Becoming and Arborist

[bigshea13]

I've seen the person who is only an expert with irrigation, supervise two pruning crews at a campus by sending out pruning experts, and listing the areas that need pruning (based off input of course).



what does that story have to do with wether or not an arborist should be able to climb and use a saw. i know a guy whos was only a governor and now hes in charge of the country and every dept that goes with it. if you hire your work out your only as good as the men you have working for you. lucky for the guy you know those pruning experts did him well. if they would have done something wrong and the job went bad would you still have given credit of the job misfortune to the guy you know. I know alota educated idiots.
no..arborist arent doctors but they sure as hell arent irrigators either.
seriously....how much weight would an arborists opinion carry with you if he was unable or unwilling to crawl up in your tree to get a better look.
I sicka arguing this one. its rediculous. your only 1/2 an arborist at best if you dont climb or unable to use a saw.

 

[treeseer]

bigshea you got a point about climbers being needed for aerial inspections.

Old Chip, about your question for the listing of arborists in Ga, you probably have to pay for that advertising, its all about the money, as others have said.

We interrupt this group rant to debunk yet another delusion. Read my sig below. The listing is currently free, and may well stay that way if enough CA's speak up about it. If that fails and they do charge later, so be it. They cannot stay in existence if they lose money, and I want ISA to exist.

Delusion #2 , the "million dollar professors who don't know what they are writing about." That's whack--no one would publish, never mind buy books with a lot of misinformation. And their salaries are not that high.

20 or 30 years ago I used to think climbing was way cool, and other climbers were special people. :welcome: Now climbing is just a means to the end of tree care, arboriculture. Trust me, you self-defined pack, the rush will fade after a while and your body will age you out of the saddle, and then where will you be?

If climbing and cutting is all that makes an arborist, then we are just loggers who get vertical. When I climb tomorrow I'll enjoy it, but it will not define me or my work. Way too narrow.

A living tree is a symphony, and it needs many musicians to keep its instruments in harmony. Climbing and cutting are like the strings; essential, but so are the woodwinds and the percussion. And without the conductor, music would not happen.

:rockn:

Same with rock music--the lead guitarist might think he's king, but without bass and drums he would go nowhere. And without a songwriter, he'd have nothing to play.

 

[clearance]

We interrupt this group rant to debunk yet another delusion. Read my sig below. The listing is currently free So, I stand corrected, there at least.

A living tree is a symphony, and it needs many musicians to keep its instruments in harmony. Climbing and cutting are like the strings; essential, but so are the woodwinds and the percussion. And without the conductor, music would not happen.

Good God, what have we here? I have climbed lots of trees that have lived and are still living now. Didn't need no musicians to accompany me, didn't need no conductor who couldn't play an instrument either. I just got up there, did what I had to do and next tree, all the way down the line. All by my little self.

Treeseer is trying to intellectualize this talk, nice try, it ain't rocket science. And if it was, could a rocket scientist climb trees? Probably as much as the non working arborists out there. But then again, being a rocket scientist he probably wouldn't tell me how to climb, just like I wouldn't tell him how to build rockets. Why, cause I have never done it.

A few points illustrate Treeseers mindset, "I used to think climbing was way cool" And "then we are just loggers who get vertical" Kind of shows his contempt for climbers, and loggers. Easy to see where young non working arborists get attitude.
The ones that direct, after all, are the conductors-'scuse me while I go barf.

 

[ropensaddle]

bigshea you got a point about climbers being needed for aerial inspections.

We interrupt this group rant to debunk yet another delusion. Read my sig below. The listing is currently free, and may well stay that way if enough CA's speak up about it. If that fails and they do charge later, so be it. They cannot stay in existence if they lose money, and I want ISA to exist.

Delusion #2 , the "million dollar professors who don't know what they are writing about." That's whack--no one would publish, never mind buy books with a lot of misinformation. And their salaries are not that high.

20 or 30 years ago I used to think climbing was way cool, and other climbers were special people. :welcome: Now climbing is just a means to the end of tree care, arboriculture. Trust me, you self-defined pack, the rush will fade after a while and your body will age you out of the saddle, and then where will you be?

