxton. Reproduced by permission of the Ecological Society of America)...

117 Silver maples were examined 68% were found to be badly broken

102 Sugar maples were examined 33% were found to be badly broken

Only 4 other species (out of 40) had more badly broken percentage than the Silv. maple. They were Salix babylonica, Betula alba, and Betula lutea at 100% (there were only a few of these) and Ulmus americana at 84%

Populus deltoides was at 50 % were found to be badly broken

This is an Eastern cottonwood. Ailanthus was not included.

How dare you bring facts to an emotional debate!! Shame on you!!

Joking aside. We have our share of undesirable species here too. For different reasons obviously as we have no frost let alone snow but I am sort of in your camp Dave. That is I would rather remove and replace than continuously prune a species unsuitable to a given area.

On the other hand what would I know. I live in a country where no one but girlies wear pads when playing football.

 

[treevet]

Hmmm...

I suspect that your source may have a flawed conclusion, based on a limited sample size or some other error. Except for their problems with disease, I consider American Elm to be an excellent shade tree, as did the rest of the country prior to Dutch elm disease.

There is no "flawed conclusion".....there is no conclusion. It is just data, hard facts from a study.

American elm is one of the fastest growing trees in the country. Also their cascading form would likely contribute to breakage along with the ice.

I suspect that Ailanthus was not included because everybody knows how nasty those trees are. Messy, hugely prolific, dangerous to work in, and break and fall unpredictably.

There may not have been any Tree of Heaven in the area too.

 

[pdqdl]

I didn't think there was anyplace Ailanthus would not grow. I wouldn't be surprised to find them crowding out the date palms at an oasis in the middle of the Sahara desert.

 

[pdqdl]

At last! Something Ailanthus is good for:

Inspired by my last post to discover where these weed trees do not grow, I came across this lovely (and commercially valuable) silkworm. Apparently, the sole host for this creature is the much dreaded Ailanthus tree:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailanthus_silkmoth

Has anyone ever seen one of these moths?

 

[treevet]

That is true. I have seen them grow in some strange inner city places.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If you are making a good percentage of your living off of them you are likely topping, removing storm damage from or removing them. Silver maples are usually found in lower end neighborhoods.

I've never topped one, retopped two in twenty years, and have done thinning on hundreds; some i have returned to three or more times.

We find them in low, middle and high income areas. I think they get a bad rap because of how they have been abused in the past. I've removed many perfectly sound specimens because of this knee-jerk response to seeing one near a house. As you noted in Mathney decay is an issue, what was the history of the tree? You say they get topped often, i agree, there is a direct link. What was the past history of the tree, was it hacked, then repeatedly? A problem with limited, raw data.

Then there is the regional perspective, we have wind events here, very little snow/ice problems. Though my experiance with large ice and snow events you find it is more often structure that overall structure. If you have a spreading red oak, it will break off large sections. Like you say, it is the wide spreading nature of Ulums a. that makes it susceptible. Any tree with that form has problems, even bur oak, add in a few old pruning artifact/defects and 1/2 inch of ice is a killer.

Most large trees that have good structure can be maintained near a building in my region. I do have my list of species that I will not argue against removal, such as any Salix, IMO they are all fragilis

 

[treevet]

I've never topped one, retopped two in twenty years, and have done thinning on hundreds; some i have returned to three or more times.

Well we all probably agree on one thing. Silver maples get topped a lot.

But you think them getting topped causes defects and IMO they GET topped because they are prone to defect. It is not that they are poor comparmentalizers but rather because there is so much opportunity for pathogens with them always breaking up so much and the resultant taxing of their stores of energy and consequently their defense systems.

Another neg they have going against them is Silv. maples historically were the most planted tree under utility wires in the past and we all know what is going to happen to a tree in that location. Power of suggestion and the public carries that treatment into their yards.

 

[treeseer]

Originally Posted by treevet View Post

If you are making a good percentage of your living off of them you are likely topping, removing storm damage from or removing them. Silver maples are usually found in lower end neighborhoods."

false in WI, false in IN. I've worked on several there--no topping, no removals. Cabling, thinning, reduction and yes restoration after previous topping. All in middle to high end areas, none lower end.

Like the bradford pear, an excellent species, IF maintained well, but often it is not.

 

[treevet]

Originally Posted by treevet View Post

If you are making a good percentage of your living off of them you are likely topping, removing storm damage from or removing them. Silver maples are usually found in lower end neighborhoods."

false in WI, false in IN. I've worked on several there--no topping, no removals. Cabling, thinning, reduction and yes restoration after previous topping. All in middle to high end areas, none lower end.

Like the bradford pear, an excellent species, IF maintained well, but often it is not.

Sometimes I think you are from outer space.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Sometimes I think you are from outer space.

Sometimes he pines away for his Haight-Ashbury days.

Another neg they have going against them is Silv. maples historically were the most planted tree under utility wires in the past and we all know what is going to happen to a tree in that location. Power of suggestion and the public carries that treatment into their yards.

Since they are over represented in the population, and are chronically mistreated, they have artifacts from mistreatment that make them prone to failure. Yes, my observations are not empirical, but I have read studies that support my views. i just wish i kept a journal 15 years ago when i started learning.

 

[treevet]

We need more studies, more data being kept. No excuse with computers. They take a lot of the work out of it. College students would be great at it.

 

[treevet]

I have been planting a number of Autumn blaze maples which are a Silver maple based cultivar. They describe it as a stronger wooded tree that will not grow so much out of bounds like a Silver maple. So then they have recognized the inherent weakness of the Silv. maple and either they have made it stronger OR they are fearful that they will have trouble selling this showy fall colored (bright red) tree if the buyers think it is just another silver maple and are telling a fib.

We planted one in front of this house and I am counting it to make a big show as it matures (still relatively fast growing) and be the centerpiece of the view from the road in the fall.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I have been planting a number of Autumn blaze maples which are a Silver maple based cultivar.

A Freemanii, which are saccharinum x rubrum hybrid clonal cultivars. (some cultivatet varieties are seed source derived, not clonal)

I have seen some are marketed as "more upright" . This the first I've heard as strong wooded, that has to be a gimmick. Anecdotally, I do not see the the reds as any less likely to fail then silver.


Did i mention yet that Betula nigra is near 100% in snow/ice failure? In the past several storms I have visited I noticed a high correlation between stem diameter and stem angle. The closer to parallel the farther down the stem the tree broke. So the sections of clumps that were more upright faired better in the storms. It was so regular that I am sure that if i had time I could have expressed it mathematically.

If you are in ice/snow susceptible regions, tell your clients that clumps are probably temporary plantings.