If climbing and cutting is all that makes an arborist, then we are just loggers who get vertical. When I climb tomorrow I'll enjoy it, but it will not define me or my work. Way too narrow.

A living tree is a symphony, and it needs many musicians to keep its instruments in harmony. Climbing and cutting are like the strings; essential, but so are the woodwinds and the percussion. And without the conductor, music would not happen.

:rockn:

Same with rock music--the lead guitarist might think he's king, but without bass and drums he would go nowhere. And without a songwriter, he'd have nothing to play.

Ahhhhhh but then steps in the critic, Have you not listed to beck,
or some of the other soloists? Anyway comparing tree work to
symphony or music is lame. I understand some of your points
arborists,must rely on lab work,and climbers a good groundman!
I feel if you have not climbed pick a different path. Lot to learn
in the saddle that is not in them books. You will have a better
understanding of what you are asking others to perform! I do
understand that many scientists in arboculture have never
climbed and contributed great things by not doing so! I am with
clearance on twenty year old school boys got no business supervising
men. I applied for a position over line clearance in a coop I worked many
years for, lost out to a grass mower with two year degree and
cert! I have now quit,I ask is a employee of many years service
trumped by a youngster with these credentials? He has been there
for two years now and most of the good help quit. This is why I
have a bad taste toward corporations, nepotism, poor management
practice and waste. I as a manager would have hired the long term
employee,schooled him and turned him into a moral booster. The
truth is, on paper what may be today viewed as bad management
practice ie hiring someone for a position without college actually
is just the opposite! If the long term employee is willing to school
to learn the things necessary to manage the opportunity should
go to him, he deserved that chance. The money and men I would
have saved in turnover the first year, would have been cost effective
to this company. Veterans of lengthy employment know the men
better than any school boy out there,they know their needs desires
and defects. Who better to manage them than someone that knows.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Treeseer is trying to intellectualize this talk, nice try, it ain't rocket science. And if it was, could a rocket scientist climb trees? Probably as much as the non working arborists out there. But then again, being a rocket scientist he probably wouldn't tell me how to climb, just like I wouldn't tell him how to build rockets. Why, cause I have never done it.

I don't know about you, but it's like rocket science to me.

After reading your posts today, I could picture you trying to convince a bunch of US Marines, that when someone like a past General Lewis B. Puller shifted roles to being driven in a Jeep accompanied by a body gaurd, that he became less competent to command and manage troops and combat operations of his division.

For some reason, the principles of how veterens in any trade can advance into management with success, seems to work across-the-board, except in the minds of a handful of climbing arborists.

Of course I could be misreading your posts, that's the impression I'm getting as pertains to management in general. Because I don't think what we do for a living excludes us very much.

ropeandsaddle...

I'm not sure how you, I or Treeseer view trees compared to music, but I can explain my view of it.

About 10 years ago, I wrote an article called the "fine art of pruning" putting into perspective that when pruning is performed at the most intricate levels of skill and understanding, it can be as much a fine art as fine painting and music.

People have told me that I've removed "oppression" from their landscaping before. And one lady said her nurseryman friend visited her house and stood in awe at her Japanese black pine I pruned one day. And those are just a couple of many.

I mean, even in turf care, one other greenskeeper and I were able to control golfers without signs or being present, by detailing sand bunkers so intricately, as to be nicer than those of any other country club around Portland. And we ascertain that - golfing those clubs. At the city course, there were 2 to 3 trails of footprints left in EVERY sand trap, every weekday. After we dialed-in the bunkers, we could come back after a weekend leave, and find only 4 to 5 trails of footprints in all the sand traps combined. Something like a 2500% decrease. And that's just sand traps.

As far as trees, I think it can be comparable to a fine art, when an arborist understands how auxins are going to function in a tree, and utilizes the effects of it through careful selection and retention of leaders.

Leaders in trees can be selected and trained to lead and direct a tree, in fashion that can be likened to how the management leaders can lead a corporation in a specific direction with specific goals in mind.

There are some arborists that can visualize what's occuring in a tree, and how to manipulate it. And when they can manipulated trees so as to affect people's emotions, relaxation and pleasure, we're talking about a a fine art. That level of pruning does not occur by just routine dead-wood removal, crown raising and typical thinning.

 

[ropensaddle]

I don't know about you, but it's like rocket science to me.

After reading your posts today, I could picture you trying to convince a bunch of US Marines, that when someone like a past General Lewis B. Puller shifted roles to being driven in a Jeep accompanied by a body gaurd, that he became less competent to command and manage troops and combat operations of his division.

For some reason, the principles of how veterens in any trade can advance into management with success, seems to work across-the-board, except in the minds of a handful of climbing arborists.

Of course I could be misreading your posts, that's the impression I'm getting as pertains to management in general. Because I don't think what we do for a living excludes us very much.

If we had three Pattons we would be done with this confounded war!

 

[clearance]

I don't know about you, but it's like rocket science to me.

After reading your posts today, I could picture you trying to convince a bunch of US Marines, that when someone like a past General Lewis B. Puller shifted roles to being driven in a Jeep accompanied by a body gaurd, that he became less competent to command and manage troops and combat operations of his division.

For some reason, the principles of how veterens in any trade can advance into management with success, seems to work across-the-board, except in the minds of a handful of climbing arborists.

Of course I could be misreading your posts, that's the impression I'm getting as pertains to management in general. Because I don't think what we do for a living excludes us very much.

M.D. I am going to ask you, yet again, should non climbing arborists, who have never climbed, tell experienced men how to climb?

 

[M.D. Vaden]

M.D. I am going to ask you, yet again, should non climbing arborists, who have never climbed, tell experienced men how to climb?

Not in general, unless they happen to be right about a bit of advice. And that's about how to "climb".

But they can supervise them for arboriculture. And as far as how the technique occurs with the gear and ropes and stuff, I figure that a good climber can be trusted to implement that aspect himself.

That's why I think a competent arborist with a lot of experience, who has never climbed, can hold a lead management position if he or she has the greatest reserve of knowledge pertaining to tree heath. There should be no problem with them having an assistant manager lead professional that can totally handle the facet of supervising the climbing and equipment operations.

Likewise, the same managing arborist can hire a competent arborist who has extensive experience with spraying and injection, to supervise and coordinate the pesticide operations and selection of application equipment, and safety gear.

Likewise, the same manageing arborist can hire a competent CA whose specialty is tree planting, tree spades and tree establishement, including structural soils, soil blending, root control, etc..

Likewise, the same managing arborist can hire a competent CA who is highly adept at tree and disease identification to identify, measure and record trees, including notation of pests and problems.

Likewise, the same managing arborist can hire another competent CA with exceptional skills at cabling and bracing.

It's assembling the Best of the Best. And it can be managed.

 

[clearance]

Thats a grudging admission, but not good enough. How can they be right about how to climb, never having done it? And if they are the supervisor, as you advocate, can they order a climber, are there penatlies for disobeying the arborist? What about the arborist telling the climber how to cut down trees around powerlines, can they "make" the climber do thier bidding?

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Thats a grudging admission, but not good enough. How can they be right about how to climb, never having done it? And if they are the supervisor, as you advocate, can they order a climber, are there penatlies for disobeying the arborist? What about the arborist telling the climber how to cut down trees around powerlines, can they "make" the climber do thier bidding?

Delegation.

I hire different CA climbing arborists myself. I don't tell them how to climb - they already take care of continued training themselves. All I have to do is coordinate what trees I need done, and when.

They know what to do when they get up there.

I don't work with any powerline stuff, but if I did, the simplicity of it is to hire the person who is qualified.

 

[ropensaddle]

Delegation.

I hire different CA climbing arborists myself. I don't tell them how to climb - they already take care of continued training themselves. All I have to do is coordinate what trees I need done, and when.

They know what to do when they get up there.

I don't work with any powerline stuff, but if I did, the simplicity of it is to hire the person who is qualified.

Would you agree someone who has climbed many years that takes
steps to get certified would be a better asset, than one that has not
climbed and put in the time? Understanding the growth hormone auxin
as it relates to tree growth, apical dominance , phototrophism as they
relate to pruning, and especially training young trees is important I agree.
What of twenty years in canopy? Should it not pay more or carry
more clout?

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Would you agree someone who has climbed many years that takes
steps to get certified would be a better asset, than one that has not
climbed and put in the time? Understanding the growth hormone auxin
as it relates to tree growth, apical dominance , phototrophism as they
relate to pruning, and especially training young trees is important I agree.
What of twenty years in canopy? Should it not pay more or carry
more clout?

If the head knowledge about trees specifically was EQUAL, and one had a lot more climbing experience, the climber would have an advantage.If the non-climber had also put in the years experience-wise and been working with climbing arborists, the gap between them starts to become a bit more inconsequential.

I wouldn't even bother to consider an arborist for lead position if they hadn't put in the years, whether they climbed or not.

Here's one for you...

How about the arborist that is a Certified Landscape Technician on top of being a Certified Arborist - who is worth more pay and responsibility?

Which one is most likely to understand the effects of big trees on turf and landscaping, such as what is at risk to sunburn and what is not when it comes to limb or tree removal?

Quite a few CAs that climb have taken the ISA test for tree ID. How many can pass twice that much testing for other plants and shrubs, and have knowledge of their needs in relation to being near trees?

Some climbing arborists tend try to keep the discussion on the two lane highway of arborist + climbing. As opposed to comprehensive horticultural knowledge, of which arboriculture is one fragment. Full scale horticultural arboriculture within the entire landscape, is more like an 8 lane highway.

Really, who cares if we know how to climb or how to prune this tree or that tree? That's not really arboriculture. Arboriculture is not just trees, but coordinating tree growth and the effects of trees within entire landscaped yards and gardens.

So if an arborist only knows trees and climbing, they are still in some stage of puberty in true horticultural arboriculture. Let them understand the entire landscape, then they can earn the right to beat their chest a bit more

 

[ropensaddle]

If the head knowledge about trees specifically was EQUAL, and one had a lot more climbing experience, the climber would have an advantage.

If the non-climber had also put in the years experience-wise and been working with climbing arborists, the gap between them starts to become a bit more inconsequential.

Here's one for you...

How about the arborist that is a Certified Landscape Technician on top of being a Certified Arborist - who is worth more pay and responsibility?

Which one is most likely to understand the effects of big trees on turf and landscaping, such as what is at risk to sunburn and what is not when it comes to limb or tree removal?

Most CAs that climb have taken the ISA test for tree ID. How many can pass twice that much testing for other plants and shrubs, and have knowledge of their needs for light, or how brittle they are when working around them?

Some climbing arborists tend try to keep the discussion on the two lane highway of arborist + climbing. As opposed to comprehensive horticultural knowledge, of which arboriculture is one fragment.

Really, who cares if you know how to climb or how to prune this tree or that tree?

That's not really arboriculture.

Arboriculture is not just trees, but coordinating tree growth and the effects of trees within entire landscaped yards and gardens.

So if an arborist only knows trees and climbing, they are still just between toddler and puberty in true horticultural arboriculture. Let them start to master understanding the entire landscape, then they can earn the right to beat their chest.

I guess I am mistaken about arborist knowing about trees in landscape
and how consideration of the whole environment is what phc is all about.
If pruning and climbing is not arboculture then why is it in the study?
I have been preparing for nothing,may as well be a hack! This is some
mentality, all the knowledge in every book in horticulture does no good
unless someone performs the work. It seems we have a two blade edge
or in Indian a forked tounge,horticulturists is the only one qualified to
govern phc so maybe they should be the ones doing the work.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I guess I am mistaken about arborist knowing about trees in landscape
and how consideration of the whole environment is what phc is all about.
If pruning and climbing is not arboculture then why is it in the study?
I have been preparing for nothing,may as well be a hack! This is some
mentality, all the knowledge in every book in horticulture does no good
unless someone performs the work. It seems we have a two blade edge
or in Indian a forked tounge,horticulturists is the only one qualified to
govern phc so maybe they should be the ones doing the work.

Arborists can do a lot of good with just tree knowledge.

It's just that they become better when understanding more than that.

Trees, for example, can affect how much red thread fungus get into turfgrass. Does that seem relevant to you?

Between Loropetalum and New Zealand Flax, which one is more likely to be harmed by removal of limbs that increases exposure to sun, and which one may flourish with the extra sun?

This introduces the aspect of how much to remove and when, whether or not to postpone removals until autumn or winter if the wait does not compromise safety, and whether or not other plants need protection.

On the other hand, if 95% of the trees which the arborist will work on are street trees with no landscaping or other plants nearby, the need for extra plant knowledge is far less relevant.

If shrubs come into play, in many cases the damage is not like ultra-devastating, but the results could have been a lot better. Sometimes the damage is significant, but commonly, the damage is more along the lines of unsightly plants for a year or two.

First one that comes to mind, was 3 birches removed in a yard in front of the house, causing sunburn to all the shrubs beneath it, slightly behind, and slightly north.

And the homeowners told me they were in no hurry, and could easily have waited to have the arborist come in autumn instead. But too late.

Probably knew his trees and meant well, but didn't know his shrubs and that the ones there would get burned worse than usual.

 

[ropensaddle]

Arborists can do a lot of good with just tree knowledge.

It's just that they become better when understanding more than that.

Trees, for example, can affect how much red thread fungus get into turfgrass. Does that seem relevant to you?

Between Loropetalum and New Zealand Flax, which one is more likely to be harmed by removal of limbs that increases exposure to sun, and which one may flourish with the extra sun?

This introduces the aspect of how much to remove and when, whether or not to postpone removals until autumn or winter if the wait does not compromise safety, and whether or not other plants need protection.

On the other hand, if 95% of the trees which the arborist will work on are street trees with no landscaping or other plants nearby, the need for extra plant knowledge is far less relevant.

If shrubs come into play, in many cases the damage is not like ultra-devastating, but the results could have been a lot better. Sometimes the damage is significant, but commonly, the damage is more along the lines of unsightly plants for a year or two.

First one that comes to mind, was 3 birches removed in a yard in front of the house, causing sunburn to all the shrubs beneath it, slightly behind, and slightly north.

And the homeowners told me they were in no hurry, and could easily have waited to have the arborist come in autumn instead. But too late.

Probably knew his trees and meant well, but didn't know his shrubs and that the ones there would get burned worse than usual.

Good point and it is in the principals of phc to consult with other
professionals to create common ground. No one has enough time
to know everything so coordination with landscape contractors
is necessary in good phc. That is different than what I am speaking
about and I admit to have barely scratched the surface in learning
the science end of horticulture! I will get there and am not interested
in beating my chest. I an more interested in doing a good job for my
clients and have referred them elsewhere when I don't or can't find
the correct solution. Is that not what arborist is supposed to be?

 

[treeseer]

ropen, sorry you missed out on the job--company's loss too. Get that ticket so you are ready next time. You must have the passion, if you are up at 3 a.m. talking about this stuff. I hope that passion extends to study so you pass!

beck the soloist still needed someone to make the guitar and the amp and write the music and record and publish and market and sell it so he can eat.

It ain't rocket science. It's harder! Trees interact with other living systems, as Mario alluded to, which makes them more complex than rockets.

There was once a book guy who came out and told arborists that they needed to quit using stuff they had been using for decades. Some arborists were not accepting this book guy's instructions. After all, he had never climbed!

The book guy was Alex Shigo.

The stuff was pruning paint.

:taped:

clearance I got no contempt for climbers; I will be one until someone pries my cold dead fingers from my rope and saw. But my body can't do 40 hrs/week anymore, so if I didn't learn something else I would be even poorer and crankier than I am now.

O and re your contempt for writers, having done both I gotta say that being a good writer is way more difficult and way way less common than being a good climber. Re your underinformed supervisors, maybe if you met them halfway by learning more about their expertise, they would respect your expertise more.

 

[lxt]

Delegation.

I hire different CA climbing arborists myself. I don't tell them how to climb - they already take care of continued training themselves. All I have to do is coordinate what trees I need done, and when.

They know what to do when they get up there.

I don't work with any powerline stuff, but if I did, the simplicity of it is to hire the person who is qualified.

You hire a different person(CA)? pertaining to the job at hand, sounds like a general contractor to me, not an Arborist!!

I read your posts & it seems to me all you care about is managing "the right person" cause you yourself are unable to perform the tasks that people unknowingly hire you for!! for people like you there should be a "Lab Arborist" certification, for people that dont wanna get dirty or just dont know how, what a shame!! Ill have to tell my carpenter buddies, you dont have to nail anything!!! just delegate some authority, "manage someone to nail"

Treeseer, I am a musician, I actually play an instrument, I practice as often as possible!! But I dont tell fellow musicians how to play their instruments!! your analogy is a joke!! Conductors read, write & play or have the ability to do such. Herein is the KEY difference!! they have done what it is they are managing(conducting).

as far as the book millionaires, well the dollar amount may be exagerated but I thought that would be appropriate & fitting as it relates in a way to the situation, ya know!! Arborists that cant or never did climb that think they are true Arborist, Now this is an exageration.

What ISA should do is make the certification more precise, instead of just adding different Certs.! for instance you have all these wonderful titles before the word Arborist, how bout stating on the cert. Non-climbing Arborist & for those that climb; Arborist/Tree climber specialist, that way the general public knows as well as the entity hiring the arborist!!

when someone hires an Arborist the thought is they are getting the whole package, the best the industry has to offer!! In a way I consider it fraud to advertise the Arborist logo when you are unable to perform a part of what should be & used to be a requirement. I bet if they put a Non-climber designation before the Arborist title people would find no need for you to serve them in the tree care field!!

If your whole thing is theres more to trees than climbing, your right! but become a Horticulturist, Biologist or a Botanist not an Arborist! If you want to manage people get a Degree in business Management, my thoughts are you are the ones who dont understand, you want your "Title" as an Arborist to cover & include these fields, because you couldnt obtain the proper Title.

LXT.................

 

[OTG BOSTON]

If you think that a Certified Arborist cannot manage from the ground, like for a city like Los Angeles or Boston, without him or her being a skilled climber, there is a logic dilemna.

So true. However, my two predecessors were not as "hands on" as I am. I have been at this job for longer than both of them put together.

I attribute my success to the respect of the people who work for me.
At any given time I will show up at a worksite with my climbing gear and proceed to prove why I DESERVE to be the boss (because I will never ask a subordinate to do something I won't do myself).

All this fighting back and forth is useless, If you are complaining about someone elses credentials or skills (or lack thereof) you have unresolved issues with yourself IMHO................

 

[lxt]

Funny OTG, you mention complaining about credentials, I dont want it to be a battle or anything!! But in todays world everyone wants to make a buck off the back of someone else!! & if they can get a piece of paper to help in this ignorance they will!! seen many like this!

If your doctors credentials are misleading or false, I bet you would complain!! My main beef is, the public views Arborists as the total package to tree care & the ISA even promotes or did untill they developed new Certs.

I deal with alot of CA`s, many have told me I should get my Cert. said I have very good knowledge & my continuing self educating attitude is a good thing, After explaining to them how I feel, surprising enough they agree!! funny how most of these guys were former climbers & still do climb on occasion.

The opposite can be said about those who dont/cant climb, these are the arrogant, I am better cause im Certified, book smart, wanting to MANAGE for the authority high it gives them types!! they are the reason a climbing standard should be part of the program, maybe it would Humble them a little!

LXT...............

 

[OTG BOSTON]

Funny OTG, you mention complaining about credentials, I dont want it to be a battle or anything!! But in todays world everyone wants to make a buck off the back of someone else!! & if they can get a piece of paper to help in this ignorance they will!! seen many like this!

If your doctors credentials are misleading or false, I bet you would complain!! My main beef is, the public views Arborists as the total package to tree care & the ISA even promotes or did untill they developed new Certs.

I deal with alot of CA`s, many have told me I should get my Cert. said I have very good knowledge & my continuing self educating attitude is a good thing, After explaining to them how I feel, surprising enough they agree!! funny how most of these guys were former climbers & still do climb on occasion.

The opposite can be said about those who dont/cant climb, these are the arrogant, I am better cause im Certified, book smart, wanting to MANAGE for the authority high it gives them types!! they are the reason a climbing standard should be part of the program, maybe it would Humble them a little!

LXT...............

Wow, you do have the worst case of climbermassiveegoitis I have ever seen!

Don't put down someone elses credentials EVER, it is just poor form. If you got yourself certified and then decided to crap on it, that would be a different story...........